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I AM GONNA CALL TO ORDER[Town Council Work Session on August 3, 2026.]
THE TOWN COUNCIL REGULAR WORK SESSION FOR MONDAY, AUGUST 3RD.AND, UH, MS. ONG, CAN YOU DO ROLL CALL? MAYOR RO HERE.
WE'RE REQUIRED TO JUST ASK YOU A COUPLE QUESTIONS.
WE JUST NEED YOU TO IDENTIFY WHERE YOU ARE AND WHY YOU'RE NOT HERE.
I'M, UH, I'M IN AUSTIN, TEXAS AND I'M ON A, UH, WORK TREATMENT.
ARE THERE ANY OBJECTIONS FROM COUNCIL TO ALLOW, UH, COUNCILMAN INGRAM TO PARTICIPATE REMOTELY? NO.
COUNCILMAN RAPPAPORT? COUNCILMAN
UM, OUR VERY FIRST ITEM IS A SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
IT'S THE ROTARY CLUB MCMI AT 37 WATER STREET.
AND THIS COULD BE BE GONNA BE TALKING US ABOUT THAT.
SO IF YOU REMEMBER, ANY TIME A SIGN OR AN ARTISTIC MURAL EXCEEDS 60 SQUARE FEET, IT CAN ONLY BE APPROVED BY A SPECIAL USE PERMIT OF UPON COUNSEL IN THIS CASE.
UM, MS. MURAL IS PROPOSED TO BE LOCATED AT 37 WATER STREET, WHICH IS RIGHT THERE AT THE CORNER OF COMMERCE AVENUE.
UM, THERE ARE THREE, I THINK THERE'S SPRUCE TREES RIGHT NOW.
ONE OF THEM IS IN THE TOWN'S RIGHT OF WAY, OR THE OTHER TWO ARE ON PRIVATE PROPERTY.
THE TWO ON PRIVATE PROPERTY CAN AUTOMATICALLY JUST COME DOWN.
UM, THAT THIRD ONE, UH, THE APPLICANT'S BEEN INTOX WITH PUBLIC WORKS TO KIND OF WORK SOMETHING OUT THERE.
UM, BUT THE MURAL WOULD BE PAINTED ACROSS, UH, THE FACADE OF THIS BUILDING.
AND WHAT THEY'RE PROPOSING IS, HAS SOMETHING, UM, REPRESENTING THE ROTARY CLUB SAID, BEEN POLIO.
IT'LL HAVE THE ACTUAL ROTARY SYMBOL, BUT, UM, IT'S, IT'S OBJECTIVE.
IT'S OUR, UH, SO YOU GUYS JUST NEED TO DECIDE IF YOU WANT TO, AT THIS CALL, AT THE MINIMUM.
HAS IT GONE TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION? YES.
AND THEY, UM, I DON'T THINK THERE THERE WERE ANY SPEAKERS THAT SIGNED UP TO SPEAK.
THEY HEARD IT WITHOUT CONDITIONS OR RECOMMENDED UNANIMOUS.
HE'S A, HE'S A ROTARY CLUB MEMBER FOR WARREN COUNTY.
NOT, UM, FRONT ROYAL ROTARY, BUT JUST THE ROTARIAN, NONETHELESS.
MURALS ON THE OTHER END DOWN CAR WASH.
DOES STAFF HAVE ANY CONCERNS? OKAY, ANY QUESTIONS? DO YOU KNOW IF THEY'RE PLANNING, PARDON ME, TO TAKE THOSE TREES DOWN IN FRONT OF IT? THEY WILL, THEY'LL HAVE TO.
SO THE TWO AND PRIVATE PROPERTY, THEY CAN JUST GO AHEAD AND CUT DOWN WHENEVER THEY'RE READY.
UM, BUT THE ONE ON THE TOWN'S PROPERTY IS IN THE TOWN'S RIGHT OF WAY.
THE APPLICANT'S BEEN SPEAKING WITH PUBLIC WORKS ABOUT REMOVING THAT ONE BECAUSE ONCE YOU REMOVE THE OTHER TWO, YOU'RE JUST GONNA HAVE A BARE, UH, FACE FERENCE TREE THAT'S FLAT ON ONE SIDE.
IT IS A BEAUTIFUL TREE THOUGH.
BUT OUR ACES, THEY ARE NON-NATIVE, SO THEY OH, REALLY? BECAUSE IT'S BRUCE, BECAUSE IT'S, I'M JUST CURIOUS, IS THAT OWNED BY, IS THAT OWNED BY KATHY WOLF OR IS IT OWNED BY THE BLUE RIDGE? UM, APPLICANT? YEAH, THE APPLICANT IS THE ROTARY CLERK PERFORM, BUT OBVIOUSLY HAVE THE, THEY HAVE PERMISSION OF BLUE RIDGE OPPORTUNITY AND THEY SIGNED THE APPLICATION, THE PROPERTY.
JUST OUTTA CURIOSITY, WE DON'T HAVE ANY KIND OF, UM, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY KIND OF LIKE LIMITS TO LIKE, MURALS THAT ARE LIKE ALL OVER THE TOWN? NOPE, THERE'S NO LIMITS,
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BUT ANYTHING, BUT AGAIN, ANYTHING OVER 60 FEET, THAT'S CASE BY CASE BASIS.YEAH, NO, I, I WAS, WELL THIS SAYS 55 FEET 8, 5 55 FEET.
OH, YOU SAY ANYTHING OVER 60 FEET, SQUARE FEET? ANYTHING OVER 60 FEET.
I'M SORRY, YOU DIDN'T SAY SQUARE FEET.
ANY QUESTIONS? HEY, IT IS EARLY ENOUGH IN A MONTH, IF YOU ALL ARE OKAY WITH THIS, WE, WE'D HAVE TO HAVE A PUBLIC HEARING, UM, AND THAT WE'D HAVE ENOUGH TIME FOR AUGUST 24TH.
I, I HAD HAVE, WHO DESIGNED IT? UH, THE ROTARY CLUB WORKED WITH THE ARTIST.
IT WAS, I KNOW THAT I SAW THIS JUST OUTTA CURIOSITY.
IS THE ARTIST LISTED THERE? IT MIGHT BE IN YOUR APPLICATION PACKET.
I DON'T THINK WE LISTED IT ON THAT.
I JUST, THE REASON WHY I'M SAYING I LIKE, I KNOW THAT SOME OF THE MURALS, LIKE, THERE, THERE WAS ANOTHER ONE WHERE IT WAS LIKE, IT LOOKED A CERTAIN WAY MM-HMM
AND DIDN'T QUITE LOOK LIKE THAT ONCE IT ENDED UP ON THE BUILDING.
SO I, I WAS JUST CURIOUS THOUGH.
IT DOESN'T STATE WHO THE NO, WHO THE ARTIST IS, BUT WE'RE ASSUMING IT'S GONNA LOOK LIKE THAT.
THIS IS WHAT THEY'VE TOLD US THEY'VE COMMISSIONED.
SO IF IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THIS, THEN WE'LL, YEAH, NO, I WAS JUST CURIOUS.
WE READY FOR THE NEXT ITEM? YEP.
SO NEXT IS THE ZONING ORDINANCE, AMENDMENT FOR OUTDOOR DINING AREAS.
SO THIS IS A TEXT AMENDMENT TO DEFINE OUTDOOR DINING IN 1 75 3 AND THEN PERMIT IT AS A USE IN THE DOWNTOWN BUSINESS DISTRICT.
AND THEN THE, UH,
UM, SO AN OUTDOOR DINING AREA WOULD BE AN OUTDOOR SPACE ON THE SAME LOT AS, OR CONTIGUOUS TO ILLEGALLY ESTABLISHED FOOD ESTABLISHMENT.
UM, SUCH AS A RESTAURANT OR CAFE USED FOR THE CONSUMPTION OF FOOD OR BEVERAGES.
ALL FURNITURE UMBRELLAS AND STRUCTURES MUST BE TEMPORARY UNATTACHED AND EASILY REMOVABLE AT THE END OF THE END OF DAILY BUSINESS HOURS.
UM, AND THEN WE HAVE OUR PERFORMANCE STANDARDS, WHICH SPEAK TO THE MAXIMUM SEATING AREA.
A DA ACCESSIBILITY EMERGENCY EXITS, UM, MAKING SURE THAT THERE'S PLENTY OF SEPARATION BETWEEN PEDESTRIANS AND VEHICLE VEHICULAR TRAFFIC, UM, NOISE MAINTENANCE, THINGS LIKE THAT.
SO PRIOR TO THIS, WE DO NOT HAVE PROVISIONS FOR OUTDOOR SEATING AREAS IN CONJUNCTION WITH RESTAURANTS.
SO EVEN IN THE DOWNTOWN AREA, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SOME, UM, THOSE ARE FROM THE COVID AREA, OR SORRY, COVID ERA.
UM, BUT THERE'S JUST NEVER BEEN ANY REGULATION TO UM, I GUESS NOT CONTROL IT, BUT TO, UH, REGULATE THIS.
UH, SO SOME OF THE PROPERTY OWNERS HAVE PRIVATE PROPERTY IN FRONT OF THEIR BUSINESS, OTHERS DO NOT.
SO WHAT WE'RE FINDING IS THAT SOME ARE PUTTING TABLES, SHARES, AUDIT PLANTS, THINGS LIKE THAT IN THE TOWNS RIGHT AWAY.
SO THIS IS JUST GIVING US THE ABILITY TO REGULATE THAT AND HAVE SOME CONTROL OVER IT.
AND THEN GIVING THEM THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE AN OUTDOOR SEATING AREA IF THEY CHOOSE TO
TOWN ATTORNEY, WE'VE GOT, WE HAVE RIGHT OF WAY UTILIZATION PERMITS.
WE HAVE WHOLE HARMLESS AGREEMENTS AND YOU KNOW, WE HAVE MULTIPLE ITEMS. SO WE HAVE BENCHES, WE HAVE
SO THIS IS, LET'S FIGURE OUT THE TABLES, THE CHAIRS, THE SEATING, UM, WITH THESE ALREADY EXISTING RESTAURANTS AND THEN WE'RE MEETING TO WORK ON THE OTHER STUFF.
ADMINISTRATIVELY THE QUESTION THAT, THE THING AT THE TOP, UM, THAT SAYS EASILY REMOVABLE AT THE END OF DAILY BUSINESS HOURS, IS THAT JUST SAYING THAT THE, THAT THE, THE FURNITURE, YOU KNOW, FURNITURE UMBRELLAS, STRUCTURES, IT'S NOT ARE EASILY YEAH, I GET THAT.
I GET THAT, THAT IT CAN'T, IT HAS TO BE TEMPORARY.
BUT IS THAT ALSO SAYING THAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE REMOVED AT THE END OF EACH DAILY BUSINESS? YES.
THEY OPERATE DURING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF NORMAL BUSINESS HOURS, WHICH WE DON'T ENFORCE NOW.
YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT I WAS GONNA SAY.
SO TO BE CLEAR, STOREFRONTS ARE BUSINESS FRONTS THAT OWN PART OF THE SIDEWALK WOULD NOT, THIS WOULD NOT BE APPLICABLE TO THEM.
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THIS WOULD STILL BE APPLICABLE.IT'S IN PART, IT'S NOT THEIR BUSINESS, EVEN THOUGH IT'S THEIR LAND, EVEN IT'S THEIR BUSINESS.
LIKE IT'S PART OF THEIR BUSINESS.
SO LIKE ELEMENT FOR EXAMPLE, THEY OWN THAT AREA OUT IN FRONT OF THEIR RESTAURANT WHERE YOU HAVE THE TABLES AND THE CHAIRS.
THERE IS NO MECHANISM TO PERMIT THEM TO HAVE THAT OUTDOOR SEATING RIGHT NOW THAT WAS PERMITTED DURING COVID AND IT JUST STUCK.
UM, SO WE'RE SAYING THAT REGARDLESS WHETHER YOU OWN THE LAND OR NOT, YOU WOULD HAVE TO REMOVE YOUR TEMPORARY SEATING.
UM, THAT AT THE END OF EACH BUSINESS THEN.
AND WHAT'S THE RATIONALE, MAY I ASK? WHAT DROVE THIS? UH, WHEN PEOPLE TRIPPING OVER CHAIRS OR WHAT IS, WHAT'S THE, WE'VE RECEIVED COMPLAINTS ABOUT? UH, WELL, NOT AT, NOT AT ELEMENT.
YOU GOT THE FENCED OFF AREA, BUT WE'VE HAD OTHER BUSINESSES THAT HAVE PUT TABLE AND CHAIRS OUT THERE AND WE'VE HAD COMPLAINTS THAT PEOPLE HAVE HAD TO STEP OUT INTO THE STREET TO GET AROUND.
BUT THAT'S PROBABLY ON THE TOWN, ON THE SIDEWALK.
THE OTHER BUSINESSES YOU MENTIONED ELEMENT, I SUSPECT THEY OWN THE LAND THAT THEIR TABLES AND CHAIRS AND IT REALLY GRIND, I BELIEVE OWNS THE AREA IN FRONT OF THEIRS.
UM, SO THIS WAS JUST TO JUST CREATE SOME GENERAL BLANKET REGULATIONS, I GUESS THE COUCHES TOO, RIGHT? COUCHES AND BENCHES.
'CAUSE ON ONE SIDE OF LIKE, I, I'M JUST THE TOWN MAIN STREET ON ONE SIDE, THERE IS NO ROOM FOR ANYTHING OUT THERE.
LIKE THERE'S NO WAY THERE'D BE ANYTHING ON THAT SIDE, BUT ON THAT SIDE.
UM, AND DAILY GRIND, I WILL SAY THEIRS WAS PRIOR TO COVID BECAUSE IT KIND OF, BUT IT ALSO NOOKS BACK IN THERE AND, AND IT, AND PEOPLE WALKING.
UM, AND THAT'S THEIR PROPERTY.
THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT SHE JUST SAID.
BUT THERE'S OTHER THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN GOING OUT ON MAIN STREET TOO, THAT'S OUTSIDE OF PEOPLE'S PROPERTY.
NOW, SO THE BENCH, THESE BENCHES THAT ARE OUT ON THE, ON THE SOUTH SIDE, ON MAIN STREET, DOWN AROUND THE GAZEBO AREA, I CANNOT TO MENTION BUSINESS NAMES.
THEY'LL, THEY'LL HAVE TO MOVE THE BENCHES AT THE END OF THE DAY.
YEAH, WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO GET A PERMIT.
I THINK THAT WE NEED TO RETHINK.
I THINK THERE'S TWO DIFFERENT DISCUSSIONS HAPPENING.
SO THIS IS FOR LIKE OUTDOOR DINING.
SO THINK LIKE YOU MENTIONED, SOME OF THESE ALREADY EXIST BY BRISA ELEMENT, TRI TIE, THEY HAVE OUTDOOR DINING AREAS THAT WERE PART OF THEIR APPROVAL.
CALL IT NON-CONFORMING, GRANDFATHERED, WHATEVER.
WE HAVE OTHER RESTAURANT, YOU KNOW, NOT JUST DOWNTOWN, BUT IN THE C ONE DISTRICT AND STUFF THAT MAY, ONCE YOU HAVE OUTDOOR DINING AND WE WANNA MAKE SURE THAT'S PERMITTED.
UM, THE DIS AND THE DISCUSSION OF BENCHES OR POS STUFF THAT ARE IN THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY IS A SEPARATE PROCESS.
THOSE ARE GONNA FALL UNDER A DIFFERENT PROCESS OF A DIFFERENT POLICY HOLD HARMLESS RIGHT OF WAY UTILIZATION.
THIS IS REALLY SPECIFIC TO, I WANT TO OPEN A BUSINESS AND I WOULD LIKE TO INCLUDE OUTDOOR SEATING.
RIGHT NOW OUR ZONING DOESN'T REALLY ADDRESS THAT.
IT TALKS ABOUT OUTDOOR DISPLAY OF GOODS AND STORAGE OUTSIDE, BUT DOESN'T REALLY DEFINE HOW TO MAKE AN APPROPRIATE AND ATTRACTIVE BUSINESS FRIENDLY OUTDOOR DINING AREA FOR YOUR PRIVATE BUSINESS, PRIVATE PROPERTY.
SO THE ANYTHING WITHIN THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY.
AND AS YOU MENTIONED, WE'RE WORKING THROUGH THAT TO DEFINE AND ENSURE WHETHER IT'S ENCROACHMENT LICENSE AGREEMENT HOLD HARMLESS, IT'S AN HISTORIC DISTRICT OR NOT, OR RIGHT OF WAY UTILIZATION PERMIT TO UTILIZE PUBLIC PROPERTY.
I THINK THIS IS AND CORRECT WRONG REALLY ABOUT PRIVATE OUTDOOR DINING.
WHAT ABOUT, UH, PRIVATE ALLEYS THAT ARE, ARE OWNED BY PROPERTY OWNERS? I CAN THINK OF ONE RIGHT NOW.
IT'S PRIVATELY OWNED THAT LEADS TO THE HAYTON PARKING LOT IS MAINTAINED BY THE TOWN, BUT IT'S PRIVATELY OWNED.
HOW, HOW DOES IT, DOES THIS APPLY TO THAT AS WELL? IF, IF IT WAS, IF IT'S PRIVATE AND THERE'S NO AGREEMENT FOR RIGHT.
WE'D HAVE TO REVIEW THE SPECIFIC NATURE OF IT.
BUT SIMILAR TO THIS, IT'S GONNA HAVE TO MEET THIS CRITERIA THROUGH ZONING IN ORDER TO UTILIZE IT AS AN OUTDOOR YES MR. IT'S NOT TO BE REDUNDANT, BUT THIS IS A ZONING TEXT AMENDMENT.
ZONING DEALS WITH PRIVATE PROPERTY USES MM-HMM
SO THAT'S ALL WE'RE DEALING WITH HERE.
SO I, I THINK I WOULD FEEL MORE
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COMFORTABLE SAYING US ESTABLISHING A STANDARD FOR HOW MUCH SIDEWALK NEEDED TO BE REMAINING SO THAT IT, IT'S A SEPARATE ISSUE BETWEEN WHETHER YOU, IF YOU OWN IT OR DON'T OWN IT.AS YOU SAY, THAT WOULD BE A MAYBE A DIFFERENT PROCESS FOR WHAT THEY HAD TO ASK FOR PERMISSION FROM US.
BUT IF WE LOOK, IF WE SAID, HEY, YOU NEED, LET'S JUST SAY SIX FEET ON YOU, THAT MIGHT BE TOO MUCH, BUT LET'S JUST SAY YOU NEEDED SIX FEET IN FRONT OF WHATEVER YOU'RE PROPOSING FOR YOUR DINING AREA.
AND BUSINESS OWNERS WOULD THEN HAVE TO ASSESS, WILL I HAVE THAT MUCH BY WHAT I'M PROPOSING? THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS NOT ALL OF 'EM ARE ON THE SIDEWALK TRI BEHIND THE BUILDING.
WELL, AND THAT'S THE OTHER PIECE IS NOT EXACTLY THAT, BUT I WAS QUESTIONING WHAT THE RATIONALE WAS FOR THE 50%.
UM, THAT IT COULDN'T BE MORE THAN 50% OF YOUR, UM, ORIGINAL.
I THOUGHT THAT WAS INTERESTING AS WELL.
'CAUSE I, SOMEBODY COULD OPEN A BUSINESS IN THAT WHERE THERE ONE HERITAGE SOCIETY HAS THAT POCKET SHOP NOW AND HAVE A VERY SUCCESSFUL EATERY.
IF THEY HAD THE SPACE IN THE FRONT, IT WOULD BE MORE THAN 50% OF THAT FOOTPRINT.
THAT THE INTENTION THERE WAS THAT IT WOULD BE, THAT IT WOULDN'T LIKE FEED THE, THE PRIMARY INDOOR KEEPING LIKE THE INDOOR USE.
SO THE PRIMARY USE IS IN THE RESTAURANT ITSELF, WORK KIND.
THIS IS LIKE AN ACCESSORY TO, SO YOUR OUTDOOR SEATING AREA ACCESSORY TO YOU WERE, YOU WERE ALREADY ESTABLISHED.
DOESN'T HAVE, I MEAN IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THAT TO ME IT'S ALL ONE.
IT JUST DOESN'T HAVE TO, IT WAS JUST A STANDARD THAT WE, THAT REPLACED IN THERE.
SO I'M A DOWNTOWN BUSINESS OWNER AND I'M LOOKING AT PUTTING A PATIO OFF THE BACK OF MY BUSINESS SO PATRONS CAN COME AND BRING THEIR ANIMALS AND NOT COME INSIDE THE STORE.
SO I HAVE TO APPLY APPROVAL FOR THIS AND THEN I HAVE TO REMOVE THOSE, THAT FURNITURE EVERY NIGHT.
I'D HAVE TO REMOVE YOU AT LEAST NEED TO STACK IT OR YOU WOULD HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO US LIKE HOW YOU'RE GONNA MANAGE IT.
SO AS PART OF THE APPLICATION, THE FIRST THING THEY'RE GONNA BE SUBMITTING TO US IS THE PLA SHOW US THE PROPERTY LINES.
UM, WHERE, HOW MUCH SEATING YOU'RE PROPOSING, WHAT IS THE RELATIONSHIP TO THAT SEATING, TO THE PROPERTY LINES.
THERE NEEDS TO BE, UM, INGRESS, EGRESS SPACE.
WE'RE GONNA EVALUATE ALL OF THAT WHEN YOU SUBMIT THIS.
AND THEN PART OF THAT TOO WILL BE THE MANAGEMENT OF IT.
ARE YOU STACKING YOUR TABLES AT NIGHT? ARE YOU CLEARING IT OUT OF THE WAY? UM, OUT THE WAY OF WHAT IF THERE'S STORM OR LIKE IF THERE'S YES OR IF IT'S OUT, WELL THINK THEY WANNA PROTECT IT.
BUT YOU TELL A MERCHANT YOU'VE GOTTA BRING YOUR OUTDOOR FURNITURE IN EVERY NIGHT.
I'M NOT SURE THAT'S BEING BUSINESS FROM IT NOT BEING ENFORCED EITHER THOUGH IS WHAT MAYOR COWELL WAS ALLUDING TO.
JUST LIKE WE DON'T ENFORCE THE OPERATION.
IF THEY LEAVE IT OUT, IT'S THEIR RISK.
I READ COUNCIL COULD REMOVE, I READ THE LANGUAGES.
THEY JUST WANT IT TO NOT BE PERMANENT IN CASE IT NEEDED TO BE REMOVED.
THEY'RE NOT SAYING THEY HAVE TO AT END OF EVERY DAY, BUT THAT'S WHY I ASKED IT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SAY IT THAT WAY.
IT SAYS IT DOESN'T READ THE BATHROOM.
IT END, IT DOES SAY AND EASILY REMOVABLE AT THE END OF DAILY BUSINESS HOURS IF TEMPORARY, IF UNATTACHED AND EASILY REMOVED AT THE END OF DAILY BUSINESS HOURS.
I WOULD CONSTRUE THAT YOU GOTTA MOVE IT AT END OF DAILY BUSINESS HOURS, LET'S SAY IF NEEDED OR SECURED.
OR I CAN OR YEAH, I THINK WE CAN PROBABLY TWEAK THAT TO JUST MAKE SURE IT'S NOT, HAS TO BE PICKED UP AND STORED INSIDE, BUT SECURED AND UMBRELLAS, THINGS OF THAT NATURE.
YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T WANT THEM UP BUT, UM, CAN UNDERSTAND THAT.
JUST OUTTA CURIOSITY, I AM GONNA START NAMING SOME BUSINESSES NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.
SO LIKE FOR EXAMPLE, THE MILL, THE MILL HAS OUTSIDE EATING, RIGHT? AND IT'S OBVIOUSLY ON THEIR PROPERTY.
WOULD THEY, WOULD THEY HAVE TO ADHERE TO THIS AS WELL? 'CAUSE I MEAN THE MILL, THE OUTSIDE FURNITURE'S BEEN THERE.
I MEAN I WAS GONNA SAY I'VE BEEN MARRIED THREE YEARS.
LET'S SEE, WE'RE TALKING A LONG TIME THAT FURNITURE'S BEEN OUT THERE.
SO I'M IT'S ON THEIR PROPERTY.
THIS IS FOR ANY OUTDOOR DINING.
THEY CLIENTS BECAUSE WE DON'T CURRENTLY PERMIT THAT THIS IS A VEHICLE FOR THEM TO BE ABLE TO PERMIT LEGALLY WHAT THEY'VE ALREADY BEEN DOING BUT HAS NOT BEEN ENFORCED.
WELL, AND I DON'T KNOW THAT WE ANSWER THEIRS QUESTION, BUT LIKE THE MILL, WOULD THEY BE REQUIRED TO BRING A PURCHASE? YES.
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AND WHY WOULD WE WANT TO DO THAT? THIS IS WHEN WE TALK ABOUT PROPERTY OVER RIGHTS AND I, AND I GET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, I'M JUST, I'M TRYING TO PUT MYSELF, THAT'D BE A CHORE.I DID OVER $2 MILLION A YEAR IN MEALTIME AND WE'RE GONNA ATTACK OUR RESTAURANT INDUSTRY FOR OUTDOOR SEATING, WHICH MOST PEOPLE FIND ENHANCES THE BUSINESS.
IF YOU GO TO WARRENTON, THEY'VE TAKEN SIDEWALKS AND CLOSED OFF MADE IT DOWN HERE.
I THINK THE PURPOSE OF THIS WAS TO ENCOURAGE OUTDOOR DINING BECAUSE IT'S CURRENTLY NOT ALLOWED AT ALL IN THE TOWN OF FRONT ROYAL.
WE WENT THROUGH THIS DURING COVID.
UM, IF YOU PARTICIPATED IN THE BUSINESSES WHO HAVE NOW UNFORTUNATELY SHUT DOWN, THAT WAS WAS HOW THEY THRIVED DURING THAT TIME.
IT IS TRUE WE'LL GO TO A LESS THAN GREAT RESTAURANT IF THEY HAVE OUTDOOR SEATING OR MUSIC.
BUT THAT'S THE JOB OF COUNCIL IS TO TAKE THE DOCUMENT IN FRONT OF US AND REFINE IT TO ALLOW OUTDOOR SEATING.
'CAUSE IT'S CURRENTLY NOT IN THE ZONING.
AND I THINK IT'S INTERPRETATION, COUNCILMAN WOOD, IT SAYS THAT NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO BE UNATTACHED AND EASILY REMOVED AT THE END OF DAILY BUSINESS HOURS.
IT DOESN'T SAY IT MUST OR IT SHALL.
SO THERE'S, THERE'S, THERE'S LOOSE.
WE BEEN TO EN ENFORCE THAT NO, WE ALREADY AREN'T ENFORCING THE OPERATIONS.
AND SHE ANSWERED THAT TO MAYOR RE WE'RE NOT ENFORCING IN ANY OF IT CURRENTLY.
NO, I, AND WE, I DON'T HAVE DRIVING THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY.
BUT I DON'T ME, THIS IS BECOMING UNNECESSARILY RESTRICTIVE FOR THE RESTAURANTS WHO HAVE DINING ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY OR ARE TRY TIE AND BEHIND THEIR BUSINESS BEFORE THE PARKING BRICK HOUSE OR BRICK HOUSE OR, UM, I DON'T, I BET THE PROPERTY OR THE BUR THERE OFF KID LANE, THE INTENTION HERE IS NOT TO BE RESTRICTIVE OR TO HARM THEM.
IT'S JUST KIND OF A PART OF A MULTI-STEP PROCESS TO BRING EVERYBODY INTO COMPLIANCE.
WE HAVE MULTIPLE ISSUES HAPPENING AT ONE TIME DOWN ON MAIN STREET THAT ARE AN ENFORCEMENT PROBLEM.
SO THIS IS THE FIRST PART OF THIS MECHANISM.
SO WE'RE DEALING WITH OUTDOOR SEATING HERE.
I HAVEN'T ASKED, WHAT ABOUT, UM, ROOFTOP DINING? HOW'S THAT GONNA BE HANDLED? NOT, HAS NOT COME BEFORE US YET, SO.
WELL I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT THERE IS A BUSINESS DOWNTOWN LOOKING AT THAT AND TRYING TO MAKE A PLAN TO OFFER ROOFTOP DINING NEXT YEAR.
THE OWNERS TOLD ME THEMSELVES.
SO ARE WE SAYING THEY, AND THEY'RE MORE ALLOWED TO COME IN AND HAVE A DISCUSSION WITH US.
THEY HAVE NOT HAD THAT DISCUSSION WITH STAFF YET.
SO AT THAT POINT WE CAN FIGURE OUT DID THEY FALL UNDER THIS OR WOULD THERE BE SOMETHING DIFFERENT? SO, AND AGAIN, I WANT TO READ THROUGH THIS AGAIN, BUT I NEVER ENVISIONED THAT PEOPLE HAVE LEGAL PROPERTY LIKE THE MILL, LIKE, UM, THE COFFEE SHOP AT THE MIDDLE OF MAINE.
UM, WHEREVER THEY OWN A PORTION OF SIDEWALK, THEY'RE NOT INTRUDING INTO THE PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY.
WHY DO WE WANT TO PUT THAT ON THEM NOW THAT THEY HAVE TO MOVE? IT COULD HAVE TO MOVE THE FURNITURE.
IF YOU JUST, IF YOU SWITCH THE WORD, CHANGE THE WORD COUNSEL, CHANGE STYLING, SEND THE RECOMMENDATIONS BACK TO STAFF, THAT'S WHAT'S IN FRONT OF US DO TO CHANGE IT TO HOW WE SEE IT.
MR. PETTY? UM, I WOULD JUST MAKE ONE.
IT SAYS RIGHT NOW IT SAYS MUST BE TEMPORARY, UNATTACHED AND EASILY REMOVED BY THE END OF BUSINESS HOURS.
IF THAT COULD SAY IT COULD BE REMOVABLE OR SECURED AT THE END.
AND THAT'S, I THINK THAT IS THE GOAL.
IT'S THINGS THAT ARE SECURED IS BASICALLY NOW, I MEAN IT'S, IT'S LOCKED OR THE GATE'S CLOSED AND I SAW MR. SONNET NODDING WHEN I SAID IT DOES NOT SAY MUST OR SHALL.
SO THERE'S SOME AMBI AMBIGUITY.
THERE DOESN'T OR UMBRELLA DOWN.
IF I READ IT, IT DOESN'T SAY I'M MY STORY.
WHEN THEY COME INTO PLANNING AND ZONING AND THEY SUBMIT THE APPLICATION, JOHN AND I WILL SIT DOWN WITH EVERY APPLICANT LIKE WE ALWAYS DO AND TAKE THEM THROUGH THE ORDINANCE AND HERE'S YOUR EXPECTATIONS AND THESE ARE THE RULES YOU'RE GONNA NEED TO FOLLOW IF THIS GETS APPROVED.
I WANT, I THINK WHAT I'M GATHERING FROM SOME MEMBERS OF COUNCIL TOO IS JUST THAT WE JUST, YOU KNOW, THAT WHOLE IDEA OF LIKE, IF THEY AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT.
LIKE, BUT MAYBE IT IS BROKE AND WE JUST HAVEN'T BEEN HEARING THOSE TYPES OF THINGS.
BUT I WOULD AID TO SEE US, YOU KNOW, GOVERNMENT SOMETIMES WE JUST ADD MORE STEPS.
I'M VERY PROUD TO HEAR THIS COUNSELOR SAYING ON THEIR PRIVATE PROPERTY.
THAT'S WHAT I SAY ABOUT THIS, ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT COMES BEFORE IT'S LIKE A MURAL.
SO WHAT ARE SOME, WHAT ARE YES, MR. SIMON.
SO MAYOR, UM, AND MS. KAKI, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, BUT OUR BASELINE HERE IS COMMERCIAL USES ARE REQUIRED TO TAKE PLACE WITHIN THE STRUCTURE.
IS THAT CORRECT? FULLY ENCLOSED WITHIN THE STRUCTURE IS WHAT THE ORDINANCE DOES.
SO THAT'S OUR GENERAL RULE FOR COMMERCIAL USE.
OCCURRING INSIDE THE STRUCTURE.
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OKAY.BUT YEAH, AS THE MAYOR POINTED OUT, THE MILL HAS BEEN THERE OPERATING OUTSIDE, BUT IN THEIR STRUCTURE, I MEAN, I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO THE ZONING ADMINISTRATOR'S TERRITORY, BUT THAT COULD BE A LEGALLY NON-CONFORMING USE.
AND LIKE IN THAT SITUATION, THERE'S A ROOF OVER IT, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? SO CAN PUT, YOU HAVE A PART, YOU HAVE A PART OF THE ROOF OR AWNING OVER ELEMENT TOO.
BUT THEN IF YOU'RE A COMMERCIAL BUSINESS AND YOU DO, LET'S SAY CATERING ON THE SIDE, YOU HAVE IT CONTAINED IT PER SE IN YOUR STRUCTURE.
IF YOU DO ONLINE SALES, YOU HAVEN'T NECESSARILY CONTAINED WITHIN YOUR STRUCTURE.
SO MAYBE THE, YOU KNOW, I DON'T LIKE THE 50% IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
WELL, BUT HE WANTED, HE WAS SAYING THE TEXT JUST NOW THAT ALL YOUR, ALL YOUR BUSINESS IS SUPPOSED TO BE WITHIN A STRUCTURE, NOT NECESSARILY, YOU KNOW, IT COULD BE YOUR BASE.
YEAH, BUT THAT'S AN OUTDOOR DINING.
I JUST THINK WE DON'T WANNA OPEN SIDEWALK SALES.
WELL THINK ABOUT SIDEWALK SALES AND THEY WOULD PUT IT OUT IN THE STREET TOO, BACK IN THE NURSING.
I'M TALKING ABOUT THE GENERAL RULE IS FOR COMMERCIAL USE, IT'S WITHIN THE STRUCTURE.
AND THEY ALREADY HAVE TO HAVE A PERMIT TO COMMENCE THE USE.
SO THE GOVERNMENT IS ALREADY TELLING THEM YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PERMIT TO HAVE YOUR RESTAURANT.
IT IS THEIR PRIVATE PROPERTY, BUT WE ARE STILL TELLING THEM YOU NEED PERMISSION FROM US TO USE IT AS A RESTAURANT.
NOW WE'RE JUST SIMPLY SAYING, OKAY, BECAUSE THE ORDINANCE SAYS WITHIN THE STRUCTURE, THIS, THIS IS A MECHANISM FOR THEM TO HAVE THEIR USE ON THE OUTSIDE OF THEIR STRUCTURE, BUT POTENTIALLY STILL IN THEIR PROGRAM.
SO I GUESS THE BIGGEST QUESTIONS FOR ME IS WHEN SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAS COME BEFORE COUNCIL HAVE BEEN IMPLEMENTED BEFORE, ESSENTIALLY IT'S FOR NEW REQUESTS, NEW BUSINESSES, NEW OUTDOOR DINING, LIKE A A A FOUR DECADE OLD RESTAURANT WOULDN'T HAVE TO COME AND APPLY FOR THIS PERMIT.
SO SINCE THIS GIVES US A MECHANISM FOR ENFORCEMENT, THERE'S NOT GONNA BE ANYBODY GRANDFATHERED IN, IN THIS INSTANCE, WE WOULDN'T BE GRANDFATHERING.
SO OUR EXISTING BUSINESS RETA BILLY BRYAN MYA IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT.
THEY ALREADY HAVE THEIR SITE PLAN.
THEY'VE GOT AN AGREEMENT WITH THE TOWN.
UM, BUT I DON'T THINK MYRE IS INCLUDED, BUT IT'S YEAH, BUT WHAT'S FAIR FOR ONE IS FAIR FOR THE OTHER, THERE THERE ARE OTHER THINGS, RIGHT? SO THE PRIORITIES, YAMA, FUJI, BRICK HOUSE, THERE'S SO MANY MORE.
IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, TO ME THE PRIORITIES ARE NUMBER ONE, SAFETY.
WE WANNA MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE DON'T HAVE TO WALK TO THE STREET.
SO THAT'S AN IMPORTANT REGULATION.
THE OTHER PRIORITY IS NOT APPROACH ON OUR LAND.
HOW IS B AND L CUSTARD GONNA BE CONSIDERED THAT THEIRS IS LESS THAN 50% OF THEIR SEATING AREA.
THEIR FOOTPRINT OF THE BUSINESS IS LESS THAN 50% OF THEIR SEATING AREAS.
I I'M JUST GONNA THROW THIS OUT THERE.
I, I FEEL S BUNKS THERE'S A LOT MORE RESTAURANTS THAN YOU GUYS ARE THINKING ABOUT.
YEAH, I'M THINKING ALL MAIN STREET.
YOU'RE RIGHT, IT'S ALL THE TOWN.
BUT HERE'S WHAT I, I THINK FROM JUST ALL THE CONVERSATIONS AND QUESTIONS.
S BUNKERS, I MEAN NOT STARBUCKS AND, UH, ITALIAN RESTAURANT ENGAGEMENT, SIGLIA, HIBACHI FRESH.
SO MY THOUGHT IS THAT WE, I THINK THAT COUNCIL NEEDS TO, NOW KNOWING THAT MAYBE SOME OF THE LANGUAGE YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT TWEAKED, I THINK COUNCIL OUGHT TO HAVE OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK AT THIS OVER THE NEXT WEEK.
MY OTHER QUESTION IS ON THIS ONE AS WELL, ON THE PLANNING COMMISSION'S AGENDA, IT SAYS THAT NEIL ABSTAIN, UM, AND THE MOTION, BUT UNDER THE VOTES RECORDED, IT SAYS IT WAS UNANIMOUS.
IT'S RIGHT HERE, BUT THEN RIGHT HERE IT'S CORRECT.
I, I THINK THAT THAT'S A MISTAKE BECAUSE HE, HE DID NOT ABSTAIN ON THIS.
HE ABSTAINED ON THE UM, CORRECT, BUT I READ TO MAKE SURE IT'S RIGHT.
I'M NO, I'M SAYING IT'S A MISTAKE ON STAFF THEN.
I'M NOT SAYING IT'S A MISTAKE ON MR. NEILSON.
SO ARE YOU GUYS OKAY OR ARE YOU ALL, DO YOU ALL AGREE WITH ME? I MEAN, THE REASON WHY I'M SAYING IS WE COULD ALL SIT HERE AND TALK AND TALK AND TALK ABOUT LIKE WHAT ABOUT THIS, WHAT ABOUT THIS? AND WE COULD, I PERSONALLY THINK IT'D BE BETTER FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE, THEY'VE GOT THIS IN FRONT OF THEM BEFORE WE MEET.
WE CAN, WE CAN PUT THIS BACK ON NEXT WEEK'S WORK SESSION TO COME BACK AND SEE IF THERE'S ANY PIECES OF THIS THAT
[00:30:01]
YOU WOULD ONE, WANNA TWEAK.TWO, ARE YOU EVEN WILLING TO ENTERTAIN IT? YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY THERE'S ALL KINDS OF QUESTIONS HERE, BUT, UM, IT FEELS LIKE, IT FEELS LIKE EVERYBODY WASN'T COMPLETELY PREPARED FOR TO, TO EVEN KNOW WHAT THIS WAS ABOUT AND WHERE TO TWEAK AND WHAT TO TWEAK.
I'M JUST SAYING RATHER THAN US ALL JUST SIT HERE AND KEEP YELLING THINGS OUT.
YEAH, I SAY WE'LL PREPARE OUR NOTES AND OUR, OUR UPDATES FOR ANOTHER WORK SESSION BETWEEN NOW AND NEXT WEEK.
AND MAYBE SOME OF THE QUESTIONS THAT PEOPLE HAVE, I CAN, YOU CAN ALWAYS ASK STAFF.
BUT I WILL SAY I THINK IT'S ALWAYS BETTER TO ASK IT IN PUBLIC BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE MIGHT BE HAVING THE SAME QUESTIONS TOO.
UM, 'CAUSE AND IT'S SAFE STAFF FROM HAVING TO REPEAT IT AT THE WORK SESSION, RIGHT? RIGHT.
AND THIS WEEK I CAN COME BACK WITH A REVISED VERSION FOR YOU.
I CAN READ ON THIS THING AND REMOVE THE 50% NEED TO CLARIFY THE STORAGE.
AND SO IF WE DON'T DO ANYTHING, WE JUST HAVE LEGALLY NON-CONFORMING USES IN TOWN THAT ALREADY EXIST POTENTIALLY.
BUT I, AGAIN, I DON'T WANT TO OVERSTEP MY BOUNDS.
THAT'S THE ZONING ADMINISTRATOR'S CALL AS TO WHETHER SOMETHING'S LEGALLY NON-CONFORMING.
IF COUNSEL DECIDED TO DO NOTHING WITH THIS, I THINK THAT THERE'S A LARGER ISSUE THAT WE'RE HAVING ON MAIN STREET AND I'M NOT COMFORTABLE SAYING THAT THESE ARE ALL LEGALLY NONCONFORMING AT THIS POINT.
OKAY, WELL THAT'S MORE OF THE RIGHT OF WAY ON MAIN STREET THAT YOU'RE DEALING WITH, WITH AS OPPOSED TO THE MIDDLE.
UM, AND SOME OF THESE OTHERS, I GUESS I'M NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN BEING TOLD ABOUT THE RIGHT OF WAY ISSUES.
'CAUSE I'M IN THE DARK HERE, IT SEEMS. WELL, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY EVERYBODY'S ALLUDING TO IT, BUT YEAH, PER TOWN CODE, YOU CANNOT OBSTRUCT A SIDEWALK.
YEAH, I WALKED UP AND DOWN AT THIS WEEKEND AND ATE AT MULTIPLE BUSINESSES.
IS THERE A SPECIFIC, IS THERE SOMETHING BEFORE THE TOWN THAT I'M UNAWARE OF THAT'S AN ISSUE? YES.
BECAUSE A COUPLE OF YOU HAVE SAID IT'S, WE'RE HAVING RIGHT AWAY ISSUES.
I WALKED UP AND DOWN AT PINE, BUT I, I JUST THINK WE BRING, I I I DON'T, I'M NOT AWARE OF ANYTHING.
I'M JUST WANNA MAKE SURE, SO UNDER COMMERCIAL, ALL THESE THINGS THAT SAY COMMERCIAL, WE ARE ONLY TALKING ABOUT ANYBODY THAT'S GONNA BE SERVING FOOD OUTSIDE.
THIS IS OUTDOOR DINING IN CONJUNCTION WITH RESTAURANT.
BUT IT HAS TO BE WITH RESTAURANTS, RIGHT? YEAH.
I I MEAN YOU DO UNDERSTAND WHAT, LIKE, SOME OF THE QUESTIONS WE'RE ASKING, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE EVEN LIKE WHAT I CALL THE FOOD TRUCK PARKING LOT NOW THAT'S ACROSS FROM FANTASY LAND, I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT IT'S CALLED.
BUT, UM, LIKE PEOPLE ARE EATING OUTSIDE THERE.
IT'S NOT REALLY A RESTAURANT, BUT IT'S A FOOD TRUCK.
I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT WHEN WE DO THIS, WE, WE, WE UNDERSTAND THAT AND MAKE SURE THAT EVERYTHING THAT WE'RE DOING, BECAUSE I'VE ALWAYS, I I CALL IT BABY PROOFING, BUT WE DON'T WANNA COME BACK AND SOMEBODY COMES BACK TO US AND SAYS, WELL I COULDN'T DO THAT BECAUSE OF THAT.
AND WE'RE LIKE, WELL THAT'S NOT REALLY WHAT WE INTENDED IT TO BE UNINTENDED.
LET'S MAKE SURE THAT WE KNOW WHAT THE INTENDED, YOU KNOW, INTENTION IS FOR THIS.
AND IT'S, AND YOU SAY LAWFUL RESTAURANTS, CAFES, OR FOOD ESTABLISHMENT.
SO BASICALLY ANY PLACE THAT'S SERVING FOOD OR DRINKS WOULD BE, THIS WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST IN THE OPTION.
THE SIDEWALK ON THE SOUTH SIDE IS WIDER.
WE HAVE AN EAST AND WEST MAIN SOUTH.
THIS ONE THE NORTH EAST SIDE SOUTH, SOUTH SIDE.
BECAUSE I'M SO FAMILIAR WITH THE NORTH SIDE BECAUSE OF MY FAMILY'S BUSINESS.
NORTH SIDE IT'S MU AS MUCH, MUCH NARROWER.
SO LIKE IF OQ FOR EXAMPLE, IF THEY WANT TO PUT SOMETHING OUT THERE, YEAH, IT WOULD TAKE OFF.
OH NO, THAT WOULDN'T BE A LOT OF THE, THAT'S NOT IMPOSSIBLE.
BUT I THINK THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM PERHAPS IN SOME OF THE SHOPS OCCUPYING THE SIDEWALK.
AND I, I THINK WE, WE HAVE A LITTLE PROBLEM OVER HERE, BUT WE'RE REALLY, IT'S LIKE USING A 45 TO SHOOT A MOSQUITO HERE.
I'M NOT GONNA THINK BUSINESSES, BUT YOU WALK BY THERE, PEOPLE ARE SITTING THERE, THE SIDEWALK GETS DOWN TO THIS.
I'VE SEEN PEOPLE I THINK OF EVEN WALK AROUND 'EM OUT ON THE STREET.
BUT WE HAVE OTHER BUSINESSES WHO HAVE THEIR OWN PROPERTY OUT THERE.
THEY'RE NOT BOTHERING ANYBODY.
THEY DON'T NEED A FLYER POP TO DIVIDE 'EM OFF.
AND WE'RE GONNA MANDATE THEM WITH THINGS I DON'T THINK THAT WE SHOULD BE DOING.
I THINK WE SHOULD FIND A WAY TO MAKE THEIR BUSINESS BETTER AND EASIER, NOT MORE RESTRICTIVE.
[00:35:01]
NEXT.THIS WILL BE ON NEXT WEEK'S AGENDA.
NOW WITH THAT BEING SAID, REGARDLESS OF THE OUTCOME OF NEXT WEEK, WE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO INCLUDE IT UNTIL SEPTEMBER, UH, TO HAVE A PUBLIC HEARING.
BUT IT'LL AT LEAST GIVE US THAT OPPORTUNITY AND PROBABLY THE PRESS WILL REPORT ABOUT IT.
AND SO WE WILL MAYBE EVEN GET SOME FEEDBACK FROM OTHER PEOPLE TO THINK OF THINGS WE HAVEN'T THOUGHT OF.
SO IS THE RIGHT OF WAY ISSUE GONNA COME BEFORE COUNCIL OR IS THAT BEING HELD ADMINISTRATIVELY? NOT YET ADMINISTRATIVE.
WHY THAT'S, IS IT JUST ME? I'VE HEARD STAFF AND COUNCIL MEMBERS ALLUDING TO THIS RIGHT OF WAY ISSUE.
THAT'S THE BIGGER PORTION OF THE ISSUE HERE.
SO I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND IF THAT'S THE BIGGER PORTION.
IS THAT BEING ADDRESSED?
DOES THAT, HAS HONESTLY HAS ALMOST NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS.
THAT IS A SEPARATE THING THAT WE ARE WORKING ON SEASONALLY, WHATEVER IT IS, BUT RIGHT OF WAYS ALL THROUGH TOWN.
WE NEED TO ENSURE THAT WE'RE USING THAT PROCESS PROPERLY.
IT'S REALLY NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS.
IT'S JUST BEEN BROUGHT UP MULTIPLE TIMES.
THE OTHER THING I JUST MENTIONED IS JUST, WE'RE JUST SEE IF MR. INGRAM HAS ANY OH, GOODNESS.
YOU'VE HEARD EVERYTHING EVERYBODY'S BEEN SAYING.
DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING YOU WANNA ADD OR ASK? NO, I MEAN, I, UM, I'VE BEEN LISTENING TO WHAT EVERYBODY SAYS, AND I, AND I AGREE WITH WHAT COUNCIL WOOD SAID, KNOW SPECIFICALLY WITH, UM, WITH THE BILL.
I MEAN, IT, IT'S OUTSIDE EATING HAS BEEN PART OF THEIR BUSINESS, YOU KNOW, FOR, YOU KNOW, FOR GOD HOW LONG AND ALL OF A SUDDEN JUST, YOU KNOW, HAVING TO ASK THEM TO ASK FOR PERMISSION, IT SEEMS KIND OF, YOU KNOW, SEEMS A LITTLE RIDICULOUS TO ME.
BUT ANYWAYS, UM, BUT I READ THROUGH IT.
LIKE I SAID, WE WE'RE GONNA PUT IT ON THE, UM, COURT SESSION FOR NEXT WEEK.
YOU KNOW, I'LL BE ABLE TO HOPEFULLY GET CLARIFIED, YOU KNOW.
WELL, HOPEFULLY WE'LL ALL GET, GET CLARIFIED ON, UH, WHAT WE CAN DO HERE.
SO WE'LL PUT THIS ONE NEXT WEEK'S, UM, AGENDA.
YOU KNOW, GIVE EVERYBODY A CHANCE TO REALLY LOOK AT IT, HAVE QUESTIONS, SUGGESTIONS, THOSE TYPES OF THINGS.
NOW, BEFORE I MOVE FORWARD THOUGH, MS. KAKI MENTIONED SOMETHING ABOUT HER CLA LIKE CHANGING SOME LANGUAGE AND STUFF LIKE THAT.
DO YOU WANT HER TO DO THAT AUTOMATICALLY ALREADY OR DO WE WANT TO JUST WAIT UNTIL NEXT WEEK AND TALK ABOUT ALL THE THINGS? ONLY REASON WHY I SAY THIS SOMETIMES I THINK IT GETS CONFUSING WHEN IT WAS LIKE, THIS WAS THIS VERSION AND THIS WAS THIS VERSION.
THIS, IT MIGHT BE EASIER TO BE LIKE, THIS IS THE ONE WE'RE DEALING WITH.
WE DON'T HAVE TO WAIT FOR THURSDAY.
BRUCE SAID TO LEAVE IT AS THIS UNTIL WE GET FEEDBACK.
SO WE'LL JUST LEAVE IT AND THEN WE'LL, IT CHANGES LATER.
OLD BUSINESS, OUR GOOD OLD FRIEND MR. DATA CENTER STUFF
BUT BASICALLY FROM THE JUNE 22ND PUBLIC HEARING, UM, COUNSEL REQUESTED A POLICY POLICY CHANGE, RIGHT? SO WE WENT FROM SPECIAL USE, UM, PERMIT PROCESS TO REGULATE DATA CENTERS TO THE, UM, ADMINISTRATIVE MORATORIUM AND THEN THE REQUEST THAT TO OUR PLANNING COMMISSION DEFINE AND PROHIBIT DATA CENTERS.
UM, SO THAT'S KIND OF WHAT WE DID.
SO WHAT THIS TEXT AMENDMENT DOES NOW, WE'VE DEFINED THE DATA CENTERS AS AN INDUSTRIAL USE FACILITY.
SO WE HAVE PROHIBITED THEM IN I ONE I TWO IN YOUR MCD DISTRICT.
SO ON THE MAP THAT IS THE DARK BLUE, THE LIGHT BLUE, AND THEN THE MAGENTA AREAS.
UM, NONE OF THIS IS IN OUR PACKET.
SO THE MAGENTA AREAS, YOU'VE GOT THE HOSPITAL, YOU'VE GOT, UM, UH, PART OF THE OLD ABEC SITE, AB TECHS, UH, THE PROGRESS SHOPPING, OR SORRY, PROGRESS TECH PARK AND THEN THIS MOSTLY UNDEVELOPED AREA,
UM, SO THE OTHER PART OF THIS, WHAT WE DID BESIDES THE PROHIBITION IS THAT WE DISTINGUISHED THEM BETWEEN LIKE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DATA CENTER AND THEN A TECHNOLOGY BUSINESS, WHICH IS WHERE, UM, I THINK THERE WAS, THERE WAS A, A DANGER THERE.
SO, UM, THE NEW DEFINITION, BASICALLY IT'S HIGH PERFORMANCE COMPUTING, UM, COMPUTER IMPRINTS OR COMPUTATIONAL IMPRINTS.
SO ALL OF THESE PIECES, THESE AFFILIATED ENTITIES, CRITICAL IT LOAD, ALL OF THIS WAS BUILT INTO THE DEFINITION.
SO WHAT YOU HAVE IS A VERY ROBUST DATA CENTER DEFINITION.
SO IT'S CLEAR WHAT IS THE DATA CENTER AND WHAT IS NOT A DATA CENTER.
[00:40:01]
UM, AND THEN TO MAKE SURE THAT THE TECHNOLOGY BUSINESSES WEREN'T ACCIDENTALLY SWEPT UP INTO DATA CENTER.UM, WE, WE AMENDED THAT DEFINITION AS WELL.
SO THE BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM IS THAT IS THEIR PRIMARY PURPOSE.
SO THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE, UM, DATA CENTER WHOSE PRIMARY PURPOSE IS THE STORAGE OF DATA AND THE COMPUTING END OF IT, WHEREAS THE TECHNOLOGY BUSINESSES THAT MAYBE JUST USE THAT TO FACILITATE THEIR EVERYDAY, UM, BUSINESS.
UM, SO THE WAY WE WENT ABOUT PROHIBITING THIS IS THAT WE, UM, CREATED THIS DELIBERATE, UM, FUNCTION BASED DEFINITION.
SO ANY FACILITY UTILIZED PRIMARILY FOR THE STORAGE MANAGEMENT, PROCESSING, HOSTING TRANSMISSION OF DIGITAL DATA, INCLUDING CLOUD HOSTING, AI TRAINING, INFERENCE ON THE CRYPTO BLOCKCHAIN INFRASTRUCTURE, THOSE THINGS.
SO WE HAVE FOUR MEASURABLE THRESHOLDS THAT MAKE SOMETHING A DATA CENTER.
SO WHEN SOMEBODY COMES IN TO APPLY OR SAY, HEY, WE HAVE A TECHNOLOGY BUSINESS, WE WOULD MAKE SURE THAT THEY MEET THESE CRITERIA WHERE THEIR POWER DEMAND IS OVER 500 KILOWATTS.
THEY HAVE BACKUP STANDBY POWER GREATER THAN 500 KILOWATTS.
THEY HAVE SPECIALIZED LIQUID COOLING OR HEAT REJECTION OR AIR COOLING.
AND IF THEIR FLOOR AREA IS OVER 5,000 SQUARE FEET, WE WOULD EVALUATE THAT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT ISN'T NEED TECHNOLOGY BUSINESS, NOT THE DATA CENTER, WHICH IS WHAT ANYTHING THAT MEETS THESE CRITERIA WOULD BE CONSIDERED BY OUR DEFINITION.
AND THEN IF THEY CALL THEMSELVES A DATA CENTER, OR SORRY, TECHNOLOGY BUSINESS, AGAIN, IF THEY MEET THOSE CRITERIA, THEY'RE NOT, SO IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THEY CALL THEMSELVES.
WE'VE TRIED TO REMOVE THOSE LIKE LOOPHOLES.
UM, AND WHAT WAS IT, SORRY, I LOST MY SPACE.
SO THE DESIGN PERMITTED CAPACITY COUNTS NOT JUST CURRENT USE.
SO THEY WOULD HAVE TO, WHEN THEY SUBMIT, THEY WOULD HAVE TO SHOW WHAT ARE THEY GONNA BE USING UTILITY WISE.
THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PROVIDE ALL THE JUSTIFICATION THAT THEY ARE IN FACT NOT KATIE DATA CENTER.
BUT BASICALLY WHAT THIS DOES IS WE HAVE NOW DEFINED IT, SEPARATED IT FROM TECHNOLOGY, AND THEN WE PROHIBITED THEM IN THE I ONE I TWO AND MCD.
SO IF YOU WANT TO, I CAN SHOW YOU IN THE ORDINANCE IN EACH OF THESE, I'LL SHOW YOU THE MTD FOR EXAMPLE, WE ADDED THIS NEW CATEGORY C WHERE IT SAYS PROHIBITED.
SO THE FOLLOWING USES ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN THE MCD DISTRICT AND WE HAVE DATA CENTERS, BUT IF WE GO UP TO BY RIGHT USES TECHNOLOGY BUSINESSES ARE THERE.
SO IN EACH OF OUR ZONES, THAT'S HOW WE LAID THE ORDINANCE OUT, THAT YOU HAVE YOUR PERMITTED AND THEN YOU HAVE THE PROHIBITED AT THE END OF THE SECTION CI CAN DO THAT QUESTION.
FIRST QUESTION I'M GONNA ASK IS WHEN, WHEN TONIGHT'S OVER WITH, WOULD YOU SEND THIS PRESENTATION TO EACH OF US SO I CAN, UM, AS WE GET QUESTIONS, IT'D BE NICE TO HAVE THIS, YOU KNOW, WHEN PEOPLE, WHEN PEOPLE ASK OR SURMISE THAT SOMETHING IS THERE OR ISN'T THERE, WE'D BE ABLE TO PULL IT RIGHT UP OURSELVES.
COUNSEL, ANY QUESTIONS? I THINK WE MIGHT BE, UH, HAVE DONE A LOT OF WORK FOR A LITTLE REASON.
IT JUST CAME OUT TODAY THAT SENATORS IN VIRGINIA HAVE CALLED ON THE GOVERNOR FOR A MORATORIUM ACROSS THE STATE.
I SAW THAT ANNOUNCED THIS MORNING.
SO WE'RE OUT IN FRONT OF IT, WHICH I DON'T MIND DOING.
BUT, UH, ONE, ONE THING I SAW AND I WONDERED AND, AND IT MAY JUST BE ME BEING UM, DRAMATIC, BUT I SAW THAT THIS DEFINITION SHALL NOT INCLUDE A COMPUTING FACILITY OPERATING ON CREDITED EDUCATIONAL OR RESEARCH INSTITUTION OR BY A HOSPITAL OR HEALTH SERVICE SYSTEM, UM, BLAH BLAH, BLAH.
THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT, AND AND YOU CAN'T MAKE IT AVAILABLE TO A COMMERCIAL THIRD PARTY THAT ALL THAT'S ON.
I'M NOT SURE WHAT PAGE THAT IS.
SO DOES THAT LEAVE A LOOPHOLE OF LET'S SAY A BIG HEALTH SYSTEM TO BE ABLE TO BRING IN SOMETHING THAT COULD, UM, FOR THEIR DATA TO TURN INTO A DATA CENTER BECAUSE THEY'RE EXCLUDED FROM THIS IN THIS LIKE IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE HOSPITAL, THE COMPUTERS SUPPORT THE USE OF THE HOSPITAL STORE, ALL THE PATIENT DATA, BUT THE DATA CENTER,
[00:45:01]
THE, THE DATA IS THE, IS THE ACTUAL USE, LIKE THE COMPUTING IS WHAT WHAT IT DOES.UM, JUST DON'T WANT IT TO TURN INTO AN UMBRELLA POSSIBILITY.
BUT THAT'S WHY WE HAVE THE DATA CENTER
A LOT OF, WELL MATTER OF FACT, THERE ARE SEVERAL DATA CENTERS THAT ARE HEALTHCARE INFORMATION STRICTLY THE MOMENT IT WOULD HIT THOSE CRITERIA, THE ENERGY USAGE AND THINGS LIKE THAT, THEN WE WOULD INTO DATA CENTER.
THAT WAS ALL POINT OF REMOVING THE LOOPHOLES THAT THEY COULDN'T CALL THEMSELVES A TECHNOLOGY VISITS OR SAY THAT THEY'RE NOT, WHEN THEY ARE.
IT DOES SAY ON PAGE 42 OF OUR PACKET, IT SAYS THE DEFINITION EXCLUDES ROUTINE BUSINESS IT OFFICE COMPLETING AN ACCESSORY WEBSITE IS PROCESSING.
I'M IN FAVOR OF INSTEAD OF COUNSEL PICKING THIS APART, SENDING IT TO THE OUTSIDE LEGAL COUNSEL THAT WE GOT ADVISEMENT FROM TO SEE IF THERE'S ANY FEEDBACK.
I WAS JUST GONNA ASK HAVE WE USED ANY INPUT FROM HIM FOR THIS? BECAUSE I REMEMBER HIM SITTING HERE GIVING US CHOICES.
YOU WANT ONE, YOU DON'T WANT ONE, YOU MIGHT WANT ONE, BUT YOU WANT TO MAKE IT STRONG.
NO, THIS WAS, YOU'VE DIRECTED PLANNING COMMISSION AND STAFF THAT THEY'VE PUT UP NOW THAT THEY'VE DONE THAT.
I WOULD BE
IS THAT IS, UM, BEFORE I SAY, IS EVERYBODY OKAY WITH THAT? I WOULD JUST SAY IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE IN HERE THAT YOU SAW IN PREPARING FOR TONIGHT'S MEETING THAT YOU, YOU KNOW, THOUGHT NEEDED TO BE TWEAKED OR WHATEVER BEFORE WE SEND SOMETHING TO SOMEBODY AND THEN WE SAY LATER, OH, WE WERE, YOU KNOW, I THINK, I THINK THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF WORK DONE ON THIS AND I'M PLEASED WITH, UM, ALL THE WORK AND IT SEEMS LIKE AS, AS MS. CAPISH SAID, THAT LOOPHOLE, IT FEELS LIKE SOMEBODY PUT ON LIKE BIG TONGUE GLASSES TO LIKE JUST LOOK ON THERE AND BE LIKE, WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG? THAT'S WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING.
AND, AND BEING ABLE TO, TO DO THAT.
SO ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FROM COUNCIL MEMBERS MR. AT BEFORE? NO, I I WAS JUST GONNA SAY IT'S PROBABLY NOT A THING THAT I DID TO HAVE, UH, A THIRD PARTY JUST OKAY.
COUNCILMAN INGRAM, DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING ELSE OR HAVE ANYTHING YOU WANNA OFFER OR ASK OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT? NO, I, I, THAT WAS ALL I WAS GONNA SAY WAS, YOU KNOW, THE THE HEALTHCARE HOSPITAL PORTION OF IT THAT WAS DISCUSSED.
I MEAN I THINK THIS WAS, UH, THIS DEFINITELY SHOWS, UH, A LOT OF WORK ON IT.
SO, UM, OVERALL I'M PRETTY HAPPY WITH IT.
IF NO ONE ELSE HAS ANY OTHER QUESTIONS, NOW I'M GONNA ASK COUNSEL, ARE YOU GUYS IN AGREEMENT THAT WE SHOULD HAVE OUTSIDE LEGAL LOOK OVER THIS JUST TO SEE IF THERE'S ANYTHING GLARING THAT WE'RE THAT THAT ANY OF US AMONGST THIS, ANY LANGUAGE SHOULD BE ADDED? YEAH.
THAT I WAS SAYING, ANYTHING MISSING OR ANYTHING TWEAKED WAS CLEAR SET OF EYES.
IT WAS CLEARLY LAID OUT THAT WE HAD THEY DONE GOOD JOB.
YEAH, THEY GOT MULTIPLE EYES OVER THERE AND WE HAD THE AUTHORITY LEGALLY TO DO ONE OF THREE OPTIONS.
ANY OF THOSE THREE OPTIONS WE HAD THE LEGAL AUTHORITY TO DO.
UM, JUST THAT NIGHT WE HAD THAT MEETING.
WE DID NOT HAVE THE SAME DIRECTION THAT WE HAVE NOW ON COUNCIL WHERE WE JUST CAME OUT OF A UNANIMOUS VOTE THAT WAS NOT THE SAME THE NIGHT WE HAD THAT MEETING.
SO I THINK NOW THAT WE KNOW THE DIRECTION WE WANT TO GO, HIS ADVISEMENT COULD BE MUCH MORE CLEAR.
AND THE ONLY THING I WOULD SAY IS, YOU KNOW, JUST WANNA THROW THIS OUT THERE AS SOONEST THAT THIS WOULD BE ABLE TO BE ON A ME IF WE WAIT, WHICH I'M NOT SAYING WE SHOULDN'T.
I'M JUST MAKING SURE EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS.
IF WE WAIT TO GET A LE AN EXTRA LEGAL OPINION FOR ONE, WE PROBABLY MORE THAN LIKELY AREN'T GOING TO HEAR UNTIL THE FIRST WEEK OF SEPTEMBER BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GONNA HAVE IT DONE BY NEXT MONDAY, I WOULDN'T THINK.
AND SO, BUT IF WE HAD IT AT THE BEGINNING OF SEPTEMBER, THEN THE SEPTEMBER, UH, REGULAR COUNCIL MEETING WOULD BE THE SOONEST THAT WE COULD TAKE ACTION ON THIS.
'CAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE REALLY NERVOUS ABOUT WE NEED TO GET THIS, GET THIS IN PLACE, PLACE.
WE HAVE THE MORATORIUM IN PLACE.
THAT WOULD STILL BE WITHIN THE MORATORIUM, THE 90 DAYS.
MR. SONNER, DO YOU, YOU HAVE THE, YOU UM, WE'LL BE ABLE TO AT LEAST REACH OUT TO THE OUTSIDE LEGALS YOU, MR. PETTY, WHOEVER,
[00:50:01]
WHOEVER WAS THE ORIGINAL CONTACTOR IN THE FIRST PLACE.AND, AND OBVIOUSLY IF THERE'S ANYTHING YOU HAVE BETWEEN NOW, YOU KNOW, THE NEXT FEW DAYS, IF THERE'S SOMETHING THAT JUMPS OUT AT YOU, LET, UM, THAT PLANNING AND ZONING KNOW AND, AND MR. PETTY SO THAT THEY CAN ASK ALL THE QUESTIONS WE NEED TO ASK.
EVERYBODY GOOD? THANK YOU AGAIN FOR ALL THAT.
'CAUSE I KNOW THAT WAS A LOT AND, AND PLANNING AND ZONING, THAT WAS A LOT FOR THEM TOO, BUT I JUST THOUGHT ABOUT SOMETHING.
NO, WE ARE GONNA HAVE TO ANYWAY.
WE, WE, WE WERE, UM, WE HAD MADE ARRANGEMENTS TO HAVE OUR, WE WERE GONNA HAVE OUR AUGUST MEETING IN A HIGH SCHOOL GYM BECAUSE WE CAN'T HAVE IT AT THE GOVERNMENT CENTER 'CAUSE THEY'RE DOING RENOVATIONS.
AND WE WERE AFRAID THIS ROOM WASN'T BIG ENOUGH IN AUGUST IF THIS ISSUE WAS GONNA BE ON THERE.
BUT NOW WITHOUT THIS, WE ALSO HAD, UM, WITHOUT THE DINING YEAH, PUBLIC HEARING, THERE'S MULTIPLE PUBLIC, WE JUST HAD MULTIPLE PUBLIC HEARINGS.
IT WASN'T FOR ONE SPECIFIC TOPIC OR ANOTHER.
BUT BETWEEN ALSO SOME OTHER CARRYOVER ITEMS. WE WERE CONCERNED.
BUT NOW I THINK WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO UTILIZE THIS SPACE.
UH, COUNSEL, WE ARE NOW AT AN, UM, UM, CLOSED MEETING PART.
MADAM MAYOR, I MOVE THAT TOWN COUNCIL CONVENE CLOSED MEETING SINCE SUBSTANCE 2.2, JUDGE 37 11 AND 2.27 12, THE CODE OF VIRGINIA FOR THE FOLLOWING PURPOSES, ONE, PURSUANT TO SECTION 2.2 DASH 37 11 81, THE CODE OF VIRGINIA FOR THE DISCUSSION, CONSIDERATION OR INTERVIEWS FOR DETECTIVE CANDIDATES FOR EMPLOYMENT, ASSIGNMENT, APPOINTMENT, PROMOTION, PERFORMANCE, DEMOTION, SALARIES, DISCIPLINING OR RESIGNATION OF SPECIFIC PUBLIC OFFICERS, APPOINTEES OR EMPLOYEES OF ANY PUBLIC BODY.
MORE SPECIFICALLY TO DISCUSSION OR CONSIDERATION OF THE ACQUISITION OF REAL PROPERTY FOR PUBLIC PURPOSE OR OF THE DISPOSITION OF PUBLIC HELD REAL PROPERTY WHERE DISCUSSION AND AN OPEN MEETING WOULD ADVERSELY AFFECT THE BARGAINING POSITION OR NEGOTIATING STRATEGY OF THE PUBLIC BODY.
MORE SPECIFICALLY, ACQUISITION PURSUANT TO THE TOWN CHARTER CHAPTER 18 AND VIRGINIA CODE 15.2 DASH 21 9 SECOND.
AND THERE'S ADMISSION, A SECOND.