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TOWN COUNCIL REGULAR[Town Council Work Session on August 10, 2026.]
WORK SESSION FOR MONDAY, AUGUST 10TH.SO ORDER, UM, MS. ONG, CAN WE DO A ROLL CALL? MAYOR RO HERE.
AND MS. AL, CAN YOU PLEASE JUST STATE, UM, YOUR REASONING AND WHERE YOU ARE? YES.
I'M JOINING FROM HOME IN, FROM ROYAL VIRGINIA DUE TO MEDICAL REASONS.
AND I DON'T THINK WE HAVE, IF IT'S A MEDICAL REASON, WE DON'T HAVE TO.
AND DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY OBJECTION TO MS. AL JOIN YOU ABOUT THAT? NO.
COUNCILWOMAN, DO MEDICAL PAIN HERE? COUNCILMAN INGRAM? HERE.
SO OUR FIRST ITEM IS THE APPALACHIAN TRAIL CONNECTOR UPDATE.
AND MR. PROCTOR'S HERE, I'M ASSUMING.
CAN I COME UP AND JOIN US WHILE YOU'RE WALKING FORWARD? I JUST WANNA SAY VICE MAYOR BIENAL.
'CAUSE I DIDN'T DO A VERY GOOD JOB AT THIS LAST WEEK WITH COUNCILMAN INGRAM.
IF AT ANY TIME YOU WANTED TO, UM, INTERJECT A QUESTION OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, PLEASE DO.
THANK YOU EVERYBODY FOR HAVING ME.
FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW ME, I AM THE CHAIR OF YOUR ADVISORY COMMITTEE FOR ENVIRONMENTAL SUSTAINABILITY.
UM, AND I WAS INVITED HERE TONIGHT TO UPDATE YOU GUYS ON OUR AT CONNECTOR TRAIL PROJECT THAT YOU'VE BEEN WORKING ON HERE.
UM, YEAH, JUST A FEW, A LITTLE BIT OF BACKGROUND INFORMATION JUST TO GET US IN THE ACES MINDSET.
SO WE HAVE APPOINTED MEMBERS ON THIS COMMITTEE.
THAT'S SOMETHING, UH, RIGHT NOW WE HAVE MYSELF, HERSCHEL FINCH, CELESTE HORTON.
AND THEN WE'RE VERY FORTUNATE TO HAVE A LOT OF TOWN STAFF THAT HELPS SUPPORT THE COMMITTEE.
SO LIZZIE AND ALAN AND, AND JEAN AND ALL THIS CREW, WHICH WE'RE REALLY APPRECIATIVE OF.
AND THEN WE HAVE A BUNCH OF SUPPORTING MEMBERS THAT HAVE JOINED OVER THE YEARS THAT ARE HELPING WITH A BUNCH OF OTHER PROJECTS THAT WE DO.
ONE THING THAT WE ARE WORKING ON RIGHT NOW IS TRYING TO INCREASE OUR NUMBER OF APPOINTED MEMBERS.
THAT'S SOMETHING WE'RE WORKING WITH JOE AND THE TOWN ON RIGHT NOW TO GET SOME ADDITIONAL SKILL SETS ONTO THE TEAM.
BUT LOOKING GOOD, UM, AS A REMINDER OF, OF WHAT OUR, UH, OUR VISION AND OUR POKER PROJECTS ARE.
YOU KNOW, WE'RE VERY MUCH, UM, WE'VE BEEN GOING FOR FIVE YEARS NOW AND IT'S SOMETHING WHERE THIS COMMITTEE'S HAD A CHANCE TO EVOLVE BASED ON THE SKILL SETS IT HAS AND THE PEOPLE IT HAS ON IT, AND THE INTEREST IN DIFFERENT PROJECTS WE HAVE AROUND TOWN.
I THINK ONE OF THE BIG THINGS WE HIT THE GROUND RUNNING WITH WAS TRYING TO UNITE A LOT OF THE OTHER CIVIC GROUPS THAT ARE DOING ENVIRONMENTAL WORK IN TOWN TO DO HIGHER IMPACT PROJECTS TOGETHER, TO COMBINE MONEY AND CAPACITY AND TO GET SOME REALLY GREAT THINGS GOING ON THE GROUND.
SO WE'VE BEEN WORKING A LOT WITH THE TREE STEWARDS.
WE'VE BEEN WORKING A LOT WITH EVERYTHING FROM KIWANIS AND ROTARY.
UH, THE BEAUTIFICATION COMMITTEE THAT'S NOW A PIECE OF, UH, THE TREE STEWARDS WE WORK CLOSELY WITH.
UM, AND, UH, OUR BIG PROJECTS OVER THE YEARS HAVE VERY MUCH BEEN FOCUSED ON GREENWAY TREES, HELPING GET TREES INTO PARKS, WORKING ON PARKS, PARK EQUIPMENT, UM, AND OF COURSE LONE PINE DAY, OUR FIFTH ANNUAL THIS PAST YEAR, WHICH WAS A REALLY, REALLY BIG SUCCESS.
WE'LL BE GOING INTO OUR SIXTH YEAR OF, OF HOSTING THE EARTH DAY CELEBRATION HERE IN FRONT ROYAL AND ALL SORTS OF OTHER PROJECTS, DARK SKIES, EVERYTHING YOU CAN THINK OF.
AND THEN OF COURSE, BEING ABLE TO OFFER FEEDBACK ON DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES THAT THIS TOWN IS FACING.
SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THE AT CONNECTOR TRAIL.
I WANTED TO GIVE YOU GUYS SOME UPDATES ON THIS AS A QUICK REMINDER.
THE BIG GOAL HERE, OF COURSE, THIS IS A THREE MILE TRAIL RUNNING FROM CHRYSLER ROAD ALL THE WAY TO THE AT CROSSING IN 5 22, WHICH IS ADJACENT TO THE SMITHSONIAN.
SO THE IDEA THERE IS THAT WE COULD CREATE A SAFE WAY FOR FOLKS ON THE AT OR IN OUR TOWN TO WALK BACK AND FORTH WITHOUT TOUCHING FOOT ON ROUTE 5 22, WHICH I THINK EVERYBODY HERE HAS DRIVEN ENOUGH TO KNOW IT'S A VERY UNSAFE CORRIDOR, RIGHT? UM, AND ALL THE OTHER PERKS THAT GO WITH THAT.
SO, AS A REMINDER, THIS IS THE APPALACHIAN TRAIL COMING VERY CLOSE TO FRONT ROYAL, BUT NOT ALL THE WAY TO FRONT ROYAL.
AND OF COURSE WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO CAPTURE ALL THOSE AMAZING FOLKS HIKING THIS TRAIL AND GET THEM INTO OUR TOWN, WHICHEVER WAY WE CAN.
UM, AND SO THE PROPOSED CONNECTOR TRAIL IS THIS STRETCH HERE.
IT IS A THREE MILE SEGMENT ON THE WEST SIDE OF ROUTE 5 22 THAT WE'VE SPENT THE LAST COUPLE YEARS MOVING FORWARD WITH.
UM, AS A REMINDER, THIS IS WHAT THAT PATH WOULD LOOK LIKE.
THIS IS A PEDESTRIAN ONLY PATH.
IT WOULD BE VERY SIMILAR TO THIS.
UM, KINDA LIKE DICKIE RIDGE TRAIL IF YOU HIKE DICKIE RIDGE TRAIL.
UM, PROBABLY A LITTLE WIDER IN SPOTS FOR SAFETY REASONS, BUT WE, SINCE WE'RE GONNA BE GOING THROUGH A SECTION OF SHENANDOAH NATIONAL PARK, THAT REALLY SETS THE BENCHMARK FOR WHAT WE CAN DO ON THAT TRAIL.
SO THEY ARE A NO BICYCLE, NO HORSE STANDARD, RIGHT? SO WE WOULD, WE WOULD DEFAULT TO THAT THROUGHOUT THE, UH, THE ENTIRE TRAIL.
WE DON'T HAVE TO GET INTO ALL THESE 'CAUSE I THINK WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THESE AS A COMMUNITY.
BUT, UH, EVERYTHING FROM TOURISM DOLLARS TO SAFER HIKERS COMING INTO OUR TOWN.
UM, COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT OPPORTUNITIES ON THIS TRAIL.
ALL THE DIFFERENT GROUPS THAT COULD INTERFACE WITH INTERPRETIVE SIGNAGE, TELLING THE HISTORY OF FRONT ROYAL AS YOU APPROACH OUR TOWN, ALL THESE GREAT THINGS.
WE HAVE A LOT OF STAKEHOLDERS INVOLVED.
THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT GROUPS THAT INTERFACE WITH THAT THREE MILE STRETCH.
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VDOT, THE SMITHSONIAN TO THE NATIONAL PARK TO THREE OR FOUR DIFFERENT PRIVATE LANDOWNER.UM, AND THEN OF COURSE THE TOWN OF FRONT ROYAL AND WARREN COUNTY.
SO A LOT OF FOLKS IN THE GAME, WHICH IS EXCITING, I THINK IS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO ALL COLLABORATE ON SOMETHING LIKE THIS.
TAKING YOU BACK TO EARLY 2024, THANK YOU TO ALL OF YOU FOR HELPING SUPPORT, UH, A BIG PIECE OF THE FORWARD MOVEMENT OF THIS TRAIL, WHICH WAS GETTING THAT FEASIBILITY STUDY DONE.
CAN THIS TRAIL BE DONE? AND IF IT CAN, CAN BE DONE, WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE AND HOW MUCH IS IT GONNA COST? THAT'S WHAT WE NEEDED.
WE NEEDED A FORMAL PLAN TO START WITH, RIGHT? AND TO GO FROM THERE.
SO THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT ALL HAPPENED BACK IN 2024, A COUPLE YEARS LATER.
IT TAKES TIME TO GET ONE OF THESE DONE.
THERE'S A LOT OF MOVING PARTS.
WE WORKED WITH IRONWOOD OUTDOORS WHO ARE OUT OF WARRENTON AND THE SAME FOLKS WHO DID THE TRAILS BEHIND THE HOSPITAL HERE AND DID A REALLY GOOD JOB WITH THOSE.
GREAT, GREAT TEAM TO WORK WITH.
UH, THEY COMPLETED THAT STUDY EARLIER THIS YEAR.
SO WE'VE BEEN GOING THROUGH THAT.
UM, JUST TO GIVE, AND YOU ALL SHOULD HAVE LINCOLN, IF YOU DON'T HAVE A LINK TO THE FULL FEASIBILITY STUDY, I CAN MAKE SURE YOU GET THAT.
UM, IT'S SOMETHING YOU WANNA LOOK THROUGH CLOSELY.
AND OF COURSE IT'S JUST A FIRST GLIMPSE AT WHAT THIS TRAIL CAN LOOK LIKE.
UM, BUT I JUST WANT TO GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF, OF THE DETAIL THEY HAVE ON THIS.
YOU KNOW, THEY, THIS, THIS COMPANY SCOPED OUT EXACTLY WHERE WE THINK WE WOULD WANT THE TRAIL.
THERE ARE OPTIONS, HOWEVER, AND YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THE DETAILS OF WHAT THIS WOULD LOOK LIKE, WHICH IS GREAT.
THEY BROKE IT DOWN INTO FIVE DIFFERENT SECTIONS.
WE'RE NOT GONNA GO THROUGH EACH SECTION.
BUT THE IDEA OF HOW TO GET FROM CHRYSLER ROAD OUT TO THAT CROSSING IN 5 22, WHERE THE TRAIL'S GONNA GO, HOW TO AVOID THE STEEPEST SPOT, HOW TO AVOID CLIFFS AND HAVING A TERRAFORM, HOW TO GET ACROSS HAPPY CREEK MULTIPLE TIMES.
THAT'S GONNA BE AN INTERESTING ONE.
UM, BUT A LOT OF COOL POTENTIAL HERE.
SO IT'S REALLY GREAT TO HAVE A PLAN MOVING FORWARD.
SO WHAT DID WE DO WITH THAT? SO WE'RE LIKE, OKAY, WELL WE HAVE OUR ACES COMMITTEE THAT'S HELPING OVERSEE THIS.
BUT YOU KNOW, OF COURSE WE'RE ALL VOLUNTEERS AND WE'VE GOT A LOT OF OTHER PROJECTS WITH ACES.
SO MY IDEA WAS, WELL, LET'S FORM A WORKING GROUP THAT'S JUST BEYOND ACES.
AND SO WE BROUGHT ON CHRIS ANDERSON FOR ALLIANCE OF THE SHENANDOAH VALLEY.
I HAVE A FEELING MANY OF YOU KNOW, CHRIS IS A, SHE'S A LOCAL ARTIST AND ALSO THE LIAISON FOR WARREN COUNTY, FOR THE ALLIANCE OF THE SHENANDOAH VALLEY BASED OUTTA NEW MARKET.
UM, WE HAVE JOHN CATHERINE RIN, WHO ARE A LONG TIME MEMBERS OF PATC.
WE HAVE PETER FLYNN OUT OF FRONT ROYAL MIKE LUMPKIN WITH, WITH UH, UH, WARREN AND FRONT ROYAL APPALACHIAN TRAIL COMMUNITY.
AND THEN WE ARE CONTINUING TO GROW THIS COMMITTEE TO BE ABLE TO DRIVE THIS FORWARD.
'CAUSE THIS IS GOING TO BE A GOOD AMOUNT OF WORK.
SO I HAVE MET WITH A COUPLE OF TRAIL, I'VE GONE TO A COUPLE TRAIL CONFERENCES AND MOST PEOPLE SAY FROM START TO FINISH ANY TRAIL, NO MATTER THE LENGTH IS ABOUT A 10 YEAR PROJECT.
I WAS REALLY HOPING TO DO IT IN TWO, BUT IT'S LOOKING LIKE 10.
UM, AND IT JUST TAKES TIME, RIGHT? THERE'S A LOT OF MOVING PIECES TO THIS, WHICH IS OKAY, WE WANT TO GET IT RIGHT.
UM, AND SO IT'S GREAT IS THAT WE HAVE A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT GROUPS HERE KIND OF COMING TOGETHER THINKING ABOUT THIS AND A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT SKILL SETS IN THE ROOM.
SO HERE'S SOME OF OUR CURRENT DISCUSSIONS.
WHAT THIS WORKING GROUP IS DISCUSSING.
ONE OF THE BIG ONES IS DECIDING ON A FISCAL AGENT AND FUNDING OPPORTUNITIES FOR THIS TRAIL.
SO WE NEED SOME ENTITY, RIGHT, TO BE THAT FISCAL AGENT.
'CAUSE WE NEED TO START APPLYING FOR GRANTS.
WE NEED TO APPLY FOR SOME MONEY.
THAT MONEY HAS TO COME INTO SOMEBODY.
SOMEBODY THEN HAS TO ADMINISTER THAT MONEY AND PAY IT OUT, RIGHT? SO WE HAVE BEEN HAVING THE CONVERSATION ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY FOR THE ALLIANCE OF THE SHENANDOAH VALLEY WHERE CHRIS ANDERSON SITS THAT HAS A PRESENCE IN WARREN COUNTY BEING A POTENTIAL POSSIBILITY.
WE'RE OPENING UP THAT CONVERSATION.
WE'VE BEEN TALKING TO SHENANDOAH NATIONAL PARK TRUST.
I THINK MANY OF YOU HAVE HAD A CHANCE TO INTERFACE WITH BETH MAZEL AND JESSICA AND THAT TEAM FANTASTIC.
WHO HAVE MORE AND MORE OF A PRESENCE IN FRONT ROW, WHICH IS FANTASTIC, BUT BASED OUTTA CHARLOTTESVILLE.
UM, TWO POSSIBILITIES FOR ORGANIZATIONS THAT MIGHT BE A GOOD FIT.
UM, WHAT SECTIONS OF THE TRAIL CAN CIVIC VOLUNTEER GROUPS TAKE ON? SO WE HAVE THIS FEASIBILITY STUDY FROM THIS COMPANY THAT ALSO BUILDS TRAILS, BUT THERE ARE SECTIONS OF THIS THAT WE COULD BUILD.
THERE ARE SECTIONS OF THIS THAT THE PATC COULD BUILD.
THERE'S SECTIONS THAT THE APPALACHIAN CONSERVATION CORPS COULD BUILD THAT TO REALLY LOWER THAT COST.
ENGAGE STUDENTS, ENGAGE ALL THESE DIFFERENT TYPES OF CIVIC GROUPS.
SO WE'RE REALLY LOOKING AT WHO CAN DO WHAT SECTION OF THE TRAIL BASED ON THE COMPLEXITY OF THE TRAIL.
YOU'RE BASICALLY JUST RAKING AWAY TO GO THROUGH OTHER SECTIONS.
YOU ARE ON THE SIDE OF A PRETTY STEEP SLOPE.
SO THERE'S A LOT OF WATER MANAGEMENT, THINGS LIKE THAT.
UM, THE OTHER BIG THING WE WANNA DO, AND STARTING WITH TONIGHT IS WHAT WE'RE STARTING TO DO IS PRESENT THIS FEASIBILITY STUDY TO KEY STAKEHOLDERS.
SO I REALLY NEED TO GET THIS INFORMATION IN FRONT OF EVERYBODY ELSE ALONG THAT TRAIL.
UM, I'M SETTING UP MEETINGS AGAIN WITH THE PRIVATE LANDOWNERS WHO OPENED THEIR PROPERTIES TO US TO DO A FEASIBILITY STUDY, WHICH WAS A REALLY BIG DEAL.
BUT OF COURSE THAT'S JUST A FEASIBILITY STUDY.
NOW WE START TALKING ABOUT WHAT WOULD A TRAIL ACTUALLY LOOK LIKE GOING ACROSS THEIR PROPERTY.
SO ON THAT NOTE, SOME OTHER THINGS THAT WE NEED TO BE DISCUSSING, UH, SUPPORT FROM A LAWYER.
THERE'S A LOT OF TECHNICALITIES HERE.
THERE'S A LOT THAT'S OUTSIDE OF MY WHEELHOUSE WHERE WE NEED SOME SUPPORT.
THAT'S EVERYTHING FROM NU TO WORKING WITH NEPA, RIGHT? WE'RE GOING THROUGH THE NATIONAL PARK RIGHT OF WAY EASEMENTS.
WE'RE CROSSING A LOT OF PROPERTIES HERE WHERE WE NEED A RIGHT OF WAY EASEMENT ON THESE PROPERTIES.
AND WE NEED TO PAY PEOPLE IDEALLY
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FOR THAT, FOR THAT LAND AS WELL.UM, AND THEN TO HELP GUIDE NEXT STEPS.
SO THAT'S SOMETHING I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE, UH, FURTHER CONVERSATION WITH THE TOWN, COUNTY, OTHER FOLKS INVOLVED WITH THIS PROJECT, UH, ABOUT TRYING TO GET A LITTLE BIT OF SUPPORT FROM, FROM A LAWYER, UH, WHO'S FAMILIAR WITH THESE TYPES OF SITUATIONS.
THE BIG COST TO THIS WHOLE TRAIL IS GETTING ACROSS HAPPY CREEK MULTIPLE TIMES.
UM, WHICH IS COOL BECAUSE WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT SOME FUN LITTLE BRIDGE WORK OVER HAPPY CREEK, YOU CAN IMAGINE THAT'D BE AN AMAZING PART OF THAT TRAIL TO BE ABLE TO STAND OVER TOP OF HAPPY CREEK AND AND REALLY ENJOY IT.
AND THERE'S SOME BEAUTIFUL SECTIONS OF THIS TRAIL, BUT GETTING ACROSS THE CREEK SAFELY, UM, IS EXPENSIVE.
FEMA, FLOODPLAIN, ALL OF THESE SORTS OF THINGS.
SO THERE'S ALL THESE LITTLE PIECES OF THIS TRAIL THAT YOU REALLY GOTTA DIG INTO.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO LOOK AT THE NUMBERS OF THIS, BUT I WANT YOU GUYS TO KNOW.
WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IS THE ORIGINAL COST ESTIMATES FROM IRONWOOD OUTDOORS.
OF COURSE THOSE ARE SUPER ROUGH.
IT'S ALSO GOLD STANDARD HEIGHT.
THEY PUT A MAXIMUM PRICE ON THE ENTIRE PROJECT AT 3.8 MILLION.
THAT IS, THAT IS LINED WITH GOLD.
UM, AND AND THAT'S GREAT 'CAUSE IT GIVES US A PRICE POINT TO WORK FROM.
SO WHAT WE'RE GOING THROUGH IS WE'RE LOOKING AT ALL THE DIFFERENT COSTS AND WE'RE SAYING WHERE CAN WE CUT SOME OF THOSE COSTS? NOT CUTTING SAFETY OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, BUT WHERE CAN WE TAKE ON SOME OF THE LABOR, SOME OF THE WORK WITH THESE CIVIC GROUPS? WHAT ARE SOME DIFFERENT BRIDGE OPTIONS, ET CETERA.
UM, SO THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SLOWLY GOING THROUGH RIGHT NOW AND TRYING TO GET UP KIND OF MIDDLE OF THE GROUND PRICE.
I'M, I'M GUESSING THIS PROJECT'S GONNA BE BETWEEN 1.5 AND 2 MILLION.
UM, BE GREAT IF WE CAN GET IT CHEAPER.
WE'RE GONNA SEE WHAT WE CAN DO.
UM, AND I JUST WANTED TO END ON THIS SLIDE.
THIS IS A SECTION OF THE TRAIL.
THIS IS ACTUALLY WHERE HAPPY CREEK IN FRONT OF YOU IS CONNECTING WITH SLOAN CREEK.
THIS WOULD BE A SPOT, FOR EXAMPLE, WHERE WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO A SIMPLE, VERY SIMPLE FOOT BRIDGE 'CAUSE IT'S LOW WATER THERE.
BUT I JUST WANT TO GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF THE SECTIONS OF LANDSCAPE THAT YOU'D BE WALKING THROUGH ON THIS, THIS TRAIL AS A WELCOME TO FRONT ROYAL.
AND THIS, I THINK, REALLY CAPTURES A GOOD PIECE OF THAT.
WE HAVE AN INCREDIBLE WATERSHED.
WE HAVE HAPPY CREEK RUNNING RIGHT THROUGH THE TOWN THAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHERE THE HEADWATERS OF THAT STREAM ARE AND HAVE NEVER HIKED THE HEADWATERS OF THAT STREAM.
AND I'LL TELL YOU, HARMONY HOLLOW, YOU FOLLOW THAT ALL THE WAY UP INTO THE NATIONAL PARK.
IT'S ONE OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WATERSHEDS WE HAVE IN SHENANDOAH NATIONAL PARK.
AND IT FLOWS RIGHT OUT IN FRONT ROYAL.
SO THAT'S SOMETHING WE WANT TO CAPTURE THE SPIRIT OF IS PEOPLE ARE HIKING THIS TRAIL, THEY'RE GONNA BE HIKING ALONG AND OVER HAPPY CREEK FOR THE MAJORITY OF IT.
SO I THINK IT'S A REALLY NEAT WELCOME TO OUR TOWN.
UM, SO I DON'T WANT TO GO OVER MY TIME, BUT I WANTED TO POINT OUT A COUPLE OTHER QUICK THINGS ON THE AGENDA, JUST SO FOLKS KNOW.
'CAUSE I'M IN FRONT OF YOU RIGHT NOW.
OTHER THINGS THAT ACES DOES, WE WORK ON IT ON, UH, DARK SKIES, FRIENDLY LIGHTING.
WE'RE THINKING A LOT THERE ABOUT WILDLIFE MOVEMENTS.
WE'RE THINKING ABOUT BEING TO SEE THE NIGHT SKY AGAIN.
SAFER STREETS DIRECTING LIGHT DOWNWARD.
WE ARE WELCOMING LAURA GREENLEAF.
WE'RE HELPING CO-HOST HER AT SAMUELS PUBLIC LIBRARY ON SEPTEMBER 10TH.
SHE IS OUR STATE'S, OUR VIRGINIA'S, UH, DARK SKIES LEADER.
I MEAN, SHE'S, SHE'S NUMBER ONE.
SHE KNOWS THE ISSUE THROUGH AND THROUGH.
SO THIS IS A GREAT, UH, THE WHOLE IDEA OF BRINGING HER HERE IS SO THAT WE CAN HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH HER AND ASK HER THE TOUGH QUESTION.
SHE'S GONNA GIVE A GREAT PRESENTATION, BUT WE'LL HAVE TIME BEFORE AND AFTER THE TALK FOR FOLKS WHO GO UP TO HER AND ASK ANY AND ALL QUESTIONS THAT WE HAVE AS WE START THINKING ABOUT HOW TO GO ABOUT MORE OF THIS IN FRONT.
I'VE BEEN ABLE TO SEE HER SPEAK BEFORE.
WE'RE VERY FORTUNATE TO HAVE HER COMING TO FRONT ROYAL AND A BUNCH OF THE OTHER LOCAL CIVIC GROUPS, INCLUDING, UH, SHENANDOAH NATIONAL PARK TRUST IS GONNA CO-HOST THIS.
UM, ONE LAST THING I WANTED TO PUT ON YOUR AGENDA IS WE DO NOW HAVE A SAVE THE DATE FOR THE NEXT LONE KIND DAY.
THAT IS SATURDAY APRIL 17TH, 2027.
SO IF THAT'S NOT ON YOUR CALENDARS, PLEASE PUT IT THERE.
THAT IS GOING TO BE OUR SIXTH ANNUAL, WHICH IS INCREDIBLE.
HERE'S THE REALLY COOL NEWS ABOUT THIS.
YOU MIGHT REMEMBER GETTING THIS NEWS LAST YEAR, BUT I WANNA MAKE SURE IT'S IN FRONT OF YOU THIS YEAR.
NOT ONLY IS THIS SOMETHING THAT'S BEING HOSTED BY THE TOWN OF FRONT ROYAL BY ACES, WHICH IS EXCITING, BUT LAST YEAR WE BROUGHT ON TWO OTHER MAJOR PARTNERS, THE SHADO NATIONAL PARK TRUST AND THE SMITHSONIAN TO CO-HOST THIS.
THIS IS A TRIFECTA OF AWESOME PARTNERS TO OVERSEE AN EARTH DAY CELEBRATION.
AND WE HAVE A COMMITTEE WITH FOLKS FROM ALL THREE OF THOSE, THOSE GROUPS THAT ARE HELPING STEER THIS FORWARD.
SO WITH THAT, UM, I'LL JUST SAY THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
YOU KNOW, CAN I OPEN IT UP TO QUESTIONS? OH, IS THAT WHAT I DO NEXT? I WASN'T SURE IF YOU DO THAT.
I MEAN, I CAN OPEN UP, BUT I WAS AFRAID YOU WERE GETTING READY TO WALK AWAY.
UH, UM, ANYTHING ON THE CONNECTED TRAIL? I'M GONNA HIT PAUSE.
THE FIRST ONE IS, YOU ORIGINALLY SAID SOMETHING LIKE, WE HAVE A COUPLE OPTIONS FOR THE TRAIL OR, OR SO.
I GUESS MY QUESTION IS, UM, IS THAT BECAUSE THERE'S SOME OPTIONS THAT ARE MORE EXPENSIVE THAN OTHERS, A DIFFERENT TERRAIN? IS THAT THE IDEA? IT'S BECAUSE WHEN THEY DID THE FEASIBILITY STUDY, THEY REALLY HAD TO MAP OUT A ROUTE TO START WITH, RIGHT? THEY HAD TO LITERALLY PLAN GPS COORDINATE BY GPS, COORDINATE A ROUTE.
THE GOOD NEWS IS THERE ARE, WE ARE CONSTRAINED IN SOME PLACES, LIKE BEHIND RAPON FOR EXAMPLE, IT GETS
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VERY TIGHT BACK THERE.UH, BUT AS YOU GET FARTHER SOUTH, UM, BY THE SMITHSONIAN, WE HAVE SOME ROOM TO PLAY, YOU KNOW, UH, AND I'M TALKING A HUNDRED METERS THAT DIRECTION VERSUS A HUNDRED METERS THIS DIRECTION.
THE LEFT AROUND SLOAN POND OR THE RIGHT AROUND SLOANE POND.
THERE'S OPTIONS IN DIFFERENT PLACES THAT COULD BECOME EASIER THAN OTHER OPTIONS FOR SURE.
SO FOR EXAMPLE, ANOTHER ONE IS IN THE NATIONAL PARK.
THERE'S ACTUALLY ALREADY A POWER LINE CUT THROUGH THE NATIONAL PARK.
IRONWOOD OUTDOORS DID NOT MAP THE TRAIL ONTO THAT, ONTO THAT, UH, RIGHT OF WAY THROUGH THE POWER LINE.
HOWEVER, IT IS VERY COMMON TO PUT A TRAIL ON AN ALREADY EXISTING RIGHT OF WAY WHERE A POWER LINE IS.
'CAUSE THEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO CREATE ANY DISTURBANCE.
WE DON'T HAVE TO TAKE DOWN ANY TREES.
IT'S ALREADY GONNA BE CLEARED BY WHO'S EVER MANAGING THAT POWER LINE.
UM, SO THERE'S OPTIONS LIKE THAT WHERE IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT AS PRETTY AS BEING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FOREST, BUT IF IT MEANS WE CAN GET THROUGH THIS, YOU KNOW, $500,000 LESS TO START AND IT'S STILL A BEAUTIFUL TRAIL, AND WE'RE FOLLOWING A POWER LINE FOR A COUPLE HUNDRED YARDS, AWESOME.
AND A AND A PARK MIGHT BE MORE OPEN TO THAT TOO, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT CREATING ANY ADDITIONAL DISTURBANCE INSIDE THE PARK, WHICH IS REALLY WHAT THEY'RE, THEY'RE FOCUSED ON.
SO THERE'S OPTIONS LIKE THAT THAT AREN'T GONNA BE TOTALLY CAPTURED IN THE FEASIBILITY STUDY, BUT THAT WE KNOW ARE OPTIONS.
JUSTIN, WHEN, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT, UM, CROSSING THE CREEK AND GOING ALONG THE CREEK, WOULD YOU KEEP THAT CROSSING ABOVE FLOOD LEVEL? EXACTLY.
AND THAT'S THE EXPENSIVE PART.
SO YOU CAN IMAGINE THE CREEK HAPPY CREEK FOR 11 MONTHS OF THE YEAR.
YOU CAN WALK ACROSS ANKLE DEEP AND YOU'RE LIKE, THIS SHOULDN'T BE A BIG DEAL.
LET'S THROW SOME ROCKS IN THERE AND JUST HAVE PEOPLE WALK ACROSS THERE.
BUT, BUT WE NEED TO STAY OUT OF THE FLOODPLAIN, WHICH MEANS YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE ANGLED UP LIKE THIS, WHICH MEANS THE BRIDGE BECOMES LONGER, THE LONGER THE BRIDGE PRICE YOU THE BRIDGE IS.
UM, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE ORIGINALLY THOUGHT ABOUT HAVING SOME BIG STONES FOR CROSSING AND THEN MAYBE HAVING THERE BE A FEW DAYS OF THE YEAR AFTER BIG STORMS, IT WOULD JUST BE UNCROSSABLE.
UM, THE GOOD COMMENTS THAT WE HAD FROM IRONWOOD OUTDOORS IS THAT BECAUSE THIS TRAIL DIRECTLY CONNECTS TO A TOWN, IT'S GOING TO EMPTY OUT RIGHT THERE ON CHRYSLER BY BURRELL BROOKS PARK IN THE LIBRARY, RIGHT? WE'RE GOING TO GET FOLKS FROM TOWN JUST WALKING A PIECE OF IT, MAYBE NOT GOING ALL THE WAY TO THE AT, BUT JUST ENJOYING A LITTLE WALK AROUND HAPPY CREEK.
WE NEED TO BE COGNIZANT THAT THIS IS A BIGGER USER BASE THAN A TRAIL THAT MIGHT BE IN THE HEART OF SHENANDOAH NATIONAL PARK.
THAT IS A FIVE MILE HIKE IN WITH MORE ADVANCED HIKERS, RIGHT? MM-HMM
WE'RE GOING TO GET A LITTLE BIT OF EVERYBODY POTENTIALLY USING THIS TRAIL.
SO THAT PUTS THE SAFETY BAR A LITTLE HIGHER AS FAR AS WHERE WE NEED TO AIM FOR.
UM, SO THE BRIDGE CROSSINGS, YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY, PEOPLE START SLIPPING ON THESE ROCKS, BUT, YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO GO A HIGHER LEVEL AND, AND HAVE PEOPLE BE COMFORTABLE.
UM, SO IT REALLY IS A TOWN TRAIL, EVEN THOUGH WE'RE CONNECTING TO AN APPALACHIAN TRAIL WHERE ANYTHING GOES.
UM, THIS IS A TOWN TRAIL IN ITS FEEL IN THE WAY IT'S GONNA BE BUILT.
LISTEN, I TALKED TO YOU IN ONE OF THE MEETINGS LAST YEAR ABOUT IT.
UH, MAKING IT FEASIBLE FOR, TO GET, TO GET PEOPLE OUTTA IT.
HAVING IT WIDE ENOUGH THAT WE COULD USE AT TV IN THERE SO WE CAN GET A POLICE RESPONSE TEAM.
AND, AND THAT'S PART OF THAT BRIDGE WORK TOO, IS THAT, UH, NOT ONLY ARE WE DOING A WIDE, A LONG SPAN, BUT THE WIDTH OF THE BRIDGE TO ACCOMMODATE AN A TV RIGHT.
TO BE ABLE TO GET IN THERE AND THERE WOULD BE DIFFERENT ACCESS POINTS FROM 5 22 TO VARIOUS SPOTS.
SO YOU MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO GET AN A, UH, AN A TV EVERYWHERE FROM THE BEGINNING, BUT YOU COULD ACCESS FROM DIFFERENT SPOTS ON 5 22 KIND OF THING.
SO THERE COULD BE, YOU KNOW, YES, WE ARE.
THAT'S BEEN IN THE FEASIBILITY STUDY, WHICH IS, WHICH IS GREAT.
SO THE OTHER THING BESIDES THE TWO THINGS, BUT THE OTHER THING WAS, SO, YOU KNOW, I'M ON THE SHENDO RAIL TRAIL COMMITTEE TOO, RIGHT? RIGHT.
AND I REMEMBER, UM, UH, IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN A YEAR AGO EVEN, UH, UM, DON HYMAN HAD TALKED ABOUT THERE, THERE WAS A GROUP THAT WE COULD GO IN AND MEET WITH, BUT WHAT, WHAT IT, WHAT IT WAS REALLY WAS IS, AND IT MIGHT BE THE CONSERVATION CORPS, THERE WERE CERTAIN GROUPS AND UM, THEY WOULD HELP WITH, THE IDEA WAS THAT MAYBE THEY WOULD COME IN AND DO PIECES OF THE TRAIL IN YOUR AREA.
THAT WOULD CALL, AND THIS WAS FOR THE CHANEL RAIL TRAIL, RIGHT? MM-HMM
WHICH I MIGHT REMEMBER MORE ABOUT THIS, BUT, UM, BUT HE WANTED US TO COME AND ATTEND THIS MEETING, POSSIBLY TALK TO THESE PEOPLE.
'CAUSE THERE MIGHT BE LIKE A PIECE THAT'S IN FRONT ROYAL THAT THEY COULD, THEY, THEY COULD DO A SMALL PIECE OF IT, WHICH WOULD CUT DOWN THE COST OF IT.
UM, I, I DON'T, MAYBE I SHOULD JUST TALK TO DON ABOUT, OR IS THAT THE GROUP? IS THAT ALREADY ACTUALLY WE ARE TALKING TO DON.
WE'RE ALSO TALKING TO KYLE LAWRENCE AND A BUNCH OF OTHERS.
INDO VALLEY THAT HAVE USED SEVERAL OF THESE DIFFERENT CONSERVATION CORES AND HOW TO USE THEM AND HOW MUCH, YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE, DO YOU NEED TWO YEARS WARNING AND IS IT A, DO WE GET THREE WEEKS OF YOUR TIME? DO WE GET FIVE WEEKS OF YOUR TIME? HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU HAVE? UM, YES.
THOSE CONVERSATIONS ARE SAYING, BUT CONCEPTUALLY WE'RE
[00:20:01]
IN THE SAME YEAH, SAME IDEAS.LIKE CAN WE LEAN ON THAT, THIS EXISTING CAPACITY THAT ARE LOOKING FOR PROJECTS.
AND IT'S NOT LIKE, I'M NOT SAYING IT'S GONNA SAVE YOU A MILLION DOLLARS, BUT IT'S LIKE LITTLE PIECES OF IT.
BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ALREADY HAVE THE SAME CONNECTIONS THAT I WAS AWARE OF.
WE'RE GOING THAT ROUTE FOR SURE.
A HUNDRED PERCENT SOUNDS LIKE AMERICORPS ONLY CONCERT.
ANY OTHER COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS OR, I WAS JUST GONNA ASK, UH, IT'S A LITTLE EARLY, YOU CAN TALK ABOUT IT, BUT THE CONCEPT IN THE CONCEPT PLAN IS, IS THERE A A BUILT-IN MAINTENANCE COST INTO THE FEASIBILITY STUFF? YEAH, MAINTENANCE IS A GOOD PART.
NO, WE ARE THINKING ABOUT MAINTENANCE.
SO THE GOAL, UM, WOULD BE, THE GOAL WOULD BE TO APPROACH THE POTOMAC APPALACHIAN TRAIL CLUB ABOUT MAINTENANCE.
SO THE PATC BASED OUT OF WHERE THEY, OUT OF HARPER
UM, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE TRAIL MAINTAINERS, ALL OF THIS SECTION OF APPALACHIA, WHICH IS FANTASTIC.
I USED TO BE A TRAIL MAINTAINER.
I'M SURE FOLKS IN THIS ROOM HAVE BEEN, THEY HAVE THAT SYSTEM SET UP TO, TO FIND PEOPLE AND ALLOCATE THE RESOURCES, NEED TO GET THEM TRAINED.
YOU CAN GET THEM ON A TRAIL DOING TRAIL MAINTENANCE.
WE DEFINITELY, ON THAT, WE WOULD MAKE THAT, MAKE THIS ONE OF THOSE TRAILS THAT THEY WOULD MAINTAIN.
IT MIGHT BE THREE SETS OF MAINTAINERS.
THEY EACH GET A MILE OF THE TRAIL.
I ALSO SEE THIS SINCE IT'S SO CLOSE TO TOWN BEING A REALLY GOOD, UM, OPTION FOR SOME OF OUR YOUTH GROUPS TO ALSO TAKE ON, YOU KNOW, SOMEWHAT PERMANENTLY, WHICH WOULD BE GREAT SCOUTS FOR EXAMPLE, RIGHT? I MEAN, TO GET OUT THERE AND THEY HAVE A SESSION, THE TRAIL THEY BE PROUD OF.
SO I REALLY WANT TO OPEN IT UP TO LOCAL CIVIC GROUPS FIRST TO BE LIKE, ADOPT A SECTION OF THIS TRAIL.
WE CAN HAVE SIGNAGE, YOU KNOW, IT'S A GREAT CHANCE FOR THEM TO GET OUT.
YOU CAN PARK RIGHT AT BRAILLE BROOKS, WALK RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET AND THEN HIT THE TRAIL.
YOU KNOW, THERE'S GONNA BE A LOT OF ACCESSIBILITY.
UM, SO YES, A HUNDRED PERCENT WE WERE THINKING ABOUT MAINTENANCE AND IN FACT, EVERY FUNDER THAT WE GO TO, OF COURSE ALSO WANTS TO KNOW ABOUT MAINTENANCE.
'CAUSE PEOPLE ARE WORRIED THEY'RE GONNA PUT MONEY INTO THE PROJECT.
AND OF COURSE IT'S GONNA SIZZLE OVER TIME.
I AM, I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT MAINTENANCE.
'CAUSE I, I THINK WE HAVE A LOT OF GREAT GROUPS THAT ARE GONNA JUMP ON THAT WHEN THEY HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY.
SO, BUT IT IS A BIG PART OF THE PLAN.
SO, SO THE GOAL IS ALSO TO MAKE IT A DA, UH, ACCESSIBLE.
UM, IT, IT WON'T BE A PAVED PATH.
SO I THINK RIGHT THERE AUTOMATICALLY, IT, IT'S, YOU'RE NOT GONNA HIT THAT FULL LEVEL OF A DA COMPLIANCE.
IT'S GONNA BE WIDE, AS WIDE AS WE CAN GET IT.
UM, BUT IT'S REALLY GOING TO CONFORM, I THINK MOSTLY TO THE BENCHMARK OF WHAT SHENANDOAH NATIONAL PARK REQUIRES FOR THEIR TRAILS.
WE START THERE AND, AND, AND IMPROVE FROM THERE, RIGHT? BECAUSE WE NEED TO MAKE SURE IT'S COMPLIANT WITH THE PARK.
WE'RE ALSO NEVER GONNA LET US THROUGH THAT SECTION OF THE PARK.
WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE PARK FOR A COUPLE HUNDRED YARDS.
UM, AND SO I THINK THERE COULD BE SECTIONS OF IT IN THE FUTURE THAT ARE MORE ADA A COMPLIANT.
THE, THE, THE TRICK BECOMES, I'M OF THE MINDSET THAT'S LIKE, LET'S GET US TO THE POINT WHERE WE GET A PATH ON THE GROUND, RIGHT? THAT'S STEP ONE.
GET THAT PATH ON THE GROUND, WHICH COULD BE A 10 YEAR PLAN, RIGHT? AND THEN FROM THERE, THE ABILITY TO LOOK AT SEGMENTS OF IT THAT ARE REALLY PRETTY AND HAVE GOOD ACCESSIBILITY IN A PARKING LOT NEARBY.
MAYBE THERE'S A POSSIBILITY TO PAVE SOME SECTIONS OF IT OVER TIME WAY, YOU KNOW, THAT'S, THAT'S A NEXT THING.
I'M WORRIED THAT IF WE START WITH THAT, IF WE START WITH A FULLY PAID TRAIL, EIGHT FEET WIDE, ET CETERA, YOU REACH A COST AND A, AND A LEVEL, A NUMBER OF OBSTACLES THAT YOU JUST, YOU CAN NEVER GET THAT TRAIL ON THE GROUND.
RIGHT? SO WE'RE STARTING VERY SIMPLE FOOT TRAFFIC ONLY.
IT'S NOT GONNA BE ADA A COMPLIANT IN, IN ALL AREAS FOR SURE.
BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT SOMETHING, WE DON'T LOOK AT SEGMENTS OF IT AND SAY THIS WOULD MAKE A GREAT SEGMENT FOR FOLKS THAT ARE IN A WHEELCHAIR THAT WE COULD GET OUT THERE AND HAVE THIS WORK FOR THEM.
GET THEM ACCESS TO HAPPY CREEK.
I THINK THAT'S AN AWESOME NEXT PHASE TO LOOK AT.
WELL, AND THAT MAY OPEN UP, UM, ADDITIONAL, UH, FINANCIAL RESOURCES TOO IF YOU WANTED TO, TO GO THAT ROUTE.
ANY, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? VICE MAYOR AL? I'M ASSUMING YOU'RE GOOD, RIGHT? NO QUESTIONS.
I'M GLAD TO HEAR THAT IT'S PROGRESSING.
I KNOW AT ONE POINT IT WAS KIND OF ON HOLD, SO THIS IS ALL PROMISING AND VERY REASSURING.
ALL RIGHT, IF WE'RE GOOD NOW, YOU'RE GOOD.
ALRIGHT, SO NEXT UP IS ALL NEW BUSINESS AND MS. CAMPBELL IS THE FIRST THREE OUT OF FOUR ITEMS. SO THE FIRST ONE IS THE PURCHASE OF A REPLACEMENT
[00:25:01]
PICKUP TRUCK WITH PUBLIC WORKS CONCRETE CREW.UH,
THE NEW VEHICLE WILL, WILL REPLACE UNIT NUMBER 7 48, WHICH IS A 2004 CHEVROLET 3,500 PICKUP WITH A UTILITY BODY THAT HAS ACCUMULATED MORE THAN 92,000 MILES.
THE PROCUREMENT WILL BE MADE THROUGH THE CITY OF CHESAPEAKE.
VIRGINIA'S COOPERATIVE CONTRACT WITH HALL AUTOMOTIVE STAFF OBTAINED A QUOTE FROM HALL AUTOMOTIVE FLEET TEAM OF VIRGINIA BEACH, VIRGINIA.
AND THE AMOUNT OF $87,874 FUNDING FOR THE VEHICLE PURCHASE IS AVAILABLE WITHIN THE HIGHWAY MAINTENANCE DEPARTMENTS FISCAL YEAR 27 OPERATING BUDGET AND CONSISTS OF $80,000 PREVIOUSLY ENCUMBERED ON A PURCHASE ORDER AND $7,874 BUDGETED IN THE FISCAL YEAR 27 MOTOR VEHICLES ACCOUNT.
I, UM, I JUST, I THINK I KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS 'CAUSE I'VE CERTAINLY BEEN ASKED MULTIPLE TIMES IN SITUATIONS JUST LIKE THIS, BUT SO WILL THE 2004 JUST BE, UM, ENCUMBERED IN ONE OF OUR OTHER DEPARTMENTS? IS THAT THE IDEA? I MEAN, I KNOW SOMETIMES WE SELL IT ON DOUG, DOUG DEALS OR WHATEVER, BUT I'M JUST WONDERING.
I MEAN, 92,000 MILES IS A LOT OF MILES.
UM, BUT, BUT LIKE OUR CAR, TWO OF OUR CARS HAVE MORE THAN THAT.
SO IT'S THE I IF THERE'S A USE FOR IT, WE ABSOLUTELY WILL.
YEAH, I'M PRETTY SURE THIS ONE'S IN ROUGH SHAPE, SO I THINK IT'S GONNA FUNCTION.
YEAH, IT'S NOT GONNA MAKE IT ANY LONGER.
ANYBODY ELSE HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT ONE? OKAY, THEN THAT, THAT COULD BE ON THE CONSENT AGENDA.
UM, SO THE NEXT ONE IS A PURCHASE OF A REPLACEMENT REFUSE TRUCK FOR PUBLIC WORKS BY WASTE.
SO, UM, COUNSEL HAS REQUESTED TO AUTHORIZE THE PURCHASE OF THE 2027 FREIGHTLINER CHASSIS EQUIPPED WITH THE 25 FOOT REAR LOADER FOR THE PUBLIC WORKS SOLID WASTE DEPARTMENT.
THE NEW VEHICLE WILL REPLACE UNIT NUMBER 6 87, WHICH IS A 2008 INTERNATIONAL 2,600 REFUGE TRUCK THAT IS ACCUMULATED MORE THAN 117,000 MILES.
THE PROCUREMENT WILL BE MADE THROUGH A SOURCE WELL COOPERATIVE CONTRACT WITH GAIN RANCH TRUCKS.
NORTH AMERICA AND STAFF OBTAINED A QUOTE FROM XCEL TRUCK GROUP OF WES CAVE, VIRGINIA, WHICH IS AN AUTHORIZED DEALER FOR DAMER TRUCKS IN THE AMOUNT OF $266,000.
AGAIN, TWO $66,967 FUNDING FOR THE VEHICLE PURCHASE IS AVAILABLE WITHIN THE SOLID WASTE MANAGEMENT DEPARTMENT'S FISCAL YEAR 27 MOTOR VEHICLES OPERATING BUDGET AND CONSISTS OF $105,004 PREVIOUSLY ENCUMBERED AND $161,963 BUDGETED IN FISCAL YEAR 27 MOTOR VEHICLES ACCOUNT.
ANY QUESTIONS? UM, UH, I GOT, I GOT ONE.
UM, SO IT IS AN 18-YEAR-OLD VEHICLE DUMP, UH, REFUSE VEHICLE, UH, WITH 117,009 17 MILES.
OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, TO ME THAT'S NOTHING BECAUSE I, I HAVE THE 425,000 MILES ON MY, IT IS MOSTLY HIGHWAY MILES.
HOWEVER, WHAT I'D LIKE TO KNOW IS, UH, DO, DO WE KNOW HOW MANY ENGINE HOURS THAT WE HAVE ON THAT VEHICLE? WELL, IT'S 18 YEARS OF DAILY USE.
YOU SAID 18, YOU SAID 19, BUT 2020, I MEAN, 27 MINUS EIGHT IS 19.
BUT YEAH, TO ME IT'S THE ENGINE HOURS THAT BECAUSE OF THE STOP AND GO.
AND I, I WAS JUST WONDERING IF WE TRACK THAT.
IT HASN'T ADOPTER ON LIKE THAT WE CAN ASK.
I'M NOT SURE IF THAT ONE, SOME OF 'EM HAVE OUR METERS, BUT I'M NOT SURE WE CAN CHECK.
I KNOW LIKE THE FLUSH TRUCKS DO.
AND THEN OUR NEW SYSTEM, ALL THE TRUCKS, SINCE WE'VE PUT THE SAMSARA STUFF, IT TRACKS HOURS THAT IT'S BEEN RUNNING.
SO WE HAVE NEW TECHNOLOGY THAT'S RECENTLY BEEN INSTALLED THAT'S TRACKING IT.
BUT SOME OF THESE OLDER TRUCKS DON'T HAVE.
I GUESS THE THRESHOLD IS SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 12 AND 15,000 HOURS.
UH, WELL THE OTHER PROBLEM IS, IS THAT THE PARTS JUST GET HARDER TO FIND WHEN THEY'RE, ONCE THEY GET PAST 10 YEARS OLD, THE, THE PARTS GET HARDER TO FIND.
[00:30:01]
JOB AT IT.UM, UM, JUST OUTTA CURIOSITY, REFUGE TRUCKS, WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME WE REPLACED ONE? JUST, WE JUST GOT A NEW ONE.
I THINK WE ORDERED IT A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.
YEAH, I WAS GONNA SAY, I JUST REMEMBER US TALKING ABOUT IT.
SO HOW, I'M GONNA REALLY PUT SOME QUESTIONS OUT HERE.
HOW MANY DO WE HAVE ALL TOGETHER IN OUR FLEET? SIX.
SO WE, WE GOT A BRAND NEW ONE.
THIS ONE WHEN WE ORDER IT, HOPEFULLY IT DOESN'T TAKE US TWO YEARS TO GET IT, BUT ONE NEVER KNOWS.
SO THEN WE WOULD LITERALLY HAVE ONE THIRD OF OUR FLEET WOULD BE NEW, RIGHT? OR I MEAN
WE, WE HAVE AN ADDITIONAL ONE COMING UP, UH, EXTRA BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE CHALLENGES THAT WE'VE BEEN FACING.
WE'VE BEEN HANGING ONTO IT A LITTLE LONGER.
'CAUSE YOU RECALL THIS GUESS PROBABLY ABOUT A MONTH OR TWO AGO.
BUT WE HAD TO, UH, WE DIDN'T HAVE RECYCLING BECAUSE WE HAD TO PULL THE TRUCKS TO COVER THOSE BECAUSE WE HAD TWO TRUCKS DOWN.
YEAH, WE DON'T HAVE ANY, WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY SPARES.
SO IF IT'S DOWN THEN, BUT THERE'S SIX THOUGH, RIGHT? THERE'S SIX.
DOES COUNSEL HAVE ANY ISSUES WITH PUTTING THIS ON THE CONSENT AGENDA? OKAY, ONE 40 MORE FOR YOU.
MS. CAMPBELL PURCHASE OF REPLACEMENT CAMERA SYSTEM FOR REPUBLIC WORKS SEWER CAMERA TRUCK.
SO COUNSEL IS REQUESTED TO AUTHORIZE THE PURCHASE OF EQUIPMENT, SOFTWARE AND INSTALLATION SERVICES DIRECTLY FIT THE PUBLIC WORKS SEWER MAINTENANCE DEPARTMENT, SEWER CAMERA TRUCK WITH A NEW CAMERA INSPECTION SYSTEM.
THE EXISTING SYSTEM HAS REACHED THE END OF ITS USEFUL LIFE AND IS NO LONGER CAPABLE OF BEING THE DEPARTMENT'S OPERATIONAL NEEDS.
THE PROCUREMENT WILL BE MADE THROUGH A SOURCE WELL COOPERATIVE CONTRACT WITH INFRASTRUCTURE SOLUTIONS GROUP OF MECHANICSVILLE, VIRGINIA STAFF OBTAINED FROM ISG.
AND THE AMOUNT OF 139,936 35 CENTS FUNDING FOR THE PURCHASE IS AVAILABLE WITHIN THE SEWER MAINTENANCE DEPARTMENT'S.
FISCAL YEAR 27 MACHINERY AND EQUIPMENT OPERATING BUDGET.
THIS IS NOT TO REPLACE A TRUCK, IT'S JUST TO REPLACE THE EQUIPMENT.
ANYBODY HAVE ANY QUESTIONS? WELL, THE CAMERA PROBABLY GETS PRETTY NASTY.
IT'S A VERY CORROSIVE ENVIRONMENT.
SO IF THERE'S NO QUESTIONS FOR THAT, I'LL PUT THAT ON THE CONSENT AGENDA FOR THE AUGUST 24TH MEETING AS WELL, UNLESS ANYBODY HAS ANY CONCERNS.
SO NEXT UP ARE THE COUNCIL APPOINTMENTS TO THE TOE BOARD.
AND IT LOOKS LIKE MR. PETTY IS IN CHARGE OF THIS ITEM.
IF YOU RECALL, WE HAD A, UH, PICK THE JOINT TOWN COUNTY MEETINGS.
WE HAD TALKED ABOUT HAVING INTERVIEWS, ET CETERA.
UM, MIGHT HAVE A PUBLIC MEANS TALKING ABOUT IT.
THE GOOD THING IS EVERYBODY WHO'S BEEN ON IT BEFORE IS LOOKING TO BE REAPPOINTED.
SO WE'RE SEEKING NOW, WE ARE STILL, WHICH HAS BEEN ONGOING FOR YEARS, UH, SEEKING A CITIZEN APPOINTMENT.
ANY CITIZEN WHO WANTS TO SIT ON IT, UM, I DON'T THINK THEY'VE HAD THAT VACANCY FILLED FOR THREE YEARS, FOUR YEARS, I THINK.
UM, BUT UH, EVERYBODY WHO WAS ON IT BEFORE WAS FINE WITH REAPPOINTMENT.
SO WE ARE MOVING THOSE FORWARD FOR AUGUST WEEK.
UM, THE TONE BOARD, YOU KNOW, WE TALKED ABOUT THAT AT A COUPLE DIFFERENT LIAISON MEETINGS AND THERE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE SOMETHING THAT WE WERE GONNA COME BACK AND, UH, I I WAS JUST WONDERING AT THE SAME TIME, IF WE'RE DOING THIS, UH, SO WELL, NO, I THINK ONCE THIS BOARD IS BACK, YOU KNOW, WE'RE REAPPOINTING THEM.
THEY HAVE SOME BYLAWS AND POTENTIALLY ORDINANCE CHANGES.
THAT THIS, UH, WHEN HE GETS THIS PART DONE, AND THEN THIS BOARD WILL TAKE ON THOSE AND BRING THOSE FORWARD TO YOU ALL.
YES, THERE'S TALK ABOUT CAPS, THERE'S TALK ABOUT SOME BYLAWS, ET CETERA.
BUT, UM, UH, LIEUTENANT VIS FROM THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE, I KNOW MISS, UH, KEVIN FOGLE HAD BEEN DISCUSSING SOME OF THOSE CHANGES.
AND WE'LL BRING THOSE TO THE COUNCIL AND THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS ONCE THEY'RE BACK TO FULL STRENGTH AND, AND REAPPOINT.
FIRST, JUST WANNA SAY AGAIN, FOR THE PUBLIC THAT THE CITIZEN APPOINTMENT CAN BE FROM THE TOWN OR COUNTY.
IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE JUST THE TOWN OR
[00:35:01]
JUST THE COUNTY.WE WILL TAKE, WELL, OBVIOUSLY IT WAS THE COUNTY CITIZEN LAST TIME.
THE COUNTY SEEMED LIKE TO ME THOUGH, THAT THEY ACTUALLY USED THE CLERK OF THE BOARD SUPERVISORS BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T FIND ANYBODY ELSE AND SHE WAS THERE TAKING THE MINUTES.
THIS IS, SHE LIVED IN THE COUNTY.
AND, AND WILLING TO, BUT THEY, BUT THEY REALLY ARE LOOKING FOR SOMEBODY AND THEY WOULD PREFER IT NOT BE AN EMPLOYEE OF THE TOWN OR COUNTY.
SO IF YOU ARE A CITIZEN AND YOU HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR WAYS TO, TO TAKE AN ACTIVE ROLE IN YOUR GOVERNMENT, THIS WOULD BE A REALLY GOOD STARTING PLACE TO, UM, TO, TO JUST REACH OUT TO US HERE AT THE TOWN OR THE COUNTY.
AND WE WILL, WE'VE SHARED THIS WITH THE COUNTY BECAUSE WE WOULD JOINTLY BE APPOINTING THESE SO THEY WOULDN'T BE TAKING THIS UP TO THEIR OFFICE.
AND IT'S ADVERTISED, RIGHT? YEAH.
IT'S, IT IS, LIKE I SAID, IT'S BEEN LIKE, IT'S OPEN.
IT'S BEEN OPEN AND UM, YEAH, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S A LOT OF THESE EXPERIENCE REQUIRE.
WELL, YOU KNOW, LIKE I WAS THINKING LIKE A RETIRED LAW ENFORCEMENT COULD HAVE AN INTEREST IN BEING ON IT OR, YOU KNOW, UM, EVEN FOLKS WHO'VE GONE OUT OF BUSINESS IN THE TOWING INDUSTRY.
SO WELL, WE'LL CONTINUE TO PUSH THAT OUT.
HOW OFTEN THEY MEET YOU? QUARTERLY.
IT'S ONLY FOUR TIMES A YEAR THAT THEY HAVE TO MEET.
LIKE I SAID, IT'S A PERFECT THING FOR PEOPLE WHO JUST WANT TO DIP THEIR TOES IN THE WATER TO SEE.
SO IF NO ONE HAS ANY PROBLEMS WITH THIS, THIS COULD BE ON THE CONSENT AGENDA AS WELL.
SO THE OLD BUSINESS IS THE ZONING ORDINANCE, AMENDMENT, OUTDOOR DINING AREAS.
WE TALKED ABOUT THIS LAST WEEK.
WE WANTED TO GIVE PEOPLE A CHANCE TO, UM, TO HAVE SOME TIME TO THINK ABOUT IT, REVIEW IT, MAKE SUGGESTIONS.
I KNOW COUNCILMAN DEKO PAYNE HAD SOME THOUGHTS THAT SHE SHARED.
SO LOOKS LIKE MS. K'S GONNA LEAD THIS CON CONVERSATION YEP.
FOR DISCUSSION OR DO A RESET FROM LAST WEEK.
SO I THINK MAYBE I DIDN'T INCLUDE THE WHY.
SO WHY ARE WE DOING THIS? UM, SO WE ENCOUNTERED A PROBLEM IN OUR CURRENT CODE, RIGHT? SO THE CURRENT CODE GENERALLY REQUIRES PERMITTED USES TO OCCUR WITHIN AN ENCLOSED BUILDING FOR COMMERCIAL USES.
UM, SO OUR THOUGHT WAS, UM, WE NEEDED TO RECOGNIZE OUTDOOR SEATING AS AN ACCESSORY USE, UM, CLEAR STANDARDS.
AND THEN THAT WAS KIND OF THE, THE INTENTION OF THIS IS THAT THIS WOULD COMPLIMENT THE PRINCIPLE USE.
SO WE ARE TRYING TO BRING EXISTING BUSINESSES THAT ARE ALREADY DOING THIS INTO COMPLIANCE.
THERE'S NO, IF WE'RE NOT PUNISHING THEM, UM, THIS IS JUST TO MAKE IT, UM, SO THE, AGAIN, SO THE, THE WAY THIS IS STRUCTURED IS THAT YOU HAVE YOUR PRINCIPAL PERMITTED USE.
SO THIS IS THE MAIN USE OF THE PROPERTY.
WE PERMIT THIS VIA THE ZONING ORDINANCE FOR OUR DEPARTMENT.
UM, SO THEN YOU HAVE AN ACCESSORY USE THAT IS INCIDENTAL INSUBORDINATE.
THAT IS THE DEFINITION WITHIN OUR CODE.
SO THE RESTAURANT WILL BE THE PRIMARY USE, THEN THE OUTDOOR DINING WILL BE AN ACCESSORY TO IT.
AND AGAIN, THAT HAS TO BE INCIDENTAL INSUBORDINATE TO IT, WHICH WHEN WE GET TO THE STANDARDS IS WHY WE PUT THAT 50% CAP IN BECAUSE THAT WOULD GIVE STAFF A WAY TO MEASURE THAT.
SO WHAT WE DID IS WE DEFINED OUTDOOR DINING AREA BECAUSE YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING WITH THE USE IF YOU DON'T DEFINE IT.
SO AN OUTDOOR SPACE ON THE SAME LOT AS, OR CONTIGUOUS TO ILLEGALLY ESTABLISH FOOD, UM, ESTABLISHMENT.
SO RESTAURANT OR CAFE USED FOR THE CONSUMPTION OF FOOD OR BEVERAGES.
AND THEN WHAT WE DID WAS WE CHANGED THIS A LITTLE BIT AND THEN BUILT IN THAT ALL FURNITURE UMBRELLAS AND STRUCTURES MUST BE SECURED OUTSIDE OF REGULAR BUSINESS HOURS AND DURING AN EMERGENCY OR SPECIAL EVENT.
YOU GUYS HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF HEARTBURN ABOUT THIS LAST WEEK.
UM, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY HAVE TO BRING IT IN AT THE END OF EACH BUSINESS DAY.
IT JUST MEANS THAT IT NEEDS TO BE SECURED.
UM, AND THEN THE PERFORMANCE STANDARDS.
I'M ASSUMING, I KNOW YOU'RE PRESENTING, BUT AS WE COME ACROSS SOMETHING THAT WAS DONE, I KNOW THAT COUNCILWOMAN DE DOMINICAN PAYNE SHARED SOME OTHER LANGUAGE OR JUST TO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
JUST WANNA, I HAVE IT PULLED UP HERE.
SO ALL FURNITURE UMBRELLAS AND STRUCTURES, WHICH I THINK IT SAYS ALL OF THAT.
SAYS MUST BE SECURED OUTSIDE, BUT HERS SAYS ALL FURNITURE UMBRELLAS AND STRUCTURES MUST BE TEMPORARY, UNATTACHED AND EASILY REMOVED AND OR SECURED
[00:40:01]
OUTSIDE OF REGULAR BUSINESS HOURS.'CAUSE ORIGINALLY SHE HAD REMOVED IN THERE.
THEY CHANGED THAT FROM WHAT, FROM WHAT WE HAD LAST WEEK.
SHE REMOVE, SHE HAD REMOVED IN THERE, BUT NOW SHE HAS SECURED.
I LIKE, I LIKED YOUR LANGUAGE, WHICH IS THE REASON WHY I WAS BRINGING UP, I LIKE THE IDEA THAT IT IS TIP THAT IT SAYS TEMPORARY, UM, UNATTACHED AND EASILY REMOVED BECAUSE, WELL, UNATTACHED MEANS IT CAN BE REMOVED.
IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT'S BOLTED DOWN OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, THAT IT COULD BE EASILY REMOVED.
BUT ANYWAY, UM, AND COUNSEL HAS THE DISCRETION.
IF YOU WANNA USE YOUR LANGUAGE, YOU'RE MORE THAN WELCOME TO.
I WAS JUST TRYING TO MAKE IT CONCISE.
I JUST, UM, IT LOOKS LIKE THE ONLY THING THAT YOUR LANGUAGE, ADAM MELISSA, WAS MUST BE SO THE ADDS TEMPORARY, UNATTACHED EASILY REMOVED.
'CAUSE SOME OF THAT, WELL, LIKE THREE THINGS I WAS JUST BUILDING ON LIKE WHAT SHE HAD AND THEN JUST EXPANDING IT.
BUT, AND TEMPORARY AND UNATTACHED TO ME.
I MEAN, FROM A ZONING PERSPECTIVE, IF IF IT'S UNATTACHED, IT, IT'S GONNA BE TEMPORARY.
SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS YOU ONLY NEED ONE WORD, ONE OF THOSE WORDS.
I JUST THINKING THAT SECURED, IF IT IS SECURED, THAT MEANS THAT IT IS, IT'S SAFE FOR THE PUBLIC.
UM, IT GIVES THEM DISCRETION TO DO WHAT THEY NEED TO DO WITH IT, BUT IT DOESN'T ADDRESS IT BEING NOT PERMANENT.
AM I, AM I READING IT DIFFERENTLY THAN YOU ALL ARE? YOU CAN GO AHEAD.
I THINK THE, I WOULD, I WOULD SAY ONE OF THE CHALLENGES I WOULD SEE WITH THAT IS IN THE SENSE OF SOME OF THIS FURNITURE THAT YOU MIGHT SEE, LIKE SOME PEOPLE DO USE OBJECTION.
SOME PEOPLE USE AN UMBRELLA, BUT SOME PEOPLE DO HAVE A MORE PERMANENT, LIKE AWNING THAT'S CONSTRUCTED THOSE KIND OF SALE LOOKING THINGS.
I THINK BY SAYING SECURED, WHETHER IT'S PERMANENT OR TEMPORARY, WE'RE SAYING THAT IT'S JUST, WHICH, WHAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, WE HAVE A LOT OF OUTDOOR DINING ALREADY AND WE DON'T GET A LOT OF CALLS ABOUT TABLES AND CHAIRS BLOWING AROUND EVERYWHERE.
SO WE FEEL LIKE EVERYBODY'S DOING A HIT THE D TODAY, EVERYBODY'S DOING A PROPER JOB WITH SECURING IT TODAY.
UH, PUTTING AWAY THINGS THAT DON'T NECESSARILY NEED TO BE OUT.
SO I THINK BETWEEN TEMPORARY AND PERMANENT, AS LONG AS IT'S SECURED, UM, IT SHOULD MEET KIND OF THAT DEFINITION.
'CAUSE SOME THINGS MIGHT BE A LITTLE MORE PERMANENT.
I MEAN, THE INTENTION WAS TO JUST MAKE YEAH, I, YOU CAN CHANGE IT TO
I WAS GONNA SAY WHAT JOE WAS SAYING, BECAUSE SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, SOME, SOME RESTAURANTS MIGHT HAVE, YOU KNOW, UM, IF IT'S ON THEIR PROPERTY, THEY MIGHT HAVE A FENCE OR SOMETHING AROUND, BUT THEY MIGHT HAVE LIKE SEATS OR SOMETHING BUILT IN, YOU KNOW, LINE BY A, B, C AND YEAH.
BUT THERE, THERE, YOU KNOW, THERE COULD BE SOME LIKE, PERMANENT STRUCTURES OUTSIDE, YOU KNOW, AS FAR AS SEATING AND STUFF GOES THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, MADE TO BE SET.
A DC HAS REQUIREMENTS THAT SOME OF IT'S BOLTED IN.
THAT'S, AGAIN, THAT'S BOLTED INTO THE SIDEWALK.
THAT'S DEFINITELY NOT TEMPORARY.
THAT'S, THAT'S COMPLETELY OUTSIDE OF OUR, THAT'S WHY THAT'S IF IT'S ON THEIR PROPERTY, I GET IT.
BUT OBVIOUSLY IT CAN'T BE BOLTED DOWN ON THE TOWN SIDEWALK.
WELL, THAT, THAT'S WHY SHE'S SAYING IT IS SECURE.
THAT'S WHY JOE WAS SAYING FOR THAT VERY REASON.
SO THAT'S WHY TAKE LEAVING TEMPORARY OUT THERE A IT'S PROBABLY A GOOD IDEA.
IT COULD BE SECURED BY WEIGHT.
YOU LOOK AT IT ON A TENT SO THAT YEAH.
THAT CAN BE SECURE AND THEN IT'S TEMPORARY.
I'LL KNOW, UM, I DID NOT WRITE ABOUT THIS PIECE, BUT WHEN YOU WERE BRINGING IT UP, DOES IT HAVE TO BE AN ACCESSORY USE? YES.
SO YOU, BECAUSE I MEAN, I'M THINKING ABOUT SOME OF THESE, LET'S JUST, LET'S JUST THINK ABOUT, WELL, I DON'T KNOW.
I'M SURE MOST PEOPLE AROUND HERE REMEMBER, BUT REMEMBER, WINDS, WINDS, RESTAURANT ON MAIN STREET, RIGHT? MM-HMM
UM, LIMITED SEATING, VERY POPULAR.
SO IF THEY OWNED, LET'S SAY THEY OWNED THE PARKING LOT BEHIND THEM AND THEY HAD, YOU KNOW, MUCH MORE SPACE OUT THERE THAT THEY COULD HAVE USED.
AND I'M SURE THERE'S OTHERS RESTAURANTS THAT COULD DO THIS TOO.
I MEAN, AGAIN, I'M GETTING BACK TO THAT 50%, BUT I, I JUST REALLY FEEL LIKE THAT, THAT, THAT YOU COULD BE A RESTAURANT THAT DECIDES THAT YOU'RE GONNA HAVE MORE OUTDOOR SEATING THAN INDOOR.
AND WHY DO WE HAVE TO DEFINE IT? BECAUSE WHEN YOU HAVE MORE OF YOUR SEATING OUTDOORS AND THE ACTIVITIES ARE TAKING PLACE OUTDOORS, IT STARTS TO SKEW THE LINE OF ARE YOU STILL A RESTAURANT? ARE YOU AN OUTDOOR, LIKE EVENT VENUE? LIKE WHAT IS YOUR PURPOSE? RIGHT? SO, UM, ESPECIALLY DOWNTOWN, WHEN THEY START ADDING MUSIC AND STAGES AND THEN MORE FOOD, YOU START GETTING INTO OTHER USES.
[00:45:01]
REGULATE RESTAURANTS, CAFES, AND THEN ALLOWING THEM TO HAVE ACCESSORY AND ACCESSORY USE OF OUTDOOR SEATING, INCIDENTAL AND SUBORDINATE TO THAT CASE.BECAUSE ALSO TOO, YOU'VE GOTTA REMEMBER YOU HAVE THE ZONING CODE AND THEN YOU HAVE THE BUILDING CODES, RIGHT? AND, AND THINK OF LIKE A VENN DIAGRAM.
WE'RE SEPARATE AND WE OVERLAP A TINY BIT, BUT ONE IS, IS THE USE ALLOWED AND THEN THE ACTUAL EXECUTION OF IT.
AND THE BUILDING CODE IS GONNA CONTROL, LIKE, THEY HAVE THEIR DIFFERENT SET OF DEFINITIONS.
SO WHEN YOU START EXPANDING THAT OUTDOOR PORTION OF IT, YOU START TAKING IT INTO OTHER USES WITH THE BUILDING CODE.
THERE'S OTHER REQUIREMENTS AND YOU'RE JUST MUDDYING THE WATERS.
THE INTENT OF THIS WAS JUST TO BE SIMPLE AND ALLOW THE USES WITHIN OUR DOWNTOWN AND ON, ON SOUTH STREET THAT ALREADY HAVE THIS TO JUST CONTINUE BEING ABLE TO USE IT TO, TO BE IN COMPLIANCE.
BUT TO MELISSA'S POINT THAT HERE, GABRIEL, I HAVE A QUESTION.
UM, WHAT DID WE DECIDE SINCE LAST WEEK, WHAT THAT MEANS FOR LIKE THE FOOD TRUCKS THAT ARE, UH, HAVE THE PICNIC TABLES AND IT'S SPECIFICALLY, THERE'S ONE AREA THAT THERE'S MANY PICNIC TABLES, WHICH IS MORE THAN 50% OF EACH OF 'EM, I WOULD SAY.
SO IS THAT A DIFFERENT USE? THAT'S BEEN A DIFFERENT LAST WEEK, BUT THAT'S BEEN A DIFFERENT USE.
AND SO WE'RE ALSO ON OUR END RIGHT NOW, AS WE'RE WORKING THROUGH THE ZONING ORDINANCE, FIGURING OUT HOW WE REGULATE THAT.
AND WE'VE, WE'RE WORKING ON A DRAFT ORDINANCE FOR LIKE A FOOD TRUCK COURT TYPE USE BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST.
SO WE STARTED OUT WITH ONE FOOD TRUCK AND THAT AREA'S KIND OF EXPANDED.
AND THAT IS SOMETHING WE'RE RESEARCHING.
THE REASON I'M ASKING IS BECAUSE WE HAVE, THERE'S LIKE THREE OTHER FOOD TRUCKS OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD THAT ARE IN PARKING LOTS.
IS IT BECAUSE THEY'RE ON PRIVATE PROPERTY THAT THEY'RE NOT CONSIDERED? THEY ARE ON PRIVATE PROPERTY.
AND THAT'S A REQUIREMENT IS THAT THEY'RE, THEY'RE NOT PARKED IN THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY.
UM, BUT THEY'VE BEEN PERMITTED TO HAVE, UH, PICNIC TABLES, BUT THERE'S, THEY'RE SEPARATE ESTABLISHMENTS.
SO LIKE EACH ONE HAS A PICNIC TABLE, BUT AGAIN, THAT'S, THAT'S IN THIS GRAY AREA AND THAT'S WHY WE'RE TRYING TO DRAFT A SEPARATE ORDINANCE FOR THAT, WHICH HASN'T COME TO PLANNING COMMISSION COUNCIL YET.
THAT'S STILL IN THE VERY EARLY STAGES.
ACNO COUNCILMAN DE DOMINIC'S SENTIMENT, I FEEL LIKE I UNDERSTAND BRINGING THINGS INTO COMPLIANCE FOR THE TOWN'S ENFORCEMENT, BUT ADDING A USE THAT DIDN'T ALREADY EXIST IS CREATING AN EXTRA LAYER OF GOVERNMENT THAT I'M NOT NECESSARILY IN FAVOR OF, BECAUSE WHILE IT'S NOT TO BURDEN THESE BUSINESS OWNERS, THERE'S NO OTHER WAY BUT TO SAY IT'S GONNA BE BURDENSOME.
DID WE TALK ABOUT THE COST FOR THE APPLICATION LAST WEEK? WAS THAT IT'S A HUNDRED DOLLARS.
I'M ENDED UP HAVING TO ATTEND OVER MY PHONE, SO I'M JUGGLING BACK AND FORTH.
BUT SHE SAID IT'S, UM, A $100 APPLICATION FOR THE OUTDOOR SPACE.
BUT THE ALTERNATIVE IS THAT THEY ALL REMAIN IN VIOLATION.
UM, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT RESTAURANTS, CAFE OR FOOD ESTABLISHMENTS.
SO WE HAVE OUTDOOR ENTERTAINMENT VENUES IN TOWN, ESPECIALLY DOWNTOWN.
AND I CAN THINK OF ONE PARTICULAR PROBABLY HAS GREATER SEATING OUTSIDE THAN IT DOES INSIDE, BUT THIS WOULD NOT BE APPLICABLE TO THAT.
THIS IS FOR, BECAUSE THEY DON'T SERVE FOOD.
RIGHT, BUT THEY DO SERVE BEVERAGES.
IT'S NOT NO, NO, IT'S NOT A CAFE.
I, THEY MIGHT SELL A BAG AND CHIP.
SO HE'S, HE'S CLASSIFIED AS WHAT A MUSEUM.
BUT IF HE EVER WANTED TO ADD AN ELEMENT OF FOOD IN, AND HE'S A RESTAURANT, A CAFE OR WHATEVER, THEN THIS COULD, I MEAN, 50, HE'S OVER 50% OUTSIDE RIGHT NOW.
BUT THE POINT IS THAT IT REMAINS AN ACCESSORY, THAT IT IS INCIDENTAL.
I MEAN, I, I KNOW HOW I THINK, I THINK IT'S A GUIDE LINE.
YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOT GOING, YOU'RE NOT GONNA GET A BOILER PLATE TO FIT EVERY SITUATION.
IF THIS IS A STICKING POINT, YOU CAN REMOVE THE 50% CAST.
SO THE WHOLE POINT OF THESE PERFORMANCE STANDARDS WAS THAT IT WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT STAFF CAN EASILY ENFORCE AND THAT IT'S SOMETHING THAT THE RESTAURANT OWNER, THE PROPERTY OWNER CAN
[00:50:01]
LOOK AT.AND IT'S LIKE, OKAY, THIS IS A SIMPLE PROCESS.
WE WANNA HAVE OUTDOOR SEATING.
WE CAN COME, WE CAN GET A ZONING PERMIT.
THEY CAN HAVE, WE'LL CALCULATE OUT THE AMOUNT THAT THEY CAN HAVE, UM, BUT THAT THEY CAN REMOVE THE 50% IF YOU WANT.
BUT WE'RE JUST STATING SEATING CANNOT BLOCK THE BUILDING EXITS, EMERGENCY ESCAPE ROUTES OR FIRE EQUIPMENT.
THAT'S EASY FOR STAFF TO GO THERE AND SEE.
WE CAN CHECK AND SAY, OKAY, IT'S NOT BLOCKING ANYTHING.
DOES THIS COME ABOUT? BECAUSE THERE'S CURRENTLY AN ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE ENFORCE BECAUSE THE, THE PREMISES NOW, SO STAFF HAS SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN ENFORCE AND REGULATE.
BUT WAS THERE AN ISSUE WITH OUTDOOR SEATING THAT'S CAUSING EVERY BUSINESS, IT CAME ABOUT TO NOW HAVE TO HAVE MEASURES FOR ENFORCEMENT.
SO YES, WE'VE HAD RESTAURANTS COME TO US WITH CONCEPTS THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO DO.
WHEN WE REVIEWED THE ORDINANCE, I CAN'T EXPLAIN WHY OTHER PEOPLE HAVE IT ALREADY, BUT WHEN WE REVIEWED WHAT THEY WERE PROPOSING, WE NOTICED THAT WE TRULY DON'T ADDRESS THIS IN OUR CODE.
AND WHETHER IT'S TODAY OR IN TWO YEARS, IS THIS IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF RESTAURANTS.
I, AGAIN, I, WE CANNOT EXPLAIN HOW AND WHY THE OTHER ONES DO, BUT WHEN YOU READ THE CODE, IT'S NOT CURRENTLY IN THERE.
SO WE WANT TO ADD IT AS THIS ACCESSORY USE.
IT CAME ABOUT BECAUSE SOMEBODY WAS ASKING ABOUT A POTENTIAL CONCEPT AND THEY WANTED TO BE COMPLIANT, AND WE DON'T HAVE A WAY FOR THEM TO DO IT WITHOUT HAVING THIS ORDINANCE IN PLACE.
BUT LIKE, WHAT, I'M NOT UNDER, I GUESS I'M JUST, I'M BEING DENSE ABOUT THIS, BUT I FEEL LIKE, OKAY, YOU'RE OPENING UP A RESTAURANT.
TO ME, OUTDOOR DOOR DOES NOT MATTER, BUT IT MATTERS IN OUR CODE BECAUSE IT SAYS, WELL, I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND YOU CAN PUT IT IN THERE.
I'M NOT SAYING YOU WOULDN'T PUT IT IN THERE, THAT THERE WOULD STILL BE THESE, SOME OF THESE PERFORMANCE STANDARDS COULD STILL BE IMPORTANT, BUT FOR SOMEBODY TO HAVE TO PAY EXTRA, UM, AND THAT THE RATIONALE OF THAT, THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BUILDING CODE AND, AND, UM, AND ZONING CODE.
WELL, TO ME, I MEAN, IT'S JUST LIKE YOU'VE GOTTA COMPLY WITH THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT.
YOU'VE GOTTA COMPLY WITH DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
SO TO ME, IT, THEY COULD HAVE OUTDOOR DINING JUST AS PART OF THEIR REGULAR USE.
THEY CAN'T, BECAUSE OUR CODE EXPLICITLY PROHIBITS THEM FROM DOING THAT BECAUSE IT'S CAN WE CHANGE THE CODE? WHICH IS WHAT I'M ASKING YOU TO DO.
THAT IS THE ASK IS TO CHANGE THE CODE SO THAT THEY CAN DO THIS.
WELL, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ADDING AN ACCESSORY OR AUXILIARY USE.
I'M TALKING ABOUT ADDING IT TO THE DEFINITION OF A COMMERCIAL RESTAURANT OR EATERY.
I, YEAH, I SEE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING NOW, BECAUSE THIS IS CREATING, I GUESS WE'RE CREATING STANDARDS, BUT I, I AGREE WITH WHAT MELISSA'S SAYING.
IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW, I DON'T SEE THE BIG EFFECT.
AND FOR HERE IN TOWN ANYWAYS, I'M SPEAKING AGAIN, SPEAKING FROM A FRONT ROW PERSPECTIVE, A BULLET, YOU KNOW, THING.
SO AGAIN, IF I GO TO SOME OF THESE RESTAURANTS, IF IT'S NICE, I'LL SIT OUTSIDE.
IF THAT'S, IF IT'S NOT NICE, I'LL SIT IN, I'LL SIT INSIDE.
I DON'T THINK OF ANY DIFFERENCE OF, OF THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE, I UNDERSTAND THEY, LIKE YOU SAID, THEY HAVE BUILDING CODES.
THEY ALREADY HAVE TO QUALITY OR THEY HAVE, SO IF IT'S, IF THERE IS NO LAW THAT SAYS THAT THEY CAN'T DO IT, BUT YET THERE'S NO LAW, WE DON'T HAVE ANY ORDINANCE, OR EXCUSE ME, THERE'S ORDINANCES, THEY CAN'T DO IT, BUT WE DON'T HAVE ANY ORDINANCE AND THERE'S AN ORDINANCE THAT SAYS THEY CAN'T DO IT.
OUR ORDINANCE SPECIFICALLY STATES FOR COMMERCIAL USES, THEY MUST TAKE PLACE COMPLETELY ENCLOSED WITHIN THE BUILDING.
SO WHAT THAT DOES IS PROHIBIT ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF THAT BUILDING.
SO OUTSIDE THE PUTTING CHAIRS AND TABLES OUTSIDE OF THAT BUILDING IS EXPANDING THE USE OUTSIDE OF THAT ENCLOSURE, OUTSIDE OF THAT STRUCTURE.
SO THE ASK HERE IS SIMPLY TO JUST PERMIT THE OUTDOOR DINING.
I THINK WE ALL WANNA GET TO THE SAME PLACE.
I THINK THAT YOU'RE THINKING THERE'S SOME OTHER MECHANISM AND FROM A ZONING STANDPOINT, STAFF IS NOT NECESSARILY SEEING IT.
I MEAN, WE COULD LOOK AT AMENDING THE DEFINITION OF RESTAURANT.
THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT I THINK THAT, AND I THINK THAT'S, I THINK THAT'S WHAT HUNDRED WOULD AGREE.
WE HAVE A RESTAURANT THAT'S BEEN DOING THIS FOR FOUR DECADES.
AND THEN, AND, AND THEN WHEN WE USE THE GUYS, IT'S FOR TOWN TO HAVE ENFORCEMENT AND PERFORMANCE STANDARDS.
IT'S LIKE, OKAY, SO WE'RE OPENING THE DOOR AND PAYING TO HAVE A TARGET ON US FOR SOMETHING THAT'S WORKED SUCCESSFULLY FOR 40 YEARS.
AND I JUST HAS THE POWER TO WAIVE THE FEE.
HOW WE'RE GONNA, I MEAN THE, EVEN THE 50%, HOW'S THAT GOING TO BE? I MEAN, I KNOW RESTAURANTS ARE IN ONE SPOT IN PARTICULAR, OFF MY HEAD, I'M PRETTY SURE, UH, THAT COULD PROBABLY FIT MORE THAN HALF OF THEIR PEOPLE OUTSIDE
[00:55:01]
COMPARED TO THE INSIDE.SO THERE'S, THE OTHER THING YOU'RE GETTING INTO IS OCCUPANCY.
SO WE SPOKE WITH THE FIRE MARSHAL AND WITH BUILDING, THAT'S WHAT I'M GETTING AT.
AND THERE'S CODE, THERE'S BUILDING CODE THAT, THAT HAS, THAT HAS TO BE DEALT WITH.
AGAIN, I THINK THAT RIGHT THERE WITH THAT PERCENTAGE, YOU'RE, I THINK, I THINK THAT THE TOWN'S KIND OF MUR IN WITH THAT, WHAT'S ALREADY SET.
'CAUSE THEY ALREADY HAVE CAPACITY.
I MEAN, EVEN OUTSIDE THERE, IT IS A POSE AREA.
THERE'S ALREADY CAPACITIES FOR WHAT THEY CAN ALLOW FOR EXIT, YOU KNOW, THINGS LIKE THAT FOR ZONING.
SO I'M GONNA GO WITH COUNCILWOMAN DEAN, MONICA PAY AND COUNCILWOMAN MORRIS ON THIS.
I, I THINK IT'S WHAT'S THERE IS GREAT, BUT I THINK IT'D BE EASIER, JUST CHANGE THE DEFINITION OF WHAT WE ALLOW FOR RESTAURANT CAFE.
YOU DON'T WANT PERFORMANCE STANDARDS.
AND I THINK YOU COULD STILL HAVE SOME OF THOSE PERFORMANCE STANDARDS BECAUSE I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY YOU, YOU WANT THE SEATING CANNOT BLOCK BUILDING EXITS WHERE, AND YOU, YOU DON'T WANT THEM TO INFRINGE UPON THE SIDEWALK IF IT DOESN'T BELONG TO THEM.
YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE'S STILL PERFORMANCE STANDARDS TO BE HAD.
I'M NOT SAYING THAT THAT SHOULD NOT BE THERE.
I'M JUST SAYING THAT I DON'T THINK IT IS AN SEPARATE ACCESSORY USE OR WHATEVER, OR AN AUXILIARY USE, WHATEVER TERMINOLOGY YOU WANNA USE.
IT'S A RESTAURANT AND THEY CAN EAT INSIDE OR OUTSIDE AND THEY DON'T HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, I, AND I UNDERSTAND YOU'RE SAYING THEY CAN WAIVE THE FEE, BUT I JUST DON'T THINK THAT THEY NEED TO JUMP INTO ANY MORE HOOPS IF THEY OWN THE PROPERTY, UM, OR HAVE PERMISSION AS A TENANT.
UM, SO, BUT MR. PETTY, WELL IF THE FEE SOUNDS LIKE IT'S TO OFFSET STAFF'S REVIEW OF THEIR PLANS.
AND THE PROBLEM IS ONCE WE GET INTO THE ABILITY OF WAIVING THE FEES COUNSEL SEEING THIS WITH URBAN GUTTER WAIVERS AND MULTIPLE OTHER FEES THAT THE TOWN HAS, AND THEN IT'S UP TO EACH COUNCIL GOING FORWARD TO DECIDE WHICH ONES THEY PICK AND CHOOSE TO WAIVE THE FEE FOR.
SO IT'S LIKE, WHY CHARGE THE FEE IF IT CAN BE WAIVED? BUT ALSO I GET IT'S FOR STAFF'S TIME, BUT WE'RE ADDING THIS EXTRA LAYER OF GOVERNMENT THAT'S GOING TO COST STAFF'S TIME, WHICH IS THE TAXPAYER'S DOLLARS.
I'M NOT OPPOSED TO HAVING PERFORMANCE STANDARDS, WHAT I'M, AND I WANNA ENCOURAGE OUTDOOR EATING, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT JUST SEEMS LIKE IT'S GOING TO BE SUCH A BURDEN FOR ALL OF THE BUSINESSES WHO HAVE ALREADY SUCCESSFULLY IMPLEMENTED THIS FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.
AND I FEEL LIKE THEY DO HAVE TO ABIDE BY THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT STANDARDS AND THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT'S INSPECTING ALL AREAS THAT ARE IN EATERY.
THAT'S WHY I'M SUGGESTING, AND WHAT I WOULD PROPOSE IS TO CHANGE THE DEFINITION OF WHAT A COMMERCIAL RESTAURANT IS, INSTEAD OF ADDING AN AUXILIARY USE TO IT.
WHY CAN'T IT JUST ALL BE DEFINED AS A RESTAURANT? MR. PETTY, DID YOU, WERE YOU, UH, YEAH, SO THE INTENT BEHIND THIS AS WELL, AND THIS IS WHAT I WAS JUST TALKING TO MR. SONNET ABOUT.
THE ONE THING WE DON'T WANT TO DO IS DISRUPT ANYBODY WHO'S ALREADY DOING THIS AGAIN.
THEY'VE ALREADY BEEN DOING IT.
YOU KNOW, WE WOULD TRY AND LOOK, WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT AN INVENTORY OF WHAT EVERYBODY CURRENTLY HAS THAT WOULD NOT REQUIRE A NEW PERMIT.
THIS IS ANYTHING MOVING FORWARD.
THAT WAS THE INTENT BEHIND THIS.
AGAIN, WE CAN'T EXPLAIN HOW AND WHY THOSE THINGS ARE.
WE CAN DETERMINE WHETHER ACCESSORY USES ARE VESTED, NON-CONFORMING, ET CETERA.
AGAIN, WE'VE HAD PEOPLE APPROACH US ABOUT DOING NEW INFRASTRUCTURE IN OUR CODE CURRENTLY DOESN'T ALLOW IT.
SO THE NEW IS WHO WE'D BE FORCING THE, WE, THEY WOULD HAVE TO GET PERMITS ANYTIME THEY MAKE SOME KIND OF CHANGE OR ALTERATION, THEY HAVE TO GET A ZONING PERMIT, WHETHER THEY'RE AN EXISTING BUSINESS AND THEY'VE BEEN HERE 200 YEARS OR IF THEY'VE BEEN HERE TWO WEEKS.
RIGHT? SO THE BUSINESS, THEY CHANGE SOMETHING, THEY PUT UP A TWO BY FOUR, THEY HAVE TO GET ZONING CLEARANCE FROM PLANNING AND ZONING.
IT'S NOT TO BE OVERBURDENSOME, THAT IS JUST HOW ZONING WORKS.
SO IS THERE A WAY TO GRANDFATHER ANYONE WHO'S CURRENTLY HAS OUTSIDE WHAT WE'D BE DOING, BUT WE NEED THE ORDINANCE IN PLACE SO I CAN DO IT.
I KNOW THIS IS FRUSTRATING, BUT, BUT IT, IT, WE ARE THE ONES THAT GET THE QUESTIONS.
SO WE'RE JUST TRYING REALLY HARD TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE DOING OUR DUE DILIGENCE TO, TO NOT BURDEN OUR BUSINESSES OR RESTAURANTS ANYMORE THAN WHAT THEY MAY ALREADY FEEL.
SO WE WILL MOVE ON TO THE NEXT SLIDE.
THIS WAS JUST A, AND MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE PUT THIS FIRST.
THIS IS WHAT THIS ORDINANCE DOES.
IT RECOGNIZES OUTDOOR DINING AS A LEGITIMATE USE.
IT RESOLVES THE ENCLOSED BUILDING CONFLICT, WHICH IS CURRENTLY WITHIN OUR CODE.
AND IT ALLOWS FOR COMPLIANCE OF OUTDOOR DINING BY RIGHT ON QUALIFYING PRIVATE PROPERTY, NOT TOWN PROPERTY.
GIVES STAFF OBJECTIVE STANDARDS SO THAT WHEN WE GO OUT THERE, WE CAN SAY, YES, THIS IS IN COMPLIANCE.
AND THEN IT WOULD JUST BRING EVERYBODY INTO LEGAL COMPLIANCE SO THAT THEY'RE NOT TECHNICALLY
[01:00:01]
IN VIOLATION OF THE CODE.EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE NOT SENT OUT LETTERS, WE HAVE NOT SENT ANY VIOLATION NOTICES OUT TO ANY OF THEM.
BUT WHAT IT DOES NOT DO IS IT DOES NOT MAKE IT A PRINCIPAL USE BECAUSE YOU START MUDDYING THE WATERS WITH ZONING.
UM, DOES NOT AUTHORIZE UNLIMITED OUTDOOR SEATING.
IT DOESN'T WAIVE BUILDING CODE OR NOISE REQUIREMENTS.
THOSE ARE PART OF THE STANDARDS THAT WE BUILT IN.
AND IT DOESN'T AUTHORIZE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY USE, AND IT DOESN'T CREATE ANY SPECIAL USE PERMIT PROCESSES OR ANYTHING OVERBURDENSOME OR CUMBERSOME.
SO PRIVATE OR THIS AGAIN, PRIVATE PROPERTY, PUBLIC PROPERTY, THEY NEED A RIGHT OF WAY UTILIZATION PERMIT OR HARMLESS ENCROACHMENT LICENSE.
THOSE ARE SOMETHING THAT WE WOULD TAKE CARE OF ADMINISTRATIVELY.
THIS IS JUST FOR PRIVATE PROBLEM.
SO I THINK IT WAS A YEAR AGO THAT HISTORICAL SOCIETY HOSTED A, A FUNDRAISING EVENT ON THEIR GROUNDS AND IT'S CATERED.
THIS WOULDN'T BE APPLICABLE TO THAT.
'CAUSE THAT'S A TEMPORARY THING ON PRIVATE PROPERTY, AND IT'S NOT A RESTAURANT ALREADY.
ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FROM COUNCIL? WELL, I, I MEAN, I, I REALLY, I STILL LIKE WHAT AMBER MENTIONED OF CHANGING THE CODE TO MAKE IT TO, TO MAKE THE OUTDOOR A PIECE OF THE RESTAURANT.
THAT DOESN'T CHANGE THE, THE COMMERCIAL USE IN MY, IN MY MIND, YOUR RESTAURANT.
BUT YOU KNOW, YOU WHAT OTHERS.
AND ALSO ALSO, I, I, WHEN I SENT OUT THE NOTE, I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THE SIDEWALK.
THOUGHT ABOUT HOW, HOW THEY'RE ENCROACHED, HOW THEY MAY BE, YOU USE THE SIDEWALK CLEARANCE AS A PERFORMANCE STANDARD THAT YEAH.
SO WE HAVE TO HAVE THE RIGHT LINE.
SO THIS DOES NOT ADDRESS, THEY CANNOT UTILIZE THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY FOR THEIR OUTDOOR DINING UNLESS THEY COME TO COUNCIL WHERE THEY FOLLOW THAT HOLD HARMLESS LICENSE, YOU KNOW, ENCROACHMENT LICENSE.
SO THE CHARTER, NOT THE ZONING ORDINANCE SAYS THAT YOU AS COUNSEL HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, ELIMINATE ANY ENCROACHMENT WITHIN THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY, WHICH WOULD INCLUDE TABLES, CHAIRS, HOUSES, FENCES, ANYTHING.
AND THE TOWN CODE PROHIBITS OBSTRUCTIONS ON THE SIDEWALK OR IN THE ROADWAY OR ALLEY.
SO THEY MAY, YOU KNOW, IF ONE COMES, THEY CAN DO A LICENSE AGREEMENT WITH THE TOWN AND COUNCIL WOULD HAVE TO APPROVE THAT.
SO, BUT THE SIDEWALKS ARE PUBLIC.
SO I, I THINK WE USE AN EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, THERE IS ONE BUSINESS ON MAIN STREET WHERE THEY HAVE OUTDOOR SEATING.
IT DOES NOT GO BEYOND THEIR PROPERTY LINE AND THEN BEYOND THEIR PROPERTY LINE AS THE SIDEWALK.
NOW THAT SEATING WASN'T THERE.
IT WOULD LOOK LIKE A, ALONG A LARGER SIDEWALK.
BUT THE PROBLEM IS THEY OWN HALF OF IT THEIR PROPERTY.
SO THEY'RE, THEY'RE HAVING SEATING ON THAT.
BUT THE PUBLIC SIDEWALK, WHICH IS IN THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY, IS SHOULD BE, THERE SHOULDN'T BE ANYTHING IN THERE.
UM, SO WE'RE TRYING TO BE VERY SPECIFIC THAT THIS IS PRIVATE PROPERTY, YOU KNOW, THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY JUST HAS A DIFFERENT PROCESS.
AND THAT'S BECAUSE IT'S THE PUBLIX, IT'S NOT JUST THE TOWN AND IT'S THE PUBLIC.
AND THAT'S THE SAME THING WITH ALLEYS, RIGHT? IF BUSINESSES CORRECT HAVE ACCESS TO ALLEYS, THEY, THEY, THAT IS THE PUBLIX'S.
IT IT'S PROPERTY INGRESS AND EGRESS.
SO WE WANNA, THE PUBLIC, WE, WHETHER IT'S A SIDEWALK, AN ALLEY OR ROAD.
WE'RE, WE'RE TRYING, YOU KNOW, TO EDUCATE A LITTLE BIT MORE ON OUR PUBLIC RIGHT.
OF WAYS, WHETHER IT IS OVERGROWN VEGETATION, SIGNAGE, FURNITURE, SNOW, ANYTHING IN THAT PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY.
HOW WE, HOW THAT HAS TO BE ENFORCED.
UM, BECAUSE THAT IT IS, IT'S THE PUBLIC.
SO I AM, I AM NOT CONFIDENT THAT I, THAT THIS COUNCIL, OR I MEAN, HAVE WE REACHED A POINT WHERE WE'RE READY TO TAKE ACTION ON THIS? OR DOES THIS COUNCIL WANT DIFFERENT INFORMATION OR DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, I, I MEAN, I I, I'VE ALWAYS BEEN A FAN OF NOT TAKING SOMETHING TO A VOTE.
IF, YOU KNOW, IF THERE'S STILL ENOUGH QUESTIONS THAT ALL WE'RE GONNA DO IS WASTE OUR TIME BY TAKING A VOTE.
IF PEOPLE AREN'T OKAY WITH THINGS AS THEY'RE WRITTEN, IT WON'T DO US ANY GOOD TO, WE'LL BE, DO US ANY GOOD TO KILL SOMETHING AND THEN COME BACK AND SAY, LET'S CHANGE IT AGAIN.
SO THAT'S ALL I, THAT'S ALL I'M TRYING TO SAY.
[01:05:01]
YOU ALL, UM, MS. KAKI, HAVE YOU TALKED TO ANY DOWNTOWN BUSINESS OWNERS? AND AS FAR AS I KNOW, THE ONES I'VE SPOKEN TO ARE IN FAVOR OF THIS.THEY'VE ASKED FOR, I DON'T, CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THEY WOULD ASK FOR IT? I, BECAUSE THEY HAVE, THEY WOULD LIKE TO HAVE OUTDOOR SEATING AND BECAUSE THEY CAME TO US AND SAID, HEY, WE'D LIKE TO DO OUTDOOR SEATING, AND WE COULD NOT ISSUE THEM A ZONING PERMIT.
WE COULDN'T, THEY COULDN'T FIND NOBODY'S EXISTING OUTDOOR SEATING HAS BEEN IN FAVOR OF THIS.
WHAT WAS I, SO IS THERE, HAVE YOU TALKED TO ANYBODY WITH EXISTING OUTDOOR SEATING? NO.
HER, HER QUESTION WAS, PEOPLE WITH EXISTING OUTDOOR SEATING MAY NOT BE IN FAVOR OF THIS, ALTHOUGH, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING WITH IT.
IT IS NOT GONNA AFFECT THEM, IS WHAT I'M NOT MAKING THEM PULL PERMITS.
WE'RE NOT MAKING THEM DO ANYTHING OTHER THAN CONTINUE DOING WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
SO THIS IS, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN, I GUESS I'M CONFUSED BECAUSE LAST MONDAY WHEN I ASKED IF WE COULD GRANDFATHER THEM IN, WE WERE TOLD NO, BECAUSE THEN THEY WOULDN'T BE IN COMPLIANCE.
SO THAT'D BE A NON, THEY'RE NOT IN, THEY'RE, IT'S NOT THAT THEY'RE, IT'S NOT, THEY'RE IN VIOLATION.
THE, THE ORDINANCE DOESN'T ALLOW IT.
SO THIS BRINGS THEM INTO COMPLIANCE.
SO IF I MISSPOKE, I APOLOGIZE, BUT THEY ARE IN VIOLATION OF THE TOWN CODE RIGHT NOW.
THEY'RE VIOLATING THE TOWN CHARTER AT THIS POINT.
LIKE WE, THIS IS TO BRING THEM INTO COMPLIANCE.
SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT IF THIS COUNCIL WERE TO TAKE ACTION ON AND SUPPORT THIS, THEN EVEN ALL THE BUSINESSES THAT ALREADY HAVE OUTDOOR SEATING, THEN EVERYBODY, THEM AND ANYBODY NEW THAT APPLIES FOR IT WILL BE IN COMPLIANCE.
BUT AS OF RIGHT NOW, ANYBODY WHO HAS OUTDOOR SEATING IN THE TOWN OF FRONT ROYAL IS VIOLATION OF THE TOWN CODE AND THE CHARTER.
AND NOBODY THAT'S COMING IN NOW WANTING TO EXPAND OR OFFER THIS IS ABLE TO, OKAY.
AND THAT'S NOT JUST A JOHN AND I THING.
THAT'LL BE ANY ZONING ADMINISTRATOR THAT READS THAT.
THEY'RE GONNA READ THAT THE SAME WAY BECAUSE THE CODE IS VERY CLEAR.
THE USE MUST BE CONTAINED WITHIN THE STRUCTURE.
AND SO, BUT YOU CAN STILL HAVE THAT SAME OUTCOME, RIGHT? IF YOU, IF YOU CHANGE THE CODE, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ASKING YOU.
NO, I MEAN, BUT YOU'RE CHANGE THE DEFINITION.
SO IF YOU NO LONGER HAVE TO BE INDOORS FOR A RESTAURANT, CORRECT, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE ALL YOUR FOOD PREP OUTSIDE, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE ALL YOUR COOKING INFRASTRUCTURE OUTSIDE, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE ALL YOUR FOOD STORAGE OUTSIDE.
WELL, I MEAN WE NEED, THAT'S WHERE YOU PUT YOUR PERFORMANCE STANDARDS IN LIKE PROCEED.
WELL, YOU DON'T WANNA BECOME WITH A 50%.
THIS IS, I MEAN THIS IS FOR SEATING THOUGH.
THE IDEA IS TO DEF, TO REDEFINE WHAT A RESTAURANT IS SUCH THAT THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT THAT IT BE WITHIN A STRUCTURE.
YOU GOTTA THINK OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS, I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT WE SAID.
I THINK WE SAID TO INCLUDE OUTDOOR USE, BUT YEAH.
WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? WELL, THIS, THIS, AND IF YOU GO TO MANY OF THE MEXICAN RESTAURANTS IN TOWN THAT MAKE TABLESIDE ROCKS, THEY WOULD BRING THE FOOD OUT TO YOUR TABLE AND PREPARE THAT.
I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BE ADDING GOVERNMENT TO THAT.
SO PRINCIPLE PERMITTED USE VERSUS ACCESSORY USE, RIGHT? IT'S, IT'S LIKE, IT'S ONE OF THE FUNDAMENTAL CONCEPTS IN ZONING AS THE PLANNING DIRECTOR TRIED TO EXPLAIN, YOU HAVE TO MAINTAIN YOUR USES, OTHERWISE YOU'RE LOST IN ZONING AND BECAUSE YOU'RE EATING OUTSIDE, YOU'VE LOST THE RESTAURANT.
WELL I CAN'T JUST BE A ABOUT RIGHT USE, THAT'S WHAT THE RESTAURANT ITSELF IS BY.
BUT OUTDOOR, SHE, WHY CAN'T OUTDOOR SHE JUST BE A BY NOT YOU ON PLANNING COMMISSION.
IT'S AN ACCESSORY TO THE PRIMARY.
IT'S INSUBORDINATE INCIDENTAL TO IT.
IT'S NOT, I I KNOW THAT, BUT I DON'T, MAYBE I'M, I DON'T KNOW.
I JUST, I DON'T, TO ME IT'S JUST, YEAH, IT WASN'T THE PLANNING COMMISSION.
BUT I'M JUST SAYING, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, OUT THERE, YOU KNOW, FLIPPING HIBACHI OUT THERE ON THE, ON THE SIDEWALK AND STUFF.
I'M TALKING ABOUT THIS PRIMARILY WITH SEATING, YOU KNOW, AND ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS, I WOULD THINK JUST ADD A LINE OR SOMETHING TO SAY, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE ALLOWED TO HAVE THIS SEATING WITHIN.
I, I LIKE COUNCIL, YOU, ME
[01:10:01]
LET IT BE THAT, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, IT'S NOT REALLY ANY DIFFERENT WHAT WE'RE ADDRESSING.THAT'S WHAT, THAT'S WHAT WE, I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S IN FRONT OF YOU.
THE ONLY, THE ONLY CONDITION IS THAT IT CAN'T BE MORE THAN THE PRIMARY USE.
AND THAT'S AN EASY WAY TO MEASURE IT.
SO HOW WHEN WE SIT THERE AND SAY, HOW IS IT INCIDENTAL? WELL, LESS THAN 50% MEANS IT'S NOT MORE THAN THE PRIMARY.
SO 50% GAVE US A CUTOFF IF IT'S LESS THAN 50%, OKAY, THAT'S CLEARLY INCIDENTAL.
WHEREAS IF YOU START GOING 60%, 70%, WELL, IS THAT THE PRIMARY USE NOW OR IS THAT INCIDENTAL AND SUBORDINATE TO IT? IT'S NOT.
IT WAS JUST TO GIVE US A WAY TO MEASURE THIS DOES NOT IMPACT THEIR AMOUNT OF TAXES THEY'RE PAYING YOU.
IT, IT, THIS, THIS IS NOT TO HARM THEM IN ANY WAY.
THIS IS LITERALLY BY THE MECHANISM.
SO THEY CAN KEEP DOING WHAT THEY'RE DOING OR OTHER BUSINESSES CAN ADD ON AND OFFER THIS AS PART OF THEIR RESTAURANT.
IT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN THE ADUS.
SO Y'ALL, YEAH, IT'S NO DIFFERENT.
I'M QUITE HAPPY WITH THIS, THE WAY IT'S WRITTEN.
SO AT THIS POINT, UM, WELL FOR ONE THING IT CAN'T GO TO A PUBLIC HEARING THIS MONTH ANYWAY.
IT WOULD HAVE TO BE A PUBLIC HEARING IN SEPTEMBER.
I WOULD ALSO SAY THAT IF IT WERE COUNSEL'S DIRECTION TO AMEND THE RESTAURANT DEFINITION, THAT WOULD'VE TO GO BACK TO PLANNING COMMISSION.
I THINK IT'S A PRETTY SUBSTANTIAL CHANGE FROM WHERE WE ARE NOW.
UM, WE'RE MAKING IT LESS RESTRICTIVE IN THE SENSE OF, YOU KNOW, THE SECURED VERSUS TAKING INSIDE THE DEFINITION.
SO I THINK WHERE WE ARE CURRENTLY WITH THE WAY IT'S WRITTEN, WE COULD CONTINUE TO MOVE THIS FORWARD WITH A POTENTIAL PUBLIC HEARING IN SEPTEMBER.
UM, WE CAN BRING THAT, WE CAN MAKE SURE IT'S CLEANED UP TO ITS FINAL FORM AT THE FIRST SEPTEMBER MEETING FOR ADVERTISEMENT.
BUT IF AT THAT POINT COUNSEL STILL IN THE POSITION, YOU'D LIKE TO SEE THE RESTAURANT DEFINITION OR SOMETHING ELSE CHANGE, I THINK AT THAT POINT IT WOULD JUST HAVE TO GO BACK TO PLANNING COMMISSION TO RATE A NEW DRAFT.
'CAUSE IT'S A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT CHANGE THAN JUST THE AMENDED.
WELL THERE, THERE ARE TWO POINTS I'M GOING CONCEDE ON THIS.
UH, THAT ONE, YOU KNOW, I, WHAT I GUESS WE ALL AS ACCOUNTS ABOUT THE WHOLE, WE GO FROM ONE BUSINESS OWNER REALLY DIDN'T HAVE ANY OUTDOOR SEATING, BUT UH, THEY SAID THEY WERE OKAY WITH IT.
AND I ACTUALLY RAN INTO EM, UH, OVER THE WEEKEND OUTSIDE THE TOWN THERE.
AND HE, AND SPOKE TO THIS INDIVIDUAL AND I, I, I THANKED HIM FOR SENDING US THE EMAIL.
'CAUSE I, I WAS JUST, IT WAS REALLY WASN'T, THAT WASN'T ESTABLISHED, WASN'T REALLY APPLICABLE FOR IT.
BUT, UM, BUT I WAS GLAD HE, HE, HE CHOPPED IN AND UH, ANYWAY, SO HE SAID HE WAS OKAY WITH THIS.
SO I'LL, I'LL, I'LL, I'LL RENT, RENT THAT AND TWO, AS TO WHAT VICE MAYOR FEL WAS SAYING, I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION LAST WEEK AS WELL THAT WE WOULD BE STEPPING ON TOES OF THESE BUSINESSES ALREADY.
YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S WHY I TACKED ONTO TO WHAT COUNCILMAN WOOD SAID LAST WEEK.
YOU KNOW, WHY I, WHY ARE WE, YOU KNOW, KIND OF PUNCHING STRONG THAT WE'RE TRYING TO FIX.
SO THAT WAS, I WAS
I MEAN, WE BEEN ASKED, I MEAN, I, I'M OKAY WITH THIS.
I STILL HAVE A LITTLE INDIGESTION OVER THE 50% OF THE, I I DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE OF OUR CLIMATES HERE THAT WE'RE EVER GONNA SEE PREMIER OUTDOOR DINING.
I MEAN, IT'S GONNA BE TOO HOT THESE DAYS.
WE'RE GONNA EAT INSIDE AT POINT.
IT GETS TOO COLD OR IT'S RAINY.
I DON'T THINK IT'LL EVER COME TO BE, I MEAN, IT'D BE WONDERFUL IF WE HAD THE TYPE OF ATTRACTION A HUNDRED PEOPLE WANT TO EAT OUTSIDE AND 25% OF THE TIME, BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S GONNA HAPPEN IN OUR CLIMATE.
BUT I, I INTERRUPTED YOU AND I NO, NO, NO, I WAS LISTENING.
I I, I AGREE WITH YOUR POINT AND I'M, I'M WITH YOU ON IT.
LIKE I SAID, I'LL, I'LL, I'LL CONCEDE THAT, YOU KNOW, SO IF THOSE TWO POINTS, LIKE I SAID, SO I, I'M, I THINK COUNCIL WANTS SAY I, I TOO HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF A HEARTBURN NOW MORE WITH THE 50%, BUT, UM, BUT OTHER THAN THAT, I THINK, I THINK IT'S OKAY, ESPECIALLY IF, IF THE LOCAL BUSINESSES THAT HAVE ALREADY EXISTING ARE GONNA GET HARMED BY IT.
SO MAYOR, IF WE MIGHT GET A CONSENSUS, BECAUSE I, AND REFLECTING, I HEAR COUNCILMAN WOOD'S CONCERNS ABOUT THE CLIMATE, BUT RESPECTFULLY PAVEMENT WAS MORE THAN 50% OUTDOOR DINING WHEN IT SERVED AS A RESTAURANT AND THROUGHOUT THE WINTER THEY HAD HEATED IGLOOS OUT BACK, WHICH WAS OUTDOOR DINING.
AND SO WE WOULD OFTEN GO SIT IN THOSE WITH THE HEATER ON DURING THE WINTER TO HAVE OUTDOOR DINING STILL AND
[01:15:01]
MUSIC.SO I JUST WORRY THAT, THAT I, IF THIS IS GONNA MOVE FORWARD, I WOULD LIKE TO MOVE FORWARD WITH A DIFFERENT PERCENTAGE.
AT THE VERY LEAST HERE, Y'ALL CAN TELL ME I'M WRONG AND IT'S OKAY.
BUT I, I DON'T KNOW THAT I THINK THAT, THAT WE'VE ANSWERED EVERYTHING EVERY, IT SOUNDS LIKE SOME PEOPLE ARE GOOD, SOME PEOPLE STILL HAVE MORE QUESTIONS.
ARE, YOU KNOW, DO YOU ALL THINK IT WOULD BEHOOVE US TO TALK ABOUT IT AT THE FIRST AUGUST, FIRST SEPTEMBER WORK SESSION AGAIN, JUST TO CLEAN UP AFTER HEARING THINGS OR? WELL,
AND IF COUNCILMAN WOOD IS OKAY WITH THIS, WITH EXCEPTION, THE PERCENTAGE WISE, AND I'M OKAY WITH THIS, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF PERCENTAGE WISE, THERE'S THREE COUNCIL MEMBERS RIGHT THERE.
SO I'M OKAY, THE THREE PERCENTAGE WISE.
PERCENTAGE WISE, WOULD YOU JUST LIKE THAT LINE REMOVED? I MEAN, IF YOU TAKE IT PUBLIC HERE, YOU CAN AT LEAST GET FEEDBACK FROM THE PUBLIC, FROM THE BUSINESS OWNERS THEMSELVES.
AND THEN YOU CAN ALWAYS KEEP IT OPEN IF YOU NEED MORE INFORMATION OR MORE TIME.
WELL, VICE MAYOR AL WAS CORRECT.
I MEAN, AMY AND I WERE BIG PATRONS THAT, UH, UH, PAVEMENT, WE MISS IT A LOT AND ENJOYED SETTING OUT, UNLESS IT WAS UNDOUBTEDLY HOT OR UNDOUBTEDLY COLD
BUT, UH, Y YEAH, YOU COULD SEE ANOTHER, IT'S NOT HARD TO ENVISION ANOTHER RESTAURANT COMING IN THAT REALLY WORK ON THE OUTSIDE, ON THE OUTSIDE SEATING.
MAYBE, MAYBE A LONG HAPPY CU I, I DON'T KNOW.
BUT YEAH, THAT'S THE ONLY THING GIVING ME HEARTBURN AT THIS POINT IS S 50%.
DO YOU FEEL IT WOULD WORK, I MEAN THIS CAR A LOT RIGHT NOW? YEAH.
DO YOU FEEL IT WOULD WORK WITHOUT THE 50% IT WORK WITHOUT IT, THAT WAS JUST A MECHANISM FOR STAFF TO EASILY ACCESSORY USE IS DEFINED.
PRINCIPAL PERMITTED USE IS DEFINED.
SO WITHOUT GIVE US, WITHOUT THE 50%, YOU'RE STILL WORKING WITH THOSE DEFINITIONS? YEP.
WHICH IS THE ACCESSORY USE IS SUBORDINATE TO THE PRINCIPAL USE.
I JUST DON'T WANT TO SEE US TIMES MY HAND AN ENTREPRENEUR LIKE PAYMENT AND I FORGOT.
THANK YOU AMBER, FOR REMINDING THEM.
UM, I'VE FORGOTTEN ABOUT THAT ONE.
YEAH, THEY, THEY CAME TO MIND BECAUSE ALSO WHAT CAME TO MIND IS IF WE WANTED TO ATTRACT ANY MICRO BREWERY LIKE MYA, WHO HAS A LOT OF OUTDOOR SEATING, I JUST THINK TOO, WE GO OVER TO BEAR CHASE ON, ON BLUEMONT MOUNT WEATHER AREA.
SEE THEY ALSO COME UP WITH SOME PRETTY INGENUITY WAYS IN THE OFF SEASONS WHERE YOU CAN STILL ENJOY SETTING OUT WHILE BEING COVERED.
WHETHER THAT BE CATERING TENTS WITH HEAT.
UM, AND WE DO HAVE SOME UNIQUE PROPERTIES THAT ARE STILL IN THE TOWN LIMITS.
YOU MENTIONED HAPPY CREEK ROAD.
THERE'S A LOT OF DEVELOPMENT TO BE HAD EVEN LATE TO IN PARKWAY.
UM, SO I JUST THINK ABOUT THOSE UNIQUE SPACES THAT AREN'T YET DEVELOPED, BUT COULD BE DEVELOPED AND HOW IT WOULD IMPACT THEM AS WELL.
BECAUSE I DO WANNA ENCOURAGE, I, I SAID IT AS THE LAST WORK SESSION.
WE'LL EAT AT A, A LESS THAN GREAT CUISINE JUST TO HAVE A BETTER VIEW OR AMBIANCE FOR THE MEAL.
UM, OFTEN SO, AND BREWERIES WOULD NOT BE CLASSIFIED THE SAME AS A RESTROOM AND ZONING.
SO THIS DOES NOT IMPACT, THIS IS NOT DEALING WITH BREWERIES, WINERIES, THAT IS A DIFFERENT TYPE OF CLASS.
DOES, DOES MANCHESTER HAVE A PERCENTAGE FOR SPACE? UH, AS AN ACCESSORY? THEY'RE LIKE, FAIRFAX IS 50%.
THEY DEFINE OUTDOOR DINING AS AN ACCESSORY USE.
AND IT'S 50% THAT, THAT'S MY CONCERN.
IF WE DON'T, YOU KNOW, IT COULD, YOU'RE GONNA LOSE SOME CONTROL.
IF THE 50% COMES OFF THAT, OKAY, STAFF CAN STILL HANDLE IT, HAVE THE DEFINITION.
THE DEFINITION, BUT I, SO WHEN I GO, I WILL STILL, IF IT IS 50%, IT'S STILL SUBORDINATE AND INCIDENTAL TO THE PRIMARY USE.
I THINK THAT FIXES MOST OF OUR CONCERNS.
SO IF COUNSEL'S OKAY WITH, I MEAN I OBVIOUSLY WE'RE NOT GETTING CONSENSUS AS TO YES, YOU'RE GONNA VOTE FOR IT, NOT YOU'RE GONNA VOTE FOR IT, BUT JUST, IS IT READY TO TAKE IT TO A PUBLIC HEARING, IS WHAT I'M, I'M ASKING AND IT SOUNDS LIKE IT'S READY TO GO TO A PUBLIC HEARING IF, IF THAT LINE ABOUT 50% IS REMOVED? CORRECT.
SO THAT'S GONNA BE THE AUGUST 24TH? UH,
[01:20:01]
NO.WHY AM I SAYING THAT? SEPTEMBER.
WHAT'S IT GONNA BE
SO EIGHT SEVEN WOULD BE THE 28TH.
WELL, THERE'S 20TH TIME BETWEEN NOW AND THEN TO GET INPUT IF ANYBODY THINKS DIFFERENTLY.
THE WONDERFUL NEWS IS THAT ADJOURN, THAT IS THE LAST THING I TOLD MY HUSBAND.
I WAS LIKE, YOU GOTTA SHORTEN TONIGHT.
I'M GONNA BE, I WAS LOOKING FOR CLOSE.