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UM, SO THIS IS THE BOARD OF OFFICIAL
[Board of Architectural Review on January 13, 2026.]
REVIEW FOR TUESDAY, JANUARY 13TH, 23, 6 YEAR.ALRIGHT, SO WE'VE STILL GOT TO DO THE OCTOBER 14TH MINUTES.
WE'VE GOT SOME BAR MEMBERS HERE THAT, UH, WE'RE NOT PRESENT FOR THAT MEETING, BUT ON I WORK.
SO WE'RE JUST GONNA, SO JUST DO A MOTION IN A SECOND AND THEN I'LL DO A ROLL CALL.
I'LL MAKE A MOTION THAT WE APPROVE THOSE MINUTES.
WE'RE BOTH IN FAVOR OF THAT, SO, AYE.
MS. HENRY, YOU JUST ABSTAIN? I, IAIN CHAIRMAN WATERS? UH, YES.
MS. NASH? I WAS ABSENT DURING THAT.
SO NOW WE'VE GOT THE DECEMBER 9TH MINUTES FROM OUR MEETING THAT YOU GUYS BOTH ATTENDED.
UM, EVERYBODY HAD A LITTLE CHANCE TO LOOK AT THOSE.
THE ONLY THING I NOTICED THAT WASN'T REALLY ON THERE, IT DIDN'T TALK ABOUT, IT DIDN'T MENTION THE FACT THE, THE SECTIONS THAT WE REVIEWED IN THE GUIDELINES.
IT DIDN'T ACTUALLY SAY THAT, BUT, UM, THE NOTES ARE ATTACHED FROM WHAT WE LOOKED AT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S BECAUSE THAT WAS PART OF THE WORK SESSION.
YEAH, I HADN'T DONE THE MINUTES OF THE WORK SESSION.
SO A WORK SESSION ACTUALLY GETS MINUTES AS WELL.
I DO 'EM IF THEY'RE ASKED FOR, BUT BECAUSE WE HAVE 'EM ON RECORDING AND EVERYTHING THAT WHAT Y GUYS TALKED ABOUT WAS ACTUALLY IN THE NOTES.
IN THE NOTES OF THE DRAFT DOCUMENT.
I DIDN'T REALIZE IT WAS TWO SEPARATE THINGS, SO NEVERMIND.
SO THOSE, BUT IF YOU WANT 'EM, I'M HAPPY TO DO 'EM.
SO THE RED LINE ON HERE THAT CAME ARE RESULT OF WHAT WE DISCUSSED? YES.
AND THEN THE NOTES ALSO THE MINUTES WOULD SAY DISCUSSION FOLLOWED
AND THEN IF YOU GUYS, YOU KNOW, ARE HAPPY WITH, YOU CAN WAIT UNTIL THE END, WE DO THE WHOLE THING.
OR WE CAN DO IT AS YOU GO ALONG AND SAY, YEAH, WE WANNA ACCEPT THAT AND, YOU KNOW, THEN WE CAN DO THAT.
OR HOWEVER YOU GUYS WANNA DO THAT.
YEAH, I THINK SECTION BY SECTION GET LOST ALONG THE WAY.
UM, SO EVERYBODY GOOD WITH THE MINUTES AS THEY ARE FOR THE REGULAR MEETING PORTION OF LAST TIME WE GOT, I'LL MAKE A MOTION.
I'LL MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE NOW.
NEXT THING ON THE AGENDA TONIGHT IS, UH, DR.
HI MY, SO WE'VE GOT, UH, A RECOGNITION OF THE SERVICE OF, UH, DWAYNE VAUGHT.
SO YOU WERE HERE FOR 47 YEARS ON THE BARN.
I'M LIKE, HOW LONG HAS THIS COMMITTEE BEEN IN EXISTENCE? BUT NO, DEWEY'S BEEN HERE SINCE THE BEGINNING.
SO, AND THAT'S INCREDIBLE THAT NOBODY MADE HIM LEAVE.
WELL HE TOLD ME HIS SERVICES WOULD STILL BE AVAILABLE FOR A FEE.
I SAID A NOMINAL FEE, THE FREELANCE CONSULTANT, WHICH WE MAY NEED AT SOME POINT BECAUSE THAT'S, YOU KNOW, HAVING NOT HAVING YOU HERE ANYMORE IS, IT'S A LOSS BECAUSE QUESTIONS THE TIME THAT ONLY YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO ANSWER LIKE NO DETAILS THAT AREN'T IN THE INFORMATION THAT'S WRITTEN DOWN.
IT'S JUST A LIFETIME OF KNOWLEDGE THAT WE ACQUIRED AND IT'S, IT'S HANDY ACTUALLY IN THIS CAPACITY.
SO WHAT WAS THE TOTAL OF YEARS? 16.
SO IT STARTED, YOU STARTED DECEMBER OF 2009, RIGHT? AND THEN YEAH.
SO COUNSEL RECOGNIZED DEWEY, UH, BACK IN NOVEMBER, BUT WE, HE COULDN'T MAKE IT.
WE COULD SO GIVE YOU THIS PIECE OF THE MURPHY THEATER BUILDING.
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FROM THE CURTAIN.AND COLIN WAS GRACIOUS ENOUGH TO MELT IT.
NOW YOU HAVE TWO THINGS TO HANG ON THE WALL.
I NEED TO GET YOUR CERTIFICATE.
I GET THAT SO YOU CAN GET A BETTER
I WANNA TURN IT, HOLD IT UP NOW.
YOU GOTTA GET GOOD PICTURE FOR THE PRESS.
YOU SEE WHY I WAS ASKING YOU THOSE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE MURPHY OPERA HOUSE THE OTHER DAY? YES.
I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT YOU WELL, I REALLY FACT CHECKING THE INTERNET, BUT THAT'S WHAT I NEEDED IT FOR.
AND YOU JUST ANSWERED THE QUESTIONS WITHOUT ASKING.
I THINK DANIEL SAID THAT THEY THANKS FOR COMING.
OF THE PROGRESS THAT THEY'RE MAKING IN THERE.
I THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE KIND OF COOL IF WE TIE YOU INTO THAT AS WELL.
I DON'T KNOW WHEN WE CAN SET THAT UP TO GET OVER THERE.
I CAN CALL ROB AND SET UP A TIME MAYBE, UM, I'LL GET A COUPLE TIMES FROM ROB AND THEN I'LL HAVE DANIEL, ONE OF US WILL CONTACT YOU GUYS.
YEAH, I THINK THEY'RE TRYING TO PUT THE ROOF TRUSSES ON NEXT WEEK.
TUESDAY, WEDNESDAY, I BELIEVE.
IT'S PROBABLY WON'T BE A GOOD TIME TO GO THERE, BUT IT WOULD BE COOL IF SOMEBODY COULD GET PICTURES OF LIKE THE, THE CRANE.
PUTTING JOIST IN, BUT YOU KNOW, HAS A DRONE.
YOU BETTER TRY IT OUT NEXT TUESDAY.
THAT WOULD BE COOL IF I'M HERE, I'M, I HAVE TO GO TO NORTH CAROLINA NEXT YEAR, SO, OH, IF I'M AROUND, I'LL BE, DO YOU WANNA STAY DO OR YOU WANT ME TO TAKE YOU HOME OR ARE YOU HOPING AROUND LISTENING.
ALRIGHT, SO NEXT UP, WELL WE'VE GOTTA CLOSE OUT THIS ONE.
SO, UH, I'LL MAKE A MOTION TO ADJOURN THE REGULAR MEETING AT THE BOARD OF ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW FOR JUST JANUARY 13TH, 2026.
ALRIGHT, NOW WE CALLED THE QUARTER WORK SESSION.
ALRIGHT, WE HAVE FORUM FOR THE WORK SESSION.
SO WE'VE GOT THE DEADLINES FROM CONNIE, FROM WHAT WE MANAGED TO GET DOWN ON PAPER LAST TIME IS VERY HELPFUL.
DO WE HAVE A FUNCTIONING DOCUMENT THAT WE CAN ALL WORK ON YET? I'LL LET HIM KNOW.
SO YEAH, CHARLES IS WORKING ON THAT AND CAN HAVE IT AVAILABLE RATHER QUICKLY.
THE ONLY THING IS, IS IN A GOOGLE DOC, YOU WILL ALL HAVE TO USE YOUR TOWN EMAILS.
UM, SO A WORKING TOWN DOCUMENT LIKE THAT.
UM, SO IF THAT WORKS FOR YOU ALL BEFORE WE LEAVE, WE WILL GET DOWN YOUR EMAILS.
I I ALREADY HAVE THEIR PERSONAL AND I'VE ALREADY SENT IT.
WELL THE TOWN, THEY'LL NEED THEIR TOWN.
SO WE NEED TO GIVE, MAKE SURE THEY KNOW WHAT THEIR CORRECT TOWN EMAIL IS.
WELL, CHARLES NEVER PROVIDED THAT TO ME.
YOU GUYS, IF HE, BECAUSE I HAD REQUESTED HE DO THEM.
OH, SO HE, HE WOULD'VE SENT THAT TO YOUR PERSONAL EMAIL WITH INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO ACTIVATE.
CAN WE JUST DO THIS? WOULD, WHEN HE SETS UP THE DOCUMENT, CAN HE JUST SEND THE EMAIL WITH OUR TOWN EMAILS? YEAH.
CAN WE GET IT ALL AT ONCE? HERE'S THE LINK TO THE DOCUMENT.
SO WHETHER IF HE SENDS IT, 'CAUSE I DON'T, I CAN'T FIND THAT EMAIL THAT HE SENT ME WITH MY TOWN EMAIL.
I ASSUME IT'S JUST MY NAME AT FRONT ROYAL.
IT'S YOUR FIRST INITIAL AND YOUR LAST NAME.
IT'S CWATERS@FRONTROYALVA.COM.
SO I'VE GOTTA MAKE A GOOGLE ACCOUNT WITH THAT EMAIL ADDRESS.
NO, NO, FAR WILL LET, HE'S ALREADY MADE EACH OF YOU AN EMAIL ACCOUNT.
AND THEN WHEN HE SENDS THAT TO YOU AND SOMETIMES IT GOES TO JUNK, YOU NEED TO THEN ACTIVATE, HE GIVES YOU A PASSWORD, A TEMPORARY PASSWORD.
SO YOU CAN LOG IN, DO YOUR PASSWORD, THEN YOU CAN CHANGE IT.
BUT THAT IS WHEN HE SETS UP BOX OR IS HE USING BOX? I, I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE'S USING.
UH, I DON'T KNOW WHAT OR NO, IT'S SERVER.
UM, SO IT'S HE'LL PROVIDE YOU ACCESS
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SHAREPOINT.SO HE'LL PROVIDE YOU ACCESS VIA LINK.
AND THEN WHEN EACH OF YOU MAKE EDITS, IT'S IN ONE SECURE PLACE.
WE'LL LOG ONTO IT WITH OUR, YOU'LL LOG IN WITH YOUR TOWN.
CHECK YOUR, UM, SPAM OR JUNK AND SEE IF IT'S THERE.
BUT HOW LONG AGO WOULD YOU HAVE GOTTEN IT? YEARS AGO.
NO, I ASKED HIM TO RESEND THAT TO YOU.
SO I GOT ONE FROM HIM ON DECEMBER 29TH.
SO DID YOU SET IT UP? ARE YOU GOOD TO GO? WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY SET IT UP? WELL, YOUR TOWN EMAIL.
GOT YOUR LOGIN, GAVE YOU A PASS LOGIN PASSWORD.
DID YOU LOG INTO IT AND EVERYTHING? UH, NO.
THERE WAS INSTRUCTIONS IN EMAILS.
IT SAYS SIGN IN, BUT I SIGN INTO WHAT? SIGN INTO YOUR EMAIL ACCOUNT.
YOU GO TO OUTLOOK, YOU NEED OUTLOOK DRIVE.
YOU DO, IT WOULD BE AN OUTLOOK ACCOUNT FOR YOUR EMAIL.
IF YOU'RE TRYING TO GET INTO YOUR EMAIL, YOU WOULD GO TO LIKE MICROSOFT OUTLOOK.
YOU DON'T HAVE HAVE TO DO THAT.
HE WOULD'VE GIVEN HER A LOGIN.
AND THAT'S WHAT YOU DO USE TO LOG IN? JUST JUST TAP THE EMAIL.
SO UP COMES SHOULD BE YOUR LOGIN AND PASSWORD.
SO, SO I HAVE THAT, BUT I HAVE THAT FROM HIM.
SO LOG IN WITH YOUR USERNAME AND THE PASSWORD COMING.
IT DOESN'T SAY LOGIN, IT JUST SAYS LOGIN IN.
IT DOESN'T HAVE A PORTAL OR ANYTHING THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A PORTAL HERE.
SO THAT'S WHY I SAID THEY NEED TO GO TO OUTLOOK.
AND THEN YOU WOULD TYPE YOUR, PUT YOUR PASSWORD IN BOTH CHARLES CLAIMS HUTCHINGS.
SO I, I DON'T KNOW IF HE FORGOT THE LINK.
DO YOU HAVE A LINK, HENRY? I JUST WENT INTO MY OUTLOOK AND HAD A NEW ACCOUNT AND PUT MY PASSWORD IN HERE.
ALRIGHT, WELL I'LL REACH OUT TO CHARLES TOMORROW AND OKAY.
IF NOT, I CAN TYPE UP DIRECTION, HOW TO DO IN GRANDMOTHER LANGUAGE.
YOU CAN ALWAYS OFFICE COM YOU GOT TIME.
YOU CAN, YOU CAN CALL, I KNOW YOU CAN SET UP MM-HMM
ALL RIGHT, THEN I CAN DO THAT BY JUST RESPONDING TO THIS EMAIL.
I DON'T HAVE AN EMAIL FROM HIM.
SO WE'LL HOPEFULLY WE'LL HAVE THE DOCUMENT HERE SOON.
IN THE MEANTIME WE'LL WORK OFF OF, DEPENDING ON CONNIE, DO THE HEAVY LIFTING GEAR WITH NOTE TAKING AND WE GOT A RECORDED VOICE AND VIDEO.
SO LAST TIME WE STOPPED RIGHT BEFORE TABLE OF CONTENT.
UM, THE OTHER THING TO DISCUSS IS DEFINITION.
SO WE'VE GOT AN ONGOING LIST OF DEFINITIONS.
UM, SO WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO FINISH THE DOCUMENT AND THEN DETERMINE WHAT THE FINAL LIST OF DEFINITIONS ARE.
SO THE DEFINITION, BECAUSE THERE ARE NO DEFINITIONS IN THE GUIDELINES MM-HMM
THE DEFINITIONS FOR THE HISTORIC DISTRICT OR LI OR, OR IN THE TOWN CODE UNDER THE HISTORIC OVERLAY DISTRICT.
SO THE CHANGE, ADD, REMOVE DEFINITIONS FROM THAT IS THE TOWN CODE CHANGE.
SO WE'RE GONNA JUST HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL THE DOCUMENT IS A HUNDRED PERCENT AT YOUR READY MM-HMM
AND WE HAVE A FINAL LIST OF DEFINITIONS TO THEN TAKE THE COUNCIL TO UPDATE THAT TO CODE UPDATED.
FOR THE NEW DEFINITIONS, IT'S NOT A MATTER OF JUST UPDATE THE LIST OF DEFINITIONS IN THE GUIDELINES 'CAUSE THERE ISN'T ANYMORE.
SO THE, YEAH, THE DEFINITIONS I WAS THINKING WOULD BE INCLUDED IN THAT EITHER AT THE, INTO THIS, IN SOME SORT OF INDEX OR IN THIS THE SUPPLEMENTAL DOCUMENT THAT WOULD BE MORE FLUSHED OUT WITH DETAILS.
BUT AT SOME POINT THERE WOULD'VE THEN BE A TOWN CODE CHANGE BECAUSE THERE IS A LIST OF HISTORIC OVERLAY DEFINITIONS ALREADY IN OUR,
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IN THE ORDINANCE.IN, IN THE, IN THE ORDINANCE UNDER THE HISTORIC OVERLAY DISTRICT DEFINITIONS ARE ITS OWN.
IT'S NOT IN, IT'S NOT IN THE GUIDELINES.
SO WE'D STILL HAVE TO ADDRESS THAT.
I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT WE HADN'T TIE IT ALL THE WAY BACK TO THAT, BUT IF THAT MAKES SENSE.
SO TABLE OF CONTENTS, WE'LL JUST MOVE ALONE FOR RIGHT NOW.
CAN YOU PUT IN VERY QUICKLY PLEASE? WE HAVE TO HOLD AT 7:00 PM IS THAT GONNA BE A BIG PROBLEM? YEP.
MR. CUTBACKS ABSENT, BUT HE PUT HIS NOTES IN AN EMAIL THAT WE PRINTED OUT FOR YOU ALL.
HE REFERENCED, UM, SOME ROOF PAINTING STUFF AND SOME AWNINGS.
UM, THIS IS A GREAT START ON THE AWNINGS SECTION SO WE'RE NOT QUITE THERE YET.
YES, IT'S UM, ALRIGHT, SO WE START WITH LINE 1 42.
GENERAL PLACEMENT SIGNS ARE AN IMPORTANT PART OF COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS IN HISTORIC DISTRICT TO PROVIDE IDENTIFICATION THE CHARACTER OF STREET SCAPE AND ENHANCE PEDESTRIAN EXPERIENCE.
SIGNS SHOULD RELATE TO THE ARCHITECTURE OF THE BUILDING, FIT WITHIN EXISTING ARCHITECTURAL FEATURES AND AVOID OBSCURING DETAILS SUCH AS WINDOWS, CORNES AND TRIM ON NARROW STREETS.
LIKE MAIN STREET OBJECTED IN BLADE SIGNS AT THE FIRST FLOOR LEVEL FOR PEDESTRIAN VISIBILITY.
PERHAPS A PHOTOGRAPH SHOULD GO THERE, RIGHT? YEAH.
THAT'S MY JOB AT THE GENERAL PLACEMENT IS THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT UHHUH
CAN YOU THINK OF ONE NOW? UM, NOT OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD.
REALLY STOP MY OFF THE TOP OF HEAD.
THE ONES THAT WE SEE EVERY DAY THAT YOU CAN'T THINK OF.
IS THAT WHAT THAT IS? A PROJECTING BLADE ON COMES OUT OFF THE BUILDING? I THINK SO.
DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANYTHING TO ADD OR SUBTRACT THAT PARAGRAPH? NO.
SO STANDARDS, SIGNS SHALL BE COMPATIBLE WITH THE BUILDING ARCHITECTURE AND DISCRE SCALE AND ISSUE WITH THE WORD COMPATIBLE.
JUST TO DO THAT'S THAT'S ENTIRELY TOO BROAD OF A STATEMENT.
THERE'S TOO MUCH TOO ROOM FOR OPINION.
WHAT DO WE DO WITH IT? RIGHT? RIGHT.
SO IS IT A, IS IT SHALL BE COMPATIBLE? SO DOES, I GUESS WE HAVE TO DECIDE WHAT COMPATIBLE MEANS.
IS IT IT, IS IT A RIGHT A PERIOD PIECE? I MEAN, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PUTTING ME ON, ON A VICTORIAN HOUSE OR, YOU KNOW, IT'S THAT KIND OF COMPATIBILITY, BUT HOW DO YOU IT'S ALL SUBJECTIVE.
SO COMPATIBLE THE GIST OF WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO SAY IS THE SIGN SHOULDN'T NECESSARILY STICK OUT ON ITS OWN.
SHOULDN'T, YOU KNOW, LIKE A VAPE SHOP SIGN, IT SHOULD FLASHING LIGHTS.
SO THE COMPATIBILITY WOULD BE, UH, UH, BUILDING MATCHING THE BUILDINGS IN CHARACTER WITH THE BUILDING SHOULD MATCH THE OVERALL AESTHETIC OF THE BUILDING.
BUT THEY DON'T, YEAH, IT JUST HAS TO BE MORE SPECIFIC.
IF SOMEONE SAYS IT IS COMPATIBLE, HOW DO YOU, HOW ARE YOU COHESIVE? THAT'S A GOOD WORD.
COHESIVE I THINK IS A BETTER WORD.
COMPATIBLE WITH THE, THE TIME PERIOD.
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HAS TO BE BRAINSTORM WITH THE ARCHITECTURE OF THE STRUCTURE.I MEAN, ARE YOU LOOKING AT LIKE, IF IT'S AN ITALIANATE STRUCTURE YOU WANT OR A CONCRETE MASONRY BUILDING, IT'S, YOU KNOW IT, BUT AGAIN, IF YOU HAVE, FOR INSTANCE, AND I DON'T KNOW IF THIS EVEN EXISTS, IF YOU HAVE A CONCRETE BLOCK BUILDING ON MAIN STREET, BUT IT'S SURROUNDED BY VICTORIAN STRUCTURES, DOES THAT MEAN THAT THE SIGN HAS TO MATCH THE BUILDING OR THE STREET SCAPE? WELL, WE'RE SAYING BOTH IN THE SAME SENTENCE.
SO IT'LL BE AND THE STREETSCAPE.
COMPATIBLE WITH THE DESIGN OF THE BUILDING.
BUILDING OR COMPATIBLE WITH THE BUILDING ARCHITECTURE.
BUT IT'S ALSO UP TO THIS BOARD TO DETERMINE IF IT'S COMPATIBLE.
THAT'S WHAT I WAS JUST THINKING, LIKE IT'S YOUR JOB THAT SEE IT.
NO, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING IS THAT'S OUR JOB.
BUT IF SOMEONE'S COMING IN HERE AND READING THAT, THE PURPOSE OF THIS DOCUMENT IS TO INFORM PEOPLE SO LESS CONFUSED.
SO SO NOT NECESSARILY LEAVE IT UP TO TRUE TO US.
WE SHOULD EMPOWER PEOPLE TO MAKE, WE DON'T WANT IT TO BE SUBJECTIVE.
YOU WANT IT TO BETTER DECISION AS MUCH AS WE CAN GIVE THEM AS MUCH DIRECTION AS POSSIBLE.
I MEAN, I WAS ALMOST GONNA SUGGEST WE JUST OMIT THAT SENTENCE ALTOGETHER SINCE IT IS OUR DECISION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT IT'S COMPATIBLE.
BUT, AND, AND BECAUSE DOESN'T IT KIND OF
SO MAYBE, MAYBE THAT'S A GOOD POINT.
MAYBE WE DON'T NEED THAT FIT THE EXISTING ARCHITECTURAL FEATURES.
THIS MAYBE WE CAN, MAYBE WE CAN ADD STREETSCAPE TO THE PARAGRAPH ABOVE.
BUT THE, SO THE STANDARDS, EACH SECTION I KIND OF LAID OUT THE SAME WAY.
SO WE'VE GOT THE BLURB AT THE TOP.
OVERVIEWS WHAT THE SECTION IS ABOUT.
AND THEN THE STANDARDS REINFORCE THAT.
SO THIS IS THE OPPORTUNITY TO FLUSH OUT THOSE GOT IT.
SO THE MAIN POINT WE WANT TO GET ACROSS IS MAKE THE SIGN MATCH THE FRICKING BUILDING.
YOU KNOW, LET'S JUST SAY IT LIKE THAT.
HOW ABOUT COMPATIBLE WITH THE TIME FRAME OF THE BUILDING ARCHITECTURE OR THE BUILDING? OH, TIME PERIOD.
IT'S ALMOST LIKE WE'RE JUST REPEATING WHAT'S ALREADY BEEN SAID.
SO THE POINT IS TO IS TO GO INTO MORE DETAIL, RIGHT.
THE, THE STANDARD SECTION IS DO THIS, NOT THIS.
YOU KNOW, BUT THEY, BUT THE BLURB IS GEN IS GENERAL.
THE STANDARDS, THE BULLETS POINTS SHOULD BE AS SPECIFIC AS POSSIBLE.
IS THAT WHAT THEY'RE I THINK MAYBE WE'LL JUST SAY THE SIGNS SHALL MATCH THE BUILDING ARCHITECTURE AND STREETSCAPE MATCH.
I MEAN THAT, THAT'S PRETTY UNAMBIGUOUS.
I DIDN'T NOTICE OUR LIGHTED SIGNS.
MAYBE MATCH IS BEEN COMPATIBLE.
I THINK FOR NOW, JUST CROSS OUT BE COMPATIBLE.
INSERT MATCH, MOVE ON TO THE NEXT LINE.
SIGNS SHALL NOT OBSCURE WINDOWS, COURTS OR OTHER ARCHITECTURAL FEATURES.
SO SHALL BE PLACED FOR PEDESTRIAN VISIBILITY AND SHALL NOT EXCEED 15 FEET ABOVE SIDEWALK GRADE OR THE BOTTOM OF SECOND FLOOR WINDOW.
THAT MIGHT BE, YOU SAID THE CODE, I THINK.
THAT'S WHY I WAS PULLING UP THE TOWN.
THAT'S WHY I JUST PULLED UP THE DRAFT ORDER AND IT, I'M PRETTY SURE THAT CAME, THAT CAME OUT OF THE PREVIOUS GUIDELINES.
WELL, AND IT'S REFERENCING THE TOWN CODE RIGHT ABOVE.
WE'LL JUST HAVE TO, YOU'LL HAVE TO CHANGE THAT REFERENCE ONCE THIS DRAFT GETS ADOPTED.
'CAUSE WE WENT FROM 1 75 1 0 6 TO ARTICLE 10.
SO THESE ARE JUST, UM, YEAH, THEY'RE CURRENTLY REWRITING THE ZONING CODE SO THAT RIGHT.
WE'LL HAVE TO UPDATE THIS WITH COURT.
AND THE SECTION IN THE ZONE PROPOSED ZONING ORDINANCE CAME FROM, UM, THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT ATTORNEYS FOR, SO
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A WHOLE BUNCH OF LAWYERS WROTE A MODEL SIGN ORDINANCE FOR COMMUNITIES TO ADOPT.SO IT'S, IT'S PRETTY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW.
SO THEN WE NEED TO TAKE AN ASTERISK, IN FACT CHECK WHETHER OR NOT THAT 15 FEET ABOVE.
WELL HERE'S THE OTHER THING TOO, I THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE DON'T DUPLICATE INFORMATION THAT'S IN THE CODE.
BECAUSE WHEN YOU START DUPLICATING INFORMATION IS WHEN YOU OPEN YOURSELF UP TO CONTRADICTION AND THINGS CHANGE.
SO LIGHT AND SIGN IS GONNA HAVE TO BE WORDED AND DEFINED AND RIGHT.
MEET THE SAME REQUIREMENTS IN, IN THIS AS IT WOULD IN THE ZONING CODE.
AND LIKE IN OUR NEW PROPOSED ORDINANCE, WE HAVE RESIDENTIAL REQUIREMENTS THAT ARE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT THAN WHAT I SEEN THERE.
SO MAYBE STAFF NEEDS TO CROSS REFERENCE THE SIGN SECTION.
SO WHEN IS THIS UPDATED SIGN THING IN THE TOWN CODE GONNA BE, THIS PLANNING COMMISSION HASN'T EVEN GOTTEN TO THIS SECTION YET.
THEY'RE JUST ABOUT TO FINISH THE ZONES.
SO THEY HAVEN'T GOTTEN TO SUPPLEMENTAL PROVISIONS.
WHAT ARE THE CHANCES OF US GOING THROUGH ALL THIS AND THEN HAVING TO GO THROUGH IT ALL AGAIN? MAYBE WE SHOULD SKIP TO THE NEXT ONE.
YOU WOULDN'T HAVE, I DON'T THINK YOU'D HAVE TO COMPLETELY GO OVER THIS.
I'M JUST SAYING, WHAT IF YOU REMOVE SOME OF THESE, WHY CAN'T YOU JUST SAY THAT SHOT SIGN SHALL BE PLACED FOR PEDESTRIAN VISIBILITY AND SHALL ADHERE TO IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE TOWN ZONE TOWN ZONING ORDINANCE.
RIGHT? BUT WHO'S GONNA THEN THEY, YOU'RE GIVEN THEM.
WE'RE GIVEN THE PERSON THAT'S READING THIS, THAT'S LOOKING FOR QUICK ANSWERS.
A WHOLE ANOTHER STEP TO GO PERUSE THE TOWN CODE, WHICH THEY'RE NOT GONNA DO.
BUT WE HAVE TO SAY IT HERE AND IT HAS TO MATCH THE OTHER DOCUMENT.
BUT THEN IF THIS CODE CHANGES, THEN YOU HAVE TO, EACH TIME THIS CHANGES, THEN YOU'RE CHANGING YOUR GUIDELINES.
I THINK WHEN WE HAVE A VARIABLE LIKE THAT IN THIS DOCUMENT WHERE WE KNOW IT'S GONNA, IT'S LINKED TO SOMETHING ELSE, WE HAVE TO HIGHLIGHT THAT SOMEHOW AND MAKE SURE THAT IT'S UPDATED AND PUT A DATE ON IT THEN FOR RIGHT NOW, KEEP THIS THE WAY IT IS BECAUSE THIS COULD, IF YOU'RE TRYING TO GET THIS DONE, LIKE NOW, IT'S GONNA BE A COUPLE MONTHS BEFORE PLANNING COMMISSION GETS THROUGH THIS DOCUMENT.
WE'LL, WE'LL GO THROUGH IT AND WE CAN THEN UPDATE BECAUSE THIS IS SAYING LIKE 16 SQUARE FEET, WHEREAS YOURS IS SAYING 15 AND THEN LIKE FOR PERMANENT SIGNS SAYING THREE SQUARE FEET, WELL SIZE FOR THE 15 FEET ABOVE THE CYCLE, THAT'S HEIGHT.
WHAT DOES IT SAY IN THERE FOR HEIGHT? OR DOES IT IT DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING IN HERE FOR HEIDI.
FOR PROJECTING SOMETHING AND THEN WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL THE DEFINITIONS YEAH.
MATCH ANY DEFINITIONS THAT THEY'VE PUT IN THERE.
UM, WE'VE ALREADY GOT ANY DEFINITIONS THAT WERE IN THE ZONING ORDINANCE UNDER THE HISTORIC SECTION IN THAT SPREADSHEET.
THE PLANNING COMMISSION THAT THERESA'S BEEN WORKING ON MM-HMM
UM, SO I THINK IF YOU CAN ME THIS, I CAN PUT THAT IN A SPREADSHEET AND WE CAN COMPARE EVERYTHING.
LET'S LEAVE THAT ONE FOR THAT.
THE FIRST ONE I WANT TO ENCOURAGE A NARROW SEATS.
SO WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS IF THEY DON'T WANT TO DO IT? 'CAUSE ENCOURAGED MEANS YOU DON'T HAVE, YOU DON'T WANNA, UM, I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE OPTIONS ARE.
I GUESS IT THREE STANDING SIGN, BUT, UM, SIDEWALK BLADE SIGN OR A HANGING SIDE.
HONEY HOUSE STICKS OUT OFF THE BUILDING.
SOMEBODY TOLD ME THAT A LONG TIME AGO.
IS THAT BACK OR FALLS IN THE TOWN CODE? IF YOU COULDN'T PUT UP A BLADE SIGN ANYMORE, WE'D HAVE TO DO A HANGING SIGN.
WELL THEY, IF THEY HANG IT OVER THE RIGHT OF WAY, THEY ALSO HAVE TO SIGN OLD HARMLESS AGREEMENT.
IN CASE CASE IT FALLS ON SOMEBODY.
I THOUGHT WE HAD SOMETHING WHERE WE WEREN'T DOING THOSE.
SOMEONE TOLD ME THAT ALSO WHEN I MOVED INTO JACKSON STREET, THAT THEY WERE NOT PERMITTED ANY LONGER.
IF THEY WERE THERE, THEIR GRANDFATHERED IN.
BUT IF THEY ARE NOT THERE, SO, SO WE NEED TO FACT CHECK THAT 'CAUSE THAT, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S A RUMOR OR IF THAT FACTUAL.
BUT I THINK THEY'RE OLD AND SOME OF 'EM DON'T EVEN HAVE A SIGN HANGING ON 'EM ANYMORE.
LIKE THEY'RE JUST THE IRON AND THE REASON THAT THEY'RE STILL THERE IS BECAUSE I WAS TOLD IF THEY COME OFF THE BUILDING, THEY CANNOT GO BACK ON.
WELL THERE'S NEW BUSINESSES THAT HAVE FUNDS.
[00:30:01]
WHY IS THAT EXACTLY? I DON'T KNOW.THERE ACTUALLY A SAFETY CONCERN.
I THOUGHT IT WAS A SAFETY THING.
ANYTHING PROJECTING OVER THE, THE RIGHT OF WAY.
LIKE IT COULD FALL ON SOMEBODY.
SO LIKE, LIKE FOR THE TOWN TO PUT THE LIGHTS, STRIP TRANS OF LIGHTS UP.
WE HAD LIKE HOLD HARMLESS AGREEMENTS AND ENGINEERS TO CHECK EVERY ANCHOR THAT WENT INTO THESE ZONINGS.
UM, BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL SUE YOU.
RIGHT? I MEAN YEAH, WE RISK MANAGEMENT.
NOW WE'RE ALL ABOUT REDUCING LIABILITY HERE.
WE GOTTA REMEMBER, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T GET TOO FAR IN THE WEEDS ON THE, ON THE LEGAL STUFF.
THAT'S WHY THE TOWN CODE EXISTS.
AND THE PURPOSE OF THIS DOCUMENT IS SO THE SIGNS KIND OF JIVE WITH THE STREET.
SO WHERE WOULD WE GO TO FIND OUT WHETHER OR NOT BLADE SIGNS ARE PERMITTED? IS THAT THE STAFF'S GONNA CHECK? STAFF WILL CHECK.
WELL WHEN I SEARCH BLADE SIGN IN THE TOWN CODE, THERE'S NO RESULTS.
I LOOK UP PROJECTING SIGN, NOT BLADE SIGN.
'CAUSE I KNOW WE, I'M PRETTY SURE WE STILL ISSUE PROJECTING SIGNS.
WELL WE DO ISSUE PROJECTING SIGNS.
IS THAT DIFFERENT THAN A BLADE SIGN? A PROJECTING SIGN IS ANY SIGN OTHER THAN A WALL AWNING OR MARQUES SIGN, WHICH IS A FIXED ON BUILDING WALL PERPENDICULARLY TYPICALLY BY USE OF BRACKET.
SHOULDN'T USE THE NAME LIKE, YOU SHOULDN'T REFER TO A SIGN IN HERE THAT WE DON'T HAVE A DEFINITION FOR.
BUT THAT'S JUST GONNA CONFUSE.
SO YOU PROBABLY YOU WANT TO TAKE OUT BLADE.
ALL OF REFERENCE TO BLADE SHOULD BE PROJECTING.
SO DO WE SO WE DON'T NEED TO CHECK 'CAUSE IT IS ALLOWED.
SO I'M GONNA REVIEW THIS NOTE.
UNDERWRITING, UM, SIGNS ERECTED IN OR OVER A PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY EXCEPT AS ALLOWED IN THE HISTORIC OVERLAY DISTRICT ARE APPROVED BY TOWN COUNCIL.
BUT AGAIN, IF THEY DID PUT BLADES ON IT, THEY MUST HAVE TAKEN IT OUT.
'CAUSE IT'S A PROJECTED, I'VE NEVER HEARD THAT.
IT'S A PROJECTED SIGNED BY DEFINITION.
UM, THE BEST I CAN RECALL THEN IT'S NOT ON THE PROHIBITED LIST.
IT'S LIKE I SAID THOUGH, IF IT OVERHANGS, IF IT OVER, IF IT GOES OVER THE RIGHT OF WAY TOWN RIGHT OF WAY, THEN THEY SIGN A WHOLE, THE APPLICANT SIGNS A WHOLE HARMLESS AGREEMENT.
SO THE TOWN'S NOT HELD RESPONSIBLE.
AND THE POINT OF THAT LINE, YOU THINK ABOUT A NARROW STREET, YOU CAN'T GET ENOUGH DISTANCE AWAY FROM THE FACADE TO SEE FLAT MOUNTED SIGNS ON THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING.
SO IT'S BETTER TO HAVE 'EM STICKING OUT PERPENDICULAR.
SO YOU CAN SEE WHERE YOU'RE TRYING TO GET TO.
BUT IF YOU'VE GOT TOURISTS, THEY'RE LOOKING FOR THE WINE SHOP.
WELL IF YOU'RE WALKING DOWN THE SIDEWALK.
YOU'RE JUST WANNA BE ABLE TO LOOK UP, HEY, THERE'S THE, WHATEVER THE DONUT SHOP, THERE'S THE BOTTLE.
PRIMARY SIGNAGE SHALL BE SCALED FOR THE LEGIBILITY AT WALKING PACE RATHER THAN DESIGN PRIMARILY FOR VEHICULAR TRAFFIC.
ARE THOSE SIZES, UH, INCLUDED IN THE TOWN CODE? I THINK THEY, THEY SPECIFY YES.
SO WALKING PAST VEHICULAR PACE LEGIBILITY MEANING THE SIZE OF THE FONTS OR THE SIZE OF THE SIGN? I THINK BOTH.
DO YOU NEED THE WORD PRIMARY THEN? CAN IT JUST BE SIGNAGE? SIGNAGE CAN JUST BE SIGNAGE.
SO THIS WARRANTED INTEGRATION, IS THAT A RESOURCE THAT WAS USED? CREATE THIS UHHUH.
IT'S FROM THE WARRANTS AND GUIDELINES.
[00:35:11]
OKAY.SO
BALANCE OF PROPORTION AND ELIGIBILITY IS ESSENTIAL.
SO RIGHT OFF THE BAT SIGNS SHOULD MM-HMM
AND THEN IN THE STANDARDS SIGNS SHALL, SO WE GOTTA PICK ONE.
I THINK CHANGE IN THAT IN THE PARAGRAPH BLURB CHAIN SHOULD SHALL YEP.
AND SHALL BE APPROPRIATELY SCALED.
SO THE STANDARD SIGNS SHALL BE PROPORTIONAL TO THE FACADE ON WHICH THEY'RE MOUNTED.
SO, AND THE PROPORTION IS OUTLINED IN THE NEXT BULLET.
I EXCEED ONE SQUARE FOOT PER LINE.
ONE SQUARE FOOT PER SO DOES BALL MOUNTED MEAN FLAT AGAINST THE WALL OR UHHUH? YES.
SO WE SHOULD HAVE THAT SAME EXPLANATION FOR PROJECTING THEN AS WELL.
WELL THOSE SIZES HAVE TO BE OF WHAT THE TOWN CODE ALLOWS.
WE, WE'VE GOTTA GO BACK AND REFERENCE ALL SIZE STUFF IS GONNA BE RELATED.
YOU, YOU GUYS CAN'T PERMIT ANYTHING OUTSIDE THE, WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE LANGUAGE JIVES WITH THESE.
BUT IF WE HAVE TO, WHAT HE JUST READ OUT OF THE CODE THAT SAID WHAT TOWN COUNCIL PROVES AND THE HISTORIC DISTRICT OVERLAY GUIDELINES SAY.
BUT MY POINT IS, IF WE HAVE THE PROPORTIONS FOR A WALL MOUNTED SIGN, WE SHOULD ALSO ADD, OH, HERE WE GO.
SHALL NOT EXCEED 12 TO BUT SEE THE NEXT ONE, ONE SIZE IT.
WE DON'T REALLY NEED TO TALK ON SIZE TONIGHT BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW THEM.
WE HAVE TO REFERENCE THE CODE AND THEN THE CODE IS GOING TO CHANGE AGAIN.
SO WE, WE DON'T NEED TO GET HUNG UP ON THE SIZE TONIGHT 'CAUSE WE CAN'T EVEN GET TRUE.
MY POINT HERE THOUGH IS THAT THE SECOND BULLET IS A PROPORTIONAL NOTE AND THE THIRD BULLET IS AN ACTUAL SIZE, WHICH IS NOT PROPORTIONAL.
WHEREAS THE GENERAL, SEE THE GENERAL, UH, DIRECTIVE HERE IS THAT IT'S PROPORTIONAL AND YOU CAN, WE CAN LEAVE THIS ACTUAL NUMBER.
I THINK THE GIST OF THE PROPORTIONAL THING IS LIKE IF YOU GET A SKINNY TALL BUILDING, YOU PUT A SKINNY TALL SIGN ON AND IF YOU'VE GOT A BIG BAT SHORT BUILDING, YOU PUT A BIG BAT, SHORT SIGN ON IT.
YOU KNOW, SO IT KIND OF JIVE AT THE SHAPE OF THE BUILDING.
SO I THINK WE CAN DOUBLE CHECK, BUT NOT THE PROPORTIONS THAT ARE LISTED.
WE ALSO HAVE SIGN PERCENTAGES.
YOU CAN'T COVER 50% OF THE SIZE, YOU KNOW THE CADE OF THE BUILDING.
WELL, I I THINK THAT GOES ALONG.
IT'S SIMILAR TO THAT SECOND BULLET PROPORTION PERCENT, WHATEVER, HOWEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT.
BUT THE THIRD BULLET DOESN'T FALL IN LINE WITH THAT.
AND JUST THAT IT CAN'T EXCEED THIS AMOUNT.
IT MAY NOT JIVE 'CAUSE I'VE DRUG IT IN FROM WARRANT, SO.
SO MAYBE WE CAN A ADD A, UH, CHANGE THAT SENTENCE SO THAT IT SAYS PROJECTING SIGN SHALL NOT EXCEED AND LEAVE IT BLANK FOR NOW.
AND WE COULD CLARIFY IT A LITTLE FURTHER.
IT'S LIKE KIND, IT'S KIND OF A RULE OF THUMB STATEMENT.
IT'S LIKE THEY SHOULD NOT EXCEED YADA YADA.
UNLESS APPROVED BY WHO WAS IT? COUNCIL.
YOU KNOW, THERE'S OTHER WAYS TO DO IT, BUT GENERALLY IT'S GOTTA BE THIS SIZE.
SO CAN, CAN WE REWRITE THE THIRD BULLET SO FAR? DOES, DOES TON'S GUIDELINES SAY SHALL UM, I DON'T REMEMBER IF IT SAID SHALL OR NOT, BUT OURS DO.
IT SHALL SAY SHALL SHOULD OR SHOULD BECAUSE GUIDELINES ARE GUIDELINES.
SO SHOULD IT SAY SHOULD, WELL THE WHOLE CAN IT SHOULD SAY SHALL THAT'S AN ATTORNEY QUESTION.
IT IS, BUT THE WHOLE GIST OF REWRITING THESE THINGS IS TO MAKE THEM MORE FIRM.
AND IF WE HAVE A SOLID BACKING IN THE CODE THAT WE'RE FALLING BACK ON, YOU KNOW? RIGHT.
WE'LL JUST MAYBE WE'LL JUST IF WE HAVE, IF WE HAVE A STATEMENT IN THERE, IT ISN'T, WE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING IN THE TOWN CODE TO FALL BACK ON, WE CAN CHANGE IT TO SHOULD IF WE DON'T, IT'S A SHALL.
[00:40:01]
SO THE THIRD BULLET, CAN WE WRITE IT LIKE THE SECOND ONE? PROJECTING SIGNS SHALL NOT EXCEED THE BLANK SQUARE FEET PER LINEAR FOOT OF BUILDING WIDTH.I'M SORRY YOU IF IT PROJECT OBJECT SHALL NOT EXCEED BLANK SQUARE FEET OF BUILDING WIDTH.
A LINEAR PUT OF BUILDING WIDTH.
BUT SAY PROJECTING SIGNS AND SAY WALL-MOUNTED SIGNS.
AND IT MIGHT BE THE SAME AS WALL-MOUNTED, BUT IT MIGHT BE DIFFERENT.
DO YOU WANT IT TO SAY SQUARE FEET OR LINEAR FEET? PROJECTING SIGNS SHALL NOT EXCEED BLANK SQUARE FEET FOR LINEAR FOOT FILL WIDTH.
SO HERE'S THE OTHER THING TOO.
DOES IT CHANGE THAT? I THINK IT DOES.
THE WALL MOUNT FLUSH MOUNTED SIGN COULD BE MUCH BIGGER.
THE PROJECTING SIGN, YOU DON'T WANT A 15 FOOT PROJECTING SIGN HANGING OUT INTO THE STREET, STICKING OFF THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING, BUT LEAVING IT AS A NOT TO EXCEED SIZE.
THEY CAN DO A 16 SQUARE FOOT SIGN.
THE SIZE, THE SIZE PORTION OF THIS MAY JUST NEED TO BE, NEED TO COMPLY WITH TOWN CODE.
IT MAY NEED TO BE THAT SIMPLE.
THE SIZE OF THE SIGN IN THE HISTORIC OVERLAY DISTRICT MUST BE OR SHALL BE IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE SIGN OR THE TOWN FRONT RULES.
AND CAN WE PUT A, A LINK IN THERE SO THEY CAN CLICK ON, PUT A LINK BUT I THINK SHOULD REFERENCE THE, SO THE PAPER GUIDELINES ARE GONNA BE WHERE YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO ADD THE ADDITIONAL 'CAUSE IN THE ACTUAL ONLINE OUR, OUR CODE IS THAT WAY ALREADY FOR LIKE PARKING SAYS MUST MEET CODE, YOU KNOW, 1 7 5 DASH 1 48 AND YOU CLICK, YOU CAN CLICK THAT AND IT TAKES YOU TO 1 48.
WHICH STATES, SO WE JUST HAVE THE REFERENCE FOR THAT.
YEAH, YOU WOULD HAVE IT HIGHLIGHTED IN LINK TO WHERE THEY CAN CLICK THAT AND IT WOULD TAKE THEM TO THE SIZE MM-HMM
I'M KIND OF THINKING YOU, I MEAN YOU GUYS ARE CONCERNED WITH THE AESTHETICS, RIGHT? YEAH.
IT'S, WE'RE OUR JOB WHEN WE'RE REVIEWING NEEDS TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE ZONING ORDINANCE.
SO MY THOUGHT IS LIKE THINGS LIKE SIZE, QUANTITY AND THE PERMITTED TYPES OF SIGNS NEED TO BE SOLID IN THE ZONING ORDINANCE.
AND THEN YOUR GUIDELINES JUST NEED TO REFER TO THAT.
BUT COLORS, MATERIALS, LIGHTING, RIGHT.
UM, STYLISTIC ELEMENTS OF IT SIZE FALLS UNDER THAT CATEGORY THOUGH.
THAT'S WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WITH PROPORTION.
I JUST DON'T WANT THIS TO BE AT ODDS WITH THE, I DON'T EITHER.
SO I DON'T THINK WE CAN ALLOW IT TO BE BIGGER, BUT WE CERTAINLY CAN RESTRICT IT TO BE SMALLER DEPENDING ON THE PROPORTION OF THE BUILDING.
THEY COULDN'T HAVE TO CALL UHUH BECAUSE TOWN CODE OVER WHAT THESE ARE LIKE HE SAID THESE ARE GUIDELINES YOU CAN'T GO AGAINST TOWN CODE.
BUT WHEN THEY GIVE A SIZE THAT'S A MAXIMAL TRUE.
I'M GUESSING THE TOWN CODE PROBABLY SAYS NOT CAN'T EXCEED YADA YADA THREE 10 FEET.
OR IT COULD BE SOMETHING LIKE SMALLER.
OUR CODES ARE MAXIMUM LIKE OUR TIME LIMIT MAXIMUM AS ALLOWED.
THEY WANNA GO FOR THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT THEY'RE PAYING.
I MEAN THIS IS THEIR VISIBILITY, RIGHT.
UM, AND THE CODE IS WRITTEN SO THAT THAT'S AESTHETICALLY CORRECT.
I MEAN IT'S NOT BUT MAYBE THAT'S IN A PARKING LOT OR SOMETHING.
RIGHT? I MEAN IT CAN BE, WE REGULATE THE NUMBER BESIDES THE TYPE THERE'S ZONING ONE THAT'S ALREADY DOES THAT.
SO WHAT'S APPROPRIATE IN A ONE PLACE MIGHT NOT BE APPROPRIATE ON MAIN STREET.
YOU UNDERSTAND IT'S A CASE BY CASE BASIS.
WHAT'S APPROPRIATE AT THE SHOPPING CENTER IS NOT APPROPRIATE HERE ON THAT STREET.
I THINK WE NEED TO LAY PROPORTIONS IN THERE, BUT I THINK MAYBE WE NEED TO COME BACK TO THAT AS FAR AS WHAT THOSE EXACT PROPORTIONS ARE.
BUT I THINK THAT THAT BOTH WALL MOUNTED SIGNS AND PROJECTING SIGNS SHOULD BE A PRO PROPORTIONAL THING.
I DUNNO HOW YOU FIGURED THAT OUT.
ALRIGHT, LET'S NOT, WHAT WE'RE GONNA DECIDE TONIGHT, THE STANDARDS THING.
WE KNOW WE NEED TO REFERENCE THE TAIL CODE.
WE NEED TO SEE, WE HAVE TO REFERENCE THE MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE SIZE, BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO STATE THAT
[00:45:01]
SIGNS ARE JUDGED ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS.AND YOUR PROPOSAL WILL BE REVIEWED BY THE BAR AND WE'LL MAKE A JUDGMENT, YOU KNOW, BUT IT BASED ON THESE GUIDELINES, BASED ON THE GUIDELINES WHICH WILL STATE MAKE, CAN MATCH THE BUILDING WITH A GIANT GAUDY SIGN ON A LITTLE SHOP WITH A NICE LITTLE SIGN.
SO CON, CAN WE JUST HIGHLIGHT THE STANDARD SECTION OF THIS, WHAT WE'RE WORKING ON RIGHT NOW AND SAY REVISIT? YEAH.
I PUT SOME COMMENTS OFF TO THE SIDE OF WHAT YOU GUYS ARE SAYING YOU WANT.
AND MATCHING WITH CODE AND VARIOUS THINGS.
IS IT OKAY THOUGH IF WE ACTUALLY STRIKE THE THIRD BULLET? YEAH, I JUST, I THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT DISTINCTION BECAUSE THERE PROBABLY IS ONE IN THE CODE, I'M NOT SURE ENTIRELY, BUT BETWEEN A FLUSH MOUNT AND WALL MOUNT INSIDE.
I'D LOVE TO STRIKE THAT THIRD BULLET COMPLETELY AND ADD ADD A DIFFERENT YEAH COMPLETELY.
AND ADD ONE, ADD A DIFFERENT BULLET THAT, THAT MIMICS THE WORDING.
THAT'S WHAT I HERE OF THE WALL MOUNTED.
I THINK WE NEED TO ADDRESS BOTH, BUT I THINK IT NEEDS TO, THEY BOTH NEED TO BE PROPORTIONAL RATHER THAN DO NOT EXCEED.
WE MIGHT EVEN JUST BE ABLE TO COMBINE THEM DEPENDING ON WHAT THE CODE SAYS.
PROJECT ANY AND WALL, THEN IT'S ON SHALL NOT EXCEED ONE SQUARE FOOT BUT NO CRASH.
AGENDA SIGN ORDINANCE IS SIGNS IN THE HISTORIC OVERLAY DISTRICT AND THEN THERE'S FOUR COA AREA HEIGHT, LOCATION, AND SIZE SIGN REQUIREMENTS, ADDITIONAL REVIEW CRITERIA AND SIGNS WITHIN A PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY.
WHAT IS THE SAFER SIZE? IT SAYS AREA HEIGHT AND LOCATION OF SIGNS.
THE AREA HEIGHT AND LOCATION STANDARDS FOR THE UNDERLYING ZONING DISTRICT SHALL BE APPLICABLE TO SIGNS ERECTED IN THE HISTORIC OVERLAY.
DISTRICT SIGN REQUIREMENTS MAY BE WAIVED.
THE ZONING ADMINISTRATOR MAY AUTHORIZE THE WAIVER OF THE SIGN REQUIREMENTS FOR SETBACK, SPACING, NUMBER FRONTAGE HEIGHT AREA, AND TYPE OF SIGNS WITHIN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT.
IF THE BOARD OF ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW APPROVES A SPECIFIC SIGN PROPOSAL CONSISTENT WITH THE CHARACTER OF THE BUILDING TO WHICH IT RELATES AND OTHER SURROUNDING PROPERTIES, IN NO CASE HOWEVER, MAY ASSIGN EXCEED A MAXIMUM OF 60 SQUARE FEET.
ANY SIGN ERECT WITHIN THE HISTORIC OVERLAY DISTRICT SHALL ALSO SATISFY ALL APPLICABLE STANDARDS AND GUIDELINES ADOPTED BY THE BAR.
SO IT'S REFERENCING BACK TO OUR GUIDELINES AS THE RULE.
SO WE CAN DO WHATEVER WE WANT, RIGHT? YEAH, PERFECT.
AS LONG AS IT'S NOT MORE THAN 60 FEET.
SO WHAT'S THE WIDEST BUILDING ON MAIN STREET? PROBABLY 50 FEET MAYBE.
IS IT THE MOVIE THEATER? YEAH.
THE WALL MOUNT SIGN SHOULD NOT EXCEED ONE SQUARE FOOT PER LINEAR FEET BUILDING WIDTH.
SO THAT'S, YOU CAN HAVE A 50 SQUARE FOOT SIGN OR A 50 FOOT WIDE BUILDING.
ONE ONE FOOT TALL, WELL SQUARE FEET, 50 SQUARE FEET EVERY, ANY SIZE YOU WANT.
THAT MIGHT GET INTO OBSCURING WINDOWS.
SO THE ONE, THE ONE THE QUESTION THAT WE REALLY NEED TO ASK IS PROJECTING SIGNS.
THEY'RE SAYING PROJECTING SIGNS GENERALLY SHOULD NOT BE BIGGER THAN 12 TO 16 SQUARE FEET, BUT THERE'S NOTHING IN THE CODE 'CAUSE IT'S OUR JOB AND TO REP TO MAKE STANDARD IN THE GUIDELINES.
SO WHAT DOES 12 TO 16 FEET LOOK LIKE? SQUARE FEET.
THAT'S 12 SQUARE FEET, TWO FEET DEEP BY EIGHT, EIGHT FEET LONG.
YEAH, THAT'S A HALF A SHEET OF PLYWOOD.
STILL I THINK THAT IT SHOULD, THEY SHOULD, THEY SHOULD MATCH AND HOW THEY'RE PRESENTED, WHETHER IT'S SIZE OR PROPORTION.
[00:50:01]
BUT I THINK GIVEN THAT I GET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, BUT THEY'RE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ANIMALS.SO I MEAN YOU CAN'T MAKE A DO A LINEAR PROPORTION ON A PROJECTING SIGN LIKE YOU COULD ON A FLAT, RIGHT? NO, NO.
IT CANING SIGN HAS TO BE A SQUARE FOOT LIMIT.
SO YOU'RE SAYING WHAT TIER LESS THAN THE WALL SIDE? YOU'RE SAYING WHAT TIER IS ACTUALLY THE BEST WAY TO STATE IT? YES, I THINK SO.
SO WE'RE GOING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL.
I THINK WE JUST LEAVE IT AS IT WAS.
AND THEN I THINK WE JUST DON'T SAY PROJECTING SIGNS SHALL NOT EXCEED 16 SQUARE FEET.
CAN WE TAKE OUT THE WORD GENERALLY? YEAH.
PROJECTING SIGNS SHALL NOT EXCEED 16 SQUARE FEET IN THE AREA.
SO THAT ONE SQUARE FOOT FOR THE WALL MOUNTED SIGNS THAT THAT'S, THAT'S ACTUALLY YOU MIGHT EVEN BE BIGGER THAN THE 16 SQUARE FEET.
YEAH, BUT IT'S A DIFFERENT BUT IT'S A DIFFERENT TYPE OF SIZE.
THAT'S A DIFFERENT, EXCUSE ME.
YOU'RE LEAVING IN THE 12 TO 16.
NO, I'M JUST GONNA PROJECTING SIGNS.
SHALL NOT EXCEED 16 SQUARE FEET AREA.
WE CAN KEEP ALL OUR SHALLS AND DOWN.
CAN WE MOVE ON TO COLOR? ALRIGHT.
COLOR OF DESIGN IS AN IMPORTANT DESIGN ELEMENT THAT SHOULD COMPLIMENT THE ARCHITECTURE OF THE BUILDING, OF THE HISTORIC STREET SCAPE.
MUTED, NEUTRAL AND EARTH TONES ARE MOST COMPATIBLE.
ANYTHING YOU'D LIKE TO ADD TO THAT LITTLE COLOR BLURB? OH WAIT, THERE'S YOUR, SORRY.
BRIGHTER TONES CAN PROVIDE EMPHASIS BUT SHOULD BE USED SPARINGLY, FLUORESCENT OR HIGHLY REFLECTIVE COLORS DETRACT FROM HISTORIC CHARACTER AND ARE NOT APPROPRIATE.
SO STANDARDS AGAIN, THEY KIND OF REPEAT THE SAME THING IN THE BLUR.
SIGN COLORS SHALL BE COMPATIBLE WITH THE BUILDING AND SURROUNDING CONTEXT.
CONTEXT MIGHT BE A CURIOUS WORD THERE.
HOW ABOUT, DIDN'T WE USE STREETS SCAPE ABOVE? YES.
MAYBE WE SHOULD STICK WITH THE SAME LANGUAGE.
COUNTY AND SURROUNDING STREET SCAPE.
OH, IT SAYS ABOVE ON THE LINE, ONE 50 SIGN SHALL BE COMPATIBLE.
COMPATIBLE WITH THE BUILDING ARCHITECTURE AND THE STREET SCAPE.
BRIGHTER COLORS MAY BE USED AS ACCENTS BUT SHALL NOT DOMINATE THE DESIGN.
THAT'S PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD.
FLUORESCENT AND HIGHLY REFLECTIVE COLORS AREN'T PROHIBITED.
ANYTHING WE WANT TO ADD FOR COLOR? MAN, I THINK THAT'S A NEW RECORD.
SO LIGHTING CAN ILLUMINATE THE SIGN WITHOUT OVERWHELMING THE BUILDING OR STREET SCAPE FIXTURES SHOULD BE SCALED AND DESIGNED TO MINIMIZE GLARE.
HISTORICALLY COMPATIBLE LIGHTING METHODS SUCH AS GOOSENECKS OR CONCEALED LIGHTING OR PREFERRED INTERNAL PLASTIC BOX SIGNS ARE NOT APPROPRIATE IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT.
INTERNALLY LIGHTED PLASTIC BOX SIGNS.
OR INTERNALLY ILLUMINATED, I GUESS YES IS A BETTER WAY TO SAY IT.
OH, THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS ON BULLET TWO.
SO WHAT ARE WE DOING THERE? NO, WE NEED TO ADD, WE NEED TO ADD ILLUMINATED AFTER INTERNAL IN THE, UH, INTERNALLY ILLUMINATE INTERNAL, INTERNALLY ILLUMINATED.
INTERNALLY ILLUMINATED PLASTIC DOCK SIGNS ARE NOT PERFECT IN HISTORIC DISTRICT.
FINE LIGHTING SHALL BE DESIGNED TO MINIMIZE GLARE AND LIGHT SPILL.
[00:55:05]
THAT MAKES SENSE TO ME.BUT IT MAKES SENSE TO, SO I HAVE A QUESTION BECAUSE IN THE VILLAGE WHERE I MOVED FROM, WE HAD AN ISSUE WITH A, UM, RITE AID.
IT WAS BUILT RIGHT IN OUR LITTLE DOWNTOWN AND THEIR PARKING LOT LIGHTS WHILE THEY WERE UM, REALLY BEAUTIFUL FIXTURES WERE SO BRIGHT MM-HMM
AND IT WAS SURROUNDED ON TWO SIDES BY RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS AND THEY WERE CALLING IT THE PRISON YARD
FORTUNATELY IN THE BUILDING CODE, THERE WAS A LIMIT TO THE HOWEVER YOU MEASURE LIGHT FOOT CANDLES.
SO WE HAD, WE HAD ONE OF THE LOCAL PEOPLE WHO KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING, STAND THERE AND MEASURE THE LIGHT.
AND WE WROTE TO RITE AID AND, AND COMPLAINED ABOUT IT AND THEY CAME IN AND CHANGED IT.
SO I DON'T KNOW IF, IF THERE'S NUMBERS, I MEAN, HOW DO, IT SEEMS LIKE YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOMETHING TO JUDGE THAT AGAINST.
YOU JUST CAN'T SAY, OH, IT'S TOO, IT'S TOO BRIGHT.
DO WE HAVE ANYTHING LIKE THAT DANIEL? WE HAVE IN OUR TOWN? OH, WE PROBABLY DO.
I DON'T, DO WE HAVE ANOTHER QUICK, DO WE HAVE ANY KIND OF A DARK SKIES AN ISSUE? WE HAVE DARK SKY, UH, GOT ANY TOWN CODE AND I MEAN THE ELECTRIC DEPARTMENT MAY BE COMING HERE NEXT MONTH TO TALK WITH YOU GUYS ABOUT THE, THOSE LIGHT FIXTURES.
THOSE REALLY AWFUL PURPLE ONES.
YOU GUYS HAVEN'T SEEN THOSE? UH OH, PURPLE LIGHTS.
ALL THE NEW LIGHTS THAT THEY PUT UP.
COMING IN FRONT OF MELTING POT.
YOU DRIVE OVER THERE AT NIGHT AND IT'S PURPLE.
EVERYTHING IS REALLY, IT'S BIZARRE AT MOUNTAIN POT.
IS THAT THE TOWN FLIGHT? YEAH.
WHY ARE THEY DOING THAT? OKAY.
I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY'RE THAT COLORED, BUT IT'S BIZARRE.
IS THAT THE GOLD, IS THAT THE ACTUAL LIGHT PICTURE OR IS IT THE SHADE? NO, NO, NO.
IT'S THE, IT'S LIKE LE TEMPERATURE ENERGY SERVICES TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL OF OUR NEW LIGHTS ARE DARK SKY COMPLIANCE.
I GUESS THAT'S HOW THEY'RE GETTING AROUND THE, YOU GET THE SAME AMOUNT OF ILLUMINATION, BUT I THOUGHT THEY JUST LOOKED REALLY WHITE AND BRIGHT COMPARED BLUE.
YEAH, THEY'RE DEFINITELY DIFFERENT THAN A SOFT.
THEY PUT ONE IN FRONT OF MY HOUSE.
I MEAN, YOU WERE COMING IN AT NIGHT, BUT, SO HERE'S MY QUESTION.
SO THE LIGHT WAS ALREADY THERE IN FRONT OF YOUR HOUSE, BUT THEY CHANGED WHAT? WELL, THEY ONLY CHANGED IT BECAUSE I HAD A TRANSFORMER BLUE 'CAUSE OF A SQUIRREL, FRIEND'S FRIDAY AND IT BLEW EVERYTHING.
SO THE LIGHT THEY PUT IN WAS THERE IS THE BRIGHTER ONE.
SO IT'S ILLUMINATING YOUR HOUSE MORE? I DON'T NOTICE A OH YEAH.
WE'VE HAD COMPLAINTS FROM PEOPLE WHEN THEY PUT THE NEW LIGHTS IN.
BUT I FIGURED THAT'S THE WAY IT IS.
SO IS THERE ANYTHING IN THE CODE THAT REFERENCES THE LUMENS? THE, WHAT IS IT? CANDLE PANEL, CANDLE FOOT, CANDLE FOOT CANDLES.
UM, I THINK IN OUR, UH, IN THE STANDARDS IN CONSTRUCTION MANUAL, I THINK THAT THERE'S SOMETHING IN THERE ABOUT THE LUMENS WHEN THEY'RE DOING THEIR SITE PLANS.
UM, BUT THAT'S IN, THAT'S IN LIKE NEW DEVELOPMENT.
THAT'S FOR BRAND NEW CONSTRUCTION.
UM, AND WE HAVE A NEW DRAFT OF THAT.
UM, HUGE CHANGING, I GUESS WE NEED A KIND OF A POINT OF REFERENCE.
IT'S LIKE WHEN YOU WALK DOWN MAIN STREET DURING THE HOLIDAYS WHEN YOU HAVE ALL THE LIGHTS STRUNG UP, IT'S NICE, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE SOFTER, MORE YELLOW.
THOSE DON'T HURT YOUR EYES WHEN YOU'RE THRIVING.
WHERE SOME OF 'EM, RIGHT? YEAH.
I NEED TO KNOW WHAT THAT NUMBER IS SO WE CAN REFERENCE IT IN HERE BECAUSE IT'S, THAT'S CALLED DIRTY GLOBE.
I THINK WE MEASURE IT SO MANY FEET OFF THE, YOU HAVE TO BE A CERTAIN DISTANCE FROM THE SOURCE.
SO IF WE COULD, WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS MAKE IT COHESIVE.
SO ANYTHING THAT'S ADDED IN A SIGN WE KIND OF MATCH.
MAYBE CONNIE, WE CAN MAKE A NOTE TO INCLUDE A STANDARD THAT REFERENCES, UM, A FOOT CANDLE AND A TEMPERATURE RANGE THAT MATCHES KIND OF WHAT WE HAVE GOING ON WITH THE HANGING LIGHTS ABOVE THE STREET.
[01:00:02]
SO ALL THE SIGNS KIND OF BLEND IN.I DON'T FIND OUT WHAT THOSE ARE.
I MEAN, I KNOW IT'S A WARM WHITE RIGHT.
YOU KNOW, ARE THOSE LEDS ARE STRING LIGHTS ABOVE THE STREET? LEDS? THOSE ARE TWO DIFFERENT COLORS OF LIGHTS TOO.
THEY'RE NOT THE YEAH, NONE OF THOSE ARE THE SAME.
AND SOMETIMES WHEN LIZZIE LIGHTS THE LIGHT POLES, THEY'RE PURPLELY BLUE.
SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE LIGHT SETTINGS ON THE ONES THAT WRAP AROUND.
OH, SHE'S GOT INTEREST CHANGE.
WELL, WE CAN CONTROL THE SIGNS AT LEAST.
AND IF WE WANT THE OVERALL AESTHETIC TO KIND OF BE A WARMISH COLOR, WE JUST SAY THAT IN HERE.
SO INSTEAD OF SAYING MINIMIZE CLEAR, IT SEEMS LIKE THERE NEEDS TO BE A LIMIT.
I MEAN, IT SEEMS IT THIS THIS KIND OF INFORMATION IS, IS QUANTITATIVE.
IT SEEMS LIKE THERE NEEDS TO BE NUMBERS.
WELL, I PUT IN WHAT HE SAID, UM, TO PUT IN A INCLUDE STANDARDS THAT REFERENCE A FOOT CANDLE AND TEMPERATURE WITH AN OVERALL WARM COLOR TEMPERATURE.
I THINK WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO SAY THERE, MINIMIZING GLARE.
YOU DON'T WANT A SIGN WITH A SUPER BRIGHT LED ON IT THAT WASHES OUT, YOU KNOW, THE LANGUAGE OF THE SIGN.
OH, RELATIVELY TONED DOWN LIGHT.
AND WE DON'T WANT THE LIGHT COMING OUTTA THE SIGN TO BLIND THE REST OF THE STREET.
SO IT HAS TO BE AN APPROPRIATELY SIZED LIGHT FOR THE SIZE OF THE SIGN AND LONG TEMPERATURE AND
SO IT WOULD BE A ONE LIGHT WITH A YELLOW A SHOE.
3000 K IS WHAT THEY'RE PUTTING IN.
YOU SAY, UH, WHO DOES THAT? YEAH.
SO, SO 3000 KK IS KELVIN AND IS INDICATES A WARM WHITE LIGHT WITH A YELLOWISH HUE.
SO NOT BUT THAT'S NOT, THAT'S NOT WHAT'S IN FRONT.
THAT'S A NICE WAY TO INCORPORATE THAT.
EXCUSE AND HAS A NUMBER TO GO WITH IT.
SOMEBODY CAN GO AND MEASURE WHAT'S IN FRONT OF THEIR HOUSE.
I'LL COME OUT THERE WITH MY LIGHT MEASURE.
SO I MEAN, IF IT WAS IN MY BEDROOM, I WOULD MIND, BUT IT'S MY LIVING ROOM AND DINING ROOM.
SO I'M CURIOUS, WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF LIGHT SPILL? MEANING IT'S, THAT'S LIKE, IT'S A WHOLE BULB GOING EVERYWHERE.
SO IN MY MIND YOU HAVE A LITTLE SIGN AND YOU WANT TO JUST ILLUMINATE THE SIGN.
JUST ENOUGH LIGHT TO MAKE THE SIGN LEGIBLE AT NIGHT AND NO MORE.
YOU DON'T WANT, AGAIN, TOO MUCH LIGHT THAT IT WASHES OUT THE SIGN.
AND EVEN MORE LIGHT THAT IT'S JUST AWAY FROM THE SUN BLOWING OUT EVERYTHING.
YOU JUST WANT JUST ENOUGH LIGHT TO LIGHT UP THE SIGN AND THAT'S IT.
I THINK YOU HAVE LESS ROOM PRECIPITATION AT THE SHELL.
SO THAT GOOSENECK FIXTURE IS WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
OR THERE'D BE A, YOU KNOW, A LITTLE LEDGE ABOVE THE SIGN THAT WOULD HAVE OH, INSIDE.
WHAT WOULD THE DEFINITION OF OVERSIZED FIXTURE BE GENERALLY? IS THAT A PROPORTION THING OR IS THAT AN ACTUAL SIZE? THAT'S GOOD QUESTION.
CONCEAL EXPOSED RACEWAYS AND OVERSIZED PICTURES ARE NOT APPROPRIATE.
SO WE DON'T WANT, YOU KNOW, A WORLD WAR II ERA SPOTLIGHT SHINING ON A, ON A SIDE
SO ALTHOUGH ONE OF THOSE WOULD BE, I THINK WE NEED TO BE, WE NEED TO BE MORE SPECIFIC ON THAT ONE.
I THINK WE COULD SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT I JUST SAID, IT'S LIKE THE LIGHT SHOULD ONLY ILLUMINATE, SHOULD BE JUST LARGE ENOUGH TO ILLUMINATE THE SIGN AND NO MORE.
WHERE DO YOU WANT THAT? UNDER OVERSIZED FIXTURES.
THE LIGHT SHOULD BE, SAY THAT AGAIN.
DO YOU REMEMBER? WAIT A MINUTE.
I'M NOT, I GOTTA SEE WHERE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OVERSIZED FIXTURES.
[01:05:01]
OUR ENERGY ENERGY SERVICES DIRECTOR WILL COME TO ONE OF YOUR WORK SESSIONS AND TALK EVERYTHING LIGHTS WITH YOU GUYS IF YOU'D LIKE IT.SO EXPOSED RACE WAVES AND IS THAT WHERE YOU'RE CHANGING IT? YES.
WHAT ARE WE SAYING THERE? I THINK OVERSIZED FIXTURES ARE NOT APPROPRIATE.
IT'S TOTALLY FINE, BUT I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE A SUB BULLET OR MAYBE ANOTHER SENTENCE THERE.
ENOUGH TO JUST ILLUMINATE THE SIGN.
WHAT, WHAT ARE YOU TAKING OUT? NOTHING.
WE'RE ADDING OR NOT APPROPRIATE.
THIS WILL JUST BE A WHOLE NEW SENTENCE CON.
AND SO WE'LL JUST PUT A PERIOD AT THE END OF, ARE NOT APPROPRIATE.
AND THEN ADD THIS AS ANOTHER SENTENCE.
THE LIGHT FIXTURE SHOULD BE JUST LARGE ENOUGH TO ELIMINATE THE SIGN.
AND THEN MORE SHALL SHELBY, WE LEFT SOME SHOULDS IN OTHER PLACES UP HERE.
I'M JUST LETTING YOU KNOW WHERE WE HAVE TO DO.
WELL, LIGHTING, UNDER LIGHTING.
LIGHTING SHOULD ELIMINATE THE, WE CHANGED THAT ALREADY.
WE MAY HAVE TO CHANGE THE NAME OF THIS DOCUMENT TO THE COLLIN'S RULES.
REQUIREMENTS GUIDANCE IS, I'M HAPPY ABOUT THAT.
CHANGE IT, GET IT OUT OF THERE.
BUT IT ALSO LEAVES LESS ROOM FOR INTERPRETATION FOR YOU ALL.
THEN THEY'RE MANDATORY, THEY'RE REQUIRED.
THEN THERE'S A WHOLE LOT LESS OF WELL, I THINK BY VIRTUE OF THERE'S A LOT LESS OF DISCUSSION AND PREFERENCE BY VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY'RE LISTED AS GUIDELINES.
I THINK THAT SH THAT SHOULD SETTLE THAT DIFFERENTIATION AND BY SAYING, SHALL IT PROVIDES THE USER WITH MORE CLEAR DIRECTION.
BUT ARE YOU ALSO RUNNING THE RISK OF MAKING EVERYTHING COOKIE PUTTER LIKE THE REST OF TOWN? WHERE'S YOUR VISA, YOUR FLEXIBILITY FOR SOMETHING THAT'S APPROPRIATE OR DOWNTOWN THAT MAYBE
SO LET'S, LET'S, LET'S PICK A, UM, SHALL BE COMPATIBLE WITH THE BUILDING THAT'S PRETTY OPEN, BUT SHOULD BE COMPATIBLE WITH THE BUILDING, GIVES YOU THE OPTION OF BEING COMPATIBLE OR NOT.
AND I THINK IT'S CO IN THIS SECTION SPECIFICALLY WHERE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT LIGHTING, I THINK SETTING CLEAR RULES WHERE WE HAVE THE AUTHORITY BASED ON THE TOWN CODE IS IMPORTANT.
LIKE, WE DON'T WANT SUPER BRIGHT LEDS ON MAIN STREET TO SHALL BE A WARM WHITE COLOR AND THEY SHALL NOT ILLUMINATE ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE SIGN.
SO ENERGY SERVICES DIRECTOR AND THE HEAD OF ACES ARE WILLING TO COME TO YOUR, YOUR NEXT MONTH'S MEETING.
AND THEY'RE WILLING TO ALSO ASK YOU TO DO A SITE VISIT TO LOOK AT WHO A NIGHTTIME, BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING HERE ABOUT CONCEALED LEDS.
IN THAT THIRD BULLET UNDER STANDARDS, IS IT, UM, GOOSENECK FIXTURES OR CONCEALED LEDS? YEAH.
IS THAT SOMETHING Y'ALL WANT? BUT THE LED CAN, YOU CAN CHANGE THE COLOR OF THE LED, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? YEAH, SOME OF 'EM YOU CAN, YEAH.
I THINK, LAURA, I LIKE YOUR POINT.
WE DON'T WANT TO BE OVERBEARING.
YOU NEED TO FIND THAT, WANT THAT LINE.
BUT I THINK THIS SECTION SPECIFICALLY, WOULD YOU WANT TO BE A LITTLE MORE STRICT? LIKE NO ILLUMINATED PLASTIC BOXES? RIGHT.
MATERIALS, CHOICE OF MATERIALS HAS A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON HOW SIGN CONTRIBUTES TO THE DISTRICT.
DURABLE, TRADITIONAL MATERIALS SUCH AS PAINTED WOOD, CARBED PANELS, METAL AND EARTH MATERIALS THAT APPEAR TEMPORARY OR INAUTHENTIC, SUCH AS VINYL AND PLASTIC ARE NOT APPROPRIATE.
IT'S KIND OF RIGHT UP THERE WITH THE PLASTIC BOX SIGN.
BUT THIS IS ALSO AN ISSUE BECAUSE YEAH.
ALL MODERN SIGN MANUFACTURERS DO EVERYTHING OUT OF VINYL.
WELL, AND EVEN, EVEN THE VINYL SIGNS CAN BE, IT CAN BE CUT DESIGNED, MANUFACTURED IN A WAY.
BUT A LOT OF THESE GUYS, THEY HAVE A, A, CC ROUTER.
AND THEY USE PLASTIC AND THEY CUT THE THING
[01:10:01]
OUT TO LOOK LIKE WOOD.WOULD YOU BE AVERSE TO THEM USING SOMETHING LIKE THAT? COMPOSITE SIDING THAT LOOKS LIKE WOOD.
I JUST, WE GOTTA BE REALISTIC.
IT'S LIKE YOU'RE GONNA BE HARD PRESSED TO FIND ANYBODY LOCAL THAT'S GONNA MAKE A TRADITIONAL METAL SIGN OR TRADITIONAL.
BUT I THINK THIS IS A PERFECT CONSTRUCTED OF DURABLE HIGH QUALITY MATERIALS.
THAT CAN BE PLASTIC AS THE PREFERENCE, BUT BUT THEN YOU HAVE YOUR PREFERRED MATERIALS.
OR COMPOSITES THAT EMULATE TRADITIONAL CRAFT SYSTEM.
AND THEN DISCOURAGING PLASTIC OR VINYL.
IT DOESN'T SAY YOU CAN'T USE PLASTIC OR VINYL.
I THINK, I THINK WHAT YOU GOT THERE IS, IS GOOD.
I JUST DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S ANY OTHER WAY WE CAN SAY THAT.
IT'S LIKE CLASSIC VINYL IS DISCOURAGED.
QUANTITY LIMITING THE NUMBER OF SIGNS PER ESTABLISHMENT HELPS REDUCE VISUAL CLUTTER AND MAINTAINS THE LEGIBILITY OF EACH OTHER.
THOUGHT WINDOWS SIZE WILL BE EFFECTIVE, BUT SHOULD REMAIN SECONDARY AND PRIMARY BUILDING MOUNTED SCIENCE, EACH ESTABLISHMENT SHALL BE LIMITED TO NO MORE THAN TWO PERMANENT EXTERIOR SIGNS.
NOTHING THAT CONTRADICTS THAT IN THE CODE OR ARE WE STILL GOING ON? IT'S OUR SAYING ON THIS.
WE DO LIMIT THE NUMBER OF SIGNS, BUT I DON'T, YOU SAID IT SAID TWO.
WE TYPICALLY DON'T ONE HERE'S MY ONLY THOUGHT ABOUT THAT IS IF YOU AND I CAN'T THINK ON MAIN STREET, WE'RE NOT JUST IN MAIN STREET.
I KNOW THAT, BUT ON MAIN STREET WHERE THIS WOULD COME INTO PLAY, BUT LIKE THE BUILDING THAT I JUST MOVED INTO, IT WOULD BE VERY POSSIBLE FOR SOMEBODY ELSE TO BE IN THE BACK END.
AND THEN YOU'D HAVE A SIGN ON THE FRONT.
PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY BEEN SAYING WHEN THEY COME DOWN CHESTER STREET, THEY CAN'T FIND ME.
'CAUSE THERE'S NOT A SIGN ON THE OTHER SIDE.
AND THEN THERE COULD BE A WHOLE OTHER BUSINESS IN THE BACK THAT WOULD WANT A SIGN ON THE BACK SIDE OF IT.
AND IF THEY'RE ALL APPROPRIATE AND NOT SPLIT UP LIKE NEON.
I WAS GONNA SAY THE TWO TWO PERMIT SIZE PER SIDE.
SO LIKE DOWNTOWN, LOCAL FOR EXAMPLE, HAS, THEY HAVE A SIGN OVER UHHUH AND THEN THEY HAVE A WITNESS SIGN.
SO THEY HAVE SIX SIGNS OR FIVE SIGNS.
BUT SHOULD THEY NOT THOSE ARE THOSE PERMANENT? WELL AGAIN, THAT THOSE SIGNS ARE PERMANENT.
I DON'T REALLY THINK A SIGN ON A WINDOW OR DOOR IS PERMANENT.
'CAUSE YOU PULL THE DECAL, THOSE ARE FROM THE INSIDE.
RIGHT? THEY'RE NOT EXTERIOR ON, I DON'T KNOW HOW THE DECALS ARE PUT ON.
I THINK THIS IS, THE DECALS ARE NOT LIKE
IT'S A, A FIXED WALL SIGN IS NOT PERMANENT.
BUT IT'S MORE WHAT, MORE SO MORE PERMANENT THAN A STICKER ON THE WINDOW.
A BIG EXPENSIVE SIGN MOUNTED TO THE BUILDING IS WHAT WE'RE GONNA CALL SIGN SQUARE FEET MURAL.
IF IT ADVERTISED THE TYPE OF BUSINESS IT IS.
LIKE IF THERE WOULD BE FOOD ITEMS AND STUFF, THAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED SIGNAGE.
THOSE ARE TRICKY BECAUSE WITH ONE DE, WE'VE GOT TWO DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS OF MURALS, ARTISTIC EXPRESSION.
AND, BUT THERE'S HOLIDAY EXEMPTIONS TOO, SO MM-HMM
IT'S A, IT'S A DUMP, IT'S A QUANDARY.
I THINK THE ESTABLISHMENT SHOULD BE LIMITED TO ONE PERMANENT EXTERIOR SIGN PER FACADE.
BUT I THINK TEMPORARY WINDOW SIGNS ARE OUTSIDE OF THAT.
SO WHAT, BUT THEN AGAIN, YOU GOTTA BE WHAT'S FIVE YEARS
LIKE ALAN, HOW MANY SIGNS ARE ON YOUR BUILDING AT THE FRONT? IS THERE ONE ON THE DOOR? THERE'S NOTHING ON THE FRONT, RIGHT? THERE'S NOTHING.
THE ONLY SIGN ON THE BUILDING AT ALL IS THE ONE THAT'S ON THE SIDE.
THAT'S, I MEAN, I HAVE A DOOR CLEANED.
I JUST, I DIDN'T WANNA COVER UP.
YOU COULD SEE MY SIGN INSIDE FROM OUTSIDE AND IF I PUT THE DOOR CLEAN ON, RIGHT,
[01:15:02]
RIGHT.BUT THE LANDLORD WANTS TO PUT HIS OWN SIGN SOMEWHERE ELSE ON THE BUILDING.
AND THEN HE WANTS TO BE ABLE TO PUT A SIGN ON HIS PARKING LOT SIDE.
THAT'S LIKE A, THAT TELLS EVERYBODY THAT'S IN THE BUILDING.
SO, I MEAN, HE WOULD LIKE TO REALLY? YES.
THEY'D BE ALL ON DIFFERENT FACADES.
SO THAT'S SAYING WE'RE NOT LIMITING IT TO THE BUILDING THING.
EACH ESTABLISHMENT, BUT YOU COULD HAVE THREE DIFFERENT PLACES IN ONE BUILDING.
BECAUSE, 'CAUSE YOU'RE ONE BUILDING BEING ESTABLISHED.
SO THAT'S WE'RE, I'M GONNA CALL, WE'RE GONNA CALL PERMANENT SIGNS, WALL MOUNTED SIGN ON THE EXTERIOR OF THE FACADE OR, UH, OBJECTION.
A PROJECTING SIGN THAT'S MOUNTED TO THE BUILDING.
EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE NOT TECHNICALLY T THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GONNA, THAT'S THE FRAME OF REFERENCE.
SO, AND THEN IF YOU'RE DOING IT THAT WAY, RIGHT.
EVERY TENANT IN YOUR BUILDING CAN HAVE TWO SIGNS.
SO HOW MANY TENANTS ARE IN YOUR BUILDING? LET'S SAY FOUR.
RIGHT? SO THAT ON YOUR BILL, ON YOUR BUILDING DISTRICT, WHICH LOOKS A LITTLE, THAT COULD GET WAY OUTTA HAND, RIGHT? YEAH.
SO IS AN ESTABLISHMENT A BUSINESS? YES.
SO EACH, OBVIOUSLY EACH BUSINESS IN THE BUILDING WOULD WANT TO HAVE SOME KIND OF SIGN.
I THINK IF YOU HAVE A BUILDING WITH MULTIPLE ESTABLISHMENT, THAT SHOULD BE LIMITED IN ONE SIGN PER ESTABLISHED.
WELL, THEY PROBABLY NEED DIRECTORY SIGN AT THAT POINT.
THERE'S MULTIPLE, USUALLY YOU WANNA SEE THOSE AS GROUND MOUNTED, RIGHT? YEAH.
BUT LIKE YOUR BUILDING, THAT'D BE DIFFERENT.
OR ANY BUILDING ON MAIN STREET.
WELL, THAT'S THE MURPHY THEATER, IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT.
WHAT THEY'RE PLANNING TO DO THERE, THEY'RE GONNA HAVE THE WEWORK AND THE, THE, UM, THEATER.
SO THAT'S THREE BUSINESSES IN THAT SIGN.
AND IT'S RIGHT ON THE SIDEWALK.
SO THERE'S REALLY NOWHERE TO PUT A MELTED.
COULD DO A, YOU COULD DO A DIRECT OR A ON THE WALL.
THE DIRECTORY COULD BE A WALL.
YOU COULD DO IT ON THE SIDE OF THE ONE ON THE MIDDLE OF MAIN OR ON THE BACKSIDE CLOSE.
THE BACKSIDE OF THE MIDDLE OF MAIN HAS A DIRECTORY.
IF HE TOOK IT DOWN, IT WAS THERE.
BUT I ALSO THINK THERE'S SOMEWHERE IN THAT VICINITY.
THERE'S ANOTHER LITTLE PLACE THAT HAS A DIRECTORY FOR UPSTAIRS BUSINESSES.
THERE'S A DIRECTORY ON THE DOOR.
SO THIS ONE'S, THIS IS TRICKY.
AND THEN HOW MUCH, WHAT ARE WE GONNA RUN INTO WITH THE NEW CODE THING? WITH THIS ONE? OH, I, I THINK WE SHOULD WAIT ON THAT ONE.
'CAUSE IT'S THAT, THAT COULD GET WAY OUTTA HAND.
FOR QUANTITY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? YEAH.
UH, THE TEMPORARY WINDOW SIGN SHALL NOT COVER MORE THAN 25% OF THE WINDOW.
AND THEN OUR CODE, I KNOW ONE OF OUR, UM, THE TWEAKS TO SOME OF OUR DEFINITIONS ARE TO, UM, SPECIFY HOW THE AREA OF THAT SIGN IS CALCULATED.
BECAUSE SOME DEFINITION DON'T INCLUDE NEGATIVE SPACE.
AND THEN SOME, IT'S LIKE, LIKE A CIRCULAR, ODD SHAPED SIGN.
JUST PUT A SQUARE AROUND IT AND CALCULATE IT THAT WAY.
SO WE NEED TO BE VERY SPECIFIC ON HOW WE CALCULATE FIVE.
OH, IS IT ROUND? WELL, ANTHONY'S PIZZA AT ONE TIME COVERED THEIR WINDOWS WITH LIKE A YELLOW SIGN WITH LITTLE HOLES IN IT.
YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT? IT WAS VINYL.
AND THEN IT WAS, THEIR ATTORNEY ARGUED THAT IF YOU CALCULATE THE SPACE HOLES THAT WAS OF EACH HOLE, THERE WAS ONLY 25% OF THEIR SIGN COVERED.
BUT THAT'S, I'M TELLING YOU, THAT'S SPUR US TO MAKE SURE THAT IN OUR CODE, WE ARE VERY SPECIFIC ON HOW YOU CALCULATE SIGN AREA.
WE, THE SIGN SHALL REMAIN SECONDARY TO BUILDING MOUNTED
[01:20:01]
IDENTIFICATION.WE PART WITH THE 25% OF THE WINDOW.
IS THAT ONE WINDOW OR ALL AS A WHOLE OF THE WINDOWS? BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE FOUR WINDOWS, LIKE POINT QUEUE, DOES THAT MEAN IT'S 25% OF EACH OF THOSE WINDOWS? THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS RIGHT THERE.
BUT THE SIGN HAS TO BE ON THAT WINDOW.
BUT THE NEXT LINE SAYS, WITNESS SIGNS SHALL REMAIN SECONDARY TO BUILDING MOUNTED IDENTIFICATION.
SO WE COULD GET REAL SPECIFIC WITH THAT ONE.
LIKE YOU'VE GOT A PROJECTING SIGN OR A WALL MOUNTED SIGN OUT FRONT.
THE WINDOW SIGNS SHOULD NOT BE BIGGER AND MORE PROMINENT THAN THOSE SECONDARY IN SIZE.
SHOULD IT SAY SECONDARY IN SIZE? PROMINENCE? WE SHOULD, CAN WE HAVE THOSE WORDS? COLOR? YEAH.
AND WHAT ELSE DID YOU SAY? I THINK JUST LEAVE IT SIZE FOR NOW AND SIZE.
YOU MEAN SECONDARY AND SIZE?
'CAUSE WHEN WE CALCULATE SIGN COVERAGE, IT IS THE SIGN THAT'S ATTACHED TO THAT PANEL OF THE WINDOW.
WE HAVE THIS MANY SQUARE FOOT OF WINDOWS.
AND I CAN MAKE A SIGN THIS BIG THAT GOES ACROSS ALL OF THEM.
SO WE'VE HAD TO DENY SILENCE FOR THAT VERY REASON.
LIKE THE ONE WE DID IT HAVE A GRILL OR WHATEVER.
SO IF SAY AUNTIE WANTED TO DO A MURAL THAT COVERED ACROSS ALL THEIR WINDOWS, DO THEY HAVE TO COME FOR APPROVAL? THEY WOULD NEED A SPECIAL USE PERMIT BECAUSE THEIR WINDOWS ARE MORE THAN 60 SQUARE FEET.
I'M ASSUMING YOU DON'T COUNT OUR CHRISTMAS DECORATIONS.
NOW WHAT WE LEARNED IS HALLOWEEN IS NOT A HOLIDAY, BUT
YOU HAD TO GO THERE, DIDN'T YOU? WE'RE ALL INCLUSIVE.
WE CAME, BUT YEAH, WE'VE HAD, WE HAD THAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS IT? WE'VE HAD SO MANY COMPLAINTS.
HE WAS CALCULATING A SIGN FOR THE WHOLE SQUARE FOOTAGE AND WAS, WE'RE LIKE, NO, YOU CAN'T.
IT IS PER PANEL IS THE PERCENTAGE OF EACH PAINTING.
BUT WE'VE HAD PEOPLE THAT HAVE CALLED IN AND FILED COMPLAINTS AGAINST LIKE HOLIDAY DECORATIONS, MOSTLY LIKE HALLOWEEN DECORATIONS THAT WERE OFFENSIVE.
AND IT'S LIKE, WELL THAT'S NOT TECHNICALLY A HOLIDAY.
THE GIANT SKELETONS TO BE REMOVED TECHNICALLY A FINE, BUT THEN THEY START STICKING CHRISTMAS OR YOU KNOW, REAL HOLIDAY DECORATIONS ON 'EM AND THEN WE CAN OH.
IF YOU COVER IT IN CHRISTMAS LIGHTS YEAH, THERE IS, IT REALLY IS TECHNICALLY A SIGN.
BECAUSE I HAVE HAD SOME, THIS IS COMING UP TO OUR NEXT, I'M JUMPING AHEAD TO THE NEXT TYPE OF SIGN.
UM, AND I HATE TO EVEN SAY THIS, BUT I'VE HAD SOME CONVERSATION WITH SOME FOLKS ABOUT WHAT DOES CONSTITUTE A SIGN AND QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT WHEN YOU PUT A MURAL OVER ALL OF YOUR BUILDING, IS IT A SIGN OR IS IT PARKED? IT'S TECHNICALLY A SIGN.
THAT'S WHY WE DO THE SPECIAL USE PERMIT FOR MURALS.
WELL, IT'S A SIGN IF IT'S RELATED TO THE BUSINESS.
THAT'S WHERE THE CONVERSATION, SO I'M THINKING OF THE SALVATION ARMY BUILDING.
THEY GOT A SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
THEY GOT A PERMIT AND HAD TO GO.
BUT IS THE SIGN JUST THE RED SALVATION ARMY PART? NO.
YOU'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE MURAL.
NO, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE BEAR WHICH HAD THE VERY WHOLE YEAH.
THAT HAD TO GO TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION, COMMISS AND TOWN COUNCIL AND THE, THE FLOOR ON COMMERCE, THE FIRE DEPARTMENT.
THEY JUST HAD TO GO GET APPROVAL FROM PLANNING COMMISSION AND TOWN COUNCIL FROM THE FIRE DEPART.
AND THEN THE CHIMNEY GUY AROUND THE CORNER FROM YEP.
AND THERE WERE PEOPLE THAT THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S A SAFE, THAT COULD BE SAFETY ISSUE.
IT'S IN THE ENTRANCE CORRIDOR AND IT'S GONNA ATTRACT YOUR ATTENTION GOING AROUND THE YEAH, YOU'RE GONNA LOOK AT ROAD.
NOT NICE CURVE, BUT, SO YOU GUYS CONSIDER YOUR OWN SON? WE DO.
SO REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY, THEY ADVERTISE THE BUSINESS, THE BUSINESS NAME.
IT DOESN'T HAVE TO HAVE THE NAME IN IT.
SO EVEN THIS, UH, SO LIKE THE BUTTERFLY IN THE BUILDING OVER DOWN OF THE END OF MAIN STREET.
[01:25:01]
I DON'T EVEN DOWN ON THE SIDE OF THE BAR.WHERE YOU TAKE PICTURES THAT CAME HERE WHEN I WAS ON THE BAR, EDWIN.
BECAUSE THEY OWNED YEAH, THAT CAME TO THE BAR.
BUT DOES THAT CONSTITUTE A SIGN? I DON'T THINK IT DID.
BUT, BUT I MEAN, IT DOESN'T, IT HAVE, DOESN'T IT CO SIGN IF IT RELATES TO THE BUSINESS HERE? I'M JUST, I'M PULLING UP THE DEFINITION OF SIGN SO THAT WE CAN HEAR WHY WE HAVE TO DO THIS.
SIGN ANY, OKAY, SO THIS IS A 1 75 3.
ANY DISPLAY OF LETTERS, WORDS, NUMERAL FIGURES, DEVICES, EMBLEMS, PICTURES OR ANY PARTS OR A COMBINATION THEREOF BY ANY MEANS WHEREBY THE SAME ARE MADE VISIBLE FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING ANYTHING KNOWN WHETHER SUCH DISPLAY BE MADE ON, ATTACHED TO, OR PART OF A STRUCTURE SURFACE OR ANY, IT'S A VERY GENERAL, NO.
IS THERE A DEFINITION FOR MURAL? UM, SEASIDE.
IF IT HAS HIKERS, THERE IS A CAVEAT THAT IF ITS TOO CLOSE TO WHAT THE BUSINESS IS, THEN IT IS ADVERTISING.
WE DON'T HAVE THE DEFINITION FOR MURAL IN THIS PORTION ORDINANCE.
SO I THINK SOMEWHERE THERE SHOULD BE SOME KIND OF CONSIDERATION.
I NEED TO TYPE THE SIGN MURAL.
WHAT'S THE DEFINITION OF A MONUMENT SIGN? TWO 13 BRICK SIGN.
LIKE A, OH, LIKE A PIECE OF A WALL? YEAH.
A GIANT TOMBSTONE, BUT IT'S FINE.
YOUR SPACE ALLOWS, OKAY, SO WHAT'S THE SPACE ALLOWANCE? LITTLE MONUMENT SIGN? YEAH.
THE MONUMENT SIGN IS A SIGN OF FIXED TO AND MADE AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE STRUCTURE BUILT ON GRAVE THAT DOES NOT INVOLVE THE USE OF POLES AS ITS MAJOR SIGN SUPPORT AND IS LESS THAN EIGHT FEET IN HEIGHT.
UM, MIGHT HAVE BEEN, SIGN TO ME IS LIKE OUT IN FRONT OF AN OLD BRICK BAPTIST STREET.
WE ALL TYPICALLY HAVE, I LIKE THE DESCRIPTION OF GREENSTONE TWO PILLAR BRICK COLUMNS WITH A LOADED SIGN.
THEY CAN CHANGE THE LETTERS, RIGHT? YES.
THAT'S A MIGHT HAVE BEEN SIGN.
THAT, THAT IS IN THE DEFINITION.
DOES IT, I MEAN, THAT IS THE DEFINITION, RIGHT? DOES IT SAY HOW BIG THE SPACE HAS TO BE BEFORE YOU'RE ALLOWED TO HAVE A MONUMENT SIGN? IT DOES HAVE TO MEET SETBACKS.
YOU GOTTA HAVE ENOUGH FRONTAGE.
I KNOW SETBACK MONUMENT SIGNS IS FIVE FEET FROM ANY PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY.
AND, OKAY, SO THIS IS A PERFECT, WHERE IT SAYS MONUMENT SIGNS MAY BE USED WHERE SPACE ALLOWS, AND THE ALLOWANCE IS IN THE CODE PER, WE COULD, WE COULD INCLUDE IN PARENT PER CAM CODE, YADA, YADA, YADA, WHERE SPACE IS ALLOWED PER CONNIE, WE WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A, IN ADDITION TO THAT TYPE IN TYPES OF SIGNS.
YEAH, MY, MY NUMBERS ARE DIFFERENT NOW, SO, OKAY.
ARE YOU IN TYPE OF SIGNS OF THE PARAGRAPH TYPE OF YES.
AND WHERE, WHERE ARE WE? IT'S THE THIRD LINE IN THAT PARAGRAPH.
IS WHERE SPACE ALLOWS, WE WANNA REFERENCE THE TOWN CODE AND PARENTHESES THERE PER TOWN CODE, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, PER TOWN CODE.
AND THEN THE SENTENCE ABOVE THAT, SHALL WE TAKE OUT BLADE SIGNS? PROJECTING DOWN? YEAH.
JUST THE WORD BLADE, RIGHT? YEP.
SO WE DEFINE ARTISTIC MURAL IN THE SIGN ORDINANCE, BUT NOT IN OUR DEFINITION SECTION OF OUR ORDINANCE.
AND THAT'S A WORK OF ART APPLIED TO AND MADE INTEGRAL WITH A BUILDING WALL THAT IS PREPARED BY A SKILLED ARTIST AND SHOWS IMAGINATIVE SKILL AND ARRANGEMENT AND EXECUTION.
AND THEN WHEN YOU GO TO, UM, SIGN ANY DEVICE EMPLOYING LETTERS, WORDS, SYMBOLS, ET CETERA, UM, USED OR INTENDED TO ATTRACT THE ATTENTION.
SO IT IT'S INCLUSIVE OF THE MURALS.
THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE TO, THAT'S WHY THEY'RE PART OF THIS.
IS THAT, SO IN THAT PARAGRAPH, STARTING ON TWO 11 FOR US, TRADITIONAL SIGN TYPES SUCH AS WALL-MOUNTED PROJECTING AND HAND PAINTED DESIGNS.
DOES HAND PAINTED DESIGNS MEAN MURALS? IS THAT WHAT THAT MEANS? I FEEL LIKE THOSE, THE BUTTERFLIES,
[01:30:04]
BECAUSE A, A PROJECTING SIGN COULD BE HAND PAINTED.SHOULD WE, SHOULD WE, I DON'T THINK IT MEANS MURALS.
IT'S JUST A HAND PAINTED SIGN.
YOU KNOW, HAND PAINTED DESIGNS TRADITIONAL, BUT HAND PAINTED IS NOT A TYPE.
YOU KNOW THOSE GUYS, THE LETTERING GUYS THAT WOULD COME AROUND AND PAINT YOUR GLASS FOR YOU.
SO THAT'S A MURAL IF IT'S ON THE GLASS.
NO'S DESIGNED TO ATTRACT ATTENTION IN MY, THAT'S WHY WE NEED A, WE NEED A DEFINITION FOR A DAMN MURAL.
THE MURAL, A WALL MURAL IN MY MIND IS LIKE WHAT WE SEE DOWN ON MAIN STREET.
WE GOT THE SIDE OF A WHOLE FACADE.
AND IT DOESN'T, NONE OF THEM REFERENCE A BUSINESS.
YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T HAVE, YOU KNOW, MIKE'S GARAGE THAT'S 40 FEET WIDE.
IT'S SO IT'S NOT A SIGN, IT'S AN ART PIECE.
IT DOESN'T REFERENCE ANY KIND OF A BUSINESS.
IT'S JUST A NICE AESTHETIC THING TO HAVE DOWNTOWN.
I THINK WE SHOULD REFERENCE IT IN HERE SAYING IF YOU ARE GONNA DO A WALL MURAL, WHICH WE HAVE, WE DON'T, WE SHOULD HAVE A SEPARATE SECTION FOR, AND IT HAS AN ADVERTISEMENT FOR YOUR BUSINESS THAT IS CONSIDERED A SIGN.
AND IT HAS TO MEET THE SIGN REQUIREMENTS.
WHICH BRING THE MURAL SIZE WAY DOWN 60 SQUARE FEET.
OR THEY CAN APPLY FOR A SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
THE MURALS ARE TOTALLY SEPARATE.
SO HAND PAINTED DESIGNS DOES NOT MEAN MURAL.
HOW IS HAND PAINTED A TIGHT? DID IT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER IF WE TOOK DESIGN OUT AND WE SAID HAND PAINTED SIGNS? YEAH, I THINK THAT'S, IT SHOULD JUST SAY HAND PAINTED SIGNS.
I MEAN, YOU CAN DRIVE DOWN LOTS OF OLD DOWNTOWNS AND ON YOU SEE FADED SIGNAGE ON THE SIDE OF THE BUILDING.
INSTEAD OF HANGING A SIGN UP, THEY PAINTED IT ON THE SIDE OF THE BUILDING.
ARE WE TAKING OUT DESIGN? SO CAN WE JUST SAY SIGNS? YEP.
THANK YOU FOR THAT DESCRIPTION.
I DON'T KNOW IF THERE ARE MANY OF THEM HERE, BUT THERE ARE IN MY HOMETOWN, OLD, OLD ONES.
BUT THERE'S SOME B ONES AROUND HERE.
YEAH, THEY'RE REALLY ARE SO COOL.
STANDARD ALL MOUNT OR PROTECTION SIGNS ARE GENERALLY APPROPRIATE.
SO THAT'S A, I DON'T EVEN, WHY I HAVE TO SAY THAT THERE.
UM, FREESTANDING MONUMENT SIGNS MAY BE FER PERMITTED ONLY WHERE SUBSTANTIAL YARD AREA EXISTS PER TOWN CODE, YADA YADA.
PYLON OR POLE SIGNS AND INTERIOR ATED PLASTIC BOX SIGNS ARE PROHIBITED.
SAME LAST WOOD SIGNS, HAND PAINTED WALL SIGNS AND ARTISTIC BLADE SIGNS ARE ENCOURAGED WHERE APPROPRIATE.
SO WE CHANGE BLADE THERE TO PROJECTING.
SO, AND I LOVE THIS WHERE IT SAYS HAND PAINTED WALL SIDE.
CAN WE USE THAT TERM UP IN THE PARAGRAPH ABOVE? YEAH.
HAND PAINTED FOR DENSE PEOPLE LIKE ME.
WHAT IF IT'S ON A WINDOW? YEAH.
OH, WELL THEN MAYBE WE SHOULD TAKE WALL OUT OF THE FOURTH BULLET.
SO SANDBLASTED WOODEN SIGNS, HAND PAINTED SIGNS AND ARTISTIC PROJECTING SIGNS.
SO A HAND PAINTED SIGN THEORETICALLY COULD GO ON A WALL OR A WINDOW.
AND THEY'RE CONSIDERED PERMANENT.
ARE THEY? DO I MEAN
NO MORE PERMANENT THAN A WALL SIGN.
I GUESS IT, IT, YOU CAN ALWAYS CHANGE 'EM OUT.
DEAN, DO YOU HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO GET THROUGH THIS LAST LITTLE SECTION? WE'RE ALMOST DONE.
UM, YEAH, LET'S, LET'S RAMBLE.
WHILE THE BAR DOES NOT REGULATE THE CONTENT OF MESSAGES, SIGNS THAT CONTAIN OBSCENE, OFFENSIVE, OR MISLEADING MATERIAL UNDERMINE THE INTEGRITY OF THE HISTORIC DISTRICT.
AT THE SAME TIME, CREATIVE SIGN MESSAGES CAN ENLIVEN THE STREETSCAPE AND REFLECT THE INDIVIDUALITY OF BUSINESSES.
SO DOES THE TOWN CODE, UM, COVER OBSCENE, OFFENSIVE?
[01:35:01]
WE, AS FAR AS CONTENT GOES? YEAH.UM, WE DO TO AN EXTENT, BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WITH, UM, INTERPRETATION OF OFFENSIVE AND REG ANY REGULATION FREE SPEECH.
SO WE TRY CAREFULLY LIKE POLITICS.
SO LIKE SOMEBODY, LIKE WE GET A COMPLAINT ALL THE TIME ABOUT THEIR NEIGHBORS POLITICAL SIGN.
BUT I GUESS THEY, THERE'S NO YEAR ON IT.
THEY CAN PUT UP AS MANY OF THOSE SIGNS AS THEY WANT TO.
WELL THAT, THAT'S THE SAME WITH THE RELIGION OR, YEAH.
THE NEIGHBOR THAT HAS HIS TRUMP BANNER UP MAKING THE COMPLAINT ABOUT THE NEIGHBOR THAT HAS THE ONE WITH ANYTHING ELSE.
WHAT, WHAT IS IT THAT DOWN THERE ON FIRST STREET? IS IT JESUS OR, OR AT THE HOUSE ON THE PORCH? YES.
OH, YOU MEAN THE ONE I CAN SEE FROM MY LIVING ROOM? HE STEPS.
NO, I'LL TAKE THAT UNLESS YOU
SO IS THIS TOO MUCH OF A CAN OF WORMS TO INCLUDE OR YEAH, I WOULD TAKE THIS OUT.
WHAT THAT WHOLE SENTENCE I WOULD SAY.
HOW ABOUT JUST OBSCENE CAN STAY, 'CAUSE THAT'S OBVIOUS WHAT OBSCENE IS.
WE DON'T WANT OBSCENE MIKE'S RAPE CHECK
WE LIKE, WE'VE PERMITTED SOMEBODY THAT HAD A CERTAIN, UH, LIKE A MARIJUANA LEAF, BUT IT WAS JUST THE LEAF.
THAT WAS SYMBOLOGY THAT WAS PERMITTED.
WE'VE GOTTEN CALLS ABOUT SOME OF THE CHOICE LANGUAGE ON THE FLAGS THAT ANDRICK.
WE DON'T, YEAH, WE DON'T WANT THAT.
BUT AGAIN, BUT AGAIN, LIKE ON CUE, THEY HAVE THE CHRISTMAS STUFF DRAWN ON THERE.
BUT THEN THERE'S PE BUT THEN PEOPLE GET OFFENDED BECAUSE OF THE HOW IF THERE'S A HALLOWEEN DRAWING.
SO IT'S, AGAIN, IT'S YOUR OPINION.
LIKE IF YOU START DRAWING DEMONS, PEOPLE GET VERY OFFENDED.
WHAT MAYBE IT'S FINE JUST THE WAY IT IS.
THIS SECTION IS GONNA COME DOWN TO US DURING A REVIEW OF THE SIGN.
I THINK WE CAN SAY WHATEVER WE WANT HERE.
IT'S GONNA BE UP TO THE PEOPLE THAT ARE ON THE BAR TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT IT'S APPROPRIATE, RIGHT? MM-HMM
I'M OKAY WITH IT BECAUSE THEN THE NEXT ONE, CERTIFICATE OF APPROPRIATENESS, THAT KIND OF COVERS IT.
I THINK UNDER CERTIFICATE OF APPROPRIATENESS.
MY ONLY THING IS THAT, CAN WE JUST TAKE OUT THE WORD PERMANENT? ALL EXTERIOR SIGNS.
ALL EXTERIOR SIGNS REQUIRE APPROVAL FOR THE CERTIFICATE OF APPROPRIATENESS PROCESS.
WHICH IS, WHICH WOULD INCLUDE, THAT'S A TRUE STATEMENT.
JUST PICK OUT PERMIT AND THEN THE ON 2 37 UNDERSTAND THE SAME THING.
AND I THINK THE REST OF IT IS FINE.
WE GOT THE CORN IN THERE, GOT PERMIT IT.
EVERYBODY UNDER CERTIFICATE OF TOMORROW AT FOUR O'CLOCK SAMUELS CALLED LIBRARY, GET HER PERMIT THERE.
A PUBLIC INFORMATION SESSION ABOUT SOUTH STREET AND TRANSPORTATION IMPROVEMENT SOUTH STREET.
SO NOT NECESSARILY ALL SOUTH STREET PROVIDE INPUT ON SOUTH STREET.
YEAH, IT'S TOMORROW, RIGHT? THERE'S NOT A STREET PROBLEM.
THERE'S A PEOPLE PROBLEM HERE.
I MEAN, AND THAT'S JUST AS PLAIN AS DAY.
AND HERE'S THE CROSSWALK WITH THE CLASHING LIGHT RIGHT HERE.
BUT HERE'S THE MAN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET.
I'M LIKE, DUDE, THIS IS NOT A STREET PROBLEM.
I MEAN, YOU'RE NOT CROSSING AT A CROSSWALK.
ANYBODY WANNA MAKE A MOTION HERE? I'LL MAKE A MOTION.
UM, WHO WAS THE SECOND, I'M SORRY.
PUBLIC LIBRARY AT 4:00 PM TOMORROW WE GOT HOSTING IT.