* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. THAT THE FIRST [00:00:01] MEETING? YES. YEAH, WE NEED, OKAY, [Planning and Zoning Work Session on November 5, 2025.] I'LL CALL TO ORDER THE WORK. NO, THE MEETING OF THE WORK SESSION OF THE PLANNING COMMISSION OF THE DEMOCRAT ROYAL ON THE DATE OF NOVEMBER 5TH. WE, MS. POTTER, PLEASE CALL THE ROLE CHAIRMAN MARNER. I AM HERE. VICE CHAIRMAN NEIL. HERE. COMMISSIONER FEDERA. HERE. COMMISSIONER BROOKS IS OUT. UH, COMMISSIONER MARZO. YEP. WE HAVE A QUORUM. OKAY. AND OUR FIRST ITEM OF BUSINESS IS 2 5 0 0 4 8 1 SPECIAL USE PERMIT APPLICATION FROM YOURSELF. WHAT, MR. WARE? YEP. WE'VE GOT A LITTLE SHORT PRESENTATION. UH, I'M NOT SURE HOW MANY'S BEEN. WE'VE HAD APPLICATION FOR MURALS BEFORE. I'M NOT SURE WHO'S ALL SET ON THE PLANNING COMMISSION WHEN WE'VE DONE THESE. SO WE'VE GOT AN APPLICATION, UH, FOR AN ARTISTIC MURAL. UM, THAT'S A SPECIAL USE PERMIT, UH, BASED ON THE SIZE OF IT. UH, SO IT EXCEEDS 60 SQUARE FEET IN SIZE. SO THAT REQUIRES AN SUP IN, UH, OFF 2 0 2 EAST SECOND STREET. UH, IT'S IN THE C TWO DOWNTOWN BUSINESS DISTRICT. YOU'LL BE FAMILIAR WITH THIS PROPERTY. THIS IS THE FLOORS THERE ON THE CORNER, UH, THERE AT NORTH COMMERCE AND SECOND STREET. UH, SO PER TOWN CODE, UH, THE DEFINITION OF A SIGN, THAT'S OUR CURRENT ORDINANCE. THAT'S ANYTHING, ANY DEVICE EMPLOYING LETTERS, WORDS, OR SYMBOLS USED OR INTENDED TO ATTRACT THE ATTENTION OF THE PUBLIC FROM THE STREET SIDEWALKS OR OTHER PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAYS. AND FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE ARTICLE, THIS TERM SIGN SHALL INCLUDE ALL STRUCTURAL MEMBERS. SO BY THAT DEFINITION, THE MURAL IS A SIGN. SO WE'LL GO BACK TO DEFINITIONS ON A WALL SIGN, 1 7 5 1 0 6 8 4. THAT'S A SIGN ATTACHED TO A WALL OR PAINTED ON A, ON OR AGAINST A FLAT VERTICAL SURFACE, WHICH DISPLAYS ONLY ONE ADVERTISING SURFACE. SO, UH, BY DEFINITION, UH, WE HAVE A DEFINITION OF A SIGN AND A DEFINITION OF A WALL SIGN. SO ANY MURAL IS A SIGN PER THE DEFINITION. IT IS USED OR INTENDED TO TRACK THE ATTENTION OF THE PUBLIC. THEREFORE, A WALL SIGN PERMIT IS REQUIRED AND A MAXIMUM SIZE IS DETERMINED BY THE LENGTH OF THE BUILDING. SO THE CODE STATES ONE SQUARE FOOT OF SIGN PER ONE LINEAR FOOT OF THE BUILDING UP TO 60 SQUARE FEET. THAT'S THE MAXIMUM SIZE OF THE SIGN, BUT IT'S ALL RATIO IN PROPORTION. UH, WITH THAT. SO EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, IF YOU ONLY HAD A 30 FOOT WIDE BUILDING, YOU COULD ONLY HAVE A 30 SQUARE FOOT SIGN. BIGGER BUILDINGS, NO MATTER WHAT THE MAXIMUM SIZE IS 60. CAN YOU JUST REMIND ME REALLY QUICKLY, UM, ARE ALL SIGNS ON A SPECIAL USE PERMIT? NO, NOT, NOT ALL SIGNS, NO. OKAY. I JUST GOT THAT CONFUSED. OKAY. JUST THIS ONE, BECAUSE THIS WAS, BECAUSE IT EXCEEDS THAT. WE, WE HAVE THAT, SO UNDER COUNT CODE FOR A WALL SIGN. SO WE'RE LABELING A MURAL, A WALL SIGN, IT'S ATTACHED TO THE WALL. SO BY THAT CODE, A WALL OR MARQUES SIGN, ONE SQUARE FOOT PER LINEAR FOR THE BUILDING ON THE WIDTH, WHICH IT, THE SIGN IS ATTACHED UP TO MAXIMUM OF 60. THEN IN THIS CODE, ARTISTIC MURALS CONTAINING BUSINESS OR PRODUCT ADVERTISING MAY BE APPROVED FOR SIZE EXCEEDING 60 SQUARE FEET BY A SPECIAL PERMIT. SO THOSE MURALS, ALL OTHER SIGNS HAVE TO BE UNDER 60, BUT MURALS CAN BE APPROVED FOR GREATER THAN 60 WITH A SPECIAL USE PERMIT BY TOWN CODE. UH, SO THERE IS THE EXISTING MURAL ON, UM, 2 0 2 EAST SECOND STREET. UM, SO THESE ARE PLANTERS HERE. THEY HAVE, AND THEY HAVE THREE, UH, MURALS OF FLOWERS FOR A FLOWER SHOP. SO OUR INTERPRETATION, YOU KNOW, THEIR ADVERTISING FLOWER SHOP WITH FLOWERS OR ADVERTISING, UH, TO, TO ATTRACT ATTENTION OF THE PUBLIC. NOW, WHAT THEY'RE PROPOSING, THESE ARE THE PLANTERS, AGAIN, THEY'RE PROPOSING TO, UH, DO EIGHT FOOT HEIGHT OF THE WALL BY THE WHOLE LENGTH OF THE BUILDING, 55, UH, FEET, SO THAT IT'S BIGGER THAN LY 60 SQUARE FEET. SO THAT'S THEIR RENDERING OF WHAT THEY'D LIKE TO HAVE FOR THE MURAL ON THAT SIDE OF THE BUILDING. IT WOULD FILL UP THE WHOLE WALL. IT WOULD FILL UP THE WHOLE WALL. THEY'RE BASICALLY, IF YOU WANNA REFER TO THOSE AS THREE PANELS, UH, THERE, NOW THEY WANNA DO THIS WHERE THE WHOLE BUILDING, THE WHOLE SIDE, 55 FOOT OF THE BUILDING, UH, IS FLOWERS. THEY'RE GONNA REPAINT THE WHOLE [00:05:01] BUILDING. WHAT MM-HMM . AND PUT THAT, UH, LITTLE RENDERING ON THERE. UH, THERE'S A LOT OF THE BUILDING THERE THAT'S ON THAT CORNER. UM, BASICALLY THAT'S IT. UH, THEY WANNA INCREASE THE SIZE GREATER THAN WHAT THE CODE ALLOWS, WHICH REQUIRES A SPECIAL USE PERMIT FOR A MURAL. BUT THEY'VE GOT THE ARTIST TO DO THAT. YES. DO YOU THINK IT IS THIS, UH, LIKE DO YOU THINK THIS IS WHAT IT'S GONNA LOOK LIKE? THAT'S THEIR YEAH. THEIR CONCEPT. YEAH. SOMETHING VERY SIMILAR. IF YOU, UH, DRIVEN BY THE, SORRY. I WAS JUST GONNA SAY, I THINK THAT'S PART OF THE TASK IS TO MAKE SURE IT'S LOCKED IN. YEAH. WHAT IT WILL LOOK LIKE. YEAH. SO YEAH. WHEN THE SALVATION ARMY CAME AND ASKED FOR PERMISSION TO DO THEIR MURAL, THEY SHOWED US A MOCKUP. AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY PUT ON THE WALL. YEAH. VERY, VERY CLOSE. YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT. WE DID THE SALVATION ARMY AND THE, UH, VIRGINIA BLUEBELLS AND RIGHT. UH, FIRST RESPONSE CHIMNEY WAS THE, UH, ONE OF THE FIRST ONES FIRST RESPONSE, REALLY REPLACING A MURAL WITH A MURAL, JUST FILLING IN THE TWO PLANKS AND THE RIGHT. THIS IS REALLY LOVELY THAT I THINK IT'S MUCH NICER THAN ONE. THEY HAVE, YOU KNOW, SPECIAL USE PERMITS. YOU HAVE TO DETERMINE IF THE USE IS, IF IT'S APPROPRIATE, UM, THEN , UH, BUT YOU KNOW, ADMINISTRATIVELY IT'S OVER TO SIZE, SO WE CAN'T APPROVE IT. UH, TOWN STAFF CAN'T. AND THE CODE OF REQUIRES A SPECIAL USE PERMIT. UM, AND IT'S TREATED AS A SIGN. IT DRAWS THE ATTENTION OF THE PUBLIC. MM-HMM . SO THE APPLICANT I, I'M ASSUMING, WILL BE THERE AT THE PUBLIC HEARING. UH, WE TOLD 'EM THEY SHOULD HAVE, YOU KNOW, THEY WANT TO DIVULGE MORE INFORMATION. HAVE THEY IDENTIFIED AN ARTIST TO DO THIS? I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING THAT. UH, I DID NOT SEE THAT ON THE APPLICATION. NO. I DON'T THINK YOU SAW IT ON THE SALVATION ARMY APPLICATION EITHER. THEY HIRED ME TO DO IT. IT'S NOT GONNA LOOK LIKE THAT . NO, THEY'RE GONNA WANT IT TO LOOK LIKE THAT. I MEAN, I'M SURE THIS IS WHOEVER THEY HAD IN MIND TO DO IT. THIS IS THEIR RENDERING AND ALL PROBABILITY. BUT YEAH, MAYBE EACH ONE OF THE EMPLOYEES IS GOOD ENOUGH TO DO THAT. I MEAN, BUT YEAH. WELL, SO LIKE ANY SPECIAL USE PERMITS, YOU COULD PLACE CONDITIONS ON IT. I MEAN, WITH ANY SPECIAL USE PERMIT FURNISH THAT, THAT THE, I'M ASSUMING THE RENDERING, YOU KNOW, THE, THE MURAL HAS TO REPRESENT WHAT THEY PRODUCE AS THE EXHIBIT. IT FEELS WEIRD TO SAY TO, TO FACTOR IN SOMETHING AS SUBJECTIVE AS, I THINK THIS IS PRETTY, SO, OKAY, , WELL, A LITTLE BIT WEIRD. WE DON'T HAVE TO LOOK AT IT THAT WAY. UM, IT'S A FLORIST AND THEY'RE PUTTING FLOWERS ON AND IT'S NOT OBJECTIONABLE COMMON SENSE OR COMMON AESTHETIC. RIGHT. YEAH. I MEAN, IF, IF, IF THESE WERE IN VARIOUS STATES OF DECAY AND IT WAS SHOWING SOMETHING BAD, THAT WOULD NOT BE GOOD TO HAVE AS SOMETHING TO ATTRACT ATTENTION. MM-HMM . THEN THAT, THAT THERE, THERE ARE WAYS TO LOOK AT IT IN A, IN AN OBJECTIVE LENS. UNDERSTAND THERE IS AN ASPECT OF SUBJECTIVITY, BUT IT FITS THE USE MM-HMM . UM, AND IT DOES AESTHETICALLY PLEASING SO, AND OBJECTIONABLE, AND IT'S NOT OBSCENE. IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT'S GOOD DISTRACT DRIVERS TO THE POINT THEY'RE GONNA RUN OFF THE ROAD. MM-HMM . AND I THINK IT'S AN IMPROVEMENT ON WHAT THEY HAVE NOW. NO, NO. SO JUST A REMINDER, IT'S, YOU'RE, YOU'RE NOT HERE TO REACH A CONSENSUS. RIGHT. IT'S SUBJECT TO PUBLIC HEARING. WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT THINGS TO CONSIDER. YEAH. OKAY. THANKS. NO QUESTIONS. MORE QUESTIONS FOR JOHN. IS THERE ANYTHING THAT WE WOULD WANT TO, ANY KIND OF CONDITIONS WE'D WANNA APPLY TO THIS? I MEAN, WELL, I MEAN, JUST THAT THE, I MEAN, WE MIGHT WANNA APPLY THAT. THE, UH, CONDITION WOULD BE THAT THE FINAL PRODUCT, WELL, I MEAN THAT, THAT GOES IN WITH THE SPECIALIST. 'CAUSE ULTIMATELY YOU END UP INSPECTING IT WHEN IT'S FINISHED. RIGHT. YOU CAN SEE IT DRIVING BY. YEAH. YEAH. WE, WE WOULD ONLY DO SOMETHING IF IT GETS TO THE POINT WHERE IT'S THE, UH, MURAL'S DETERIORATING AND THEY DON'T KEEP IT UP AND STUFF LIKE THAT. NO, I MEAN, AFTER IT'S COMPLETED AND WHEN IT'S REPAINTED, DOES ANYONE INSPECT TO SEE THAT IT MET THE CONSISTENCY? YEAH, WE WOULD PROBABLY DO A, A DRIVE BY. I MEAN, I MEAN, OH, I, I KNOW YOU'RE GONNA GO FOR THAT. I DON'T KNOW. [00:10:01] SHADE QUITE, IT'S THAT VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT THEY, WHAT THEY'RE PROPOSING. YEAH. YEAH. REALISTICALLY, ALL OF US ARE GONNA SEE IT TOO. YEAH. YEAH. SO , I SUPPOSE WE COULD PUT A CONDITION THAT WE WANT IT TO SOMEHOW BE, UH, COATED WITH SOMETHING THAT WOULD MAKE IT PERMANENT SO IT WOULDN'T DECAY AFTER TWO YEARS OR SOMETHING. I WOULD LEAVE THAT TO THE BUSINESS PERSONALLY. I MEAN, THEY'RE GONNA WANT THIS TO LAST. THEY HAVE AN INTEREST. MURALS LIKE THAT ARE NOT CHEAP TO PUT IN. SO, YEAH. I, AND THEY'RE ALREADY IMPROVING THE ABILITY FROM THE EXISTING MURALS THAT THEY'RE FADING NOW, SO THEY'RE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. SO, YEAH. SO WE CAN TRUST THE, THE BUSINESS ON THIS, ON THIS POINT. OKAY. OKAY. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. I WANT THE FUN ONE. THAT WAS GOOD JOB ON THE PRESENTATION, JOHN. NOW THE PRESENTATION FOR THE PUBLIC HEARING. DO YOU WANT BASICALLY THE SAME THING I SHOWED THIS EVENING SO THE PUBLIC UNDERSTANDS THAT, YOU KNOW, THE MURAL IS ASSIGNED. IT IS A WALL SIGNED BY OUR CODE. YEAH. I WANT, IT'S JUST A SHORT YEAH, I COULD DO THE SAME THING. OKAY. JUST IT'S NOT LENGTHY AND IT'S PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD. OKAY. R TWO. ALRIGHT. UH, WE DID GET, UH, AN ANSWER. DO YOU HAVE THAT EMAIL? MM-HMM . DURING THE, UH, PREVIOUS ONE ON THE, UH, URBAN AG? THERE'S A QUESTION BROUGHT UP ABOUT, UH, THE BEES, UM, HARVESTING THE HONEY. SO WE REACHED OUT TO THE, UH, EXTENSION AGRICULTURE DEPARTMENT EXTENSION AGENT FOR OUR AREA, UH, THROUGH VIRGINIA TECH. AND THEY DID GIVE US AN ANSWER ON THE BEES. CONNIE, DO YOU WANNA READ THAT? MM-HMM . JUST THE PART ON THE BEES EXTRACTING. CONNIE IS BEST DONE INDOORS WITH AN ENCLOSED BUILDING. YOU DON'T WANT THE BEES TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE HONEY WHILE YOU'RE WORKING WITH IT. THE BEES FROM YOUR HIVE AND EVEN OTHER HIVES IN THE AREA, INCLUDING YELLOW JACKETS, WILL SWARM ON THE HONEY. YOU CAN HAVE THOUSANDS OF BEES THAT WILL COME AND COVER EVERYTHING. MOST BEEKEEPERS PROCESS THEIR HONEY INDOORS ANYWAYS. BUT I SUPPOSE IT'S IN THE CODE TO KEEP DOWN ON NUISANCE ISSUES WITH ME SWARMING SOMEONE'S BACKYARD. OKAY. TECHNICAL QUESTION THEN. UM, MY, SO HIVE IS OUTSIDE, THEY'RE PULLING OUT ONE OF THE, UH, THE BOXES FROM IT. IS THE PROCESSING OF THE HONEY SAYING I'M GONNA PULL THIS OUT AND THEN WALK INSIDE WITH IT? OR IS IT SAYING THE WHOLE HIVE IS COMING INSIDE? 'CAUSE THAT WAS WHAT IT SOUNDED LIKE WHEN I WAS, OR WHEN I WAS FIRST READING IT BEFORE. I THINK IT'S THE, THOSE SQUARE THAT YOU PULL OUT THE PANELS. YES. OKAY. OH, OKAY. SO YOU TAKE THE PANEL AND THEN YOU YEAH. YOU'RE NOT TAKING THE BOX IN THE HOUSE. THAT'S WHAT IT SEEMS LIKE EVENTUALLY. LIKE WHAT ARE WE DOING? GOT IT. OKAY. YEAH. OKAY. ALRIGHT. SO THERE'S A QUESTION YOU THOUGHT MAYBE TO, UH, STRIKE THAT OUT OF THE CURRENT CODE. RIGHT? UH, THERE'S A REASON THAT WAS PUT IN THERE. NO, I APPRECIATE THAT. YEAH. SO THAT WAS FROM A PREVIOUS ISSUE YOU TALKED ABOUT. I REMEMBER THAT, UH, ON THE URBAN AG, DID WE HAVE ANOTHER URBAN AG ISSUE TOO? THAT IS, UM, NOT AT THIS POINT. MM-HMM . WE, WE GOT SOME WORK TO DO ON THAT. UH, THE BODY AS WELL. SOME OTHER ISSUES, BUT NOT ON TOP OF THAT A LITTLE BIT LATER. OKAY. CAN I ASK A PRACTICAL QUESTION? SO FROM OUR MEETINGS, HOW QUICKLY ARE THOSE CHANGES INCORPORATED INTO A DOCUMENT? LIKE, I'M WONDERING IS IT WORTH GETTING WHAT WE REVIEWED? SO WHEN LOOKING AT ALL OF THIS, SOME OF THE THINGS I'M LOOKING AT IS COMPARISON AND SAYING, WELL, WHAT DO WE SAY IN DIFFERENT, LIKE IN A RESIDENTIAL ZONE, IS THIS CONSISTENT? IS THIS DIFFERENT? BUT I KNOW WE'RE MAKING CHANGES AS WE GO ALONG. YEAH. I DON'T BELIEVE THERE'S A DOCUMENT WITH THOSE CHANGES IN IT. OKAY. I COULD BE WRONG. OKAY. I'VE NOT MADE THOSE. I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE WHAT LAUREN HAS. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THANKS. OKAY. HOW SHALL WE PROCEED? I THINK NEIL, MR. NEIL HAS DONE SOME WORK ON THIS ALREADY. OKAY. I DON'T KNOW IF WE'RE IN THE MEETING. I SENT, I'VE DONE A MARKUP ON THIS. RIGHT. AND DO YOU WANT TO USE THAT MARKUP TO GO TO, OR DO YOU WANT TO DO THIS FROM THE RAW DOCUMENT AND, AND BUT THOSE CHANGES ARE TRACKED IN YOUR DOCUMENT. YES. LIKE THE RAW, IT'S CLEAR WHAT CHANGES YOU WERE PROPOSING. I SAY WE CAN PUSH THAT UP AND WE CAN WALK THROUGH IT THAT WAY. OR WE CAN USE WHAT LAUREN SENT IN THE PDF DOCUMENT. UH, THAT'S WHAT WE DID THE LAST TIME. BUT IT SEEMED TO CAUSE SOME CONFUSION BECAUSE YEAH. DO WE HAVE THE TECHNICAL CAPABILITY OF PUTTING [00:15:01] UP HERE? I I SENT IT. YOU HAVE? IT WOULD'VE BEEN SENT TO YOU YESTERDAY. I DID NOT, BUT I CAN, I CAN PROBABLY GET IT UP HERE. JUST GIMME A SECOND. MIGHT MIGHT BE THE EASIEST GUYS CAN TALK ABOUT F*****G BACK. THEY ACTUALLY CAN EDIT IT AS WE GO. IF YOU WANT TO. PEOPLE CAN SEE THE CHANGES. YEAH, THAT'S, I'D LOVE TO DO IT THAT WAY. WELL, WOULD BE NICE. DO YOU WANNA HIGHLIGHT A MINUTE WE SHOULD PARTICULARLY PAYING ATTENTION TO, UM, IS THERE ANYTHING YOU PARTICULARLY NO, I WAS JUST THINKING ABOUT IF WE'RE GONNA PUT IT UP. I WAS THINKING MAYBE SWITCHING SIDES. YEAH. COME ON OVER. YOU WANT TO COME ON OVER? IT'S EASIER. I HAVE IT UP, UP HERE. ARE Y'ALL NOT ABLE TO PULL UP HIS EMAIL? MM-HMM. I HAVE IT. OH, OKAY. COMPUTER ADMIT TO, BUT, UM, I'LL, I'LL FORWARD YOU THAT EMAIL EXTENSION. THE BALCONY, WHICH IS, I'D HAVE TO LOOK BACK AT THE DEFINITION AGAIN. I DON'T RECALL CARRYING CAPACITY OF THE PROPERTY. YOU KNOW WHAT IT MEANS. YEAH. WE KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN. I, I DON'T RECALL THE EXACT DEFINITION. AND WE SETTLED DOWN THE TERM MOBILE HOMES LAST TIME. WE MANUFACTURER, MANUFACTURER, MANUFACTURER. WE THAT TO MANUFACTURER. I KNOW WHY IT PUTS IT IN THE DELETE FILE. IT SAID WHERE AWARE, I HEARD SOMETHING YESTERDAY THAT IN CALIFORNIA IT DOES NOT CONS. BOARD IS NOT LEGAL TO BUILD A SINGLE FAMILY HOME. WAIT, WHAT? THAT IN CALIFORNIA IT IS NOT LEGAL TO BUILD A SINGLE FAMILY HOME ANYWHERE. ANYWHERE IN STATE. OKAY. I NEVER HEARD THAT BEFORE. I HAVEN'T EITHER. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE? I CERTAINLY OWN SINGLE FAMILY HOMES IN CALIFORNIA. STATE LEGISLATURE WOULD'VE. WELL YOU I DID. OH, YOU DID? I LIVED IN CALIFORNIA. MAYBE NOW THERE BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A LIKE A HOUSING ISSUE OR SOMETHING. YEAH. THAT THAT'S WHAT'S SHOULD SAY. YEAH. AND I THINK THERE CERTAIN PARTS OF THE STATE THAT'S TRUE. SEE IF YOU CAN, WOULD YOU HAVE THE, SEE IF YOU CAN GO UP AND DOWN WITH THAT. THAT WILL ALLOW. OKAY. WELL NOT WILL. YOU'RE GOING? YEAH. IS THERE SUCH A THING AS A DOWN BUTTON OR PAGE BUTTON? NOT FROM THIS. SO IS THAT, UM, IS THAT WIRELESS? THAT KEYBOARD MOUSE? I'VE GOT A HARD COPY OF WHAT WAS BEFORE IF THAT'S SO IDEALLY IF WE COULD JUST SEE IT REAL TIME, THEY MAKE CHANGES THAT WAY EVERYONE WOULD SEE WHAT THEIR CHANGES WERE AND WHAT WE WERE AGREEING TO. THAT WOULD BE, AT LEAST IN MY MIND, CONNIE. YES. NOT THAT FAR. THAT'S NOT A WIRELESS MOUSE OR KEYBOARD. I THINK THAT IS WIRELESS KEYBOARD, ISN'T IT? THIS? YEAH. YEAH. I'M NOT SURE. YES IT IS. SO THAT SHOULD BE ABLE TO, YEAH. OKAY. YOU GUYS CAN RUN IT THEN. LET ME SEE IF I CAN MAKE THAT. I THINK YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE SCREEN. I AM. CAN YOU PASS THE MOUSE CONNIE AS WELL? YES, I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. SORRY, I'M GONNA GET BACK TO THE PAGE. IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT THAT. YEAH, JUST GET TO WHERE WE'RE OUR TWO BEGINS. YEAH, SORRY. IT'S ALRIGHT. MY HEAD'S MOVING SLOW TONIGHT. COME ON. PLEASE DON'T DO THIS TO ME. AM I TOO, DO YOU WANT ME, DO YOU WANNA MAKE IT A FULL SCREEN PLUS CONTROL PLUS? UH, NO, I THINK PLUS UP HERE. JOHN, SET UP THE RECORDER PLEASE. OH DANG. I ACTUALLY THINK THIS PROBABLY TOO FAR HERE. DO YOU WANT ME TO PUT IT BACK UP THERE AND MAKE IT BIGGER FOR YOU? YEAH, WELL I WAS THINKING WE COULD MAKE CHANGES AND STUFF. YEAH. UM, BUT NOT IF I'M TOO FAR. IF YOU WERE SITTING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TABLE, MAYBE I CAN TRY TO DO IT, I GUESS. YEAH. YOU CAN SEE WORKS. [00:20:01] UM, THAT CAN BE TRY WITH THE MOUSE. THERE YOU GO. SO YEAH. SO IT'S JUST A MATTER OF BEING SLIGHTLY CLOSER, WHICH IS FINE. YEAH. YOU SUCH A PRO. ALRIGHT. I DON'T KNOW WHAT, WHAT DO YOU GUYS WANT? DO WE JUST SCROLL THROUGH THIS AND SEE IF THERE'S ANYBODY, I KNOW WE'VE HAD SOME CHANCE TO LOOK AT THIS AS WE GO THROUGH WHAT THEIR COMMENTS ARE AS WE GO. 'CAUSE MINE, MINE ARE GONNA BE BLATANTLY OBVIOUS . RIGHT. JUST WANTED TO SEE IF I CAN'T, OKAY, SO THAT ONE THING WE DO NEED TO CHANGE IN HERE IS WHERE IT SAYS MOBILE. WE NEED TO CHANGE THAT TO MANUFACTURER IN THE LAST MM-HMM . LAST LINE. SO THAT'S ONE UPDATE WE NEED TO MAKE IN THERE. OKAY. UM, YEAH, I MEAN THE, THE INITIAL SHIFTS WHEN IT COMES TO USES PERMITTED BY, RIGHT? I MEAN, THE STATEMENT OF TENT MAKES SENSE. UM, BY, RIGHT. UH, WE'RE ADDING IN TOWN HOMES AND A AND AUXILIARIES. IS THAT RIGHT? THAT WAS OR IS THAT A JUSTIFIED? THERE'S A THERE AT THE PURPLE THAT CAME FROM, UM, THE, UH, THAT WASN'T ME, BUT THAT WAS WHEN I PUT THAT, THAT CAME FROM THE, THE PERSON WHO, UH, THE, THE OTHER GUY THAT DID THE CONSULTANT MM-HMM . THAT, THAT, THAT'S SHOWING NOW. THAT WASN'T ME. AND SO THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE ADDING. THEY ADDED IN. BUT I LIKE THIS VERSION TOO. 'CAUSE WE CAN SEE WHAT THE CONSULTANT DID. YEAH, THAT'S THE ADUS IS WHAT YOU AND WHAT ON THE PDF? YOU CAN'T TELL WHAT THE CONSULTANT DID. MM-HMM . UM, ACTUALLY, AND THEN WHOOP TYPE IT CORRECTLY. OKAY. AND THEN, AND GOING DOWN, YOU CAN SEE HE ALSO ADDED TOWN HOMES. I ADDED THE A DU THAT, THAT ACTUALLY IS GOING TO THE PUBLIC HEARING, UM, THIS MONTH. RIGHT? DU YEAH. A DU. SO IT IS OUT OF YOUR, UM, FROM LISTENING TO IT, THERE'S ONE, ONE COUNCIL PERSON HAS CONCERN, BUT I BELIEVE REST ARE FINE, BUT IT'S IN HERE. IF FOR SOME REASON IT GETS DERAILED, THERE'S HAVE TO BE TAKEN BACK DOWN. THAT WAS, I THINK WAS IN THE R ONE, IT WAS CONCERNS IN THE R ONE. THERE WERE CONCERNS IN THE R ONE, WHICH YOU CAN ALREADY UNDER OTHER RULES, YOU COULD DO SOMETHING SIMILAR TO A DU NOW. SO IT WAS, UH, THERE'S SOME CONFUSION TO THE, WHAT THE CONFUSION IS, BUT WE'LL, WE'LL LET, WHEN ITS COURSE MAYBE TO THERE BE A LOWERCASE YOU INSIDE THEIS FOR UNITS. YEAH. MAKE IT TO THE ADUS, PLURAL. LOWERCASE AT, YEAH. OH, I SEE. YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T PUT IT. YEAH. OH GOSH. WHERE SHOULD IT BE? UNITS? SINGULAR. THERE WE'RE DRILLING UNIT. WELL, THAT'S SAYS DUPLEXES, TOWNHOUSES. YEAH, THEY DO. WE OUGHT TO PUT IN, WE COULD PROBABLY OUGHT TO PUT IN AS TO BE MORE, MORE CORRECT. . RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. MORE CORRECTOR. RIGHT. CAN I, UH, THIS IS JUST THIS ANYWAY. CAN I MAKE A REQUEST THAT WE CHANGE, THERE'S SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. SINGLE FAMILY DWELLINGS, DETACHED ARE SPELL IS SPELLED OR PRESENTED. AND CAN I JUST SUGGEST THAT WE DO SINGLE FAMILY DWELLINGS DETACHED WITH NO COMMA? UH, THAT MAKES IT MORE CONFUSING. WE NEED TO SAY DETACH IF WE MEET SINGLE FAMILY DWELLINGS. YEAH. JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN'T HAVE ATTACHED ONES. YEAH. YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T. OBJECTION YOUR, UM, IT APPEARS TO BOTH WAYS. UH, IT APPEARS WITH A, UH, COMMA AND WITHOUT A COMMA. SO YOU DON'T CARE WHICH WAY, JUST THE ONE IS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. YES. UH, JUST FOR PARSING. IT'D BE NICER IF IT WASN'T THE COMMON. WELL, ONLY THE PARSING. SO IF IT'S SIX OF ONE, HALF DOZEN OF ANOTHER, WHAT DO YOU WANNA SAY? THE TEST? SINGLE FAMILY D WELL, EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT IN THAT CASE IT'S, IT, IT DOESN'T FOLLOW THE METHODOLOGY OF TWO FAMILY DWELLINGS. DUPLEXES, RIGHT? MM-HMM . UM, TOWNHOUSES. IT KIND OF PUTS THE DETACHED PRIMARY. SO I WAS THINKING OF THAT TOO. BUT AGAIN, WE'RE JUST, WE'RE LOOKING AT IT. SO THAT'S, IT JUST SHOWS UP IN DIFFERENT WAYS. YEAH. THROUGHOUT THE DOCUMENT. I, I, I PERSONALLY LIKE THIS METHOD, OR [00:25:01] PUT IT IN PARENTHESES, DETACHED EITHER WAY. BUT, BUT I, I PERSONALLY LIKE THIS, BUT WE'RE DOWN. WE HAVE A, WE HAVE A DEFINITION FOR SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING, AND WE HAVE A DEFINITION FOR A DETACHED DWELLING. SINGLE FAMILY. SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING. AND A DEFINITION FOR A DETACHED DWELLING. OKAY. IT DOESN'T SAY THAT A SINGLE FAMILY DETACHED. DWELLING. RIGHT. SO YOU BE BOTH. SO YOU WOULD, UH, SO IT IS AMBIGUOUS. WHAT WOULD BE, UH, SO A SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING IS A SINGLE RESIDENTIAL DWELLING UNIT OTHER THAN A MOBILE HOME, OR MANUFACTURED HOME DESIGNED FOR OCCUPANCY BY ONE FAMILY AND NOT LOCATED ON THE SAME LOT AS ANOTHER DWELLING UNIT. SO YOU WOULD HAVE ONE SINGLE FAMILY HOME ON ONE LOT. A DE A DETEST DWELLING IS A DWELLING, WHICH IS ENTIRELY FREESTANDING ON A LOT. SO WE HAVE, YOU HAVE A SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING. UM, SO YOU CAN HAVE A SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING ATTACHED LIKE A DUPLEX. MM-HMM . OR A TOWN HOME. MM-HMM . IT'S ATTACHED TO ANOTHER, BUT IT'S ON ITS OWN LOT. A LOCK LINE. THE LOT LINE IS DOWN THROUGH THE STRUCTURE. RIGHT. DOWN THROUGH THE STRUCTURE. RIGHT. SO A TOWNHOUSE IS A SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING. ONE FAMILY. IT SHARES A PARTY WALL WITH ANOTHER BUILDING. IT'S ATTACHED TO IT, BUT THE PROPERTY LINE HAS OWNERSHIP WITH IT. SO WHAT THIS DETACHED MEANS, IT WOULD BE YOUR TYPICAL SINGLE FAMILY HOME THAT YOU TYPICALLY SEE IN A SUBDIVISION. THAT'S THE DETACHED PART OF IT. YOUR, YOUR CONCERN. IT WAS CONSISTENCY IN THE DOCUMENT, RIGHT. WHETHER IT HAS A COMM OR IT DOESN'T HAVE A COMM. RIGHT. YOU'RE JUST THINKING FROM LIKE A GRAMMAR. YEAH. THAT'S IT. FROM A GRAMMAR POINT OF VIEW. SO THE DETACH COULD GO IN THE FRONT. DETACH WOULD BE LESS CONFUSING. YOU COULD, YEAH, WE COULD PROBABLY LOOK AT THE DEFINITIONS AGAIN OR BEFORE FINALIZATION TO MAKE SURE, UH, THAT OUR INTERPRETATION IS CORRECT. YEAH. SO WE COULD, IT JUST WAY THE CODE IS SET UP NOW. IT IS DWELLING FIRST COMMA. YEAH. THEN DETACHED, THEN ATTACHED. DETACHED. MULTI-FAMILY, SEMI-DETACHED. YEP. SINGLE FAMILY, TEMPORARY DWELLING. TWO FAMILY. SO LET'S PUT THE COMMA IN IT. YEAH. AND SINGLE FAMILY DWELLINGS, DETACHED COMMA. THEN ANYWHERE THAT OCCURS, THE COMMON. THAT'S THAT. IT'S ALSO SHOWING UP, UM, IN SOMEWHERE ELSE IN OUR TWO WITHOUT THE COMMON. OKAY. SO, SO WE'LL, WE'LL COME ACROSS IT. SO AT TWO FAMILY DWELLINGS, DON'T GET THOSE CONFUSED FOR A DUPLEX. RIGHT. MAYBE THEY STILL HAVE THIS SHARE THE SINGLE DOOR. IT APPEARS AS A SINGLE FAMILY DOOR BESIDE , BUT IT'S A RESIDENTIAL BUILDING CONTAINING NOT MORE THAN TWO DWELLING UNITS. THEY CAN BE A RANGE. ONE, ONE ABOVE THE OTHER OR SIDE BY SIDE. OKAY. SO TYPICALLY WE PROBABLY NEED TO LOOK AT A DUPLEX. INTERESTING. WE DON'T HAVE A DEFINITION OF DUPLEX IN THE DEFINITION, BUT WE LIST IT AS A USE. OKAY. SO, SO THAT HAS TO BE, SO, SO YOU COULD, IN THE R TWO, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU COULD HAVE ONE BUILDING THAT HAS A TWO FAMILY UNIT SIDE BY SIDE. ONE, ONE LOCKED. THE DUPLEX WOULD COME IN WHERE IT SEPARATES THE PARTY WALL. AND THEN THEY'RE ON THEIR OWN LOCKED. THAT'S, MM. SO WE, WE HAVE A DUPLEX LISTED IN THE USES, BUT NOT IN THE DEFINITION. YEAH. WE NEED THAT DUPLEX DEFINITION. THAT'S OF OVERSIGHT. YEAH. WE PROBABLY NEED TO LOOK AT THE DWELLING DEFINITIONS, UH, AND MAKE SURE THOSE LINE UP WITH OUR USES AND WHEN THEY HAVE TO TWEAK THOSE A LITTLE BIT. SO YOU COULD HAVE A TWO FAMILY DWELLING [00:30:02] ON ONE LOT, OR THEN WHEN YOU SPLIT THE LOT THROUGH THE PARTY WALL, IT BECOMES A DUPLEX. 'CAUSE IT HAS OWNERSHIP FOR TWO HOUSES ON TWO LOTS. DOES THAT KIND OF MAKE SENSE? OR TWO FAMILY ACTS COULD BE ONE ABOVE THE OTHER. IT DOES, BUT THE DEFINITION, THAT'S FINE. ARE YOU STUCK IN PARTICULAR POINT? NO, I'M NOT STUCK. OKAY. UH, I JUST MAKE A NOTE. YEAH, WE CAN MAKE A NOTE. MAKING A NOTE TO DO THAT. WE'LL KEEP OUR NOTES. AND CON YOU'RE MAKING NOTES DOWN THERE TOO, RIGHT? MM-HMM . RIGHT? BECAUSE WE, WE LIST THE USE. IT'S A LITTLE CONFUSING TO ME, BUT WE, LIKE, WE LIST THE USE AS A TOWNHOUSE, BUT WE DON'T DEFINE TOWNHOUSE . SO THAT WOULD BE COMING FROM A, THAT'S A FOUR TOWNHOUSES. DON'T YOU NEED FOUR TO BE A TOWNHOUSES? WELL, OR THREE OR FOUR. THREE, RIGHT. THREE. RIGHT. SO THAT WOULD BE A, A ATTACHED DWELLING TOWN HOME WOULD BE AN EIGHT. ATTACHED DWELLING TOWN HOME AND DUPLEXES ARE ATTACHED TO. RIGHT. SO WE MAY WANNA TWEAK THOSE AS IS THAT SOMETHING YOU AND CONDOS TOO? SO I'M GUESS THAT'S ACTUALLY A VERY GOOD POINT. DO WE HAVE CONDOS IN THE CODE AT ALL? NOT THAT WE HAVE ANY TOWN, BUT I'M SURE THAT WE DO HAVE DEFINITIONS FOR TOWNHOUSE . BUT I'M WONDERING IF IT WAS, REMEMBER WHEN WE WERE LOOKING AT ALL THE DEFINITIONS ON THAT EXCEL SPREADSHEET? I'M WONDERING IF THAT'S WHEN WE ADDED THAT. BUT IF, IF, IF YOU'RE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE BUILDING PART ASPECTS OF IT, WHEN YOU HAVE THE USE AND THAT USE IS NOT LISTED WITH THE DEFINITION THAT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE BUILDING PART WORKS BY DEFINITION. AND YOU'RE GONNA BE WORKING ON THAT, RACHEL, YOU'RE GONNA BE REVIEWING THE, THE DEFINITIONS? YES, WE CAN. WE CAN, YEAH. UM, I HAVE FOR TOWNHOUSE AT LEAST THREE AND NOT MORE THAN EIGHT ATTACHED D ALLING UNITS FORMING A CONTINUOUS TRUCTURE, EACH UNIT BEING SEPARATED BY UN PIERCE COMMON S'S IN. SO WE DO HAVE IT IN THERE IN THE, IN THE, IN THE MARKUP. TOWNHOUSE IS ALREADY IN THERE. IS DUPLEX ALREADY IN THERE TOO? YES. DUPLEXES IN HERE TOO. OKAY. SO WE HAVE, WE HAVE COVERED THIS GROUND THEN WE JUST DON'T REMEMBER. IT'S JUST NOT IN THERE. JUST NOT IN THERE. BUT IT HAS BEEN UPDATED IN FUTURE DEFINITIONS. A TWO FAMILY, UH, RESIDENTIAL STRUCTURE WITH EACH UNIT HAVING ITS OWN EXTERIOR ENTRANCE. RESIDENTIAL UNITS MAY BE ARRANGED ONE ABOVE THE OTHER OR BE SEMI-DETACHED. WE HAVE A DUPLEX BEING A TWO OVER TWO. SORRY, WHEN YOU, UH, ONE OVER ONE WENT OVER ONE OR ONE OVER ONE IN THAT CASE. YEAH. I DON'T KNOW WHAT SEMI DETACHED I LOOK, I THINK IT'S IN THAT WORK THAT, DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN WE WERE DOING THIS IN THE SUMMER? WE'RE LOOKING AT ALL THE DEFINITIONS. I THINK THAT THIS IS WHERE THIS, THAT'S WHERE THAT CAME FROM. YEAH. OKAY. WE'LL, WE'LL REVISIT. YOU NEED TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT ALL THAT AGAIN TO MAKE SURE. GOING BACK TO THE POINT YOU RAISED ABOUT CONDOS. DO WE HAVE CONDOS? I DON'T THINK SO. SHOULD WE ADD I DON'T THINK CONDOMINIUMS ARE IN THERE, BUT WE, WE DON'T HAVE WELL, THAT WHAT THAT RAISES IS THE QUESTION OF, UH, CONDOMINIUM CONCEPT IS OWNER GOES TO OWNERSHIP. YEAH. NOT FORM. BECAUSE YOU CAN HAVE, SO YOU'RE SAYING YOU DON'T HAVE TO, I MEAN, I CAN RESEARCH IT, BUT RIGHT NOW I DON'T THINK IT'S A, A ZONING ISSUE. YEAH. IT'S AN OWNERSHIP ISSUE IS OWNERSHIP. OKAY. INTERESTING. SO IT WOULD BE ZONE AS AN APARTMENT OR SOMETHING THAT THE STRUCTURE WOULD BE AN APARTMENT BECAUSE CONDOMINIUMS, YOU DON'T HAVE TO. OKAY. YOU DON'T OWN THE GROUND UNDER THEM. TYPICALLY THEY'RE, THEY'RE UNIT. YOU MAY OWN THE UNIT BUT NOT THE GROUND UNDER. IT MAY LOOK LIKE A HOUSE, BUT ON A SUBSTANDARD LOT AND ALL THOSE STUFF. ALL SORTS OF STUFF. OKAY. OKAY. UM, ANYTHING ELSE IN THE STUFF THAT'S AVAIL DONE BY WRIGHT IN TERMS OF THIS LIST THAT YOU WANT TO TOUCH ON OR HAVE ISSUE WITH OR COMMENTS? UH, THAT COMMENT AT THE BOTTOM, THERE WAS SUCH A, THE, THAT'S THE SAME THING WE HAD IN R ONE. THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE OTHER THAN WE TOOK OUT THE LAST LINE, WHICH WAS OBJECTION FROM THE LAST TIME. UM, SORRY, WHAT, WHAT'S OUR DEFINITION FOR MULTIFAMILY DWELLING UNITS? MULTIFAMILY, [00:35:03] UH, LET'S SEE. WE HAVE APARTMENT HOUSE IS A MULTIFAMILY STRUCTURE, SO THAT'S NOT THE DEFINITION. DWELLING MULTIFAMILY, A STRUCTURE ORIGINALLY ARRANGED OR DESIGNED TO BE COMPOSED OF THREE OR MORE DWELLING UNITS, AN APARTMENT HOUSE, PARENTHETICALLY, WITH THE NUMBER OF FAMILIES AND RESIDENTS NOT EXCEEDING THE NUMBER OF DWELLING UNITS PROVIDED. OKAY. UH, WHEN IT COMES TO ADDING, UH, WAS EFFECTIVELY FOR SIMPLICITY SAKE, APARTMENT BUILDINGS TO R TWO. UH, AND THIS HAVING NOT BEING A CURRENTLY AVAILABLE THING BY, BY SPECIAL USE PERMIT. DO WE HAVE ANY CONCERNS ABOUT GOING OVERLY DENSE? BECAUSE WE'RE SAYING ME, UH, LOW TO MEDIUM DENSITY FOR R TWO APARTMENTS ARE NOT MEDIUM DENSITY. THEY ARE HIGH DENSITY. YOU'RE GONNA NEED A LOT OF PEOPLE IN A SMALL SPACE. DOES DO WE THINK THIS MIGHT CONFLICT WITH THE STATE STATEMENT OF INTENT AND THE PURPOSE OF R TWO IN THAT CASE? UM, AND WE LOOK LATER AT R THREE, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, WE'RE SEEING, IN MY OPINION, AT LEAST, WE'RE BE SEEING SOME REDUNDANCIES. AND IT MAKES ME WONDER, YOU KNOW, ARE WE KEEPING THESE AREAS DISTINCT ENOUGH? DISTINCT AND, AND ALLOWING. SO WHERE MULTIFAMILY APARTMENTS, DO YOU SEE APARTMENTS THEN? WELL, I'M CALLING IT APARTMENTS FOR THE SAKE OF SIMPLICITY, BUT MULTIFAMILY DWELLING UNITS. OKAY. AND HOW MANY DWELL, HOW MANY DWELLINGS? IS IT MULTIFAMILY? IT? UH, MINIMUM OF THREE. MINIMUM THREE, BUT NO MAXIMUM. THAT CHANGE OF, OF ZONING THAT JUST WENT THROUGH THE TOWN COUNCIL FOR THE A V LOT, WAS THAT THAT WAS GOING FROM IT WAS IT IT WAS, IT WAS A REZONING FROM COMMERCIAL TO WHAT? R THREE? IT WAS R THREE. IT WAS R THREE. OKAY. IF I CAN REVISIT CONDOMINIUM FOR A SECOND. YES. SO I JUST QUICKLY PULLED UP LEESBURG ZONING ORDINANCE. THEY DEFINE THE CONDOMINIUM AND IT'S DEFINED AS A FORM OF REAL PROPERTY OWNERSHIP WHEREBY A BUILDING OR GROUP OF BUILDINGS IN WHICH DWELLING UNITS, OFFICES, OR FLOOR AREA ARE OWNED INDIVIDUALLY. AND THE STRUCTURE, COMMON AREAS AND FACILITIES ARE OWNED BY ALL OF THE OWNERS ON A PROPORTIONAL, UNDIVIDED BASIS. AND OWN, UH, UH, OWNER'S ASSOCIATION IS ORGANIZED FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAINTAINING, ADMINISTERING, AND OPERATING THE COMMON AREAS OF THE FACILITIES. CONDOMINIUM SHALL NOT MEAN ANY PARTICULAR TYPE OF DWELLING OR UNIT. SO IT'S OWNERSHIP. IT GOES TO OWNER OWNERSHIP. AND WHAT SECTION OF THEIR, OF THE CODE IS THAT IN? IT'S IN THEIR DEFINITION. SECTION 18.1, POINT 36. IS IT THEIR ZONING ORDINANCE? RIGHT. SO IT IS IN THEIR ZONING ORDINANCE. THEY DO DEFINE IT. OKAY. SO SHOULD, DO YOU THINK THAT WE SHOULD DO THAT? UM, FOR PURPOSES OF COMPLETENESS? POSSIBLY. I'LL REVISIT THAT. OKAY. OKAY. WELL, THAT PROBABLY WANNA LOOK TO THE FUTURE, BUT IT, BUT IT DOES CONFIRM WHAT I JUST SAID EARLIER, WHICH IS IT'S, IT GOES TO OWNERSHIP NOT RIGHT. RIGHT. NOT STRETCH, NOT FORM. RIGHT. OKAY. ALRIGHT. SO LET'S SEE. THANK YOU, GEORGE. THANK YOU. LOOKING FOR THAT. TO GET BACK TO YOUR POINT ABOUT IF WE EXPAND APARTMENTS IN R TWO AND THAT'S MORE OF A HIGH DENSITY, THEN IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THAT'S APPROPRIATE. I I WOULDN'T THINK SO, BUT I MEAN, I JUST MEAN, UH, NOW OF COURSE R THREE DOES ALLOW A LOT OF OTHER THINGS THAT R TWO DOESN'T. SO, YOU KNOW, AND PURELY LOOKING AT IT FROM THE, UH, RESIDENTIAL SIDE, BUT IN TERMS OF, FUNNILY ENOUGH, ACTUALLY R THREE DOESN'T ALLOW FOR MULTIFAMILY, BUT IT DOES SAY APARTMENT . UM, SO I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, I AM, I'M WILLING TO BE DISMISSED ON THIS, BUT I JUST WANNA BE REALLY CAUTIOUS. IT IS, IT IS A, UM, A SPECIAL USE IN R TWO. SO IT WOULD BE A CASE BY CASE BASIS OR IT MAY FIT IN DEPENDING ON THE CIRCUMSTANCE. YES. BUT ONCE THEY START BEING ALLOWED, AND THEN IT'S MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO SAY NO ACROSS THE BOARD. I'M, I'M AND, BUT EXCEPT FOR THE NEXT BUT ONE SPECIAL USE PERMIT DOES NOT GUARANTEE THE NEXT ONE. NO, THAT IS CORRECT. SO YOU, YOU SEEING THINGS THAT ARE POTENTIALLY SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT. IT'S JUST, IT IS BY DEFINITION MORE THAN A MEDIUM DENSITY, I WOULD THINK. YEAH. [00:40:01] RIGHT. AND SO THAT IN ITSELF SEEMS TO JUST VIOLATE WHAT WE HAVE AS A PURPOSE FOR R TWO OVERALL. THE ONLY, THE ONLY THING IS, IS DO WE NOT ALLOW FOR AN EXCEPTION IN A CASE WHERE IT MAY BE APPROPRIATE IN AN R TWO, BUT NOT KNOWING IT MAY BE THAT MAY NEVER COME UP OR IT MAY COME UP ALL THE TIME. UH, I MEAN, A DEVELOPER WILL, WILL, BUT OFTENTIMES GO FOR THE HIGHER DENSITY BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, SO THIS, THIS, THIS IS SOMETHING THE CONSULTANT PUT. I'M JUST PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE FOR THE DISCUSSION AND GOING, GOING WITH, BECAUSE I THINK YOU HAVE A POINT. I MEAN, IT, I WOULD SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, IF THERE'S AN AREA WHERE SHOULD HAVE HIGHER DENSITY, THEN THAT'S WHERE PROBLEMS ARE NOW. IN R THREE I, I THINK THERE'S A HANDS DOWN OKAY. MULTIFAMILY DARING APARTMENTS OR WHATEVER YOU WANT. I THINK THAT'S RIGHT. OH, ABSOLUTELY. RIGHT. YEAH. ESPECIALLY APARTMENT. DID YOU JUST SAY THAT TOWNHOUSE? I MEAN, TOWN TOWNHOUSES ARE NOT HIGH DENSITY. NO, NO. I'M SAYING THAT HALLS WOULD BE A MEDIUM. OKAY. BUT IF YOU'RE ALLOWING THE SITUATION WHERE YOU'RE GONNA HAVE, YOU KNOW, SEVERAL FLOORS OF A BUILDING, WE WILL ALL STACKED TOGETHER. THAT'S WHAT MULTIFAMILY ALLOWS FOR. RIGHT. UM, AND THAT'S NOT MEDIUM DENSITY. THAT WOULD BE A HIGH DENSITY. IT MAKES WONDER IF THE CONSULTANT RIDE THE DEFINITION WHEN HE PUT THAT IN THERE THINKING IT WAS SOMETHING ELSE. UH, UNLESS IT'S, I MEAN IT NEEDS TO HAVE AT LEAST THREE FAMILIES. YEAH. AT LEAST THREE. BUT NOT, NOT NOT, BUT NO MORE THAN FIVE. IT DOESN'T SAY THAT. IT DOESN'T SAY THAT. YEAH. SO I'M JUST THINKING LIKE A SPECIAL USE WOULD BE IF SOMEBODY WAS JUST PUTTING SOMETHING UP THAT WAS A THREE FAMILY HOME, WELL THEN THREE TOWN HOMES BECAUSE THAT'S THREE GRAND TOWN THAT THEIR FAMILY HOME. OR IF THEIR FAMILY, I THINK I THINK YOU HAVE POINT. YEAH, GO AHEAD AND STRIKE IT FOR NOW. YEAH. AND UH, 'CAUSE I CERTAINLY HAVE DISAGREED WITH SOME OF THE THINGS I PUT IN WITH THE CONSULTANTS. DO YOU WANNA PUT A NOTE IN THERE, A COMMENT JUST OR NO? DO WE NOT NEED TO KEEP TRACK OF THAT? I CAN, YEAH. PUT, LET'S PUT A NOTE. YOU KNOW, NOT YEAH. NOT CONSIDERED MEDIUM DENSITY TRACK IN CASE WE'RE MISSING SOMETHING. THESE CHANGE, WE SHOULD TRACK THE CHANGE SO THAT YEAH. THEY READ TRACK IN HERE. I KNOW, BUT JUST IN CASE WE'RE MISSING SOME OTHER RATIONALE MM-HMM . I LOVE DOING THIS THIS WAY. OH MY GOSH. THIS KEYBOARD IS NOT WORKING. IT'S NOT REALLY RESPONDING. . THERE WE GO. ALL RIGHT. GEEZ. THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE ON THAT, EVERYBODY. OH, THANK YOU FOR DOING IT. YEAH. THANK YOU FOR DOING THAT. UM, DOESN'T, I DON'T THINK ANYONE HAS ISSUES DESIGNATED SPECIAL PURPOSE HOUSING , UM, SCHOOL ON DOWN. DID ANYONE HAVE ANYTHING IN FOR THE MODELED HOMES? I MEAN, THAT'S BASICALLY THE SAME AS IT IS FOR ANYBODY ELSE. YEAH. OR FOR ANY OF THE OTHERS? UM, NO. THE CONSULTANT HAD A BUNCH OF CHANGES IN SQUARE FEET FOOTAGE OF AREA AND R TWO AND 6 6 5. BUT DOES THAT, DID ANYONE HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH THAT? YEAH, I MEAN, WE WERE LOOKING AT, THIS IS THE SAME THING WE'RE LOOKING AT WITH R ONE AND R ONE A. RIGHT? UM, ARE WE REALLY GONNA SLASH THE SETBACK FOR A SIDE YARD DOWN TO FIVE FEET IN AN R TWO? WHAT DID WE IN R ONE A THOUGH? WE DID FIVE, DIDN'T WE? OR DID WE DO 10? WE DID 10 IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY. YEAH. OKAY. UM, IN THAT CASE, DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD SCALE IT AND HAVE IT THEN BE SEVEN THEN R THREE CAN BE FIVE OR SOMETHING? UM, I REMIND MYSELF WHAT IT IS IN R THREE REAL QUICK. OH, YEAH. R THREE IS JUST TREATED SO DIFFERENTLY. THERE'S ACTUALLY NO COMPARISON. I FORGOT. UM MM-HMM. NO, NEVERMIND. R THREE SAYS SEVEN. SEVEN . OKAY. SO I THINK WE SWITCH THOSE. HOW ABOUT, HOW ABOUT THAT ? YOU MEAN IF WE'RE GOING, WE'RE SCALING THE DENSITY HIGHER WITH EACH ONE, THEN THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE. I WOULD SAY SO SCROLL BACK DOWN TO SIX. 6.6 0.5. 6.6 0.5. YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT WHERE I HAD THE R TWO MINIMUM BLOCK SIZE. OH, LOT SIZE. OH, SORRY. HERE I WAS LOOKING AT SETBACKS. MY, OKAY, NEVERMIND. IGNORE ME. DID, DID ANYONE HAVE THAT? THESE ARE CHANGES THAT HE HAD MADE IN THERE. DID ANYONE HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH THAT? MM-HMM . SO YOU'RE REDUCING THE DUPLEX. MM-HMM . YOU HAVE TO START OFF WITH, LET'S SEE, 6,000, THEN THAT CAN BE DOWN TO 3000. SPLIT. MM-HMM . LOTS, SIZE OF 3000 FEET. PRETTY SMALL. AND MY HOUSE IS GETTING REALLY CONFUSED. IN WHAT WAY? SO [00:45:01] THE, ESPECIALLY WHAT JOHN JUST SAID, THE MINIMUM LOT SIZE FOR A DUPLEX STRUCTURE IS THE, THE CONSULTANT IS SAYING SIX SHOULD BE 6,000 FEET. MM-HMM . RIGHT? CURRENTLY WE HAVE EIGHT. OKAY. THEN IT SAYS THE MINIMUM LOT SIZE FOR A TOWNHOUSE STRUCTURE IS 8,000 SQUARE FEET. RIGHT. SO THE, BECAUSE THE TOWNHOUSE STRUCTURE NEEDS TO HAVE AT LEAST THREE HOMES NEXT TO IT. MM-HMM . I SEE. OKAY. OR AT LEAST THREE HOMES IN THAT BUILDING. OKAY. WELL, YEAH. SO WE KNOW WHY THEY WANTED TO REDUCE THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE. UPPING DENSITY. UPPING DENSITY. WELL THE OTHER, THE OTHER SIDE THAT LAUREN HAD MENTIONED THAT THERE, UM, IN THE ORIGINAL, LIKE THE SURVEYS OF WHAT'S CURRENTLY PRESENT, THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF HOMES, UH, UH, PROPERTIES THAT ARE IN CERTAIN, UH, ZONING DISTRICTS RIGHT NOW THAT ARE NONCONFORMING. AND THIS WOULD BRING THEM INTO A LOT OF SURE, I REMEMBER THAT. YEAH, I REMEMBER THAT. UM, I WISH I COULD SEE WHERE THOSE ARE, HOW MANY THERE ARE. IS IT A SIGNIFICANT PERCENTAGE OR IS IT, YOU KNOW, LIKE 20%. RIGHT. WHAT'S THE RATIONALE THAT'S PULLING THIS? BUT THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT'S BEEN PRESENTED AS WELL. SO, SO PAT, THE WAY, JUST ON A PRACTICAL BASIS, IF YOU DON'T MIND, THE WAY YOU LOOK AT THIS IS, UM, IF WE'RE ALLOWING DUPLEXES, WE HAVE SOMEWHERE THAT SAYS WHAT THE SIZE, THE SQUARE FOOTAGE OF A DUPLEX IS EXPECTED TO BE. THE LOT. IT'S DETERMINED BY SETBACKS. MM-HMM . OKAY. AND THE LOT SIZE AND SET. LOT SIZE. SO CURRENTLY IT'S 8,000. SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE A MINIMUM LOT OF 8,000 SQUARE FOOT LOT. THEN YOU CAN SPLIT IT FOR OWNERSHIP. THEN YOU HAVE A 4,000 AND A 4,000 SQUARE FOOT LOT REACH DUPLEX. OKAY. CURRENTLY, BUT NOW YOU'RE REDUCING THAT TO 6,000. AND EACH INDIVIDUAL ONE WOULD HAVE A 3000 SQUARE FOOT LOT. AND DO YOU TIE THAT BACK AT ALL TO LIKE A SINGLE FAMILY HOME? LIKE WHERE DID THAT NUMBER COME FROM? WELL, OR INCREASING DENSITY. SO THE LOT, THE SIZE IS GETTING SMALLER. GETTING SMALLER. IF THAT'S WHAT THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN COMP PLAN SAYS, THAT WE SHOULD INCREASE DENSITY ON THESE SMALLER LOTS. AND, AND, AND THAT, AND THAT'S KEY. WE'RE UPDATING THIS TO BE FOLLOW. YEAH. FOLLOW PLAN TO INCREASE THE DENSITY. THAT'S THE DRIVING FACTOR HERE. SO WE HAVE SEVERAL LOTS IN TOWN. I MEAN, LIKE, I'LL USE AN EXAMPLE. A GUY CAME IN TODAY, HE HAS SIX LOTS. WAS EACH LOT'S ONLY 25 FOOT WIDE. WELL THE SETBACK FOR THAT DISTRICT IS A MINIMUM OF 25 FOOT. SO HIS WHOLE SETBACK HAS TAKEN UP THE LOT IS HE CAN'T BUILD ANYTHING ON THE LOT. EACH LOT. HE CANNOT BUILD ON, IT'S 20 FOOT, 25 FOOT WIDE, BUT THE SETBACK IS 10 AND 15. SO YOU COULDN'T EVEN PUT A BIRD BOX RIGHT ON THE LOT. YEAH. SO HE'S FORCED NOW TO CONSOLIDATE HIS LOTS TO GET AN APPROPRIATE SIZE TO DO ANYTHING. OKAY. SO HE HAS THE LUXURY THAT HE HAS SIX LOTS. RIGHT. HE DIDN'T HAVE SIX LOTS FOR EXAMPLE. MAYBE HE ONLY HAD TWO THEN HE, YOU ONLY HAVE 50 FOOT OF LOT FRONTAGE THERE. YEAH. YOU WOULD HAVE TO CONSOLIDATE THAT. THEN WE COULD LOOK AT THE SETBACKS. SEE, CAN YOU PUT SOMETHING ON THERE? YEAH. I MEAN, IF YOU HAVE A 50 FOOT LOT IN A 10 AND A 1525 FOOT SETBACK, THAT MEANS THE HOUSE, THE MAXIMUM WIDTH OF THAT HOUSE IS ONLY GONNA BE 25 FOOT WIDE IN A SINGLE FAMILY, WHICH IS JUST A LITTLE BIT LARGER THAN A TOWN HALL. OKAY. SO WHILE WE'RE TRYING TO RE, BASED ON THE COMP PLANS, THESE LOTS THAT WE HAVE IN FILL IN LOTS, WE'RE TRYING TO REDUCE THE SIZE REQUIREMENTS. SO YOU COULD PUT A HOUSE AND THEN WE'RE WIDENING THE SETBACKS 'CAUSE THEY'RE NOT, YOU KNOW, NOW WE'RE GOING TO FIVE FEET OR SOMETHING. YEAH. SO INSTEAD OF HAVING A 25 FOOT SETBACK OF 10 AND A 15, NOW YOU'RE DOING A FIVE AND A FIVE AND A 10. SO YOU CAN AT LEAST GET A HOUSE ON THE LOT. RIGHT. INCREASE THE DENSITY. UM, IS THAT KIND OF, THAT'S HELPING ME. OKAY. YEAH. OKAY. I'M SORRY, GO AHEAD. NO, JUST REALLY QUICKLY. WELL, HOW DO WE DETERMINE WHAT IS LOW DENSITY? WHAT IS MEDIUM? WHAT ARE THOSE BOUNDARIES? MILLIONS. WE HAVE THOSE COUNTS. THAT'S, THAT'S BASED ON THE COMP COMP PLAN. IS THAT ALL IN THE COMP PLAN? COMP PLAN. AND DEFINED AND DEFINED IN THE COMP PLAN. PERFECT. I'LL LOOK THAT UP THERE. OKAY. THANKS. YEAH. OKAY. SO, SO HAVING THOSE NUMBERS, THAT'S SOMETHING TO KEEP IN MIND TO SEE IF THEY'RE APPROPRIATE. THEN WE NEED TO LOOK AND SEE [00:50:01] IF THE SETBACKS ARE APPROPRIATE TO GET THESE NUMBERS. IS THAT WHAT WE'RE SAYING? WELL, YES. THE OTHER THING I'M, THAT I'M LOOKING AT HERE IS IT DOESN'T SEEM TO MAKE SENSE THAT WE'RE GONNA PUT SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO 6,000 WHEN, FOR EXAMPLE, AN R THREE IS 7,500. SAME THING WITH THE SETBACKS. IF WE'RE GONNA SAY FIVE FEET HERE AND THEN SEVEN FEET OVER AN R THREE, THEN AREN'T WE FLIPPING THESE AND MAKING R TWO MORE DENSE THAN R THREE? AND SHOULDN'T IT BE THE OTHER WAY AROUND? DISAGREE. JUST JUMP AHEAD INTO R THREE HERE FOR A SEC TO SEE WHAT SAYS. SO WHAT, WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST? I WOULD, I WOULD IN ASK CASE, I WOULD JUST FLIP 'EM 7,500 HERE AND SIX ON THE OTHER. SORRY. YEAH. IT MAY BE, BUT WE CAN, WE CAN TRY THAT. WE'D HAVE TO GO LOOK TO SEE IF WE HAVE A LOT OF R TWO LOTS THAT ARE NOT BUILDABLE AND THEY FALL IN THIS CATEGORY. SURE. THAT, THAT, THAT COULD BE A DRIVING FORCE. BUT I UNDERSTAND. YES, I AGREE WITH THE DENSITY OF IT. MM-HMM . THE R TWO SHOULD BE A BIGGER LOT THAN THE R THREE. YEAH. BUT WE MAY HAVE A LOT OF R TWO LOTS THAT ARE, THEY'RE VACANT FOR A REASON. NOW COULD WE THEN, I MEAN THAT WOULD BE A, A REZONING IN THAT CASE. RIGHT? WELL AND THOSE, THOSE OWNERS COULD YOU, YOU AGAIN, YOU WOULD HAVE TO SEE THE LOTS, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAVE A GROUP OF R TWO LOTS, IF YOU DON'T HAVE AN R THREE AROUND IT, THEN YOUR SPOT ZONE, HOW HARD WOULD THAT BE TO GET THAT? WELL, WE PROBABLY CAN GET SOME NUMBERS NOW A LITTLE BIT BETTER SINCE WE HAVE A FULL-TIME GIS PERSON. OH, WE GOT THEM. OH, CONGRATULATIONS. THAT'S GOOD. SO IF YOU WANT US TO LOOK INTO THAT, UH, I THINK IT WOULD BE USEFUL. YEAH. I MEAN WE CAN, IF YOU, IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO MAKE THE CHANGES AND I, I, I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THAT PROBABLY ARE TOO, IN THEORY SHOULD BE A BIGGER LOT THAN THE R THREE AND THE SETBACK SHOULD GIVE YOU. BUT THERE MAY BE A REASONING BEHIND THAT AND WE CAN SEE IF WE CAN'T RUN THE CALCULATIONS, UH, IT'S NOT A HEAVY LIFT IF IT'S RIGHT. UH, WHAT WOULD BE WE NEED TO GET IT RIGHT. YOU NEED TO GET IT RIGHT, YOU KNOW. YEAH. WHAT WOULD BE INVOLVED IF WE WERE GONNA DO A, UH, POTENTIALLY, UH, SWEEPING REZONING, IF WE'RE SEEING LIKE LET'S SAY THERE'S A WHOLE CLUSTER OF ALL OF THESE HOMES OR ALL OF THESE LOTS THAT ARE FACING THIS ISSUE WITH THEIR LOT SIZE, COULD WE THEN LOOK AT ALL OF 'EM AND SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, YOU'RE BETTER SUITED TO BE R THREE ACROSS THE BOARD AND HAVE IT CONNECT. WELL, I THINK THAT'S WHY THE REASON WE'RE WE REDUCE THE SIZES ON THE LOTS AND REDUCE, YOU KNOW, THE SETBACKS OF CHANGE TO HELP THOSE. SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO THROUGH REZONINGS SO YOU DON'T HAVE SPOT REZONINGS OR TRY TO DO SPOT REZONINGS. DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? YES. BUT I'M NOT LOOKING AT IT AS COMING FROM THE PROPERTY OWNERS TO US, BUT RATHER THE OTHER DIRECTION. AND YOU KNOW, MAYBE THERE ARE, 'CAUSE THERE ARE AREAS OF R TWO AND R THREE RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER. RIGHT. AND MAYBE THERE'S AREAS OF R TWO THAT SHOULD BE R THREE AND MAYBE THAT'S SOME, UH, SOMETHING THAT WE'RE, THAT'S BEING SEEN IN THIS AS WELL. I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN OKAY. THAT'S IS, THAT'S SOMETHING WE REALLY BACK WHEN YOU'RE DOING A NEW COMPREHENSIVE PLAN TO PICK UP THAT SORT OF THING. POSSIBLY. I, WELL THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN KIND OF IDENTIFIED WHERE WE ARE DEFICIENCIES. MM-HMM . WITH THE LOTS AND THEY DID THE, DID THE CALCULATIONS AND TOOK THAT AND PUT IT TOGETHER FOR THIS REDUCING OF THE SIZE OF THE LOTS AND THE SETBACKS. BUT WE CAN REVISIT, SINCE WE HAVE IT IN-HOUSE NOW, WE COULD PROBABLY RUN SOME NUMBERS TO SEE IF WE CAN GET A BETTER UNDERSTANDING ON THESE LOTS. IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'D LIKE US TO TRY TO, I THINK THAT WOULD HELP. BUT I THINK WE CAN, IF YOU NEED TO MAKE ONE TO MAKE THE CHANGES NOW, AND WE COULD, YOU COULD ALWAYS SAY, OH, NOW UNDERSTAND WHY I WANT, THEY REDUCED IT FROM SIX, FROM EIGHT TO SIX. BUT WE COULD RE WE OKAY, WELL WE NEED MORE. I MEAN IF YOU WANT TO, UH, REDUCE THAT TO UH, 'CAUSE YOU SAY WHAT'S R THREE IS PROPOSED TO BE NOW IS UH, UH, ON THE HERE IT SAYS 7,500, WHICH DOESN'T COMMON SENSE TELLS US THAT'S NOT RIGHT. YEAH. AND YEAH. AND THEN THE H DUPLEX WOULD BE, UH, 3,750. MM-HMM . UM, SPLIT. SO WE HAVE A CHOICE. WE EITHER REJECT THIS AND PUT IT BACK TO THE WAY IT WAS FOR NOW, OR LEAVE IT AS IT IS, DON'T DO ANYTHING AND BRING IT BACK AFTER YOU HAD THE . WELL, NO, WHAT HE'S SAYING IS WE COULD, WE COULD MAKE THE FLIP IF WE WANTED TO PUT THIS TO THE 7,500, MAKE OUR THREE 6,000 AND AND THEN IF THE NUMBERS SHOW THAT IT THERE WAS SOMETHING REASONABLE, THEN WE CAN CHANGE IT BACK. OR WE'RE NOT, WE'RE NOT LIKELY TO FINISH THIS [00:55:01] TONIGHT. SO IF WE'RE GONNA BE DOING IT AGAIN, THE NEXT TIME WE HAVE A WORK SESSION, WE'LL HAVE THE NEW INFORMATION. SO WE COULD JUST KIND OF BRACKET THIS OR YOU WANT WE COULD SKIP THIS FOR TIME BEING. THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S RIGHT. GIVE TO COME BACK, GET THE INFORMATION. WE CAN GET AND WE WOULD HAVE THE WORK SESSION. YOU, YOU WANNA HAVE THE WORK SESSION AFTER OUR PUBLIC HEARING THIS MONTH. WE'RE VISITING THAT IN TWO WEEKS. IT IS LIKE A MONTH IN BETWEEN. SO LOOK AT LOOK AT THAT AGAIN. 'CAUSE 'CAUSE WHAT I'M LEANING TOWARD WHAT THEY'RE SAYING IS LEAVING THIS NOT CHANGING, LEAVE IT THE HIGHER DENSITY AND LEAVING OUR THREE, I JUST TALK ABOUT IT WHEN WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, NEXT, NEXT TWO WEEKS INSTEAD OF FLIPPING 'EM. 'CAUSE NOW WE'RE ARBITRARILY FLIPPING THIS. OH, IT'S NOT ARBITRARY. OUR THREE IS SUPPOSED BE MORE INTENSE THAN R TWO ISN'T. NO, NO. I'M, WE, WE WERE DOING THAT BUT WITH NO KNOWLEDGE WHY IT IS THE WAY IT'S RIGHT. NO, WE, WE'VE, WE'VE ESTABLISHED WE WILL HAVE THE INFORMATION. SO I WOULD, I WOULD JUST, FOR RIGHT NOW, I JUST REJECT THE CHANGE. I WOULDN'T CHANGE ANYTHING. ADD WAIT TO JUST, JUST DEFER IT SO YOU YEAH, WE CAN, YEAH, THAT'D PROBABLY BE SUITABLE IF WE JUST LEAVE IT AS IS THEN REVISIT THIS AND REVISIT, REVISIT UNTIL WE MORE DATA. OKAY. YEAH. I'LL JUST TAKE A COMMENT ON HERE. YEAH. OKAY. OKAY. AND LET'S MOVE ON. GREAT. SO DO YOU WANT US JUST MOVE STRAIGHT TO SETBACK OR SETBACKS OR WELL, NO SETBACKS. WELL THEY, ONE THING I DID DO, I JUST STUCK THIS TABLE IN HERE. REMEMBER THAT, THAT IT WAS SO CONFUSING. SUCH A BEAUTIFUL TABLE. MUCH. YES. OKAY. JUST KEEP 'EM ALL BECAUSE WE HAD THE BIG DISCUSSION AND JOHN EXPLAINED. OKAY. AND ALL THIS, THE FRONTAGE AND THAT. WE DON'T NEED THAT. YEAH. JUST SCROLL THROUGH THE REST OF THE TAPE. SO THAT'S JUST MORE EDU. ALRIGHT. HEIGHT THOUGH. WE COULD TOUCH ON IF THERE'S ANYTHING THAT WE NEED TO YEAH, WE CAN ABOUT HEIGHT HIT WITH THIS. I DON'T THINK SO PERSONALLY. BUILT A TABLE IN THERE. JUST HELP FOR THAT HELP. I DIDN'T TAKE ANY OF THE TEXT AWAY. I ADDED THE TABLE. YES, THAT'S HELPFUL. ALL RIGHT. CORNER LOTS. THIS IS GONNA BE THE SAME THING. WE CAN'T LOOK AT THOSE UNTIL WE UNDERSTAND THOSE, UH, THOUGHT SIZES. I WOULD THINK. YEAH. OH MY GOSH, WE'RE ALREADY IN OUR FEET. ALRIGHT. UM, LIMITED TO MEDIUM. MEDIUM TO HIGH DENSITY CONCENTRATION IS GOOD. IT'S FUNNY IN THE STATEMENT OF INTENT, WE SAY MULTIFAMILY DWELLINGS, RIGHT? MM-HMM . BUT IF WE COME DOWN HERE TO SPECIAL USE, PROBABLY, I'LL SCROLL BACK UP IN A SECOND. DON'T WORRY. YEAH. IT SAYS APARTMENTS. YEAH. SO SHOULD WE JUST GO OUT, I WOULD LIKE TO PROPOSE THAT WE JUST FLIP THAT SAYING MULTIFAMILY THERE APARTMENTS. DO WE EVEN, I DON'T KNOW IF WE EVEN HAVE A DEFINITION FOR APARTMENTS. SHOULD IT JUST BE A MULTIFAMILY OR JUST PUT MULTIFAMILY UNITS AND APARTMENTS OR JUST WE HAVE, WE HAVE AN APARTMENT DEFINITION SURPRISES FOR APARTMENTS SOMEWHERE IN YEP. UH, YES. WE HAVE AN APARTMENT DEVELOPMENT AND APARTMENT HOUSE. APARTMENT HOUSES IS WHAT? APARTMENT HOUSES. THAT'S RIGHT. SO WE DO HAVE AN APARTMENT. IT'S A MULTIFAMILY FAMILY STRUCTURE. . OKAY. SO IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE THEN TO SAY APARTMENTS OR MULTIFAMILY? YEAH. APARTMENT HOUSES. APARTMENT HOUSES. MULTIFAMILY APARTMENT AND APARTMENT HOUSES. YEAH. ADDITION. IS IT DWELLING OR UNITS? UH, A MULTIFAMILY STRUCTURE. NO, MULTI FOR A MULTIFAMILY. OH, SORRY. DWELLING UNITS. OKAY. YEAH. OKAY. GOOD. AND HOW DOES THIS LOOK TO EVERYBODY? APARTMENT? WHAT, WHAT'S THE WORD? APARTMENT STRUCTURE, APARTMENT, UNITS, HOUSE, APARTMENT. HOUSE. HOUSE. WELL, APARTMENT. APARTMENT. WE DEFINE APARTMENT HOUSE. UM, AS I RECALL, WHAT'S UNIQUE, UH, IS YOU COULD HAVE LESS THAN THE REQUIRED SQUARE FOOT SQUARE FOOTAGE FOR A DWELLING UNIT IN AN APARTMENT HOUSE. WELL, WE'LL SEE. THAT'S FOR SOME REASON I'M REMEMBERING 400 AND SOMETHING. YEAH. WELL THAT'S WHERE WE PROBABLY NEED TO LOOK AT THE DEFINITIONS BECAUSE THE APARTMENT HOUSE GOES ON EACH IN AN INDIVIDUAL DWELLING UNIT. OKAY. UH, THE PROBLEM IS IF YOU LOOK AT THAT JUST BY THAT, WE DEFINE DWELLING UNIT AS CONTAINING NOT LESS THAN 600. OKAY. 20 SQUARE FEET. YEAH. RIGHT. HOWEVER, WHEN WE GET INTO THE UH, UH, COMMERCIAL DISTRICT WHERE WE DO ALLOW CONVERSION OF BUILDINGS INTO A GREATER NUMBER OF DWELLING UNITS, AGAIN, [01:00:01] UM, THE SIZE IS NOT 600. IN THAT CASE, THE DEFINITION IS SHOULD IT BE 600 UNLESS OTHERWISE ENUMERATED. WE, WE, WE WOULD, WE HAVE TO, UH, LOOK ON THOSE DEFINITIONS A LITTLE BIT BETTER, ESPECIALLY FOR THE RESIDENTIAL ONES. UM, SO ALSO THE OTHER THING TO NOTE HERE IS THAT FIRST TOWNHOUSES WE SAY ON SITES OVER ONE ACRE AS SET FORTH IN SO AND SO FORTH. SO YEAH. HERE IS, SO THEN IT SAYS THE MINIMUM AVERAGE UNIT, THIS IS IN C TWO, THIS IS IN C TWO. SO IT DOESN'T SAY DWELLING UNIT. IT SAYS UNIT, UH, CONTAINING DWELLING SHALL BE 300 SQUARE FEET. SO THAT'S A STUDIO. RIGHT. BUT I MEAN, IF TO ME, IF WE WE'RE GOING TO DEFINE A DWELLING UNIT, NO, BE 600, SOMEHOW YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO DIFFERENTIATE THE DWELLING UNIT IN THE APARTMENT HOUSE AND NOT REFER TO IT AS A DWELLING UNIT. 'CAUSE WE DEFINE DWELLING UNIT. WELL, COULD THAT NOT JUST BE SOLVED BY ADDING TO THE DWELLING UNIT DEFINITION UNLESS OTHERWISE ENUMERATED AND THEN THE EXCEPTIONS BILL THEMSELVES. WE, BECAUSE THAT, UH, YEAH. WE, WE NEED, SOMEHOW WE NEED TO TACKLE THAT ISSUE. RIGHT. OKAY. YEAH. SO WHAT, WHAT'S THE, WHAT'S THE TASK MODIFYING? NO, WE, WE, WE DEFINED THAT WE HAVE UH, UM, UM, APARTMENT HOUSE. WE DO HAVE THAT. WE, WE DO HAVE THAT DEFINITION OF APARTMENT HOUSE, RIGHT? YES. CAN YOU READ THAT? OR A BEGINNING OF IT? UM, SORRY. OKAY. A MULTI-FAMILY STRUCTURE ORIGINALLY INTENDED ARRANGE OR DESIGNED TO BE OCCUPIED BY THREE OR MORE FAMILIES EACH IN AN INDIVIDUAL DWELLING UNIT. OKAY. SO THERE, THAT GIVES US THE PART OF THE DEFINITION THAT HAS DWELLING UNITS. THEN WE DEFINE DWELLING UNIT IN THE DEFINITION. THAT'S THE DEFINITION WHERE IT HAS TO BE 600. THEN WHEN YOU GO TO THE CONVERSION OR THESE APARTMENT HOUSES CREATING THEM, THEN YOU DON'T, OUR DEFINITION IS A MINIMUM AVERAGE UNIT SIZE DUE RURAL AREA SHALL NOT BE CONTAINING DWELLING SHALL BE 300 SQUARE FOOT THE MINIMUM. RIGHT. SO, BUT CAN IT, CAN'T WE JUST THAT BE KIND OF UNIVERSALLY ADDRESSED BY ADDING UNLESS OTHER OTHERWISE ENUMERATED TO THE, WELL WE'LL HAVE, WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO TACKLE THAT IN THE C TWO OR MY OPINION IS YOU HAVE TO TACKLE THAT IN THE ORIGINAL DEFINITION OR YOU GONNA HAVE TO WELL, WE HAVE TO DEVELOP A DEFINITION OR WITH THE DEFINITION FOR, 'CAUSE IF YOU DEFINE, WE NAME IT A DWELLING UNIT IN THE APARTMENT, THEN THAT REFERS TO THE DEFINITION OF DWELLING UNIT, WHICH IS 600. AND IT CONTRADICTS WHAT THE APARTMENT HOUSE ALLOWS. AND IT DOESN'T CALL A DWELLING UNIT, IT JUST CALLS IT A UNIT. I I WAS JUST THINKING THAT IF WE WENT TO THE ORIGINAL DEFINITION OF A DWELLING UNIT MM-HMM . IT'S 600 FEET OR, UM, UNLESS OTHERWISE ENUMERATED, THAT WON'T ADDRESS THOSE VARIATIONS. IT SEEMS LIKE IT WOULD BECAUSE IT, IT ALLOWS FOR, YOU HAVE ANOTHER UNIT, WHICH IS SOMETHING, AND THE DEFINITION ALLOWS FOR YOU TO BE LESS THAN THAT. 'CAUSE IT'S ENUMERATED IN C TWO AS SUCH. MM-HMM . IT SEEMS LIKE THAT WOULD FIX IT IF WE WROTE THAT. WOULD IT ONLY APPLY IN WE ARE NO, THIS WOULD BE THE UNIVERSAL DEFINITIONS. WE'RE NOT IN OUR ANYMORE TALKING ABOUT THE UNIVERSAL, UNIVERSAL DEFINITIONS YEAH. THAT WAY NO, I THINK, I THINK THAT'S A GOOD SOLUTION. LIKE IT SEEMS TO BE LIKE THE GOOD RESISTANCE IS ALL I WAS LOOKING FOR. . OKAY. YEAH. MODIFIED DEFINITION FOR, LET'S, LET'S TALK ABOUT IT A LITTLE LONGER. OKAY. LET'S TALK ANYWAY. MODIFIED DEFINITION FOR LIKE FOR DWELLING UNIT, UNIT DWELLING UNIT TO ADD THE PHRASE, UNLESS OTHERWISE ENUMERATED AT THE END. RIGHT? SO WHEN YOU DID THE A DUS, YOU'RE RECENTLY YEAH. YOU KNOW, WE DEFINED DWELLING UNIT. RIGHT. AND THAT WAS A 600, THAT'S WHY WE KEEP THAT IN LINE WITH THE DEFINITION OF 600. AND [01:05:01] THEN, BUT YES, IT WAS 500. NOW WE'RE PUTTING A WAY TO MAKE AN EXCEPTION TO THAT, RIGHT. IN THE C TWO. SO WE HAD A ACCESSORY DWELLING UNIT WAS 500, A DWELLING UNIT WAS 600. I KNOW. AND A UNIT IN APARTMENT WAS 400. SO WE NEED TO GET, YOU KNOW, BUT WE, WE'VE SOLVED THAT WITH THE A DU AND THE DWELLING UNIT. NOW, NOW WE NEED TO DO IT. FIND A WAY TO SOLVE, THE OTHER POTENTIAL SOLUTION WOULD BE TO HAVE APARTMENT UNIT BE ITS OWN DEFINITION. AND THEN THAT ONE COULD BE AS SMALL AS 300 OR WHATEVER WE WANT IT TO BE. THAT WOULD BE, THAT WOULD BE ANOTHER WAY OF HANDLING IT. AND THAT MIGHT MAKE IT A LITTLE BIT SIMPLER OR MORE STRAIGHTFORWARD IN TERMS OF, I LIKE, I LIKE THAT. YEAH. I, I AGREE WITH THAT BECAUSE I THINK OKAY. OKAY. SAY THAT WHEN YOU DWELL, WHEN YOU DO WITH THE ZONING ORDINANCE, DEPARTMENT UNIT DEPARTMENT, THE DEFINITIONS IS, IS THE FOUNDATION. SO WHENEVER IT'S MENTIONED, YOU ALWAYS, WE ALWAYS TRY TO LOOK FOR WORDS TO FIND THAT. SO YOU ELIMINATE THAT? NO, THAT IS, THAT IS, THAT IS YOU END UP GOING BACK AND FORTH AND WHAT DOES IT SAY HERE VERSUS THERE? AND THERE'S A WHOLE POINT OF LOOKING AT DEFINITIONS OF THE FIRST, RIGHT? SO IF WE DEFINE WHAT DO WE WANT THE DEFINITION OF APARTMENT UNIT TO BE, UH, TBD, WE HAVE THE BOOK. WE CAN . YEAH. AND WE DO HAVE IT, WE HAVE IT DEFINED IN THE C TWO, SO WE CAN, RIGHT. WE'LL PULL THAT. DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING HERE. WE'RE JUST MAKING A NOTE TO DEFINE APARTMENT AND THE DEFINITIONS. WE NEED TO MAKE AN APARTMENT. SO, AND WE'LL HAVE TO TACKLE THAT IN THE C TWO, WHERE WHEN WE GET TO THAT, WE GET THAT. SO WE'RE GONNA HAVE A DEFINITION FOR APARTMENT DEVELOPMENT, APARTMENT, HOUSE, AND THEN APARTMENT UNIT. THAT MAKES SENSE. IT DOES. KIND OF FEELS LIKE IT GOES MM-HMM . OKAY. SO WITH THAT IN MIND, DO WE WANNA TOUCH THAT THE, THE APARTMENTS ARE LISTED HERE AS SPECIAL, UNDER SPECIAL USE FOR R THREE. SHOULD WE JUST MIX THAT AND HAVE MULTI-FAMILY DWELLING UNITS IF WE'RE GONNA BE NOW DEFINING APARTMENTS UNITS AND IT EXCLUDE THAT? NO. WELL, THEY'RE BOTH, NOW THEY'RE GONNA BE DIFFERENT THINGS. SO WE WOULD BE ALLOWING THEM BOTH. RIGHT. OKAY. I WOULD, NO, I, WE WANT TO LEAVE THAT. OKAY. AND, AND WOULD WE JUST CALL IT APARTMENTS OR WOULD WE CALL IT APARTMENT HOUSE? WE'LL CALL IT APARTMENT HOUSE. WOULD THAT BE CONFUSING? WHAT IS THE NEW DEFINITION THAT IT CALL BE CALLED? WE CALL IT APARTMENT HOUSE. WELL, THERE, THERE IS APARTMENT, HOUSE. AN EXISTING DEFINITION. OKAY. LEMME SEE THAT. IM SORRY. NO, NO, NO, IT'S FINE. READ IT AGAIN. MULTI-FAMILY STRUCTURE, ORIGINALLY INTENDED A RANGE OR DESIGNED TO BE OCCUPIED BY THREE OR MORE FAMILIES. EACH INDIVIDUAL DWELLING UNIT, LIVING INDEPENDENTLY OF EACH OTHER. THE NUMBER OF FAMILIES PERMANENT RESIDENCE SHALL NOT EXCEED THE NUMBER OF DWELLING UNITS PROVIDED ENTRANCE WAYS THROUGH THE STRUCTURE OF THE UNITS MAY BE EITHER COMMON OR SEPARATE. EACH LOT ON WHICH THE BUILDING IS LOCATED SHALL BE HELD IN SINGLE OWNERSHIP, EVEN THOUGH THE INDIVIDUAL UNITS MAY BE SOLD IN ACCORDANCE WITH THIS CHAPTER. SUCH TERM SHALL NOT INCLUDE ROW HOUSE OR TOWNHOUSE. EACH APARTMENT UNIT OCCUPIED SPACE ON MORE THAN ONE SOURCE. SO YES, APARTMENT HOUSE, WE PROBABLY SHOULD SAY APARTMENT HOUSE. YEAH. AND THEN I THINK WE'LL HAVE TO UPDATE THE DEFINITION OF JUST SAY APARTMENT UNIT AS OPPOSED TO DWELLING. YEAH. OKAY. CONNIE, YOU GOT ALL THAT DOWN THERE TOO. APARTMENT ADD DEFINITION FOR APARTMENT UNIT. THAT'S WHAT IT COMES OUT TO. YEAH. MM-HMM . UM, OKAY. UH, SO IN R TWO FOR TOWN HOMES, WE DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING ABOUT IT BEING OFF SITE OVER ONE ACRE. PERSONALLY. BIG FAN WOULD LOVE TO SEE THAT IN OUR TWO. MIGHT BE SOMETHING WE'RE LOOKING AT WHAT THOSE, WHAT THE LAW ISSUES ARE TOO. COULD TIE RIGHT IN WITH THAT DISCUSSION. BUT SO, UH, RIGHT. SO CURRENTLY TOWNHOUSES ARE PERMITTED BY, RIGHT? IT SHOULD. IF YOU DO IT BY RIGHT THERE, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN 20,000. THIS IS BY SPECIAL USE. THIS IS OUR THREE USE. SPECIAL USE BY, RIGHT. UH, LET'S SEE. AH, YEAH, SO, SO UP TO ONE ACRE, RIGHT? SO BY W RIGHT, YOU THERE YOU HAVE, IN THE R THREE, YOU HAD TO HAVE A MINIMUM OF 20,000 SQUARE FOOT OF THE LOT TO GET STARTED. MM-HMM . THEN IT'S ABOUT RIGHT FROM 20,000 UP TO AN ACRE. IF YOU WANT MORE THAN AN ACRE, YOU GOTTA GET A SPECIAL USE. YES. THEN NEVERMIND. WELL, IF WE GO TO SPECIAL USE PERMIT MM-HMM . UH, IF YOU HAVE OVER AN ACRE, UM, IT'S A SPECIAL USE PERMIT AND SET FORTH IN DIVISION 9.6, THAT KICKS IN A LOT OF LANDSCAPING, UH, PORTION AND OPEN SPACE, PART OF THE APAR OF THE TOWNHOUSE SECTION. SO THAT'S THE REASONING BEHIND THAT. THOSE OVER ONE ACRE, THERE ARE MORE, UM, LANDSCAPING AND OPEN SPACE ARE REQUIRED WITH THOSE OVER ONE ACRE. DOES THAT KIND OF HELP [01:10:01] EVERYBODY? I'M FINE. OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE IN HERE THAT WE WANTED TO TOUCH ON BEFORE MOVING ON? UM, JUST AS A PRACTICAL QUESTION, AND I COULD LOOK INTO THIS, BUT ALL OF THOSE THINGS THAT WE HAVE, FIRE AND RESCUE SQUAD, POLICE STATIONS, ART GALLERIES, DO YOU NEED TO HAVE DEFINITIONS FOR ALL OF THOSE? I MEAN, EVEN IF ABOVE, LIKE, I MEAN, I KNOW WE HAVE NURSING HOMES, BUT I WAS READING THROUGH SOME OF THESE LISTS AND I WAS LIKE, I DON'T KNOW THAT WE HAVE DEFINITIONS FOR EVERYTHING. IS THAT OUR GOAL? TO HAVE DEFINITIONS FOR EVERYTHING? ARE WE GONNA HAVE A DEFINITION FOR DEFINITION ? NO, LET'S DO IT. I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, I MEAN, I MEAN, YEAH, JUST, JUST ASKING. OH, YEAH. I HAVE NO OPINION. DO WE NEED ONE? GEORGE? SHE WOULD NEED HELP. I'M SORRY, I WAS LOOKING, I WAS LOOKING AT THE VIRGINIA CONDOMINIUM ACT. YEAH, . SO IF THE QUESTION REALLY IS, IF THERE'S A A, A TERM FOR AN ORGANIZATION OR A, UH, A STRUCTURE OR ANYTHING, SHOULD EVERY TERM BE PUT IN DEFINITION SUCH AS THE GO FIRE AND RESCUE SQUAD AND POLICE STATION, A PUBLIC LIBRARY DO DOES, OR IS THERE SOMETHING THAT SAYS, WELL, THAT'S A COMMON KNOWN ITEM. IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE DEFINED SEPARATELY. I'M SORRY. SORRY, GEORGE. I, I, GEORGE ATTENTION, I THINK GEORGE WOULD SAY EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE DEFINED SHOULD BE DEFINED. BUT WE'RE GOING DOWN A RABBIT HOLE. THE QUESTION THEY HAVE, UH, FIRE STATIONS, POLICE STATE, SHOULD THEY CONDITIONS FOR EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THINGS. SOME THINGS ARE SO COMMONLY UNDERSTOOD THAT YOU DON'T NEED IT. YEAH. THAT, THAT'S KIND OF WHY I, BECAUSE WE COULD REALLY GET OFF, OFF THE, OKAY. ALL RIGHT. I MEAN, IF, BUT THERE ARE, IF A COMMON USAGE, IF THERE IS A COMMON USAGE THAT'S NOT, YEAH. LET, LET'S ASK OR LET'S NOT GO DOWN TO GO TO WEBSTER'S AND IT'S, YEAH. OKAY. SO THE THE POINT OF DEFINING THINGS IS TO ELIMINATE AMBIGUITY. I HAVE TO TACKLE THAT WHEN WE GET TO THE SEAT DISTRICT AFTER WE GET OUT OF RESIDENTIAL, BECAUSE SOME AMBIGUITY STUFF UPDATING, UH, WE NEED YOU HAVE THE SEAT. YES. YOU WANNA JUST SAY LIBRARIES AND NOT LIMITED THE PUBLIC OBLIGATION. UH, LET'S SEE. OR IS IT PRIVATE? ORGANIZATIONAL, PRIVATE LIBRARY. WOULD YOU, WOULD THAT ONE TO BE, HOW ABOUT JUST LIBRARIES? WELL, I'M JUST SAYING, WOULD WOULD PRIVATE LIBRARY BE OKAY? HERE WOULD BE THE, YOU'RE SAYING WOULD IT BE AN APPROPRIATE USE? WOULD IT BE AN APPROPRIATE USE IN HERE? A PRIVATE LIBRARY? RIGHT. SO YOU'RE ASKING FOR A PRIVATE LIBRARY. HOW WOULD IT BE DIFFERENT? A PUBLIC LIBRARY IN TERMS OF, 'CAUSE IT LIMITED, LIMITED USE OF A PRIVATE LIBRARY. I'M ONLY TO ALLOW BOB AND ED TO COME AND PUBLIC. EVERYBODY CAN COME IN. PRIVATE LIBRARY WOULD GENERATE MORE TRAFFIC IN A RESIDENTIAL SETTING. PRIVATE, YOU COULD HAVE MORE. WELL, YOU COULD HAVE A PRIVATE, YOU'RE SAYING YOU COULD HAVE A PRIVATE LIBRARY OUT OF EVERY HOME. NO, WE'RE TALKING HERE ABOUT SPECIAL PURPOSE. UH, THAT WASN'T WAIT, SCROLL. WHERE WE HAVE LIBRARY WASN'T, SO THIS IS UNDER SPECIAL USE PERMIT. WE HAVE PUBLIC LIBRARIES BY SPECIAL USE PERMIT AND THE R THREE. SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS A PRIVATE WELL, THE THING IS, IF I HAVE A FEW ROOMS IN MY HOUSE THAT I HAVE A TON OF BOOKS IN THAT COUNTS AS A, AS A PRIVATE LIBRARY. AND ONLY IF I OTHER PEOPLE EAT AND OUT OF IT. BUT I THINKING THEN THAT'S HOW PEOPLE COME TO MY HOUSE. SCHOOL MIGHT WANNA PUT UP A BUILDING. THERE'S A LIBRARY. WELL, THEN THAT'S JUST A LIBRARY ON SCHOOL GROUNDS. I MEAN, EVERY, EVERY SCHOOL HAS, MAYBE THEY DON'T HAVE SOMEBODY DONATES A HOUSE TO THEM AND THEY, NOTHING I FEEL LIKE NEED TO, I'M NOT AGAINST, I THINK WE NEED PERFORMANCE STANDARDS IN THAT CASE. RIGHT. WHAT? WELL, WHY CAN WE JUST SAY LIBRARIES? EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT A LIBRARY IS, RIGHT? IT'S NO BIG DEAL. I MEAN, I, I DON'T, I DON'T SEE WHY IT'S A PROBLEM, REALLY. BUT, UM, I TEND TO, WHEN WE START TALKING LIBRARIES, WE, WHEN YOU SAY PUBLIC LIBRARIES, PEOPLE, BOOKS COME TO MIND FOR THE MOST PART. BUT A LIBRARY REALLY COULD BE OTHER THINGS. A LIBRARY OF ITEMS AND NOT JUST BOOKS, BUT, UM, I, I TEND TO LEAVE ALONE PERSONALLY. BUT I MEAN, WELL, IT IMPLIES PUBLIC IMPLIES FUNDING [01:15:01] THAT OH NO. THERE'S PART PRIVATELY FUNDED, BUT OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. IS THAT, WHAT'S THE PUBLIC, WHAT'S THE DEFINITION OF PUBLIC? DOES IT MEAN OPEN TO THE PUBLIC OR FUNDED BY THE PUBLIC? YEAH, OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. OKAY. BECAUSE IN A WAY, WE HAVE THAT RIGHT NOW WITH LIBRARY IN TOWN. IT'S NOT , IT'S IT'S PUBLIC LIBRARY, BUT IT'S BEING PRIVATELY FUNDED RIGHT NOW. SO MEANS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. YEAH. ALL RIGHT. WELL THEN LEAVE IT IF IT MEANS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. DOESN'T IMPLY FUNDING. OKAY. UM, CEMETERIES, LODGING, HOUSES, CEMETERIES. WHEN GOT 20,000 SQUARE FEET OR LESS , UH, MODEL HOMES. IT'S ESSENTIALLY, IT'S THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER. UM, NOW WE, SO THIS IS WHERE I'M SAYING THIS ONE IS 75, AND THAT'S WHY IT WAS WE'LL COME BACK TO THAT. WE'LL COME BACK TO THAT. COME BACK TO THAT. UM, ALL RIGHT. SAME THING WITH SETBACKS. WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO JUST CIRCLE BACK TO ALL OF THOSE. OKAY. WE'RE GONNA SPEED THROUGH THIS. AND ANOTHER THING THAT BY LOOKING AT THESE TWO, R TWO AND R THREE AND ALL THE SETBACKS, ANOTHER WAY, UH, IF, IF THIS TURNS INTO JUST A TOTAL RABBIT HOLE, BECAUSE ALL THE DIFFERENT LOTS, MAYBE THERE'S ANOTHER WAY YOU COULD ADD A CATEGORY FOR THE EXCLUSION OF THOSE LOTS THAT DON'T FIT WHAT HAVING TO DO WITH ZONING ADD EXCEPTIONS IN, INTO THE CODE. SO THOSE THINGS WOULD BE RATHER THAN BLANKET STATEMENTS THAT, THAT GO ALONG WITH IT. MAYBE THAT'S A WAY JUST, JUST, I'M JUST THROWING THAT OUT THERE. 'CAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE DATA IS YET OF, OF ALL THOSE LOTS. BUT A ADDING, UM, PERFORMANCE STANDARDS TO ALLOW EXCEPTIONS IN CASE, RATHER THAN TRYING TO PUT A PERFORMANCE STANDARD FOR ALL, IT MIGHT, MIGHT BE THE WAY THAT HAS TO, WHEN YOU'RE DOING THE INVESTIGATION. I, I WOULD JUST RECOMMEND KEEPING THAT IN MIND. OKAY. OKAY. IF YOU WANT, YOU CAN CALL ME. I'LL HELP YOU BEING MORE CONFUSED. OKAY. . ANYWAY. OKAY. YEAH. UM, HAPPEN. SO IF I COULD BE INDULGED JUST ONE MORE, SORRY. YES. ON CONDOMINIUM ONE LINE ONE, RATHER THAN GET BACK TO STAFF AND THE COMMISSION. SO, UH, VIRGINIA CONDOMINIUM ACT, UM, THE SECTION REGARDING LOCAL ORDINANCES, NO ZONING OR OTHER LAND USE ORDINANCE SHALL PROHIBIT CONDOMINIUM SOLELY ON THE BASIS OF THE FORM OF OWNERSHIP. NOR SHALL ANY CONDOMINIUM BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY BY ANY ZONING OR OTHER LAND USE ORDINANCE THAT WOULD PERMIT A PHYSICALLY, PHYSICALLY IDENTICAL PROJECT OR DEVELOPMENT UNDER A DIFFERENT FORM OF OWNERSHIP. UM, AND THEN IT'S, IT DOES PROVIDE FOR ONE EXCEPTION, WHICH IT REFERS TO, UH, UH, SUBSECTION E AND WHAT SUBSECTION E ADDRESSES IS NON-CONFORMITY. THAT IF THE, THE PROPOSED CONVERSION RELATES TO NOT A NON-CONFORMING, CURRENTLY NON-CONFORMING USE, THAT THE ZONING ORDINANCE CAN REQUIRE AN SUP, WHETHER THAT'S SOMETHING TO CONSIDER PUTTING IN THE ZONING ORDINANCE. UH, BUT THAT REPHRASE TO OFFICE CONDOMINIUMS AS WELL AS RESIDENTIAL. UM, WELL, RIGHT. LOOK, SO E SAYS LOCALITIES MAY PROVIDE BY ORDINANCE THAT THE DECLARANT OF A PROPOSED, UH, CONVERSION CONDOMINIUM THAT DOES NOT CONFORM TO THE ZONING LAND USE AND SITE PLAN REGULATIONS OF THE RESPECTIVE LOCALITY IN WHICH THE PROPERTY IS LOCATED SHALL SECURE A SPECIAL USE PERMIT, A SPECIAL EXCEPTION, OR A VARIANCE AS THE CASE MAY BE PRIOR TO SUCH PROPERTIES BECOMING A CONVERSION CONDOMINIUM. BUT THEN IT GOES ON TO SAY, UH, THE LOCALITY SHALL NOT UNREASONABLY DELAY. UH, ANYWAY, IT'S, IT'S A VERY LIMITED SITUATION. UH, IT'S NOT CLEAR TO ME AT ALL WHAT TO PUT IN TO ADDRESS WHAT YOU JUST SAID. RIGHT. , IT'S, AND IT'S, AND IT'S MADE BY ORDINANCE OR SO IS IT SO YOU CAN, IT CAN JUST, THE ORDINANCE CAN JUST SIMPLY BE SILENT AS IT AS IT IS NOW. AS IT IS NOW. OKAY. FOR, FOR THE, FOR THE SAKE OF THE CONDOM, FOR THE RATIONALE THAT I EXPLAINED, WHICH IS IT GOES TO OWNERSHIP. ALRIGHT. SO WE DON'T NEED TO DEFINE IT, IS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. CONDOMINIUMS. IT'S, IT'S COMMISSION'S CHOICE. OH, OKAY. THE, THE ONLY REASON TO [01:20:01] IS THE ONE I JUST OUTLINED, WHICH IS, UM, IF YOU HAVE NON-CONFORMING SITUATION, YOU CAN, UH, YOU CAN REQUIRE THE OWNER TO, UM, SECURE A SPECIAL USE PERMIT TO PUT CONDOMS ON OR TO HAVE TO HAVE OWNERSHIP, TO HAVE THE CONVERSION TO, TO A CONDOMINIUM TYPE OWNERSHIP. SO IF, IF SOMEBODY, AND I ASSUME THAT I, I I'M ASSUMING THAT'S SO THAT THE PROSPECTIVE BUYERS, I GUESS ARE PUT ON NOTICE THAT, THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT, THAT THE STRUCTURE IS NONCONFORMING. I'M SPEC, I'M JUST SPECULATING. WE HAVE VERY GOOD WILLING TO TOWN. IT MIGHT EVEN, BUT I'M THINKING OF GREAT BIG OLD HOUSES THAT SOMEBODY OWNER MIGHT SAY, WELL, LET ME JUST BREAK THIS UP AND SELL IT AS FOUR UNITS, YOU KNOW, A BIG OLD OR SOMETHING. I GUESS, LET ME READ ON, SO THE LOCAL AUTHORITY SHALL GRANT A REQUEST FOR SPECIAL USE, SPECIAL EXCEPTION VARIANCE, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. IF THE APPLICANT CAN DEMONSTRATE TO THE REASONABLE SATISFACTION OF THE LOCAL AUTHORITY THAT THE NONCONFORMITIES ARE NOT LIKELY TO BE ADVERSELY AFFECTED BY THE CONVERSION ALL, OH BOY. THAT DOES, THAT'S, THAT'S HELPFUL. THAT . SO IT'S, SO IT'S A PRETTY LOW BAR FOR THE, FOR THE APPLICANT. SOUNDS WE'RE BETTER OFF ANYWAY. I JUST WANTED TO, YOU KNOW, THAT BUT BAD. NO, THAT'S TOTALLY, COMPLETELY, TOTALLY DEAD. OKAY. 'CAUSE THAT'S, THAT'S A COMMON, UH, MISCONCEPTION THAT, UH, THAT, THAT IT'S A LAND THAT CONDOMINIUMS ARE A LAND USE ISSUE. RIGHT. WE HAD SOME INQUIRE, WE HAD SOME, UM, YEAH, FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM, I GUESS APARTMENT BUILDINGS THAT THE OWNER WANTED TO DO CONDOS. MM-HMM . THE BEST RESPONSE THERE IS TO SUGGEST THEY TALK TO A LAWYER. RIGHT. SO THEN WE REFER THEM TO THE CONDOMINIUM ACT THAT THEY, YOU KNOW, WE, WE CAN'T DENY THEM DOING THAT OR IT'S NOT A LAND USE. RIGHT. RIGHT. DID THEY EVER GO WITH THE ONLY, THE ONLY POTENTIAL EXCEPTION AGAIN, IS IF IT'S NOT CONFORM, THE TOWN CHOSE TO PUT SOMETHING IN THE ZONING ORDINANCE REQUIRING A SPECIAL USE PERMIT. IN THE CASE OF A NON-CONFORMING, EXISTING NON-CONFORMING STRUCTURE, WHICH IS REALLY NON WELL TIRES UP THE NON IN THAT SITUATION, UH, CONFORMING STRUCTURE OR USE, SO POTENTIALLY APARTMENTS, THEY WANT TO TURN INTO CONDOS IN A CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCE. I MEAN, EVEN THE DEFINITION OF A APART WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT APARTMENTS, IT MENTIONS, YOU KNOW, IT COULD BE VIA OWNERSHIP. YEAH. BUT THAT AGAIN, IT'S STILL, STILL, YEAH. THERE'S AN EXISTING APARTMENT HOUSE, FOR INSTANCE. YEAH. AND IT'S NOT IN THE RIGHT ZONE. YEAH. BUT IT PREEXISTS IT PREDATES THE ZONING ORDINANCE OR WHATEVER, OR PREDATES A CHANGE IN THE ZONING ORDINANCE. UH, CAUSING A NON-CONFORMITY WOULD BE A LEGAL NON-CONFORMITY, OTHERWISE KNOWN AS GRANDFATHERED. UM, UH, I LOST MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT. UM, THAT WOULD REQUIRE, THAT'S, THAT'S THE ONLY, HMM. THAT WOULD REQUIRE SPECIAL USE PERMIT IF, IF ONLY IF IT WAS PUT IN ORDINANCE IT LOOKING AT 40 YEARS AS AN EXISTING DATA CENTER WANTED TO CONVERT ITSELF INTO CONDOS. WELL, WE NEED TO GET OUT OF I TWO . WELL, IT WOULD BE A NON-CONFORMING USE, BUT MAYBE IF IT WAS THE ONLY THING IN THE I TWO RESIDENTIAL RESCUE ALLOWED I TWO YEAH, NO, THEY WOULD HAVE TO ZO IT'D BE A WHOLE OTHER THING. THEY'D HAVE TO REZONE IT AND THEN THEY COULD PUT APARTMENTS IN WHATEVER. TAKING THE LONG VIEW HERE. YEAH, NO, UH, SINCE WE'RE NOT DOING SETBACKS, WE CAN KIND OF, NOTHING LEFT IN IT EXCEPT FOR GOING TO P AND D, WHICH AS FAR AS I KNOW, ISN'T BEING SUGGESTED TO BE CHANGED. REALLY. THE P AND D? NOT REALLY. UM, ALL EVALUATION CRITERIA. UM, WE HAVE VARIOUS PERMITTED USES, WHICH ARE ALL THE SAME. WHAT'S THE ACREAGE REQUIREMENT? UH, SO THAT'S, THAT'LL BE A BIT, UM, INTERESTING THOUGH THAT THE RETIREMENT LIVING FACILITIES SPECIFIES HANDICAP ACCESSIBLE. DON'T ALL RETIREMENT FACILITIES NEED TO BE HANDICAP THESE DAYS? YEAH. YOU'RE NOT GONNA MOVE. YEAH. I MEAN, SHOULD WE JUST, DOES IT NEED TO BE, IS THIS SOMETHING WE FEEL LIKE IS IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN OR? [01:25:02] UM, I THINK THE ONLY THING I WOULD SAY, IF WE WERE GONNA KEEP IT IN, WE'D HAVE TO MAKE SURE IT'S THERE EVERYWHERE. I MEAN, ONLY WHERE IT, I DON'T KNOW. YEAH. ANYWHERE ELSE THAT WE REFERENCE RETIREMENT LIVING FACILITY, I THINK WE COULD TAKE IT OUT. BECAUSE THAT'S, I, AT THE SAME TIME I'M, HE, I DON'T WANT BE CAREFUL TAKING SOME OUT AND WE DON'T KNOW WHY IT'S THERE. RIGHT. I WOULD, I WOULD LEAVE IT. 'CAUSE IT'S HARMLESS. IT IS. IT'S HARMLESS. YEAH. OKAY. UM, ADDING AN ADU TO THAT MAKES SENSE. SAME, SAME THING. MM-HMM . OH GOSH. FOR A SECOND, MY EYES BETRAYED ME. AND I THOUGHT THAT SAID DATA CENTERS T BUT I ALMOST GOT IT IN BOY. OKAY. YEAH. UM, B AND BS ASSISTED LIVING, GAS STATIONS, ART GALLERIES, SPECIAL PURPOSE HOUSING, UM, WRITING. YEAH, THAT ONE OF COURSE. UM, THERE'S A, JUST A COUPLE LITTLE SUGGESTIVE HERE. I LIKE YOUR, SHE THAT'S GOOD. UH, THESE ARE SOME SUGGESTIVE CHANGES. ADDED ADDED IN BASED, BASED ON THE LANGUAGE. YEP. OKAY. YEP. HELPFUL. UM, APPROVAL CON PLAN IS, YEAH. ADVISORY AND NON-BINDING. UM, MAKES SENSE. AND THEN THIS, I MEAN, I'M GOING TO QUICKLY, IF YOU WANT ME TO NO, THIS, THIS IS, I CAN ALL GO GO FASTER. I HAD NO OTHER COMMENTS. YEAH. I READ THIS AD NAUSEUM. IT IS THOROUGH. YEAH. IT WAS VERY THOROUGH. MM-HMM . THERE WAS JUST SOME, A LITTLE BIT OF AMBIGUITY IN AT THE VERY BEGINNING. MM-HMM . PARKING REQUIREMENTS IS, SEE, UM, ARE WE GONNA GO AFTER PARKING IN TOWN SINCE, ARE WE GONNA TRY TO DO MORE WITH PARKING SINCE WHAT THE TOWN COUNCIL'S BEEN DOING WITH THAT? OR ARE WE GOING TO MORE WITH PARKING? OH, WE HAD SEVERAL THINGS GO THROUGH WITH THE REQUIREMENT FOR PARKING ON SPECIAL USE AND THEY WERE STRUCK DOWN. MM-HMM . ARE, ARE WE GOING TO TRY TO MAKE ANY CHANGES AS A RESULT OF THAT? UM, I THINK IT RELATED SPECIFICALLY TO SHORT TERM RENTALS. YEAH. IT WAS THE, THE CONCERN, IT WAS SHORT TERM RENTALS AND THERE WAS A, UM, UM, THERE WAS THE PARKING REQUIREMENT FOR THE, UM, GOSH, WHAT WAS IT CALLED? WAS THE VFW, IT WAS THE GROUP HOME. THEY TOOK AWAY THE PARKING REQUIREMENT FOR THAT AS WELL. OH, RIGHT. IT, SO I JUST, JUST WONDERED. THEY TOOK AWAY FROM THE B FW TOO. AND THE VFW THEY TOOK, TOOK AWAY THE PARKING REQUIREMENT FOR THAT AS WELL. SO THERE'S BEEN SEVERAL THAT, THAT, THAT WE JUST WANT TO LEAVE WITH THAT SET TO DISCRETION. TOWN COUNCIL, WHEN THEY COME WITH SPECIAL USE PERMITS, THEN THE CODE PROVIDES FOR SPECIAL EXCEPTION RELIEF FROM THE PARKING MEDICAL REQUIREMENT. NO, IT JUST DON'T, DON'T WANT TO SEND IT TO A KNOWING IT'S GONNA GET STRUCK DOWN. IS OUR, MY COMMENT WOULD BE THAT THE CODE IS, THE TOWN CODE IS THE LAW AND TOWN CODE IS COUNCIL'S CODE. YEAH. SO THEY WANT TO SEE US CHANGE IT. THEN I'LL JUST, I'LL JUST LEAVE IT THERE. OKAY. ALRIGHT. SO THAT, THAT WOULD BE ONE, ONE EXPLANATION. WE DID A PARKING STUDY A COUPLE YEARS AGO. WE DON'T NEED TO DO ANYTHING UNLESS WE'RE ASKED TO DO IT. THAT'D BE ANOTHER WAY OF PUTTING IT. TALK ABOUT RABBIT HOLE. LEAVE IT THERE. UH, ANOTHER TABLES . I LIKE THE, DID I, DID WE JUST GO BY A WALKUP HOUSE OR A WAKE UP HOUSE WALK? HOW OLD? WHERE YOU AT? OH, GOODNESS. UM, THIS IS, YEAH, C IN, UH, HOLD ON A SECOND. UM, 6.8 0.9 C. UM, OH, SO THIS IS JUST, UM, LIKE THIS, THE, UH, HOMES ON MAIN STREET WHERE THERE'S A BUSINESS BELOW, AND YOU WOULD WALK UP TO GET UP TO THE DWELL UNIT. THAT'S WHAT THIS IS SAYING IS WALK UP LITERALLY OUTSIDE TAX IMPROVEMENTS. [01:30:01] AL STANDARDS BOUNDARIES. WHAT? WAIT, THAT MULTIFAMILY HOUSING. HOUSING. 2, 6, 8. ONE THREE SAYS HOUSING TWICE. WELL, NO, THERE'S A PERIOD PERIOD. MULTI-FAMILY HOUSING. PERIOD. OKAY. HOUSING. SO WHAT'S THAT AGE? WELL, ACTUALLY IT LOOKS LIKE YOU ACCIDENTALLY DELETED THE PERIOD AS WELL. OH, I DIDN'T MEAN TO , BUT, OKAY. I'LL STICK THE ONE BACK IN THERE. OKAY. I GOT YOU. SORRY. OKAY. AND THEN THAT H THE HOUSING SHOULD BE CAPITAL WAGE. I SEE. MULTI BAGS, UTILITY ACCESSORIES. RECREATIONAL ONE, THE FIELD IN THERE THE WHOLE TIME. YEAH. THAT TABLE. MM. UH, 6.8 POINT 17. YES. UH, THERE WAS A, WE DID GET A, UH, NEXT AMENDMENT ONE TIME TO REDUCE THOSE, UH, THAT ACREAGE. DID THAT GO THROUGH? NO. OKAY. IT DID NOT GO THROUGH APPLICATION. HAS TO REDUCE IT TO WHAT, TWO ACRES? YEAH. YEAH. RIGHT. UM, SO WOULD IT BE LEAVING THAT TABLE AS IS THEN? UM, ISN'T THAT THE CURRENT? YES. YEAH, THAT'S THE CURRENT, IF I REMEMBER CORRECT, WE HAD HAD MORE PROBLEMS WITH JUST THE SUPPLE AND SIZE OF THAT DEVELOPMENT. YEAH. AND SO THAT WASN'T THE REASON. IT WAS DENIED BY ITSELF, IF I RECALL. YEAH. THEY, THEY, THEY SUBMITTED A, A TAX AMENDMENT TO REDUCE THAT AND THEN DOWN TO TWO ACRES. MM-HMM . AND, UH, I THINK BETTER, YOU KNOW, WE HAD TO, YOU'D HAVE TO LOOK TO SEE IF YOU WANT ANY P AND DI MEAN, 10 ACRES OR SOMETHING. YOU KNOW, YOU GOT VERY FEW TRACKS OF LAND. IT'S 20 ACRES OR MORE. BUT THAT'S FINE. YEAH, IT IS. THAT'S WHEN YOU'RE REVIEWING THE P AND D, IT'S A LITTLE TOUGH KNOWING THAT IT'LL PROBABLY NEVER HAPPEN . OH, NO, BUT OCCURRING. WELL, I MEAN, THERE IS THE ONE SPOT THAT'S CURRENTLY ZONE , BUT THAT'S ITS OWN ANIMAL. RIGHT. AND IT'S, IT'S IN THE, IT IS A WHOLE ISSUE. GIVEN THIS OF LAND, IF ANYBODY WANTED TO DO IT, IT WOULD MAKE SENSE TO HAVE FIVE. YEAH. I DON'T THINK YOU, YOU HAD, YOU HAD TO THINK ON DEVELOPMENT. I MEAN, FIVE ACRES. THAT'S THE REASON. THE TWO A DRIVE, YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD BE AWFUL SMALL TO HAVE A PMD WITH ALL THE STUFF THAT THE PMD ENCOMPASSES. FIVE ACRES IS PRETTY SMALL. WHAT ABOUT 10? BECAUSE IN TOWN WE HAVE SUCH LIMITED VACANT SPACE. WE DO HAVE ONE PARCEL THAT'S THAT ZONED THAT. I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO THINK ON WHAT, WHAT A P AND D IS. I MEAN, IT'S JUST NOT HOUSING. IT'S COMMERCIAL. YEAH. WE, WE, IN ORDER TO DO THIS, WE WOULD HAVE TO ACTUALLY DO A STUDY TO FIND OUT WHAT IS APPLICABLE AT THE MINIMUM SIZE POSSIBLE TO INCORPORATE ALL THE THINGS THAT A PMD THE FACTORY SIT THERE. IT STILL WOULD BE A LOT OF THIS. RIGHT? TOTALLY. YEAH. YEAH. I MEAN, BECAUSE I MEAN, BASICALLY THE ONE ON THE TWO ACRES, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, YOU HAD TO COUNT FOR THE ROAD SYSTEM AND EVERYTHING ELSE. YOU, YOU, YOU REALLY WOULDN'T ADD, SUGGEST YOU WOULDN'T HAVE A PLANNED NEIGHBORHOOD DISTRICT ON TWO ACRES. BUT THE NUMBERS HERE, WE'LL NEVER HAVE ANYTHING. WELL, WE HAVE, WE HAVE PROPERTIES ON P AND D. WELL, WE DO HAVE ONE, BUT SUBJECT TO LITIGATION. YEAH. SO THAT, YOU KNOW, BUT THAT'S A PLANNED NEIGHBORHOOD DISTRICT. IT'S EVERY, OFFERS A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS IN HOUSING. RIGHT. THAT'S THE DESIGN FOR THE PND. HOW MANY ACRES IS THAT ONE, THE HEFT? 95. RIGHT 0.39. SIX FIVE. MM-HMM. I CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHERE IT'S KEEP GOING. UH, IT'S ON THE SOUTH SOUTHWEST OF HAPPY CREEK. NO SUBDIVISION CHECKS. SO OFF LEASE, RUN PARKWAY AND ALL THAT. MM-HMM . IT [01:35:01] JOINS AT RUN PARKWAY. OKAY. IT'S A, IT'S, IT'S MORE THAN 20 ACRES. IT IS 90 SOMETHING. OH MY GOSH. THAT'S SO, OH MY GOODNESS. HI. HI, TAYLOR. . ARE YOU SAVING IT? OH NO, YOU'RE GOING TO NEVERMIND. OH, COME ON THERE. OH, WAIT. THAT'S FROM A DIFFERENT SITE ENTIRELY. YOU CAN GO TO WARREN GIS.ORG. NO, I I THAT WAS THE RIGHT MAP, WAS IT NOT? YEAH, BUT IT WAS FROM A DIFFERENT WEBSITE ENTIRELY. OKAY. UM, AND I WAS HOPING TO JUST, THAT WAS FROM SUMMIT, I THINK. IS THAT WHAT IT SAYS THERE? YEAH. YEAH. WELL, IT'S BEING, YEAH, PROBABLY DON'T WANT TO DO THAT THERE TO THE COUNTY. GIS WOULD HELP PROBABLY. WHY IS EDGE SO WEIRD? I THINK IT'D BE JUST WARN GIS.ORG. BE GOOD. AND THAT OTHER GS MAPS AND DATA. THERE WE GO. DO ALL I THANK YOU FOR PATIENCE. OH, THIS IS IT RIGHT HERE. THIS IS THE SPOT THAT'S P AND D. IT'S THE HOSPITAL. WHERE'S THE HOSPITAL? IS THERE? OVER HERE? OH YEAH. I WALK, I WALK BY THIS PROPERTY ALL THE TIME. DO YOU LIVE RIGHT, RIGHT NEAR, YEAH. RIGHT. I MEAN, SO YOU DON'T, YOU'RE NOT GONNA HAVE A P AND D IN TOWN AS FAR AS DENSITY AS THOSE ARE GONNA BE MORE FOR ONE, THOSE AREAS THAT ARE VACANT, CIRCLING THEM AROUND THE EDGE OF TOWN. MM-HMM . RIGHT. IF THEY'RE GONNA HAPPEN, EVEN NORTH, EVEN THE OTHER SIDE OF RAILROAD TRACKS IS A POTENTIALLY ONE. YES. MM-HMM . UH, BUT, BUT 2020 ACRES, LIKE I SAID, WE, IF WE REALLY WANTED TO REDUCE THAT NUMBER, WE COULDN'T JUST PICK A NUMBER. RIGHT. WE WOULD HAVE TO DO A STUDY TO DETERMINE WHAT, WHAT IS APPROPRIATE SMALLEST NUMBER TO FIT ON THAT. AND THAT'S, IT IS NOT A TRIVIAL TASK HISTORICALLY. WHEN, WHEN THE, YOU KNOW HOW THE GAZEBO CAME TO BE, THAT WHOLE AREA? YEAH. BECAUSE THAT WAS, THAT WAS, THAT WAS ALL BUILDINGS. YEAH. AFTER THE FIRE. AFTER THE FIRE DOWN. RIGHT. NO. AND SO THERE WAS THAT VACANT LA THAT THAT WHOLE AREA WAS VACANT. AND SO I GUESS THE PLANNING COMMISSION OF THE TOWN FATHERS AND WHOEVER WAS IN CHARGE AT THE TIME HAD QUITE A DEBATE. I UNDERSTAND. ABOUT WHAT TO DO WITH THAT. WHETHER TO DO A, WHAT WOULD'VE BEEN A P AND T, UH, OR RETURN IT TO, YOU KNOW, THEY, THEY WON THE IDEA OF HAVING THE GAZEBO ONE OUT. SO UNLESS WE'RE GONNA GO OFF AND DO A STUDY, I WOULD LEAVE THIS ALONE. YEAH, NO, I WOULD AGREE. YEAH. NO, I AGREE. I AGREE. UM, YEAH, DARK SKY, THAT WAS JUST SOMETHING I NOTICED WAS MISSING. YEAH. SO I ADDED THAT IN THE DESIGN PALLET OF THE P AND D DESIGN GUIDELINES, YOU PUT SOMETHING LIKE A THAN PALLET PD GUY DESIGN GUIDELINES. YEAH. IN OUR CODE. PARDON? IN OUR CODE, THERE'S PD DESIGN GUIDELINES. GUIDELINES, HOW A PALLET WAS KIND OF NICE. YES. . UM, AND NOW C ONE. ALL RIGHT. SO BUSINESS, HIGHWAY ENGINE, COMMERCIAL RETAILING, OPERATIONS, ET CETERA. SORRY. NO, I'M JUST WONDERING IF WE JUST SHOULD CHANGE THAT RESIDENTIAL DWELLING UNIT OVER THE GROUND FLOOR COMMERCIAL TO THE WALK UP, THE WALK UP WALKUP HOUSING. YEAH, THAT'S THE SAME THING. WE COULD CHANGE THAT. WELL, NO, WALK UP HOUSING THE FIRST FLOOR IS JUST SOMETHING THAT IS NOT RESIDENTIAL. IT'S NOT SPECIFICALLY COMMERCIAL. I SEE. YEAH. OKAY. OKAY. OKAY. YEAH. YEP. YEP. GOOD POINT. OKAY. ANYWAY, THAT THE IDEA WAS FOR C ONE IS TRYING TO REINVENT IT A LITTLE BIT TO MAKE IT, UM, THIS IS GOING WITH A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN TOO. AND THAT'S WHY HAVING THE DWELLINGS, UH, WHERE YOU COULD HAVE, UH, CION RED. OKAY. AND SO THAT WAS, UH, OKAY. SO ALL OF THIS TOO. OKAY. THAT'S A LOT. MM-HMM . TRYING TO GET TO THE CONCEPT OF MORE, MORE PEOPLE WORKING PEOPLE DOWNTOWN THAN THE OTHER BUSINESS AREAS. SO THEY SHARE, WHICH IS VERY COMMON IN TOWN, AFTER TOWN, AFTER TOWN, UNIQUE. MM-HMM . [01:40:03] DO, ARE WE GOING TO HAVE ANY STANDARDS FOR WHAT WILL BE ALLOWED WITHIN THAT? OR IS IT JUST OPEN WHATEVER RESIDENTIAL? WHAT DO WE HAVE RIGHT NOW DOWNTOWN? WHAT STANDARDS DO WE APPLY FOR THE APARTMENTS THAT ARE ABOVE THE BUSINESSES? WELL, AT END 600. RIGHT. 'CAUSE THOSE, THIS HAS COME UP ZONING ADMINISTRATOR. RIGHT. SO DETERMINED THAT, I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS OFFICIAL DETERMINATION, BUT UH, THEY HAD TO BE AT LEAST 600 SQUARE FEET. SO THIS, THIS, YES. DID THIS TERM CAUSE ANY PROBLEM WITH BY USING MS TERM RESIDENTIAL DWELLING OVER A GROUND FLOOR COMMERCIAL? YES. WHO WAS PROPOSING THAT? IS THAT I AM, I WAS, I AM PROPOSING IT. SO IF THEY'RE GONNA DO A RESIDENTIAL, WE PROBABLY A RESIDENTIAL DWELLING UNIT OVER GROUND FLOOR COMMERCIAL, THEN THAT DWELLING UNIT WOULD NEED TO BE 600, 300 FEET. AND THAT'S FINE. SO I WOULD, I WOULD PUT RESIDENTIAL DWELLING UNIT. OKAY. BECAUSE APARTMENTS, WHEN WE DO THAT APARTMENT HOUSE, THEY HAVE TO BE IN AN APARTMENT HOUSE. RIGHT? YEAH. NO, AND THAT'S, IF YOU UNDERSTAND. SO IF YOU WANT TO DO SOME TYPE OF REDUCED FOOTPRINT, IS THAT FOR, FOR AN APARTMENT HOUSE UNIT? IS THAT WHERE THE COMMISSION IS GOING? NO. RE WELL, WE JUST FOOTPRINT, IF YOU PUT THINKING OF RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS, OF THE COMMERCIAL, IT'S AN APARTMENT HOUSE THAT THE UNITS CAN BE LESS THAN 600. NO. THAT'S WHERE WE HAVE HAVE THAT THERE NOW. BUT HERE, IF YOU'RE JUST DOING A COMMERCIAL, IF YOU WANT A RESIDENTIAL USE OVER A COMMERCIAL DWELLING UNIT, IT'S A DWELLING UNIT. UNIT, YES. PEOPLE REFER TO 'EM IN AS APARTMENTS, BUT IT IS A 600 SQUARE FEET. RIGHT? YES. AND THAT, AND THAT, THAT'S THAT FITS. AND THEN THESE STRIKETHROUGHS, ARE THOSE YOU REMOVING THESE FROM BEING BY RIGHT. IN C ONE? YES. A SINGLE DWELLING. SO THEY WOULDN'T WANT TO ALLOW, THEY THEY WOULD BE IN, THEY WOULD BE BY SPECIAL USE PERMIT. IT'S MOVED TO SPECIAL USE. CAN YOU TALK ME THROUGH THE REASONING ON THAT? WE'RE TRYING TO FOCUS THE COMMERCIAL AREAS, UM, FOR THE, THIS MIX, BUT FOCUS TO HAVE MORE COMMERCIAL AREAS TO GENERATE INCOME AND, AND BUT ALSO MAKE IT CONSUMER FRIENDLY BY ALLOWING APARTMENTS OR, OR, OR SPECIAL OR UNITS ABOVE. BUT NOT USE THE LAND FOR SINGLE FAMILY DWELLINGS. YOU KNOW? BUT THAT'S A THOUGHT PROCESS. AND PART OF THE IDEA IS DWELLING IN TERMS OF GATHERING THINGS TOGETHER. AND THERE'S BEEN TALK AS WELL, OF COURSE, OF MAKING THINGS WALKABLE, THINGS LIKE THAT. IF YOU'RE THEN GOING TO EXCLUDE, LET'S SAY, LIKE TOWN HOMES NOT EXCLUDE, NOT EXCLUDING, IT'S PUTTING IN SPECIAL USE, BUT THE IDEA IS TO MAKE IT BE THOUGHTFUL. YEAH. SO IF YOU MAKE IT A SPECIAL USE PERMIT WHERE PEOPLE ARE DESIGNING THE DOWNTOWN, IF WE, IF IT IS, IF IT'S BY RIGHT IN THE C ONE, PEOPLE WILL PUT WHATEVER THEY WANT WHEN THEY WANT WITHOUT REGARD TO WHAT THE TOWN STRUCTURE IS TO BE IN THE COMMERCIAL DISTRICT. SO IF IT'S SPECIAL USE, NOW THE TOWN COUNCIL OR US OR WHOEVER IT HAPPENS TO BE EVALUATING CAN LOOK TO SEE IF IT DOES INDEED FIT IN WITH THE TOWN'S COMPREHENSIVE PLAN OF WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DEVELOP IN THE TOWN. THAT THAT'S THE REASONING BEHIND MAKING IT SPECIAL USE. OKAY. UM, SO IN LOOKING OVER HERE AS WELL THOUGH, AND WE HAVE A LOT OF AREAS RIGHT NOW. I NO. OH NO. OKAY. I WAS JUST THOUGHT I KNEW. OKAY. UM, BUT A LOT OF AREAS THAT ARE IN C ONE WHERE IT WOULD BE ENTIRELY APPROPRIATE TO BUILD TOWN HOMES THERE, WOULD IT NOT POTENTIALLY THEN PUT A SPECIAL USE PERMIT AND IT COULD BE EVALUATED AGAINST THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN WHERE WE'RE TRYING TO DEVELOP IN THE COMMERCIAL AREA, THEN DETERMINE IF IT IS INDEED APPROPRIATE, BUT NOT JUST MAKE IT BY RIGHT. THAT SOMEONE ELSE MAKES THE DECISION FOR THE TOWN. BUT IN THAT WAY, IF WE'RE GONNA PUT, YOU KNOW, HAVE THIS BE COMMERCIAL, THEN, YOU KNOW, HOW FAR INTO THE DETAIL ARE WE GONNA GO? DO WE WANT TO SAVE IN THAT? YOU KNOW, IF WE'RE GONNA ALLOW, YOU KNOW, TRUCK SALES LOTS BECAUSE WE NEED MORE OF THOSE IN HERE IN TOWN, UH, ARE BY RIGHT. BUT TOWN HOMES WHERE PEOPLE COULD WALK TO THE STORE DOWN THE STREET ARE NOT, I DON'T KNOW. I JUST, I WONDER IF THAT IS, WE'RE SEGMENTING THINGS TOO. I UNDERSTAND. BUT WHAT, WHAT IT IS A COMMERCIAL USE, A TOWN HOME IS NOT A COMMERCIAL USE. AND THIS IS A COMMERCIAL AREA THAT THAT'S THE REASON WHY, UH, YOU'RE LEAVING THE AUTOMOBILE TRUCK SALES LOT AS OPPOSED TO A MULTI-FAMILY HOME. MM-HMM . IT, THAT IS A COMMERCIAL APPLICATION. [01:45:01] SINGLE FAMILY HOME IS NOT A COMMERCIAL APPLICATION. THE GOOD THING TO KNOW IS THAT YOU COULD PROBABLY PUT UP RESIDENTIAL HOUSING IN ANY OF OUR COMMERCIAL DISTRICTS AND THEY'LL STILL BE WITHIN WALKING DISTANCE OF A TRUCK SALE SLOT, . SO ANYWAY, THAT WAS THE WHOLE REASONING BEHIND IT. 'CAUSE WE'RE TRYING TO SHIFT THE FOCUS OF WHAT LIMITED AREA WE HAVE IN TOWN THAT GENERATES INCOME IN A COMMERCIAL SENSE TO KEEP IT AS A GEN INCOME, POTENTIAL GEN INCOME GENERATING PROPERTY AND KEEPING IT WALKABLE IS IMPORTANT. TOO. WALKABLE FROM THE, FROM THE WHOLE POINT OF VIEW FOR THE TOWN. WELL, BUT THERE HAS TO BE A PLAN FOR THE TOWN. AND IF WE DON'T MAKE OURSELVES LOOK AT EACH APPLICATION IS GOING THROUGH AND LEAVE IT ALL BY, RIGHT. IN THIS CASE, PEOPLE WILL DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO. AND IN, IN MANY CASES, THE TOWN HOMES MAY BE PERFECT, BUT LET'S MAKE THAT DETERMINATION ON CASE BY CASE BASIS. THAT'S MY ARGUMENT. OKAY. OKAY. NO, I, I, I HEAR YOU. I THINK THAT THAT CAN MAKE SENSE. UM, I DO HAVE A QUESTION ON CARETAKER QUARTERS. I DID A QUICK SEARCH. THIS IS THE ONLY PLACE IN WHAT'S IN THIS DOCUMENT WHERE, WHERE IT EXISTS AT ALL. YEAH. DO WE KNOW WHY IT'S THERE? WHY WOULD IT, I I COULDN'T FIGURE IT OUT. WE HAD A LONG DISCUSSION ABOUT THAT, ABOUT CARETAKER COURTERS IN C ONE, NOT IN C ONE ABOUT THE, THAT I'M THE ONE, THE ONES WHERE I WASN'T HERE POSSIBLY WHEN WE WERE WORKING ON THE EXCEL SPREADSHEET. I'M GONNA SEE IF I CAN PULL IT UP. UH, YEAH, YOU HAD THAT WORD THAT USES YEAH, I REMEMBER, I REMEMBER. WE, YOU MAY NOT HAVE BEEN THERE FOR THAT PARTICULAR ONE. OKAY. UH, YEAH, THE VISUALIZATION IS A LITTLE, A LITTLE HOUSE WITH A GUY WITH A JUNKYARD DOG. HE'S THE CARETAKER QUARTERS OR SOMETHING LOOKING AT A PROPERTY OR SOMEONE TAKING CARE OF A PROPERTY. OH, SO SOMEONE LIVING ON THAT COMMERCIAL PROPERTY THAT, THAT'S WHAT I, I BELIEVE THAT WAS THE, THE IDEA. SOMEONE LIVING THERE, LIKE A, UM, A CARETAKER WHO'S RESIDENT. OKAY. THE IDEA. SO THIS WOULD BE LIKE SOMEBODY THE, UM, AND WHY DO WE, WHY ARE YOU CROSSING IT UP? WHY? I JUST COULDN'T SEE, UM, AN APPLICATION FOR IT. A DWELLING UNIT LOCATED WITHIN A BUILDING THAT IS USED BY A BUSINESS ENTERPRISE AND IS OCCUPIED BY THE OWNER OR AN EMPLOYEE OF THE BUSINESS. ONLY ONE CARETAKER'S QUARTER SHALL HAVE USED THE BUILDING. IT SHALL NOT BE INSIDE UTILIZED MORE THAN 20% OF THE GROUND FLOOR AREA. THE BUILDING. I, I DON'T SEE A REASON WHY WE WOULDN'T ALLOW IT. I MEAN, IT'S A FREEDOM OF THE BUSINESS BUILDING. IT'S THE BUSINESS AREA. UM, I AGREE. UM, ON THE FENCE ON TAKING OUT OR LEAVING IT, LEAVING IN MYSELF, I'D BE HAPPY TO LEAVE IT IN IF YOU GUYS, THAT'S HOW THAT ONE FEELS ON THE CARETAKER COURSE. I'D BE INCLINED TO LEAVE IT BACK IN. TYPE IT BACK IN. I AGREE. YEAH. OR JUST, UM, I THINK HE JUST DO LEFT CLICK AND, UM, NOT ACCEPT. REJECT CHANGE. REJECT CHANGE. THERE YOU GO. PROBLEM. PROBLEM SOLVED. OH NO. AND ALSO TO BE, OH, TOOK ALL THOSE. DON'T WORRY. UM, OKAY. UM, AND RESIDENTIAL DWELLING UNIT, THIS WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, ANY FORM OF DWELLING UNIT. SO IT'S ESSENTIALLY THIS, BUT WELL CURRENT, CURRENTLY WE ONLY ALLOW UP TO THREE, RIGHT? ABOUT RIGHT. CURRENTLY WE ONLY ALLOW RE DWELLING UNITS OF ANY TYPE, BUT NOT ON THE GROUND FLOOR OF ANY BUILDING. THAT'S OUR CURRENT. YEAH. AND TRYING TO EXPAND THAT. RIGHT. SO, OH, SO THE SINGLE FAMILY TOWNHOUSE IS A MULTI-FAMILY. THIS WERE SUGGESTIONS BY THE CONSULTANT THEN, RIGHT? YES. OKAY. UM, SO NOW RESIDENTS, WE ONLY ALLOW UP TO THREE DWELLING UNITS OF ANY TYPE, BUT NOT ON THE GROUND FLOOR. THAT, THAT, SO NOW WE'RE EXPANDING, YOU'RE CHANGING THAT TO THE, UH, RESIDENTIAL DWELLINGS OVER GROUND FLOOR COMMERCIAL. YEAH. SO THAT EXPANDS IT TO ALLOW MORE OF THAT. SO BY, RIGHT. YOU CAN ONLY DO THREE CURRENTLY, BUT NOW IT'S, AS LONG AS YOU CAN HAVE THE 600 SQUARE FOOT, YOU COULD HAVE MULTIPLE MORE THAN THREE BY. RIGHT. UH, WITH THIS, WITH OUR CHANGES ARE PRETTY COOL. RIGHT. OKAY. UM, SO WHERE MARTIN IS, COULD BE THREE STORIES OF APARTMENTS ABOVE IN THAT WHOLE SHOPPING CENTER COULD BECOME POTENTIALLY, YEAH. IN FACT, THAT WOULD, I WOULD, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE WHERE BIG LOSS IS AND ALL THAT TURNED INTO SOMETHING LIKE THAT. HAVE A SHOPPING ON THE BOTTOM FLOOR AND RESIDENTIAL ON THE TOP. THAT WOULD BE NICE. I THAT, THAT WOULD BE GREAT. I'LL DO NOTHING BUT MY PERSONAL VIEW. BUT WE WANNA THEN KEEP THEM IN THE BAFFLE MINDS. THEN. UH, [01:50:01] I'M SURE THERE'S, THERE'S HEIGHT MAXIMUMS ANYWAY, BUT HOW MANY STORIES OF RESIDENTIAL WOULD BE ALLOWED? BECAUSE I'M CALLING MORE SPECIFICALLY LIKE THE MOSAIC DISTRICT OVER IN FAIRFAX. IT DOES HAVE APARTMENTS OVER COMMERCIAL, BUT YOU GO IN THERE, THAT CHARACTER'S TOTALLY DIFFERENT THAN HERE IN TERMS OF HOW TALL THOSE BUILDINGS ARE. WE DO HAVE LIMITATIONS ON STRUCTURE HEIGHTS ALREADY. RIGHT. WE CAN HOW MANY STORIES CAN YOU GET WITH THE CURRENT LIMITATIONS? GONNA SCROLL TO THAT ANYWAY. THIS IS AGAIN FOR THE COMMERCIAL, ADDING OTHER THINGS IN THAT WERE, UM, MORE, THIS IS TRYING TO BRING IT UP TO DATE A BIT WITH THE ITEMS THAT WERE PEOPLE WANTED. THE COMMUNITY MM-HMM . WE, UH, I TO CLOSE BY ALL MEANS. IF YOU GUYS HAVE MORE SUGGESTIONS, PLEASE JUMP IN OR DON'T LIKE ANY OF EM. WELL, WOULD A FOOD BANK BE CONSIDERED A NON-PROFIT OFFICE? POTENTIALLY, I GUESS. YEAH. OKAY. IT WOULD ALSO BE ONE OF THOSE, YOU KNOW, SUBSTANTIALLY SIMILAR AND THEREFORE ALLOWED, UH, BECAUSE IT MATCHES. WHY DO WE NEED TO SPECIFY THAT THEY HAVE OUTDOOR DINING? UM, WE, WE GET THAT GOOD. BIT MORE THAN YOU REALIZE THAT PEOPLE, RESTAURANTS WANT TO HAVE OUTDOOR DINING. WELL, THE A SPECIAL, THIS SEEMS TO SAY THAT IF YOU WANT A RESTAURANT, YOU HAVE TO HAVE OUTDOOR DINING. IT'S WHAT'S ALLOWED BY RIGHT. IS RESTAURANTS WITH OUTDOOR DINING, SHOULD WE SAY WE COULD WITH OR WITHOUT. I SEE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. OR IF WE JUST SAY YES, YES. DOESN'T IMPLY THEY CAN GIVE USE HAS TO OCCUR WITHIN THE BUILDING. YEAH. WE WANNA BE ABLE TO HAVE OUTDOOR DINING TO ALLOWABLE. SO THEN WE SHOULD HAVE RESTAURANTS PERIOD. WITHOUT OUTDOOR DINING. WELL, NO. 'CAUSE THEN, BUT BECAUSE BY DEFAULT IT'S NOT ALLOWED. OH. SO IF YOU JUST BY DEFAULT THE USE HAS TO OCCUR WITHIN STRUCTURE. THE STRUCTURE. SO JUST RESTAURANTS AND THEN RESTAURANTS WITH OUTDOOR DINING HAVE RESTAURANT. THERE'S NO RESTAURANTS WITH OUTDOOR DINING IN TOWN. NO, THERE ARE. THERE ARE. YES. YEAH. CAN WE JUST SAY WITH OR WITHOUT OUTDOOR DINING? SO HOW DID THEY GET TO BE RESTAURANTS WITHOUT OUTDOOR DINING? YEP. THEY HAVE STRUCTURE. CAN WE JUST DO, SHE JUST DID THERE PER SAY, WITH OR WITHOUT OUTDOOR DINING? I DIDN'T INTEND TO IT. THE ANSWER. YEAH. PARDON? I I THE QUESTION IS, UH, DO WE, WE CURRENTLY HAVE RESTAURANTS WITH OUTSIDE DINING. AND HOW WERE THOSE APPROVED? I, I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER. YEAH, LIKE THE ELEMENT HAD OUTDOOR DINING FOR A PERIOD OF TIME AND EVEN, EVEN, UM, DAILY GRIND HAS OUTDOOR DINING. BUT UM, YEAH, THERE WAS AN ACCOMMODATION FOR COVID. YES. TO ALLOW SOME PEOPLE REALIZED THEY LIKED IT TO ALLOW USE OF SIDEWALKS, I THINK. YES. UM, USE OF ALLEYS. I THINK A LOT OF IT STARTED DURING COVID TOO. I DIDN'T MEAN TO, THAT'S, I BELIEVE WHEN, WHEN I DID THIS, WHEN I SAID OUTDOOR DINING, I WAS THINKING INCLUSIVE. IF YOU JUST WANT AN INDOOR DINING, THAT'S FINE TOO, BUT YOU'RE ALLOWED TO. SO WITH OR WITHOUT, I THINK SOLVES THAT. YEAH. IT'S A NICE AMBIANCE TO AN AREA TO HAVE IT. SO IT'S A GOOD THING TO HAVE. OKAY. AGAIN, A LOT OF TIMES WHEN I WAS LOOKING AT THIS STUFF AS THINKING COMMERCIAL THINGS THAT BRING PEOPLE DOWN INTO THE TOWN AND THINGS THAT MAKE MONEY THAT THERE'S A APPLICABLE. AND ALSO I WOULD TRY TO THINK OF THINGS THAT, IF POSSIBLE, CLEAN INDUSTRIES AND THINGS LIKE THAT. COMMERCIAL SUITABLE FOR COMMERCIAL. COULD YOU SCROLL BACK UP A SECOND? . SO ONE, YOU'VE BEEN DONE. HMM. NO, GO AHEAD. I WAS JUST, AS YOU SCROLL DOWN, I DIDN'T QUITE UNDERSTAND RESTAURANTS. SO NOW DRIVE-IN, NO ONE HAS DRIVE-INS ANYMORE. WELL, NO DRIVE-IN RESTAURANT IS LIKE A MEAN THE DRIVE, UH, MCDONALD'S DRIVE THROUGH COUNTS AS A DRIVE IN, IF I RECALL THE DEFINITION CORRECT. RECALL DRIVE IN. YEAH. OKAY. NOT, NOT, NOT THE, UH, YOU'RE THINKING OF THE A AND W. YES. ROLLER SKATE. YOU'RE THINKING OF THE A AND W ROLLER SKATE DRIVE IN, BUT YOU BY THE DEFINITION, THOSE WITH A DRIVE THROUGH. YEAH. UH, MCDONALD'S OR ANY OF THE FAST FOOD HAS A DRIVE THROUGH. THAT'S THE DRIVE IN RESTAURANT. OKAY. SO WE CAN TAKE OUT THAT DRIVE MARK OUT WITH THE DRIVE, INCLUDING THE DRIVE INTERVIEW WISH. OF COURSE. DO JUST WANNA JUST PUT IT UP HERE. JUST PUT IT UP THERE. YEAH. AND THEN IN THE SMALL SCALE MAKER SPACE, ARTISAN MANUFACTURING. THAT, THAT, SO WHAT WAS ABOVE THAT? COULD YOU GO BACK UP? DENTAL OFFICES? UH, YEAH, KEEP GOING. WELL, HOW, HOW FAR DO YOU WANT ME TO GO? I'M JUST LOOKING. [01:55:01] I MEAN WE, WE, WE WERE SO SPECIFIC ON THE KIND OF SHOPS WE WANT. WOULD A BOOKSTORE BE ALLOWED? I MEAN, WE'RE AWFULLY SPECIFIC ON SHOPS, SO MAYBE WE'RE TOO SPECIFIC AND MAYBE WE SHOULD HAVE A CATEGORY OF RETAIL. WELL, RETAIL OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. WELL, RETAIL, GENERAL RETAIL, RETAIL STORES. WE HAVE THAT. IS THAT ON THIS LIST? YEAH. DID I MISS HAS DEFINE IS 6.2 0.1 RIGHT HERE. OH, OKAY. I MISSED THAT. OKAY. I WASN'T LOOKING AT THEIR EYE. OKAY. ARE NOT DEFINED. IF THEY'RE A RETAIL STORE, THEY'RE, THEY'RE, THEN THEY'RE PERMITTED. THAT'LL INCLUDE EVERYTHING ELSE. AND WHAT'S A PHARMACEUTICAL CENTER? UH, IT'S NOT A PHARMACY. IT'S NOT A, IT'S THE PHARMACEUTICAL CENTERS ARE THE ONES THAT PROVIDE, UH, DRUGS TO DOCTOR'S OFFICES. THEY'RE NOT AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC. THEY'RE NOT WAREHOUSES? NO, NOT WAREHOUSES. NO. THEY'RE SPEC THEY'RE VERY SPECIALIZED DISTRIBUTION CENTERS. BUT THEY'RE, ARE YOU LEAVING IN THE SMALL SCALE MAKER SPACES? ARTISAN MANUFACTURING? YES. OKAY. SO WHAT, WHAT SMALL SCALE MAKER SPACES. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? IS THAT LIKE GLASS FLOWING OR SOMETHING? YEAH, THEY DO OUR MANUFACTURER ON SITE. SMALL SCALE. OKAY. SMALL SCALE MAKER SPACES. IT'S, IT'S A RELAT IT IS A RELATIVELY NEW TERM, BUT IT IS COMMON. WE'LL HAVE TO DEFINE IT. YEAH. AND THEN WE'LL HAVE TO, I'D HAVE A DEFINITION FOR IT. RIGHT. THAT, THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE. WOULD WHAT? TO ADD A DEFINITION FOR SMALL SCALE MAKER SPACES. EARLIER WE HAD HAD COWORKING. DOES THAT NEED TO BE DEFINED TOO? COWORKING SPACES? I THINK WE HAVE THAT DEFINITION. YEAH, I THINK WE DID MAKE THAT. OKAY. I KNOW WE STILL LISTED SOME THERE IN USE, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF IT DEFINED ALL OF COURSE THERE'S, YEAH. ART, CHURCHES, LIBRARIES. SOUNDS GOOD. I WILL MAKE A SMALL CHANGE HERE JUST SO THAT IT MATCHES EVERYTHING ELSE. ONLY PERIODS THE MH DAYS. YEAH. AND CAPITALIZE. THAT'S ALL OTHER WORDS. CONNIE, WERE WE TALKING ABOUT TEMPORARY OFFICE? WHAT? COWORKING? YEAH. WELL, WHAT, HOW DO WE HAVE IT? FRONT WORKS WORK FOR SHORT TERM USE OFFERED, RENTED BY THE HOUR, DAY, WEEK OR MONTH, TYPICALLY BY INDIVIDUALS OR BUSINESSES THAT NEED A FLEXIBLE WORKING LOCATION. GOT A LONG TERM. WE ADDED THAT. WE DID, WE ADDED THAT ONE. AN EARLIER DISCUSSION. NO, THAT THAT'S, THAT'S IT. FINE. YEAH. AND THEN DO WE WANT TO TAKE THIS OUT AND HAVE IT BE THE DEPTH OF THE THING YOU PUT IN BEFORE AND THE OTHERS? THAT SIMILAR TO ONE? OH YES. THAT'S THE SAME THING. I MISSED THAT ONE. WAS IT? YEAH. UM, LEMME SEE. WE JUST CUT AND PASTE WHEN THIS IS PAGE 44. SO THAT DON'T BRUISE IT. UM, HERE, WE, WE ARE ALL GONNA BE SUCH ZONING CODE EXPERTS OR THROUGH, THERE WE GO. YOU WILL COME FROM WHAT PAGE YOU ON TO COPY THAT OVER? UH, UH, I CAN FIND OUT REAL QUICK. IT'S THE SAME ONES OVER FROM BEFORE. SO, UM, IT'S REPEATED A FEW TIMES. YEAH. LET'S GIVE THE EXAMPLE OF PAGE 15. PAGE 15, MM-HMM . PAGE 15 OF THE DOCUMENT I SENT. MM-HMM . ALRIGHT. AND NOW WE'RE IN A SPECIAL USE PERMIT. THIS WOULD BE YOUR RIGHT. SO JUST THING WHEN WE, WHEN YOU, WE'VE STRICKEN THE APARTMENTS FOR DWELLING UNITS WITH FOUR OR MORE. NOW WHEN YOU DID THAT BY, RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING. NOW, NOW WITH THAT BY RIGHT. YOU'RE NOT LIMITING THE NUMBER OF APARTMENTS. YES. NO DWELLING UNITS. DWELLING UNITS. WE'RE NOT LIMITING THE NUMBER. 'CAUSE YOU COULD HAVE A WHOLE ROW OF BUSINESSES DOWN BELOW EACH. WITH ABOVE, DEPENDING ON THE SIDE. IF WE TAKE THE, THE CASE OF, UH, BIG LOTS AND ALL THAT AREA WERE TO CONVERT THOSE WOULD BE BIG ENOUGH TO COVER THAT. RIGHT. SO CURRENTLY, IF YOU'RE WANTING MORE THAN FOUR, IT'S A SPECIAL USE PERMIT. MM-HMM . WE, I'M SORRY IF YOU'RE GONNA HAVE AS ROW OF BUSINESSES OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE APARTMENTS OR WHATEVER TYPE OF BUILDING AND ABOVE, IF YOU WANNA DO MORE THAN THREE OF THEM, MORE THAN MORE THAN FOUR OR MORE, YOU NEED, YOU NEED TO GO TO A SPECIAL USE PERMIT. SO [02:00:01] IT DEPENDS. I MEAN, THAT COULD GO IN LINE WITH WHAT YOU WERE SAYING EARLIER ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT COMES TO RESIDENTIAL PARTS. NO, I, I THINK NOW WE TOTALLY, YEAH. I THINK LEAVE IT, LEAVE IT IN THERE. THAT STILL MAKES SENSE. SO, SO BY RIGHT, YOU'RE, WHEN WE GO THERE, WHEN YOU DO DWELLING UNITS OVER THE GROUND FLOOR, YOU'RE BY THAT BY. RIGHT. YOU'RE NOT LIMITING THE NUMBER THAT THEY CAN DO A CONVERSION FOR OR ADD TO. CURRENTLY. YOU CAN DO THREE BY, RIGHT? YEAH. NOW WE'RE MOVING THAT TO SAY MORE. OKAY. SO YOU, SO WE NEED TO CHANGE THAT. OKAY. YEAH. RIGHT. WHAT ARE YOU ADDING? I'M SORRY. I'M HAVING A HARD TIME SEEING. OH YEAH, WE NEED TO, WE NEED TO, OH, OKAY. LET'S, WELL, SO THIS IS JUST MY KIND OF LIKE A QUESTION HERE. I MEAN, IF WE'RE, IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BIGOTS, UH, MAYBE BIG LOTS COULD HAVE UP TO THREE, BUT THEN NEXT DOOR TO BIG LOTS WHERE THERE'S A WHOLE SERIES OF LITTLE SHOPS NOW. YEAH. WOULD EACH ONE OF THEM BE ABLE TO GET THREE OR ARE WE ENVISIONING ONE BIG DEVELOPER COMING AND DOING THE WHOLE SHOPPING CENTER? WHAT YOU'RE SAYING THEY'RE NOW THOSE WOULD COULD GO UP TO THREE BY, RIGHT. IN EACH OF THOSE SEPARATE BUILDINGS? YES. IF THEY HAVE THE ROOM, OBVIOUSLY 600 SQUARE FOOT DWELLING UNIT, THEY COULD DO THREE BY. RIGHT. IF THEY WANT TO DO MORE THAN THREE, THEN THEY NEED A SPECIAL USE PERMIT. OKAY. OKAY. AND THAT'S WHERE YOU WOULD, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY WITH A SPECIAL USE PERMIT, YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD'VE TO DETERMINE IF, IF THE USE IS APPROPRIATE. UM, SO ARE YOU ADDING THAT UP TO THREE? UP TO THREE? WELL, I WAS, I WAS RE INCLUDING IT BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE THAT'S THE DIRECTION WE WERE GOING. I'M JUST TRYING TO THINK. I THOUGHT THAT WASN'T THE DIRECTION I THOUGHT. NO, I THINK PRECISELY TRYING. YEAH. WELL I'M GETTING MYSELF CONFUSED HERE. YEAH. I THOUGHT WE WERE TRYING, TRYING TO REMOVE THAT. YEAH, WE DO WANT REMOVE IT. WE DON'T WANT THAT IN THERE. BUT, OKAY. SO WHAT THIS IS ALLOWING THEN, IS ANY NUMBER ANY, ANY NUMBER. AS LONG AS THEY HAVE THEIR NUMBER OF SQUARE FEET UNLIMITED WITH NO SPECIAL USE PERMIT WITHOUT A S THAT A PROBLEM PROVIDED THEY, YEAH. WHY IS THAT A PROBLEM? BECAUSE WE JUST SAID WE WANTED TO MAKE . NO, BUT IT'S ABOVE BUSINESSES. THIS IS BUSINESSES. BUT IT'S, BUT IF YOU'RE ALLOWING AS MANY AS THE PERSON COULD FIT IN THERE REASONABLY AND HOW MANY THEY WANNA PUT, THEN BY RIGHT. THERE'S PARKING. THERE'S PARKING THAT COMES IN, BUT THERE'S NO, UH, THERE'S NO CONTROL THEN ON WHETHER OR NOT WE THINK THAT THAT'S ACTUALLY A GOOD SPOT TO HAVE THAT MANY RESIDENCES. OKAY. AND IT'S BY, RIGHT. SO WE HAVE NO WAY OF SAYING LIKE, YOU'RE GONNA PUT 25 OF 'EM THERE. THIS STREET TRAFFIC WISE CAN'T HANDLE IT. THEREBY, RIGHT. WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING. YOU WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE STRAIN OF THE PUBLIC INFRASTRUCTURE. SURE. SO WHAT YOU PROPOSE, WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE? I, I'M JUST, I'M JUST THROWING THIS OUT THERE. YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD HAVE TO LOOK, YOU KNOW, IS, IS A STRAIN ON THE PUBLIC INFRASTRUCTURE. IF YOU HAVE UNLIMITED RESIDENTIAL HOUSING DEVELOP OR DWELLING UNITS ABOVE A COMMERCIAL. THAT'S ACTUALLY A REALLY GOOD POINT. 'CAUSE THAT COULD START INHIBITING COMMERCIAL ACTIVITY AND BE ACTUALLY SOMEWHAT LESS ATTRACTIVE TO, TO MERCHANTS. LIKE I JUST EVEN ACTUALLY WORKS THE OTHER WAY AROUND THOUGH. NO, I'M THINKING ABOUT LIKE, I KNOW SOMEBODY THAT I KNEW THAT LIVED UP ABOVE ONE OF THE SHOPS ON MAIN STREET AND THERE WERE JUST SO MANY PROBLEMS WITH PARKING OR IF SHE WANTED TO UNLOAD HER GROCERIES, LIKE SHE HAD TO CARRY THEM SO FAR. SO SHE'D PARK IN THE FRONT AND THE MERCHANT WOULD GET ANGRY AT HER. AND IT WAS LIKE, LIKE IF YOU HAD THAT TIMES 25, THEY WOULDN'T RENT THE, THEY WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO RENT THE APARTMENTS. BUT I MEAN, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ABOUT BIG BLOCKS. I MEAN, HYPOTHETICALLY BIG WE CAN, WELL, AND IN THAT CASE, THAT'D BE, THAT WOULD JUST COME TO A SPECIAL USE PERMIT. AND WE'D SAY, DOES THIS MAKE SENSE? IS THE STRAIN APPROPRIATE? UNBEARABLE. AND MERCHANTS MIGHT ACTUALLY LIKE IT BECAUSE THEN CUSTOMER, WELL IT DEPENDS ON THE ENVIRONMENT, BUT THAT'S WHERE THAT, THAT COULD BE MONITORED. SO THIS IS MORE JUST A, WE'RE PROTECTING OURSELVES AND IT'S NOT, WE CAN'T HAVE MORE. BUT IF YOU'RE WANT MORE, SHOULD WE SAY OVER A PER GROUND FLOOR, SOMETHING OVER PER, WE'RE TRYING TO SET A CONDITION HERE TO KEEP CONTROL IS WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO. LIMIT ON, ON THE NUMBER OF UNITS. SO DO IS WHAT I'M GOING SO, HMM. I I THINK PROPER, PROPER PLANNING. I DON'T THINK IT SHOULD BE A FREE FOR ALL. MAYBE LACK OF WHAT WORD? IF YOU HAD A BUILDING AND YOU WANTED TO PUT, WE'LL JUST SAY 30 DWELLING UNITS ABOVE THE COMMERCIAL BUSINESS, YOU COULD, BUT ISN'T THE SQUARE FOOT REQUIREMENT THAT PUTS A STRAIN ON PUBLIC INFRASTRUCTURE, [02:05:01] WATER, PARKING, PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION. BUT JOHN, WOULDN'T THE SQUARE FOOTAGE REQUIREMENT OF EACH RESIDENTIAL D UNIT BE SELF-LIMITING? YES. IT WOULD. HOW MANY 600 SQUARE FOOT DWELLING UNIT IS BECAUSE YOU PLACE ABOVE THE BIG LOTS. YEAH. A FINITE NUMBER. SURE. SURE. IT'S NOT, BUT IT'S NOT UNLIMITED. BUT IT WOULD STILL BE PROBABLY, I THINK YOU WOULD LOSE CONTROL OF THE DENSITY OF THE, OF IF IT'S APPROPRIATE THERE. BUT IT SOUND NO, IT JUST SOUNDS A LITTLE BIT LIKE WHEN, WHEN THEY WANTED TO DEVELOP THAT LOCK OVER THERE BY THE HOSPITAL, THEY HAVE TO GIVE A TRAFFIC ANALYSIS. WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN? WELL, THAT'S A LITTLE DIFFERENT. IT'S NO CONSTRUCTION. YEAH. SO IT ALMOST DOES SEEM TO MAKE SENSE THAT, THAT, UNLESS WE CAN SAY RIGHT NOW THAT OUR INFRASTRUCTURE COULD HANDLE THAT. I DON'T THINK IT'S WISE TO GRATE, CREATE A SCENARIO WHEREBY, RIGHT. PEOPLE CAN ADD A SIGNIFICANT VOLUME OR A SIGNIFICANT DRAIN ON, ON TOWN UTILITY, LET'S JUST SAY RESOURCES WITH NO PARAMETERS AROUND THAT. LIKE, IT, IT WOULDN'T EVEN BE FAIR TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BUILDING THERE, BECAUSE IS THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE TO SUPPORT 30 UNITS ABOVE BIG LOTS, RIGHT? NO, NO. YET. SO, SO THE PROPOSE, THIS IS, WE, I THINK THIS DISCUSSION HAS GONE, THERE NEEDS TO BE A LIMITING FACTOR EXCEPT BY SPECIAL USE PERMIT. IS THAT WHAT WE'RE SAYING? RIGHT. SO WE SAID A LIMITING FACTOR. ORIGINALLY IT WAS THREE, MAYBE THAT WAS THE RIGHT NUMBER. AND GO, GO BACK TO THAT. AND THEN IN THE SPECIAL USE PERMIT, ALLOW VERBIAGE TO ALLOW MORE. IS THAT WHERE WE'RE GOING? I THINK SO. OKAY. DO WE SO WANT TO TAKE A CRACK AT WORDING THAT , I MEAN CURRENTLY IT'S LISTED AS UP TO THREE DWELLING UNITS OF ANY TYPE, BUT NOT ON THE GROUND FLOOR. SO NOW YOU'RE DOING UP TO THREE RESIDENTIAL DWELLING UNITS OVER GROUND FLOOR COMMERCIAL. OKAY. I MEAN, UM, IS THAT SO THAT FITS? WELL, I MEAN WE'RE OKAY. WE, WE ARE WE THE SAME? WE JUST SAYING, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY YOU CANNOT PUT IT ON THE GROUND FLOOR. IT HAS TO BE OVER COMMERCIAL. THAT'S 6.9 0.2. IT'S YEAH, I HAVE MY PAGE 41. I MEAN, I, I WOULD THINK WE JUST KEEP IT SIMPLE. YEAH. UP TO THREE RESIDENTIAL DWELLING UNITS, NOT ON GROUND FLOOR. I MEAN, WELL MAYBE DO WE HAVE TO SPECIFY THAT IT HAS TO BE OVER COMMERCIAL? THAT THAT YEAH, THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE DOING. IF YOU'RE DOING IT OVER COMMERCIAL. I MEAN, AND IN THEORY, I GUESS YOU'RE, UH, AND THIS IS SPECIALIZED TO ALLOW FOR RESIDENTIAL OVER COMMERCIAL. I THINK THAT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE TO HAVE A COMMERCIAL. SO, UM, WELL WHAT WE'RE SAYING HERE THEN IS SOMEBODY WHO WANTED TO LIVE ABOVE, BUILD A APARTMENT ABOVE THEIR ART GALLERY, COULDN'T DO THAT BECAUSE THAT'S ORGANIZATIONAL, NOT COMMERCIAL. SO THE ART GALLERY HAVE A MAIN STREET. NO, I DON'T THINK THE ART GALLERY IS ON MAIN STREET. YOU COULDN'T BUILD A DWELLING IN IT ABOVE IT. 'CAUSE IT'S, IT COUNTS IT AS ORGANIZATIONAL. OH. MAIN STREET ALREADY HAS BUILT. WHAT DO YOU MEAN? BUT, BUT MY POINT IS, IF YOU WERE TO, SO ACCORDING TO THIS, SOMEWHERE THE C ONE, IF SOMEONE WENT AN ART GALLERY, THEY COULD NOT PUT RESIDENTIAL ABOVE IT. I THINK THAT'S WHY HERE IT ORIGINALLY SAID JUST NOT ON GROUND FLOOR BECAUSE IT ALLOWED FOR SOMETHING TO BE ABOVE A DIFFERENT USE THAT WASN'T TECHNICALLY COMMERCIAL. DO YOU MIND, DO YOU MIND JUST, I'M NOT QUITE GETTING THAT. SURE, SURE. SO, UM, IN THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE LISTED FOR UNDER COMMERCIAL TON OF STUFF, RIGHT? RIGHT. IF WE GO JUST BELOW THAT ORGANIZATIONAL, YOU COULD NOT HAVE A DWELLING UNIT ABOVE THIS IN THE WAY THAT WE ARE CURRENTLY PROPOSING TO REWRITE IT, WHEREAS THE ORIGINAL WOULD. OKAY. AND THAT, AND THAT ART GALLERY IS NOT AT ALL COMMERCIAL ACCORDING TO OUR CODE. NOT CONSIDERED IT'S UNDER ORGANIZATIONAL. IT'S ORGANIZATIONAL. SO IF, IF WE WERE TO INCLUDE THAT, WE'D HAVE TO INCLUDE THE SAME STATEMENT HERE AGAIN. RIGHT. UNDER ORGANIZATION, WHICH I THINK IS JUST UNNECESSARILY REPETITIVE. AND THEN WE'D JUST SAY JUST NOT ON GROUND FLOOR. I'M JUST TRYING TO THINK IT BY I SEE ON OUR GROUND FLOOR. I GUESS I WAS JUST THINKING THAT THAT ART GALLERY ON MAIN STREET HAS A COMMERCIAL ASPECT [02:10:01] TO IT WHERE IT SELLS ITS ART. I GUESS MOST ART GALLERIES DO MOST OH, ALL OUT GALLERIES DO. UNLESS THEY'RE MUSEUMS. YEAH. BUT THIS OF COURSE IS ART GALLERIES AND MUSEUMS. BUT I MEAN, WHY NOT MAKE IT JUST MOVE UP ABOVE THE SUBHEAD AND MAKE IT, CAN WE JUST ADD SINCE ART GALLERIES TO COMMERCIAL? YEAH. I, SINCE WE ARE NO THATWHERE SINCE WE HAVE IT BROKEN INTO CATEGORIES, I THINK WE HAVE TO BE REPETITIVE TO SOME EXTENT HERE TO COVER IT. IF WE WANT TO ALLOW THEM TO HAVE APARTMENTS ABOVE, UM, OUR GALLERY, THE ORIGINAL WORDING ALLOWS FOR IT ACROSS THE BOARD WITHOUT THE NECESSITATING REPETITIVENESS. AND WHAT, WHAT'S THE DANGER OF THIS ON, OF JUST HAVING IT ON THE GROUND FLOOR? WHAT WAS THE OF HAVING THE ORIGINAL SAYS, BUT NOT ON THE GROUND FLOOR? WELL, I'M TRYING TO ENCOURAGE RESIDENTIAL. I'M TRYING TO ENCOURAGE COMM UH, YES. RESIDENTIAL ABOVE COMMERCIAL IS THE EXACT, WHICH IS WHAT I MEAN, SINCE THE VAST MAJORITY OF WHAT'S GONNA BE IN C ONE IS ALREADY COMMERCIAL, IT DOES THAT BY DEFAULT. YEAH. UM, I'M, I'M JUST TRYING TO COME UP WITH A, IF IT A SITUATION WHERE BY NOT SAYING OVER COMMERCIAL, IT'S SOMETHING OTHER THAN COMMERCIAL. NOW YOU'RE PUTTING AN APARTMENT ABOVE IT. THAT WOULD BE OBJECTIONABLE. THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO RUN THROUGH MY MIND. YOU COULD, UM, BUT IN OUR USES, THE COMMERCIAL USE, RESIDENTIAL USE, I THINK IF WE JUST LOOK AT EVERYTHING THAT WE HAVE LISTED, THAT'S ALLOWED TO BE THERE ANYWAY. RIGHT. WHAT DO WE HAVE FOR MISCELLANEOUS? SO THAT'S GREAT. RAISE A GOOD POINT WITH THE BIG LOTS HYPOTHETICAL. MM-HMM . IT'S A SHOPPING CENTER. MM-HMM . SHOPPING CENTERS BY SPECIAL USE. MM-HMM . SO YOU CANNOT, YOU'D HAVE TO COME BACK. OH. IF YOU WANTED TO PROPOSE RESIDENCES ABOVE IT SURE. YOU'D HAVE TO COME BACK TO AMEND THIS SPECIAL USE PERMIT. I JUST WANTED TO ADDRESS THAT. NO, BUT IF, IF THIS IS NEW DEVELOPMENT IN CURRENT, I MEAN, I SAYING IS GONNA HAVE PARKS, WHAT'S HOME? OCCUPATIONS WORKING FOR A BUSINESS BUSINESS AT HOME AND SOMEONE WAS RUNNING, UH, LIKE A SMALL SALON OUT OF THEIR HOUSE OR SOMETHING. OH YEAH. , THAT'S NOT A HOME OCCUPATION. WE USED TO JOHN WITH ONE BOWL. I THOUGHT THERE. NO, I GUESS YOU COULD. I THOUGHT THAT WAS PERMITTED. YEAH. ONE CUSTOMER AT A TIME. YEAH. YEAH. I WAS A SINGLE CHAIR. SINGLE CHAIR. YEAH. RIGHT. YEAH. SO HOME OCCUPATIONS ARE PERMITTED IN THE C ONE AREA. THEY'RE, THEY'RE PERMITTED IN, IN THE YARD DISTRICT TOO. OKAY. IT'S A BUSINESS THAT YOU RUN OUTTA YOUR RESIDENCE, LIKE ONLINE SALES. YOU DO THAT. MM-HMM . IT. OKAY. I, THIS MAYBE HAVE THIS CONFLICTING, BUT I'LL GET BACK TO THIS IN A MINUTE. SO I DON'T THINK WE'RE GONNA SEE PEOPLE PUTTING, YOU KNOW, STILTS UP ABOVE A PUBLIC PARK AND SAYING, WELL, IT'S DWELLING, IT IS NOT ON THE GROUND FLOOR. I DON'T SEE THAT AS HAPPENING. I DON'T SEE THAT THERE BEING ANY, I AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT ISSUE. I MEAN, IF SOMEONE WANTS TO PUT THEIR HOUSE, LIKE THEIR HOME ABOVE WHERE THEIR SPECIAL CHILDCARE SERVICES ARE, I THINK THAT COULD MAKE SENSE. UM, YEAH. I CAN I, LET'S GO. GOING BACK, I CAN'T COME UP WITH A SCENARIO. THE, THE INTENT WAS TO ENCOURAGE ABOVE COMMERCIAL, BUT BY REMOVING, THAT DOESN'T DISCOURAGE ABOVE COMMERCIAL. OKAY. RIGHT. SO, I'M SORRY, I HAD TO TOO MEAN I HAD TO THINK THROUGH IT. , . IN THAT CASE, WHAT DO WE WANT TO SAY UP FOR THE SAKE OF SPECIFICITY? UP TO THREE RESIDENTIAL DWELLING UNITS OF ANY TYPE OR JUST KEEP THE ORIGINAL, HONESTLY, DWELLING UNITS IS NOT TO FIND, I DON'T WANT THAT. ANY TYPE IN THERE MYSELF. JUST DWELLING UNITS. YES. YEAH. OKAY. SO WE WE'RE, YOU JUST TAKE OUT THE COMMERCIAL. YEAH. WELL THE THING I'M DOING IS I'M JUST GONNA DELETE THIS JUST FOR THE SAKE OF MY EYES AND GOSH, DO IT. YOU CAN DO IT. IT'S THE KEYBOARD, I PROMISE. I KNOW. MOVE IT OVER A MILLI METER. THAT FINE. SO WE'RE NOT DOING THE UP TWO THAT YOU ORIGINALLY WE ARE WE, ARE WE THE THREE RESIDENTIAL DWELLING UNITS OVER GROUND FLOOR AND TAKEN OUT COMMERCIAL? IS THAT RIGHT? YEAH. WELL, I SAY, DO YOU WANNA SAY BUTTON ON THE GROUND FLOOR OR OVER THE GROUND FLOOR? YOU DON'T NEED THE WORD RESIDENTIAL. 'CAUSE IT'S ALREADY RESIDENTIAL. YEAH. ABOVE GROUND FOUR. OH, I OVER GROUND OVER GROUND FOUR. ABOVE GROUND FOUR. I DON'T KNOW. DO WE HAVE A PREFERENCE ON THE TERM THAT THEY ABOVE GROUND FLOOR. [02:15:04] OKAY. DO YOU SAY PER BUILDING? UH, WELL AS TO BE IMPLIED. OKAY. THAT'S JUST IN CASE. THERE ARE ACTUALLY TWO FLOORS OF THE BUSINESS AND THEY'RE PUTTING SOMETHING UP ON THE THIRD FLOOR. SO IT JUST NEEDS TO BE ABOVE. YEAH. OR NOT ON THE GROUND BECAUSE IT, YOU COULD, YOU MEAN YOU COULD HAVE A THREE STORY BUILDING AND COMMERCIAL ON THE BOTTOM AND PART COMMERCIAL ON THE SECOND FLOOR, BUT THEN DO DWELLING UNITS ALSO. NOW THIS, THIS WAS HELPFUL. THIS WAS HELPFUL. DWELLING UNITS ON THE THIRD FLOOR, IF YOU HAVE THE SQUARE FOOTAGE. UM, THE THING I WANTED TO CIRCLE BACK THAT I'M SAYING MIGHT BE A DISCREPANCY THAT WE HAVE HERE, IF WE'RE GONNA ALLOW HOME OCCUPATIONS BY RIGHT. BUT NOT ALLOW SOMEONE TO BUILD A HOUSE BY. RIGHT. WELL, THE HOME OCCUPATION, YOU STILL HAVE EXISTING RESIDENTIAL MM-HMM . STRUCTURES. MM-HMM . WE IN THE COMMERCIAL DISTRICT. SO THOSE CAN HAVE HOME OCCUPATIONS. SURE. AND THEN IF YOU SPECIAL USE PERMANENT NEW HOUSE, THEN THEY CAN, I ACTUALLY THOUGHT ABOUT THAT ONE. OKAY. NO, GOOD . YOU DON'T MIND WHEN WE NO, NO, YOU'RE RIGHT. YOU'RE RIGHT. IT WAS OKAY. SO THEN YOU'RE SPECIAL USE. NOW YOU'RE, YEAH. ESPECIALLY USED SINGLE FAMILY TOWN HOMES, MULTI-FAMILY. BUT THEN YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK. I TOSSED IN APARTMENTS, SINCE WE'RE NOT ON THOSE DWELLINGS ANYMORE, THERE'S GONNA BE THEIR OWN UNITS AND I'M HAPPY TO TAKE IT BACK OUT. BUT I THINK A COMMERCIAL AREA IS A GREAT SPOT FOR APARTMENTS. POTENTIALLY. POTENTIALLY ON SPECIAL USE PERMIT. ESPECIALLY PROBLEM WITH THAT. APARTMENTS OR APARTMENT HOUSES, THERE'S A DIFFERENT TERMINOLOGY, RIGHT? DO YOU MEAN APARTMENTS OR APARTMENT? WE, WE HAVE A DEFINED APARTMENT. SO IT SHOULD BE APARTMENT HOUSE. YEAH. APARTMENT HOUSES. THERE'S APARTMENT. UM, THERE WERE, UH, IT WAS A WEIRD ONE. UM, AND THEN SHOULD WE BRING THIS BACK? MM-HMM . THAT SHOULD BE, WHAT DO WE BRING THEM BACK? I'M SORRY? WHERE? APARTMENT HOUSE WOULD BE THE, I BELIEVE IS THE, OH, APARTMENT DEVELOPMENT. YES. THAT'S A PROPERTY THAT IS MORE THAN ONE APARTMENT HOUSE. SO APARTMENT HOUSE. YEP. ADDED, YOU KNOW, PUT THAT OUT IN, SO DID YOU TAKE SOMETHING ELSE OR JUST ADD APARTMENT, HOUSE? I JUST ADDED APARTMENT HOUSE. OKAY. SHOULD IT BE APARTMENT? I'M HOUSES EVERYTHING ELSE? IT'S HOUSE. THIS IS PLURAL. JOHN, WOULD YOU LOOK UP THAT IT WAS HOUSE NOT HOUSES, RIGHT? YES. IT'S, YES. IT, THE, THE DEFINITION IS APARTMENT HOUSE. BUT I'M ASKING IF WE SHOULD, THIS IS CURRENTLY STRUCK THROUGH AND I'M WONDERING IF WE SHOULD BRING IT BACK. YEAH. IS THE SEPARATE FORM. YEAH, WE SHOULD BRING THAT BACK. OKAY. UM, WHY WE BRING IT BACK? BECAUSE WE SAID UP TO THREE PREVIOUSLY, WE BRING IT BACK. UH, THIS IS WHAT STRUCK FROM US. YEAH. THE, UH, APARTMENT DWELLING UNITS. THAT WAS NOT ME. UNITS DID THAT. OKAY. SO THIS IS FROM, AND WE'RE GONNA LEAVE THAT IN. WE'RE GONNA BE, YEAH. SO I'M GONNA REJECT THAT SUGGESTION. RIGHT. SO WE'RE GOING TO MODIFY THAT. OKAY. AND I CASE I'LL LEAVE IT ALONE BECAUSE YOU'RE, YOU'RE, OKAY. SO YOU HAVE APARTMENT, HOUSE UNDER RESIDENTIAL MM-HMM . OKAY. SO DOWN UNDER WHERE YOU'RE STRIKING RESIDENTIAL MM-HMM . APARTMENTS SHOULD BE TAKEN THE DWELLING UNITS WITH FOUR MORE. THAT SHOULD HAVE IT HERE. SO THIS, THIS IS, THIS IS GONNA GET MESSY. I'M GONNA TYPE IN WHAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT. THIS IS BRING BACK MY, MY ISSUE THAT I MENTIONED WITH THE ZONING ADMINISTRATOR. THE PROBLEM WITH THE STRICKEN SENTENCE IS THE WORD APARTMENTS. THERE'S NO SUCH THING OTHER THAN DWELLING UNITS. THE ONLY PLACE AN APARTMENT CAN EXIST IS IN AN APARTMENT HOUSE. RIGHT. AND THAT'S WHAT WE WANT TO, OKAY. SO THAT, THAT'S THE WORD THAT CREATED THE PROBLEM. YEAH. SHE'S FIXING, SHE'S FIXING IT. SO LET GO WITH THAT. WELL, IN UNITS WITH FOUR OR MORE UNITS OR WHERE LOCATED TWO DIVISIONS. 9.7. SO WHAT HAPPENS HERE IS SOME COULD COME IN FOR A SPECIAL USE PERMIT AND ASKING FOR THE DWELLING UNITS TO BE ON THE GROUND FLOOR. MM-HMM . OR THEY, OR A SPECIAL USE PERMIT FOR HAVING FOUR OR MORE UNITS. MM-HMM . SO YOU COULD HAVE A COMMERCIAL BUILDING. THEY COULD COME IN WITH A SPECIAL USE PERMIT AND PUT THE DWELLING UNITS ON THE GROUND FLOOR WITH A SPECIAL USE PERMIT. OR IF THEY WANT TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF FOUR OR MORE IS ANOTHER SPEC, UH, THAT WOULD REQUIRE A SPECIAL USE PERMIT. SINCE IT'S SPECIAL USE PERMIT. IT MIGHT BE APPLICABLE. MIGHT BE OKAY. MIGHT BE OKAY. ON THE GROUND FLOOR. ON THE GROUND FLOOR. [02:20:01] AND FOR SPEC. THAT'S PART OF THAT GIVES CONTROL TO DETERMINE. RIGHT. AND THAT'S WHY WE WOULD, HERE WERE APARTMENTS. THAT'S WHY APARTMENTS CAN ONLY BE IN AN APARTMENT HOUSE. RIGHT. THAT'S WHAT WE WANTED. AND IF THERE'S A DESIRE TO REDUCE, UH, THE DEFINITION OF DWELLING UNIT FOR PURPOSES OF AN APARTMENT HOUSE, THAT CAN HAPPEN. BUT, UH, I, I DON'T KNOW THAT IT EXISTS ANYWHERE. SO IT WOULD BE 600 YES. FOR AN APARTMENT HOUSE AS CURRENTLY DRAFTED, RIGHT? MM-HMM . WELL, WELL, THE IDEA IS THAT WE'RE GONNA BE WRITING A DEFINITION FOR APARTMENT UNIT WOULD BE DIFFERENT. THAT WILL BE ADDRESSING THAT. RIGHT. AND THAT WOULD BE THAT, THAT, THAT ALSO FALLS IN THE CATEGORY OF RESEARCH. YEAH. MM-HMM . I, I DON'T KNOW IF SOMETHING SMALLER THAN 600 IS PRACTICAL. I, I AM NOT SURE. I MEAN, UH, FROM DEPARTMENT, I MEAN FOR IF IT'S A STUDIO, BUT ONLY, BUT AGAIN, I I, I KNOW WHEN RE RESEARCHING THE ADUS, THOSE WENT DOWN AS WELL AS 400 IN SOME JURISDICTION. OKAY. UM, SO WE, WE, WE ALLOW CURRENTLY, AGAIN, WELL WE NEED TO CHANGE THE CODE. IT SAYS NO DWELLING UNIT SHALL BE LESS THAN 250 SQUARE FEET. WHAT, WHERE IS THAT IN C TWO? THAT'S IN THE C TWO. SO THAT'S WHY THAT'S A CARETAKER QUOTA. AND THAT'S WHY CARETAKER SAYS, WELL, THE DOG HOUSE, THE DOG FOR THE GRAND, THE GRANNY FLAT . . THAT'S NOT RIGHT. ALRIGHT, WELL, SO ARE WE GOOD WITH HOW THIS IS WRITTEN AS IT STANDS? SO WE CAN SCROLL, WE CAN SCROLL. THAT'S, THAT REQUIRES A SPECIAL USE FROM A DISC. YES. THIS IS ALL, THIS IS ALL UNDER SPECIAL USE SECTION. OKAY. WITH WITH CONSIDERED EXCEPTIONS. UM, THE GARAGES, PARKING LOTS, MAYBE DAYCARES, FARM MARKETS, YOU KNOW, SHOPPING CENTERS, GREAT DISTRIBUTIONS, WHOLESALE SCHOOLS. UM, THAT WAS A, A WORDING THING WAS FUNNY. AH, OKAY. ALL MAKES SENSE. MM-HMM . SO REALLY QUICKLY, RECENT TRENDS FROM AI, SOME CITIES HAVE BEEN RE REVISING MINIMUM DOWNWARD TO ALLOW MICRO UNIT, SOMETIMES THE SMALLEST 220 TO 350 SQUARE FEET. THIS ISN'T TOKYO . YEAH. THE MICRO UNITS. I THOSE THROUGH THIS, WHEN THEY WANTED TO PUT 95 APARTMENTS IN BUILDING, THEY WERE GONNA PUT, SOMEBODY WAS GONNA PUT IN APARTMENTS. OH, YOU TALKING ABOUT BAY LAWN FRANCHISE NAME? YEAH. RIGHT. YES. WHAT DID THE SUP SAY AS FAR AS SIZE? CAN'T REMEMBER. IT WAS ADDRESS. WASN'T IT A S NUMBER? I CAN'T REMEMBER. I THINK IT WAS, I'D HAVE TO CHECK SMALL, RIGHT? I THINK SO, BECAUSE IT WASN'T, I WOULD LOOK AT THAT. YEAH, THAT'S, THERE'S ONE OF THE HEIGHTS RIGHT THERE. STRUCTURES OF HEIGHT OF 45 TO 70 FEET. AND THIS IS IN ANY RESIDENCE ON 70 FEET. UM, HEIGHT. IT'S LIKE SEVEN STORIES. HOW MANY STORIES? SEVEN. OKAY. BUT WE'RE IN COMMERCIAL AREAS HERE NOW, BUT STILL SEVEN STORIES IS, IS IT TALL? REAL TALL. THAT WOULD BE THE TALLEST THING IN THE, THAT'D BE THE TALLEST BUILDING IN TOWN, BASICALLY. DO WE HAVE ANYTHING IN TOWN THAT, NOT AS FAR AS I KNOW COULD BE WRONG. UM, LET'S SEE. THE HOSPITAL I THINK IS, WHAT, 40 FEET? THAT'S IT. IT'S NOT THAT TALL. WELL, IT DOES REALLY TALL BECAUSE IT'S ON THE HILL. YEAH, WE'RE LOOKING UP ON THE HILL. BUT, UM, THAT'S 40 FEET. I MEAN, LOOK, YOU, YOU'RE STANDARD, UH, SINGLE FAMILY HOUSE, TWO STORIES WITH AN ATTIC, AFRAME ROOF. UM, YOU'RE LOOKING AT ABOUT 30 YEAH. ON, ON THE, ON THE HIGH END. AND IT DEPENDS ON HOW, WHAT, UH, CEILING HEIGHT YOU HAVE ON YOUR FIRST FLOOR. BUT IF YOU'RE SAYING LIKE, THAT'S SPECIAL USE EIGHT TO 10 OR EIGHT TO 12 ON THE FIRST AND THEN EIGHT ON THE SECOND, THEN OH, THIS IS 39 DWELLING SIZE. YEAH. I, I DON'T, I DIDN'T CHANGE ANYTHING HERE. I DIDN'T NOTHING. ALMOST COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT INTENT. THE DIVIDE, THE PROPERTY THAT'S CONSULTANT DID WHAT IS EVEN THAT'S THAT MEAN, I DUNNO. [02:25:01] UM, BEING GONE DOESN'T HURT MY FEELING. NO. . I'M NOT HURT ABOUT IT. UM, ADULT BOOK. OKAY. DO WE WANT, DO WE WANNA PUT ADULT BOOK STORE IN THERE TOO? IN THE ? UM, WHERE, WHERE'S THAT? RIGHT HERE? CAN WE JUST NOT MENTION IT? CAN WE JUST LEAVE THAT OUT? WAIT, WAIT, WHERE? I DON'T REMEMBER. SORRY. IS THIS UH, 6.9 0.3 B EXCLUSIVELY? BALL, WOOD, ALL THEM YARDS? EVERYTHING. OH, EXCLUSIVELY, YEAH. EXCLUSIVE. YEAH. YEAH. OH, OKAY. SO IT IS NOT, OKAY. YEAH, THAT WAS WAS I THOUGHT, I CAN'T BELIEVE WE MISSED A DOPE BOOKSTORE. EXCLUSIVE OF ACCESSORY USE. WE HAVE WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? I'M SORRY, COULD YOU REPEAT THAT SPECIFICALLY? EXCLUSIVE OIL. IT'S NOT, THOSE ARE NOT ALLOWED ACCESSORY USES OF THE WOOD OIL. LUMBER LARGE. SAY THAT BECAUSE THERE'S A COMMA AFTER LUMBER GUARDS. SIMPLY EXCLUSIVE OF COAL WOOD. SO THAT'S NOT PERMITTED OF THOSE. IT WOULD BE GRAMMATICALLY IMPLIED, I WOULD THINK. I KNOW IF THE COMMS AFTER LUMBER YARDS AND AFTER YEAH. WE HAVE OUR OWN THING ON THE, YOU KNOW, GRAMMATICAL THING. WHAT, WHAT WOULD YOU CHANGE? WE'LL MAKE LUMBER YARDS SINGLE AND GET RID OF THE CU WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT THERE? OKAY, IT'S THIS HERE. SHE SAYING IT'S SPECIFICALLY EXCLUSIVE LIKE COAL WOOD OIL AND OIL AND LUMBER YARDS. ACCESSORY USES ONE. THIS IS WHY WE HAVE ANDS IN OUR LOOK AFTER. UM, ALL RIGHT, SO I'M GONNA THROW SOMETHING TOGETHER. LEMME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK TAKING OUT AND YEP. PUTTING A COMMA AFTER OIL. SO NOW WE GET OUR NICE OXFORD COMMA IN THERE. OR WE COULD ACTUALLY JUST TAKE OUT THIS AND AS WELL AND SHOULD WE SAY AS ACCESSORY USES AND THEIR ACCESSORY USES AND THEIR ACCESSORIES. THERE YOU GO. WHERE DID YOU PUT IN THEIR ACCESSORY USES? SO IT NOW SAYS COAL, WOOD, OIL, LUMBER, YARDS AND THEIR ACCESSORY USES. THANK YOU. MM-HMM . UH, NO ADULT BOOKSTORES. FANTASTIC MASSAGE PILOTS AND STORES ENGAGED IN SALE. OKAY. GOTCHA. SO TO CLARIFY, IF SOMEBODY WANTED TO OPEN A NON ALTERNATIVE, WE'LL CALL IT MASSAGE PARLOR, JUST ACTUAL, YOU KNOW, GOOD MASSAGE, THAT WOULD NOT FALL UNDER THIS BECAUSE IT IS NOT ENGAGED THEN IN THE SALE OF SEXUALIZED DEVICES. MERCHANDISE. CORRECT. SO IT WILL STILL ALLOW FOR RIGHT THEN THOSE, RIGHT. AND IT'S NOT THERAPIST, IT'S NOT A PART OF YEAH. THEY HAVE TO HAVE THEIR RIGHT. WE ALLOW THOSE WHEN THEY HAVE THEIR LICENSE, RIGHT. UH, FROM THE STATE MM-HMM . AND THOSE ARE ALLOWED IN THE COMMERCIAL DISTRICT WE'RE UNDER. RIGHT. UM, WE MAY PUT IT UNDER, UH, SINCE THEY'RE LICENSE, I THINK IN THE PAST WE MAY HAVE BEEN PUTTING THOSE UNDER, UH, PROFESSIONAL AND BUSINESS OFFICES. OKAY. OH, RIGHT UNDER, I REMEMBER TALKING ABOUT THOSE BEFORE IT WAS STUFF. OKAY, GOOD. OR PERSONAL SERVICES WE MAKE. IT HAS TO DO WITH WHO'S PERFORMING THE MASSAGES, RIGHT? YES. THEY HAVE TO BE LICENSED. THEY HAVE TO BE LICENSED. YES. I THINK MAYBE WE PUT IT UNDER PERSONAL SERVICES OR OFFERING A PERSONAL SERVICE MEDICALLY OR HOWEVER YOU WANT TO MM-HMM . BECAUSE THEY ARE LICENSED BY THE STATE TO DO PHYSICAL THERAPY OR RIGHT. HOWEVER YOU WANT TO LABEL THAT. UM, SEXUAL AGE DEVICES OR MERCHANDISE, UH, YOU'LL HAVE MY AND OR DEVICE. DOES THAT WORK? OKAY. SO CLIENT, DID YOU SEE THAT? YEAH. COLUMN AFTER DEVICES. AND THEN THIS IS OVER. JUST SAVE THIS DOCUMENT TOO, TO GIVE TO YOU. SAY AGAIN. THIS IS OUT. YOU BROUGHT THIS UP OUT OF THE EMAIL, RIGHT? I JUST, NO, NO, I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE, JUST WANNA SAVE IT SO WE DON'T ACTUALLY CLOSE IT. YEAH. WE WANT TO SAVE THE DOCUMENT. YOU'RE, YOU'RE WORKING ON MEGAN? YES. OH, ABSOLUTELY. I'M NOT CLOSING THIS. YOU TO SAVE, SAVE IT TO YOU WANT IT SAVED BECAUSE I THINK YOU OPENED THIS OUT OF AN EMAIL. YES, I DID. ALRIGHT. UM, SO BEFORE WE GET TO MINIMUM UNIT SIZE, WHICH IS SCARY ITSELF. FIVE, 6,000 AND 1500 PRE TRADITIONAL, SO, RIGHT. SO, SO BASICALLY, SO IF YOU HAVE NOW WE GO, IF, IF YOU HAVE A COMMERCIAL BUILDING, THAT MEANS IF YOU WANNA DO RESIDENTIAL USES FOR MORE, UH, [02:30:01] THAT LOT HAS TO HAVE 6,000 SQUARE FEET TO GET STARTED. SO NOT EVERY COMMERCIAL BUILDING CAN HAVE A RESIDENTIAL DWELLING UNIT ABOVE THAT. IF YOU'RE DOING FOUR OR MORE, THEN WE HAD TO LOOK AT THE LOT SIZE MM-HMM . SO IT'S LIMITED THERE. YOU HAD TO HAVE 6,000 FOR THE FIRST UNIT, THEN ADDITIONAL 1500 SQUARE FOOT OF THE LOT FOR EACH ADDITIONAL UNIT. YEAH, THAT OKAY. OKAY. SO THIS IS NOT REFERRING TO THE APARTMENTS OVER BIG LOTS. THIS IS NEW CONSTRUCTION. NO, THIS IS, THIS IS THE LOT SIZE ON WHICH THE BUILDING IS ON WHICH THE UNITS ARE UP. OKAY. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SIZE OF THE BUILDING ITSELF. OKAY. IN PARTICULAR, THE SIZE OF THE, OF THE LAND THAT IT'S ON, THERE'S A LOT TO DO. IT'S NEW CONSTRUCTION. IT WOULD NO BE THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE, SO YOU HAVE A COMMERCIAL, EXISTING COMMERCIAL BUILDING. OKAY. IF THE LOT, WE'LL SAY IF THE LOT IS 5,000 SQUARE FEET, THEY CANNOT DO FOUR UNITS ABOVE THERE. EVEN THOUGH THE SQUARE FOOTAGE OF THE BUILDING WILL ALLOW THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, IT'S, IT IS JUST ANOTHER LIMITATION. YES. YEAH. RIGHT. SO IF YOU UNDERSTAND MM-HMM . OKAY. SO IF YOU'RE DOING FOUR OR MORE, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A MINIMUM LOT SIZE OF 6,000 SQUARE FEET. THEN THE LOT FOR EACH ADDITIONAL UNIT, YOU HAVE TO HAVE 1500 SQUARE FOOT OF THE LOT, THE LOT. THEN THE UNIT STILL HAS TO BE 600 SQUARE FEET AS YOU INCREASE THE NUMBERS. IS THAT MM-HMM . OKAY. YEAH. YEAH, THAT'S FINE. NO, FINE. YEAH. NOW WHEN YOU GET UNDER B HERE, GEORGE, THEY DON'T THREE SQUARE FEET OLD GUY. SO WHAT THEY'RE SAYING IS YOU CAN HAVE A 300 SQUARE FOOT APARTMENT OR A DWELLING UNIT AND ONLY 50 FEET OF THAT CAN BE, IT NEEDS TO BE YOUR, UH, BATHROOM CLOSET STORAGE SPACE. . IF WE JUST STRUCK THAT ALL WOULD B WOULD, WOULD IT BE COVERED ELSEWHERE? WELL, WE WOULD HAVE TO, IT DEPENDS ON IF WE ARE THEN GONNA MAKING APARTMENTS, ALLOWING UH, AN APARTMENT UNIT. WE MAKE THAT DEFINITION. IF WE ALLOW APARTMENT UNITS TO BE LESS THAN 600 SQUARE FEET AND DWELLING UNITS WE KEEP AT 600, THEN THIS NEEDS TO BE DELINEATED TO SAY IF YOU'RE DOING DWELLING UNITS AS DWELLING UNITS, IF YOU'RE DOING APARTMENT UNITS AS APARTMENTS, YES. THAT DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN, SO LET'S, LET'S JUST GO AND DO THAT. LET'S STRIKE THROUGH THIS AND JUST REWRITE B. SO YOU WOULD HAVE TO, WE WOULD HAVE TO LOOK. UM, 'CAUSE NOW YOU'RE ADDING APARTMENT HOUSES AS A USE HERE. YEAH. CORRECT. AND WE HAVEN'T DEFINED APARTMENT UNIT YET. NO. RIGHT. SO IN THAT CASE, DO WE WANT TO DEFINE APARTMENT UNIT BEFORE WE TRY TO REWRITE THIS? MM-HMM . OKAY. LEMME SEE IF I CAN FIND SOMETHING IN HERE. HAVE MY BOOK WITH ME. YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE THAT BOOK DO YOU? NO. WHICH ONE? I CAN GET IT. GET, TAKE A LOOK IN THERE JUST TO SEE. SO YOU CAN SEE WHERE THIS DEFINITION OR THIS NARRATIVE IS IN CONFLICT WITH THE DEFINITION OF DWELLING UNIT, RIGHT? RIGHT. BUT IT DEPENDS ON THE, WELL IT REFERS TO DWELLING UNIT. YEAH, OF COURSE. WHICH IS DEFINED. YES. AND THEN YEAH, FUN STUFF. UM, AFTER WE'RE FINALLY FINISHED WITH ALL THIS, I DO WONDER IF IN 20 YEARS OR SO WHEN SOMEONE'S LOOKING BACK OVER THIS AND THEY'RE LOOK AT WHAT WE WROTE AND GO, WHY DID THESE PEOPLE THINK TO DO THAT THE SAME WAY THAT WE'RE DOING . ALL RIGHT. SO, UH, IF WE CAN'T, IF THERE'S SOMETHING PERTINENT IN THAT BOOK, THEN AT LEAST THERE WE CAN AVOID, ACTUALLY WE COULD MAKE THIS REALLY SIMPLE. THE MINIMUM AVERAGE UNIT SIZE PER DWELLING UNIT OR APARTMENT UNIT SHALL, UH, B UH, EQUAL TO THAT WHICH IS LISTED IN THE DEFINITIONS. IT DEFINED. YEAH. DEFINED SOMEWHERE LISTED AS DEFINED AS DEFINED. MINIMUM AVERAGE UNIT SIZES PER DWELL UNIT OR APARTMENT UNIT ARE AS DEFINED. YEAH. LEAVE IT AT THAT. YEAH. ONLY THE REST OF THIS GO FOR IT. I LIKE IT RATHER THAN FOR THE NUMBER I'M TYPING IT , [02:35:04] THERE'S SOMEONE I, OKAY, SO IT'S THE MINIMUM AVERAGE UNIT SIZE FLOOR AREA PER DWELLING UNIT OR APARTMENT UNIT SHALL BE AS DEFINED. YEAH. AND THEN THAT GETS YOU NO, WE DON'T HAVE TO SAY WHAT WE JUST GET RID OF IT. THAT'S RIGHT. BACK TO THE DEFINITION. AND GOING BACK TO APARTMENT OR I SAY DEFENDANT, DEFENDANT AND THEN DELETE THE REST OF THE PARAGRAPH. YEP. OKAY. SO YOU SAID THE MINIMUM AVERAGE UNIT SIZE IN FLOOR AREA PER DWELLING UNIT OR APARTMENT UNIT AS DEFINED SHALL BE AS DEFINED, SHALL BE AS DEFINED. APARTMENT UNIT SHALL BE AS DEFINED. OKAY. OR APARTMENT UNIT SHALL APARTMENT. AND THAT WAY IT'LL MAKE IT EASIER AS WELL. IF IN THE FUTURE WE CHANGE EITHER THOSE DEFINITIONS, THIS DOESN'T HAVE TO NO LONGER COMES IN CONFLICT. LET'S SEE. UNIT, DOES THAT WORK WITHIN A BUILDING? FOUR LONG UNITS WHERE EACH UNIT IS INDEPENDENTLY ACCESSIBLE, SELF-CONTAINED OR ATTENDED OR PERMANENT RESIDENTIAL ANCY. EACH APARTMENT SHALL INCLUDE CROOK, SLEEPING AND SANITARY FACILITIES. EXCLUSIVE TO THAT UNIT. IT'S ONE DEFINITION. WE'RE BETTER OFF ACTUALLY. KEEP GOING. NO, NO, NO. THIS IS FOR THE DEFINITION. DEFINITION OF APARTMENT UNIT. BUT LET'S SEE IF HE HAS APARTMENT UNIT IN THERE. IF NOT, WE COULD MAYBE ENTERTAIN THIS ONE. UM, WE HAVE GARDEN APARTMENT DWELLING, HIGHRISE DWELLING, MIDRISE DWELLING, MULTIFAMILY PATIO, SEASONAL DWELLING, TOWNHOUSE DWELLING, TRIPLEX. TWO FAMILY EFFICIENCY DWELLING UNIT, UH, ARE ALSO KNOWN AS STUDIO APARTMENTS TYPICALLY CONTAINED BETWEEN TWO AND 400 SQUARE FEET. UM, AND THEY DON'T GIVE A SIZE ON THE APARTMENT. WELL WE, IF JOHN MISSED THAT WHILE WE'RE OUT OF THE ROOM OR HE'S OUTTA THE ROOM ON THAT. BUT YOU GOT, WHAT ARE YOU, WE NAVIGATED THE PROBLEM BECAUSE YEAH, WHEN IT COMES TO SEE THE, WHAT'S IN, IF YOU LOOK UP AT THE SCREEN, THE MINIMUM UNIT SIZE, WE DON'T HAVE THE DEFINITION, BUT WE JUST KIND OF BYPASSED IT. THE MINIMUM AVERAGE UNIT SIZE SHALL BE ESTE DEFINED. SO WE DON'T HAVE TO GO THROUGH AND DEFINE IT HERE AT THIS POINT. RIGHT. WE WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO DEFINE DEPARTMENT UNIT GONNA HAVE TO BE, IS GONNA BE DEFINITION. SO, BUT THIS MINIMUM UNIT SIZE, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LIST THAT EXCLUSIVELY FOR APARTMENT HOUSE. WELL, IT SAYS DWELLING UNIT OR APARTMENT UNIT BECAUSE THE APARTMENT HOUSE IS A, IS GONNA HAVE MULTIPLE APARTMENT UNITS WITHIN IT. RIGHT? RIGHT. AND SO THE MINIMUM UNIT SIZE IS JUST GONNA BE HOWEVER REDEFINE APARTMENT UNIT. RIGHT. WHICH WE HAVE NOT YET DONE, BUT WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT IN C ONE. BUT I I, I THINK AT THIS POINT, UNDER B, WHEN YOU JUST LIST MINIMUM UNIT SIZE, THAT LEAVES A LITTLE BIT FOR INTERPRETATION. WHAT, WHAT IS THAT FOR? IT'S UNDER RESIDENTIAL, BUT IT, TO ME, I THINK GEORGE, WOULD YOU THINK THAT WE SHOULD PUT MINIMUM APARTMENT UNIT SIZE? COULD, IF YOU COULD SCROLL UP SO I CAN SEE WHERE, WHAT OUR HEADING IS HERE [02:40:01] AREA. OKAY. HMM. THE INTENT OF THAT UNDER MINIMUM UNIT SIZE IS RESIDENTIAL. I'M WONDERING WHY THERE'S A B THAT'S ACTUALLY A POINT. THAT WAS MY ORIGINAL CONCEPT. RIGHT? THAT WHY, WHY IS THERE A B? YEAH. BECAUSE NOW WE'RE DOING LOT SIZE AND NOW THAT IS UNIT SIZE. RIGHT? RIGHT. I'M, I'M ALL, IT'S NOT RELEVANT TO AREA REGULATION. RIGHT. THAT HAS TO BE PUT. UM, IT SHOULDN'T GO THERE . SO DID I JUST HIT DELETE OVERALL? NO, NO. WE WANT THAT SOMEWHERE, BUT IT SHOULD NOT BE UNDER LOT SIZE AND AREA REGULATION. I MEAN AREA REGULATION IS DEALING WITH A LOT. THEY PUT IT UNDER THERE BECAUSE IT, IT'S UNDER AREA REGULATION OF THE UNIT. QUESTION. THEN WHAT IF WE, IF WE DID JUST DELETE THIS ENTIRELY AND WE DEFINE APARTMENT UNIT AS BEING A MINIMUM WHATEVER, WHATEVER, HOWEVER THAT NEEDS BE, THEN THE MINIMUMS ARE ALREADY PRESENT IN THE CODE AND WE DON'T NEED TO THEN SPECIFY IT AGAIN. THE ONLY REASON I SPECIFIED HERE IS BECAUSE IT'S DIFFERENT, I THINK. RIGHT. I AGREE WITH THAT , BUT WE'LL HAVE TO, BUT WE WILL HAVE TO PUT THAT. OH, OKAY. OKAY. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DEFINE THE YES. APARTMENT UNIT SIZE. APARTMENT UNIT SIZE MINIMUM. MM-HMM . HAVE TO DO, WELL, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO DEFINE WHAT AN APARTMENT UNIT IS AND, AND THEN THE SIZE WITHIN AND PLACE THE SIZE. MM-HMM . OR DO WE WANT TO TRY YOU'RE DISTINGUISH THE DWELLING UNIT. YES. WE'RE NOT GONNA DO THAT SINCE IT'S NOT IN THERE. THE APARTMENT UNIT'S NOT IN THERE. DO WE WANT DO THAT RIGHT NOW? NO. THE COMPUTER JUST DIE. NO, WE CAN'T. I DON'T HAVE A BLOOD FOR IT. WELL, WE, I HAD SAVED IT. WE STILL HAVE, WE STILL HAVE ALL, WE STILL HAVE ALL THE CHANGES IN HERE. YES. YES. OKAY. I 'CAUSE WE WE DON'T WANT TO TRY TO DO APARTMENT UNIT RIGHT NOW TO DEFINE IT. RIGHT. I THINK I NEED A LITTLE MORE RESEARCH ON NEED MORE RESEARCH. OKAY. I THINK, I MEAN WE GOT A WHOLE LIST OF THINGS THAT NEED TO BE DEFINITIONS. LET ME AMEN. I SAID EARLIER ABOUT PUBLIC LIBRARY, SHE AND I JUST MADE IT LAST. IT IS MORE THAN, IT IS MORE THAN JUST THE PUBLIC ACCESS. I DIDN'T BLOCK OUT IT IS OWNED OR CONTROLLED BY A PUBLIC, BY A GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY. OH. OH, OKAY. OWNED BY A GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY. OKAY. OWNED OR CONTROLLED BY, SORRY, I MISSED, I AM AMENDING WHAT I SAID EARLIER ABOUT PUBLIC LIBRARY. IT'S NOT JUST SIMPLY OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. IT WOULD ALSO BE OWNED BY OWNED OR CONTROLLED BY A GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY LIBRARY. IS IT NONCONFORMING NOW? . OH GOD. SHE NOT OPEN AT ALL. OKAY. WE'LL BE RIGHT ALONG. OKAY. SO WE HAVE, UH, SO 75 TO 50 AND 50 OR 90 TO 50. THIS IS THE CONSULTANT THING. OKAY. SO NOW WE'RE GOING TO, WELL WE'RE IN SIX. WE'RE STILL 6.9 FOOT FOUR. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THERE'S THIS LOT WIDTH. YEAH. SO WE DON'T WANTING TO REDUCE THAT FROM 75 TO 50 MM-HMM . IN THE CORNER LOT. WELL THE CORNER LOT USUALLY NEEDS TO BE BIGGER. YEAH. NOT THE SAME. WHY WOULD, WHY WOULD THEN YOU'RE KNIT NOT DIFFERENTIATING. NOPE. SO AN INTERIOR LOT, YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING? MM-HMM . I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY DID THAT BECAUSE, SO THAT TO ME THE INTERIOR LOT OR THE CORNER LOT NEEDS TO BE BIGGER. WHAT ABOUT MAKING IT 60? WELL THAT'S JUST AN, WE'RE JUST PULLING NUMBERS OUT THE AIRPLANE. WELL THERE'S ORIGINALLY THERE WAS A, A, UM, 15 FOOT DIFFERENCE. SO THEN LET'S CONTINUE A 15 FOOT DIFFERENCE. WHAT KIND? 65. 65. LET'S KEEPING THE RATIO THE SAME BUT ALLOWING FOR A REDUCTION. OKAY. I I I'M BACK TO, WE'RE WE'RE JUST PICKING A NUMBER. WELL, IT LOOKS LIKE THEY PICKED A NUMBER TO BRING . I, I'M, I'M NOT, I'M NOT JUSTIFYING WHAT THEY DID. SURE. I THINK WE DO DETERMINE THAT THAT'S WHAT THEY DID IS PROBABLY TOO SMALL. UM, BUT AGAIN, PROBABLY FAMOUS WORD. UM, I HATE JUST PICKING, PICKING A NUMBER WITHOUT SAYING, WELL WE KNOW BECAUSE OF THE CORNER LOTS AND THE WAY TRAFFIC FLOWS AND UTILITY EVENINGS AND SO ON, ON THE CORNER AND POLES AND LIGHTS OR WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE THAT THIS AMOUNT OF SQUARE FOOTAGE OR FOOTAGE IS REQUIRED AS OPPOSED TO JUST SAYING THE NUMBER AND GOING BACK WHEN IT WAS 75. [02:45:01] IT'S BEEN WORKING, YOU KNOW, I HAVE SOME THOUGHT WENT INTO IT WHEN IT ORIGINALLY WAS 75. I, I DON'T KNOW. WELL, CAN WE ASSUME THAT THE CONSULTANT WHO CHANGED IT ALSO HAD DONE SOME THAT RESEARCH? WELL, BASED ON EVERYTHING ELSE YOU'VE SEEN, 15, 50 BASED ON EVERYTHING ELSE YOU'VE SEEN IN HERE, COULD, WOULD YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE MAKING THAT ASSUMPTION? NO. NO. WELL, A LOT OF THE STUFF WAS PRETTY GOOD, RIGHT? WE, WE'VE WE'VE EXCHANGED A FAIR AMOUNT OF WHAT THE, I MEAN, YES. I MEAN I'M SURE THINGS HAVE, I'M SURE NOT A LOT OF STUFF, NOT BUSINESS, BUT I MEAN IF THE, WE KEEP THE RATIO. YEAH. I, I THINK THE, I THINK KEEPING THE RATIO WORKS. I'LL GO WITH, I MEAN, I'LL GO WITH THE MAJORITY OF COURSE, BUT I, I, I HATE DOING THIS SORT OF THING 'CAUSE I WASN'T GIVEN THE REASON WHY IT WAS DONE AND HOW THEY CAME UP WITH THE NUMBER. WE'RE JUST GIVEN THE NUMBER. AND SO IT, IT'S HARD TO, SO NOW WE'RE TRYING TO SPECULATE WHY THEY THOUGHT IT WAS THIS WAY. MY ALARMS ON HERE. 'CAUSE SHE, SHE WORKED PRETTY CLOSELY WITH THEM SO SHE WOULD PROBABLY KNOW WHY THEY DID IT. WELL, WELL FOR THIS EXAMPLE HERE, I QUESTIONED WHY THEY CAME UP WITH THE NUMBERS. 'CAUSE THEY HAVE THE INTERIOR LOT IN THE CORNER. LOT THE SAME SIZE. YEAH. AND THAT, THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. BUT I THINK TO MEGAN'S POINT, IF THE ORIGINAL WAS 75, UH, FOR THE INTERIOR AND THE CORNER WAS 90 RIGHT. THEY CREATED A CUSHION OF 15 FEET. WELL, WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE THAT CUSHION AWAY. RIGHT. STILL, I MEAN ORIGINALLY WAY BACK. NOT THE CONSULTANTS. RIGHT. AND I THINK MAYBE THERE, WE COULD ASSUME THAT THEY DID DO THAT. THAT INVESTIGATIVE WORK OF SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE NEED THAT 15 FOOT CUSHION FOR THE LAMPPOST, THE, THIS, THE, THAT, THE OTHER THING, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S A, A SLOPPY ASSUMPTION. WE CAN ALWAYS JUST PUT A QUESTION MARK AND SEE IT. JUST ANYTIME WE PUT SOMETHING DOWN WITHOUT A REASON BEHIND IT, YOU KNOW, AN ACTUAL FACT BEHIND IT. WHY? WHY? 'CAUSE THAT'S THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN DONE. . WELL THEN I HAVE NOTHING MORE TO SAY . SO, UM, I AGREE, BUT I DON'T THINK ANY OF US HERE CAN ANSWER IT. NO. THAT THAT'S WHAT'S PROBLEM. HOW, HOW DO WE MOVE FORWARD? DO WE JUST ASK LAUREN IN CASE SHE HAS SOME INSIGHTS ON THIS? WE KNOW THE CORNER LOT AND THE MEN HERE LOT CAN'T BE THE SAME SIZE. RIGHT. THAT'S A GIVEN. WELL, LAUREN'S GONNA BE REVIEW. WELL FOR NOW, FOR NOW WHAT WE DO. SO PUT PUT ANOTHER LAUREN, LET'S, LET'S CHANGE IT. LET'S KEEP THE 15 FEET, LIKE YOU SAID, LET'S CHANGE IT TO KEEP THAT, THAT THAT BIAS. AND PUT A NOTE TO ASK LAUREN OF WHY IF THIS IS ADEQUATE, BASED ON THE KNOWLEDGE THEY KNOW. I WOULD. I LIKE THAT. YEP. BECAUSE LIKE ALL, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE'RE DOING THESE OTHER STUDIES, WHEN WE'RE DOING THE DATA CENTERS AND ALL THIS STUFF, EVERYTHING HAD A REASON. THE NUMBER WAS RATIONAL BASE. THAT'S REALLY GOOD RATIONAL BASE. YES. AND SO IT SAYS WHY IS THAT? IT'S BECAUSE OF 'CAUSE OF THIS. AND WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH IT OR NOT, THAT'S ANOTHER THING. BUT YOU HAD A REASON BEHIND THAT. YEAH. UM, I'M REALLY, REALLY CURIOUS ABOUT WHAT A SAYS. 'CAUSE IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE THEY'RE CHANGING THE MAXIMUM HEIGHT OF SINGLE FAMILY DWELLINGS TO FIVE FEET. NO, IT'S 45 FROM 35 45. YEAH, THAT'S, SEE THAT? YEAH. YEAH. IT'S JUST THE, IT IS REVIEW CHANGES IS STRANGE. PROBABLY SHOULD BE SPELLED OUT. ALSO. THAT WOULDN'T HURT. CONSISTENT. YOU, I CAN'T IMAGINE THE GROUP I'D RATHER BE DOING THIS WITH. THIS IS INCREDIBLE. . THANK YOU. UH, IS THAT THE RIGHT QUESTION YOU WANNA ASK WARREN? YEAH. RATIONALE WHERE THEY CHANGE YEAH. UNDER 50. AND WHAT SHOULD THE PROPORTION BE BETWEEN INTERIOR LOT AND CORNER LOT? WHAT DID I JUST SAY? YEAH. WHAT PROPORTION SHOULD BE BETWEEN MATERIAL AND CODE? THAT'S RIGHT. WHY PROPORTION. OKAY. WE'VE BEEN AT THIS. I ALWAYS HATE BEING THE ONE TYPING WHEN EVERYONE'S WATCHING. 'CAUSE THE NUMBER OF TYPOS EXTRACT. I DON'T, THERE ARE PEOPLE WATCHING I SO FAST. NORMALLY I TYPE EVERY DAY ALL THE TIME. NO, I, LIKE I SAID, NUMBER ERROR. THIS ALSO, THIS KEYBOARD IS NOT, I HAVE TO HIT THE BUTTON. SO LIKE I, I ENDED UP GETTING THIS KEYBOARD, EVERYONE, ALL MY EXCUSES. AND YOU BARELY HAVE TO TOUCH THIS KEYBOARD. NO, IT'S, IT IS THE TAPE. THIS IS THE TYPE TOO. YOU HAVE TO GET THE SPECIAL KEYBOARD THAT CRUT YOUR ERRORS TOO. ALL RIGHT. IS THERE ONE THAT'LL MAKE MY DINNER? ? OKAY. WE'RE THE ONE THAT DO A LOT OF THE SAME THING. THE REST OF THIS. YEAH, I CAN'T. HUH? WOW. [02:50:01] YEAH, 45. SHALL WE JUST STOP? OH YEAH. HERE IN TWO WEEKS. I'M SAYING WE'RE ALMOST DONE. WE'RE CLOSE TO NO, REALLY FOR THIS WHOLE SECTION, THE SETBACKS, THE SAME QUESTION GOES, THIS NEEDS TO BE EVALUATED AS I I DON'T THINK WITH HEIGHT THOUGH, WE HAVE TO THE, THE, THE, THE QUESTION IS NECESSARILY THE SAME. OKAY. GOING FROM A 35 FOOT TO A 45 FOOT BUILDING, THAT IS FOUR LEVELS. I DON'T SEE THAT AS BEING REASONABLE OR NECESSARY CALLED MAXIMUM. RIGHT. BUT THEY'RE DOING SINGLE FAMILY. YEAH. A FOUR LEVEL SINGLE FAMILY IS. YEAH. THAT'S A MASSIVE, LIKE HIGHER CEILINGS. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU'RE, IF YOU HAVE TO GET A 45 FOOT BUILDING, THAT'S STILL ONLY THREE FLOORS, THAT'S MASSIVE CEILINGS ON EVERY FLOOR. WELL, IT'S A MAXIMUM THEN THING IS, THAT STRIKES ME, THIS IS A SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING IN THE C ONE DISTRICT. SO YOU COULD POTENTIALLY HAVE A GARAGE ON THE FIRST FLOOR AND THREE FLOORS ABOVE IT. IS THAT WHAT WE'RE SAYING? NO, THE QUESTION IS THINK WE'RE GONNA BE BUILDING HOMES IN, DO WE WANT, DO YOU WANT A SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING IN THE C ONE DISTRICT AT 45 FOOT TALL? WHAT WAS IT ORIGINALLY? 35. 30 35. WAS IT THERE ORIGINALLY OR DID IT JUST MAGICALLY APPEAR? NO, IT WAS THERE. 35 RESIDENTIAL. WELL, THE CONSULTANTS SUGGESTING NOW THEY'D HAVE TO BE DOING IT WITH A SPECIAL USE PERMIT BY THE CHANGES WE HAVE AND, AND WELL CURRENT, CURRENTLY WE HAD RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS. YEAH. NOW THEY CHANGED THAT TO SINGLE FAMILY DWELLINGS. WHICH I, I WOULD QUESTION WHY YOU'D HAVE A SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING IN THE C ONE DISTRICT AT 45 FEET. AT 45 FEET. YEAH. BUT ISN'T A SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING ONLY ALLOWED BY SPECIAL USE PERMIT? MM-HMM . YEAH. AND I GUESS THE HEIGHT WOULDN'T BE PART OF THE SPECIAL USE PERMIT. RIGHT. AND THAT'S WHY YOU'RE PUTTING THAT HERE. OKAY. I, IT'S HARD FOR ME TO IMAGINE IN THE C ONE DISTRICT THAT YOU'D WANT A SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING. RIGHT. IN THE C ONE AT 45 PEOPLE. SO TO GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE, IN R TWO WE SAY BUILDINGS MAY BE ERECTED UP TO TWO AND A HALF STORIES, BUT NOT TO EXCEED 35 FEET IN HEIGHT. THERE'S NO WAY THAT YOU CAN, WE CAN REASONABLY SAY THAT IN A RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT, WE'RE GONNA HAVE A SINGLE FAMILY HOUSE MAXIMUM OF 35 AND THEN SUDDENLY IN C ONE WE'RE GONNA GO 45 FEET. YEAH. THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. YEAH. DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. ALRIGHT. WHY DO WE EVEN HAVE A THERE? BECAUSE YOU NEED TO HAVE A A, A HEIGHT MAX MAX FOR SINGLE FAMILY DWELLINGS BECAUSE THEY'RE SEPARATING IT OUT FROM THE OTHER TYPES OF DWELLINGS. IT IS POSSIBLE WITH A SPECIAL USE PERMIT TO BUILD ONE OF THESE IN THE C ONE. AND SO NOW IT'S JUST SETTING HEIGHT. YEAH. I I WHY DON'T WE JUST REJECT THAT AND PUT IT BACK TO 35. I MEAN, I'M GUESSING THAT THEY WANTED IT AT 45 BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE ALL THE OTHER BUILDINGS ARE GONNA BE TWICE AS TALL. I CAN'T READ 85. SO, OR 85 IS YEAH, IT'S GOING FROM 45 TO 85. AND THIS IS ALSO GOING FROM 45 TO 85. 85. OKAY. WHO'S BEEN TO THE MOSAIC DISTRICT OVER FAIRFAX. OKAY. THAT'S THE SIZE OF THE PARTMENT BUILDINGS THAT WHERE PEOPLE WALK AROUND THERE. AND THAT CAN BE GREAT FOR FAIRFAX. DO YOU KNOW CLARENDON SQUARE? YES. HOW TALL ARE THEY? I WOULD THINK IT'S ABOUT THE SAME. UM, I DON'T KNOW. I I, MM-HMM. THIS IS A C ONE. C ONE. C ONE EI, I'M JUST, IT WOULD HARD BE HARD TO ME TO IMAGINE A RESIDENTIAL OR PRINCIPAL BUILDING BEING HIGHER THAN THE COURTHOUSE, FOR EXAMPLE. MM-HMM. OR SOMETHING ELSE THAT YOU TAKE AWAY FROM RIGHT, RIGHT. FROM THE DOWNTOWN AREA OVERLOOKING A PROMINENT BUILDING. THAT WOULD JUST BE, THINK THAT'S THE SAME WAY. THEY CAN'T BUILD ANY BUILDING BIGGER THAN, I MEAN, CHURCH STEEPS AND EVERYTHING ELSE IS ONE THING THAT'S GOOD. THOSE ARE, YOU KNOW, SPECIAL SITUATIONS. BUT RIGHT. IN WASHINGTON YOU CAN'T BUILD ANYTHING HIGHER THAN THE CAPITAL. WHAT WOULD BE, I, I THINK, I THINK WE'RE BACK. KEEP IT 35, KEEP IT IT 35 IS WHERE I'M WELL OTHER PRINCIPAL, UH, OKAY. YEAH. SINGLE FAMILY. YES. 35, BUT 35 OTHER PRINCIPAL. I THINK YOU'RE CHANGING IT TO 85. WE'RE CHANGING TO 85 ON 45. 45. AND THIS IS, AND THE COURTHOUSE IS IN, IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD OF 40 40 ISH. RIGHT. 45. YOU WANNA ADD A NOTE THERE? MEANING WHY WE REJECTED? WELL WE, UH, THE OTHER BUILDING IN QUESTION WOULD BE DOWN HERE AT THE 45 IS CRAZY AND LEAVE IT DOWN . [02:55:03] IT HAS TALLER STRUCTURE THAT'S HIGHER. RIGHT. BUT THAT ALREADY IS EXISTING. SO I MEAN YOU INCREASE DENSITY OFF OBVIOUSLY. UM, YOU KNOW, YOU, YOU'D HAVE MORE RESIDENTIAL UNITS. IS HARD TO IMAGINE THAT WE WOULD WANT AN 85 FOOT BUILDING NO, IT HERE BASICALLY IN THE DOWNTOWN AREA FOR RESIDENTIAL. YEAH. SO WHY DON'T WE REJECT THAT ONE TOO? I MEAN, NEEDS PROBABLY BE INCREASED, BUT I DON'T THINK YOU'D WANT TO GO FROM 45 TO 85. WELL THE PRINCIPAL BUILDING ISN'T NECESSARILY RESIDENTIAL, RIGHT? CORRECT. SO I MEAN, IF WE EVER GOT, YOU KNOW, LOOKING FORWARD 50 YEARS, IF WE NEEDED A NEW COURTHOUSE, GOVERNMENT BUILDING, ET CETERA, ET AND SAY CONSIDER RAISING, BUT ORIGINAL SUGGESTION OF 85 IS UNACCEPTABLE. YEAH. YEAH. WE'LL DO IT THIS WAY ALL THE TIME. HAVE EVERYONE WE'LL HAVE, WE'LL HAVE MEGAN BE DOING . OH MY GOSH. WE CAN, WE CAN, I THINK YOU'RE JUST HAVING, ENJOYING WATCHING ME HAVE ALL THIS. CORRECT. WE CAN, WE CAN TAKE TURNS. WE CAN TAKE TURNS OF IT BE LIKE GOING THROUGH THE GREASY BARREL, YOU KNOW, ONE AT A TIME. UM, OR NEXT AT THE MEETING, CONNIE, AT THE COURT. AT THE GOVERNMENT CENTER. WILL WE BE ABLE TO PULL ANYTHING UP ON THE SCREEN WHEN WE GO TO THE TYPE FORM TO MAKE CHANGES TO YEAH. YEAH. BUT LIKE WE HAVE IT HERE. OH, YOU MEAN FOR THE WORK SESSION? YEAH, FOR WORK SESSION. I DON'T THINK SO. I THINK IF WE CALL THEM AHEAD OF TIME, EITHER. LOOK, LOOK, WE COULD BRING IN A US ALONG THE USB CABLE OR WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO WIRE SLEEP CONNECTS WITH IT. THERE'S, I MEAN THEY HAVE, IF, IF THEY HAVE WIFI ENABLED AND THE COMPUTER'S ON THE WIFI, WE CAN DO THE SCREEN MIRRORING. I, WELL I WAS TRYING TO CONNECT TO SEE IF LIKE WE, IF I COULD FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO IT. I DON'T KNOW IF THE WIFI WAS ON. I MEAN, IT'S DONE STRAIGHT. YEAH. LET ME SEE IF THERE'S A, OR COULD WE HOLD THE PUBLIC HEARING HERE? 'CAUSE IT'S JUST A MURAL. WE DIDN'T ADVERTISE. HAVE WE NOT? YEAH, WE DID ADVERTISE CAME, IT WAS THE PAPERS TODAY, BUT WE COULD COME BACK HERE BECAUSE THAT'S GONNA BE A SHORT REGULAR MEETING. IT'S MINUTES AND THE MURAL. WE COULD CLOSE IT AND THEN COME BACK HERE IF YOU GUYS WANT TO DO THAT. IT MIGHT, IF WE'RE LOOKING TO DO IN THIS FORMAT FOR CHANGING AND MAKING COMMENTS AND TYPING DURING WOULD PROBABLY BE THE EASIER. YEAH. WHY DON'T WE COME BACK HERE. BUT THAT'S OKAY. SO I'M FINE WITH IT. YOU GUYS ARE WE STUFF AND GET SOME FOOD BACK? YEAH. AT LEAST FRENCH FRIES. WELL, WHY I, WE SHOULD BOUGHT FOOD TONIGHT. , I'M SORRY BUT I HAVEN'T EATEN. I KNOW. FOUND THIS OLD BAROLA BAR IN MY POCKET. UM, ARE WE ALSO REJECTING THE MULTIFAMILY OF BEING UP TO 85? YEAH. AND WITH THE SAME THING. SAME, SAME, SAME REASON. AND LAUREN, SEE YOU BOTH. LAUREN WILL APPRECIATE THE HOMEWORK ASSIGNMENT. AND REALLY AFTER THIS, I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY ADDITIONAL COMMENTS TO THE DOCUMENT. MEGAN, YOU REALLY ARE GOOD AT THIS. NO, THANK YOU. BRENDA'S NOT TAKING ANY NOTES. I NOTICED I'VE BEEN WATCHING HIM FOR TWO AND A HALF HOURS. HAVE YOU TAKEN ANY NOTES? I HAVE A VOICE MEMO THAT RECORDS EVERYTHING YOU SAY. OH GOODNESS. SO I CAN REFER TO THAT IN THE MORNING. WOW. , THAT'S A BIG, AFTER THIS MEETING, BRENDAN PROBABLY NEED TO DRINK. YEAH, I DO. YOU KNOW, THAT'S CLOSE. I'M GOING I KNOW. EXCEPTIONS SETBACK. UM, YEAH, WE'RE IN THE SETBACK AREA NOW, RIGHT? YEAH. SO, OH MY GOSH. I CAN SEE WITH MY GLASSES ON , UH, WHERE NO PARKING IS PROVIDED BETWEEN THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE STREET, FIVE FEET, NO DRIVE AISLE. WHAT DID THEY, WHAT DID THEY, WHY DID THEY STRIKE THAT FOR? I DON'T HAVE NO IDEA. WHEN THERE'S NO PARKING, THE SETBACK WOULD BE FIVE FEET. SO YOU CAN HAVE A PARKING LOT. WAIT, NO, WHAT? SO WHEN YOU DON'T, WE DON'T PARK BETWEEN THE STRUCTURE AND THE STREET, THE BUILDING CAN BE FIVE FOOT OFF OF THE FRONT RIGHT. OF WEIGHT LINE OR FRONT PROPERTY LINE. THAT'S WHAT'S STATING NOW. YEAH. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY PARKING, YOUR BUILDING CAN BE, YOU KNOW, FIVE FOOT OFF THE PROPERTY LINE PROVIDED. HOWEVER, THE NO DRIVE OUT WOULD BE LOCATED WITHIN FIVE FEET OF ANY STRUCTURE HAVING SET BACK LESS THAN 15 FEET. [03:00:01] SO THAT THERE IS FOR IF YOU ARE HAVING PARKING BEHIND THE BUILDING. RIGHT. SO THIS BE LIKE WHAT WE SAW PW WHERE WE WERE LOOKING AT THE AISLE AND IT WASN'T RIGHT. MEET THE WIDTH REQUIREMENTS. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THEY WANT THAT STRICKEN FOR. CAN I JUST REMOVE THE STRICKEN THE PARKING IS PROVIDED BETWEEN THE STRUCTURE AND THE STREET 50. SO NOW ON B, YOU WANT THE BUILDING SET BACK 50 FEET IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE PARKING BETWEEN THE STREET AND THE BUILDING. WE, SO THAT'S TYPICALLY, YOU KNOW, DEPENDS IF AT 50 FEET YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET, UM, 90 DEGREE PARKING AND A TRAVEL WIDTH AND TWO SETS OF PARKING. 'CAUSE YOU'RE PARKING. IF YOU'RE DOING NINE DEGREE PARKING, YOU NEED A, I THINK A 24 FOOT TRAVEL WIDTH. THEN YOUR PARKING SPACES ARE 18 DEPTH. SO NOW YOU'RE AT 36 PLUS, UH, 24. RIGHT. SO THAT'S GOING TO PUT YOU AT 60. 60. AND YOU STILL HAVE TO HAVE A SIDEWALK. RIGHT? SO FOR TO BUSINESS. SO WHEN YOU DO IT IN A 50, YOU'RE NOT GONNA HAVE DOUBLE PARKING. YOU, YOU, YOU CAN HAVE PULL IN PARKING, BUT ONLY ONE ROW. MM-HMM . YEAH. I MEAN THAT MAKES SENSE. THAT MAKES SENSE ON THAT. AND I DON'T KNOW WHY. SO WHY WE, UH, REJECT THE SUGGESTION AND PUT, YOU KNOW, SUMMIT RECOMMENDED STRIKING Y AND SEE IF WE CAN FIND OUT. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT B? YES. OKAY. AND WELL, I'M DOING THE STRIKE OF BOTH A AND B. OKAY. AND FOR ALL OF IT GOING, BUT WHY I, I MEAN, ONLY RATIONALE WOULD THAT BE IF WE NEVER, WE DON'T HAVE PARKING STANDARDS. KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING? YEAH. BUT ALL RIGHT. SO WE ALL ONBOARD WITH THIS? YEP. OKAY. SO I'LL JUST DO THIS FOR BOTH AND I'LL JUST PUT THE COMMENT FOR THE WHOLE THING. SO WE'RE NOT, YOU WANT NOT STRIKE THOSE OUT. WE ARE NOT STRIKING RIGHT HAND WRITE. I MEAN, UM, NOW I VOLUNTEER TO BRING SOMETHING FOR OUR NEXT WORK SESSION. OH, I F*****G SAY WHAT IF I BROUGHT SOUP? I AM GONNA SPILL THAT ON THE KEYBOARD. , WE'RE EATING HERE TOO. BRING SOMETHING FINGER, FINGER FOOD. SOMEONE WANTS TO BRING DRINKS OR SOMETHING THAT WOULD, I ASSUME IT HAS TO BE NON-ALCOHOLIC. I, I'M, I'M AFRAID SO. , I'D BE IN THE BYLAWS NOW. WE WORKED IN A LAW FIRM. WATCH ALL ORDER. THEY'RE ALWAYS DRINKING IN. THAT'S TRUE. IS THAT RIGHT? GEORGE? . LET'S HAPPEN. SO FOR THE OTHER SETBACKS, THESE ARE ALL JUST BEING CUT IN HALF. AGAIN GOING FROM 10 TO FIVE, 10 TO FIVE OR 15 TO FIVE AND 15 TO FIVE. AND NONE OF THOSE MAKE, NONE OF THOSE MAKE SENSE. I DON'T UNDERSTAND ANY RATIONALE BEHIND THIS. BUT WERE THEY JUST TASKED WITH INCREASING DENSITY? THEY JUST CROSS FORWARD, JUST STARTED CUTTING STUFF. JUST CUTTING STUFF. BUT YOU, YOU'RE TRYING TO TALK ACCESS WHEN YOU'RE DOWN TO FIVE FEET AND YOU'RE BETWEEN, UM, THE SETBACKS BETWEEN PROPERTIES. THAT MAKES NO SENSE. AND, AND I MEAN, YOU'RE NOT GONNA BE ABLE TO GET TRASH BINS AROUND. YOU'RE NOT GONNA BE ABLE TO NO, IT MAKES NO SENSE. SO THAT'S NOT FOR JUST REJECT THEM. NO, THAT'S JUST IT JUST, IT, JUST A SUGGESTION. YEAH. WELL, YOU, YOU KNOW, SO YOU ONE SIDE ONLY, SO YOU COULD BUILD THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BUILDING ON THE PROPERTY LINE. RIGHT. WHICH MEANS YOU WOULD WANT, YOU'D NEED SPACE ON THE OTHER SIDE THEN. YEAH. SO I MEAN THE REAR, THE REAR 15, YOU'RE NOT GONNA GET A PARKING SPACE IN THERE AT 15. UM, SO YOU COULD REDUCE THE REAR. I MEAN, REDUCING IT TO FIVE MEANS YOU'RE BARELY STANDING BACK THERE. RIGHT. RIGHT. THAT COULD BE REALLY HANDY FOR DELIVERIES. WELL, YOU'RE NOT GONNA BE ABLE TO GET, WELL NOT GONNA GET A VEHICLE BACK THERE UNLESS THERE'S AN ALLEY BEHIND. BUT STILL YOU'RE NOT REALLY, THAT'S NOT A PARKING, YOU'RE NOT ABLE TO PARK ANYTHING THERE. YEAH, YOU'D BE PARKING IN THE FRONT. YOU'D HAVE TO BE PARKING IN THE FRONT. OKAY. SO, BUT EVEN WITH 15, YOU CAN'T STILL CAN'T DO ANYTHING BACK THERE. [03:05:01] NO, BUT THAT'S LIKE YOUR, YOUR DUMPSTERS YOUR OTHER STUFF THAT USED TO GO BACK BEHIND. YEAH. YOU, YOU COULDN'T, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE A DRIVE OUT AND A PARKING SPACE. WELL, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE A DUMPSTER THERE EITHER. BECAUSE IF IT'S NOT AN HOUR, LIKE WE DON'T NEED, WE'RE IN THE, WE NOT REALLY, NOT REALLY THE ONLY, NO, ONLY BECAUSE I'M SAYING LIKE, OKAY, IF WE'RE TRYING TO INCREASE DENSITY, THERE IS SOME WAY IN WHICH WE HAVE TO, AT 15 FEET, YOU COULD GET A VEHICLE BACK THERE. IT JUST CAN'T BE ILLEGAL DRIVEWAY. SO YOU COULD HAVE ACCESS A DRIVE HOUSE, YOU COULD HAVE ACCESS A DRIVE BY. ARE YOU SAYING BY FIVE FEET THAT DOESN'T EXIST? IS THIS CONVERSATION GOING IN THE DIRECTION OF MAKING THAT BIGGER? NO. NO. THEN WE'RE LEAVING IT LIKE IT IS. WE WANT, WELL WE WANT UNDO SUMMIT DONE. SO WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE. SO WE'LL LEAVE IT. I JUST, WE DON'T, I THINK A LITTLE BIT OF DEVIL'S ADVOCATE BECAUSE THAT'S FINE. ABSOLUTELY. THEY WERE TASKED WITH SOMETHING AND YEAH. THERE, THERE CAN BE A NOTE AGAIN TO, TO ASK. UM, UH, YOU KNOW, THESE WERE CHANGE CHANGED BACK OR SOME SUGGESTION REJECTED. ARE, ARE YOU CHANGING THIS SIDE, REAR AND CORNER SIDE OR JUST THE REAR? ALL THREE? ALL OF THEM. THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE BACK TO WHAT THEY WERE BEFORE SUMMIT GOT THEIR HANDS ON THEM. OKAY. ACCESSORY STRUCTURE, FIVE FEET OR 50% OF THE BUILDING HEIGHT, WHICHEVER IS GREATER. THAT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE TO HAVE. THAT'S FOR AN ACCESSORY STRUCTURE, NOT THE MAIN ONE. RIGHT. SO YOU CAN HAVE AN ACCESSORY STRUCTURE, WHATEVER STORAGE, UM, OR 50%, WHICHEVER IS GREATER. SO IT MEANS LIKE IF YOU HAVE A, YOU KNOW, EIGHT FOOT SHED OR SOMETHING BACK THERE, WHATEVER. WELL YOU THINK A, A COMMERCIAL TOO, RIGHT? SO YOU YOU COULD BE LIKE, UM, UH, I'M TRYING TO THINK WHAT COMMERCIAL, COMMERCIAL, I'M THINKING OF SOME LIKE THE ONE DOWN HERE ON MAIN STREET WHERE THEY HAVE THE POTTERY. NOW THE BACKSIDE USED TO BE A GUY WHO DID CUSTOM FRAMING AND EVERYTHING. IT DOESN'T REALLY WORK 'CAUSE HE'S ON THE STREET, BUT HE NEEDED LARGE DOORS AND, AND LARGE AND A PLACE TO LIKE CONTAIN HIS LARGE WOOD. LIKE HE WAS AT SOMETHING LARGE THERE. RIGHT? YEAH. SO WOODWORK AND SHOP, WHATEVER. RIGHT. SO IT'S NOT A, A TYPICAL BACK, UH, RESIDENTIAL SHED. SO THE THING MAY NEED TO HAVE A CEILING OR A ROOF OR WHATEVER, 20 FEET HIGH, 20 FEET TILE. RIGHT. TO GET A FORKLIFT IN OR WHATEVER. SO ARE YOU WANTING THAT ACCESSORY STRUCTURE TO BE FIVE FOOT OFF THE PROPERTY LINE OR ARE YOU WANTING IF IT WAS A 20 FOOT HEIGHT, YOU WOULD BE 10 FOOT OFF THE PROPERTY LINE? I THINK IT MAKES COMPLETE SENSE TO SAY THAT IT WOULD BE, IT SHOULD BE FARTHER AWAY FROM THE PROPERTY LINE. IF IT'S NOTHING BIG, I, NO, YEAH, I, I I'M, THAT'S THAT'S THE REASONING BEHIND THAT. YEAH. IT'S A MINIMUM OF FIVE THEN IT'S 50% OF THE BUILDING HEIGHT. SO YOU INCREASE IT, THE TALLER THE BUILDING, THE FURTHER IT SETS AWAY FROM THE PROPERTY LINE. AND THAT'S FOR AN ACCESSORY STRUCTURE. MM-HMM . WHAT DO YOU THINK? IT'S JUST, IT'S HARD BECAUSE, UM, ONE I'M THINKING, GOSH, IF THEY NEED A STRUCTURE LIKE THAT TO HOLD YOUR LARGE WHATEVER, ALL WOOD AND EVERYTHING, THEY WOULD PROBABLY WANT IT CLOSE TO BE EASILY ACCESSIBLE. LIKE TO PULL IT OUT. RIGHT. SO YOU DON'T NEED MORE THAN FIVE FEET. LIKE I LIKE SAYING PUT 10 FEET BACK DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO ME. UM, BUT SO IT'S LIKE WHAT, LIKE THEY, YOU, WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET AT IS ON A PRACTICAL LEVEL, LIKE WHERE HOW WOULD THESE ACCESSORY STRUCTURES BE USED AND YEAH, THAT, I MEAN I I JUST FEEL LIKE IT'S A LITTLE BIT GRAY TO ME. MM-HMM . AND, AND I DON'T WANNA UNNECESSARILY PENALIZE IS THE ISSUE HERE. LIKE WE DON'T WANT IT TO LOOK UGLY. THAT'S WHY WE WANT IT FURTHER BACK. IF IT'S REALLY TALL, IS IT JUST LIKE, OH NO, WE'RE JUST TRYING TO RECOUP SOME SQUARE. HAVE YOU, HAVE YOU EVER DRIVEN AROUND THE BACK OF MARTIN'S AND THAT WHOLE LINE? YEAH. SOME OF THE BUILDINGS BACK THERE. ACCESSORY STRUCTURES. I DON'T, I THINK ALMOST NONE OF THEM ARE. THEY'RE ALL THE, THEY'RE ALL PART OF THE BUILDING. BUILDING WITH MARTIN'S OR WHATEVER OTHER STORES ARE. RIGHT. YOU GO A LITTLE BIT FURTHER BEYOND MARTIN'S. I MEAN NOW BLUE RIDGE HOSPICE HAS [03:10:01] THAT TENT OUT THERE. YEAH. THAT'S NOT TRUCTURE TRUCTURE STRUCTURE. BUT THEN WHEN YOU GO OVER TO, UH, BEHIND RURAL KING, YEAH. I HAVE NOT BEEN BEHIND THERE. SO I DON'T KNOW. UM, I MEAN MAYBE IT'S A SEASONAL THING, BUT THEY DO HAVE STRUCTURES BACK THERE I THINK. OR MAYBE THEY JUST PARK TRUCKS BACK THERE FOR THEY HAD STORAGE BACK THERE. I DON'T RECALL. YEAH. SO STORAGE STRUCTURES ABOUT THE ACCESSOR BUILDINGS ARE GOING TO BE STORAGE. BUT THERE WAS A REASON SOMEBODY SAID 50% OF THE BEHIND THERE'S A RE SO YEAH, I JUST PUT A COMMENT. IT SAID, SAID, WHY, JUST ASK WHY WAS THIS GUY? IT MIGHT, IT MIGHT BE FINE OR MIGHT NOT BE FINE. I DON'T KNOW. AND THEN SAME THING, YOU KNOW, JUST THE THING IS WHAT, WHAT WORRIES ME IS THAT WHEN IT COMES TO THE CUTBACK CHANGE, THE SETBACK CHANGES ACROSS THE BOARD AND EVERY SINGLE ZONING DISTRICT THAT WE'VE LOOKED AT, JUST CUTTING BY 50%, THAT'S WHAT IT'S LIKE THE THING TO DO. AND SO I'M NOT SEEING A PATTERN OF REASON WITH THIS BECAUSE JUST SAYING 50% ACROSS THE BOARD, IT DOESN'T INDICATE THAT IF WE WERE 20 TO 17 IN ONE PLACE AND FROM 15 TO 10 IN ANOTHER, IF THERE WERE VARIANCES, THEN I COULD SEE IN DATABASE. THIS SEEMS JUST TO, IT ALL COMES BACK TO WE WEREN'T GIVEN THE REASONS. YEAH. AND IT, THE PATTERN INDICATES, SEEMS TO INDICATE THAT THERE WASN'T ONE. AND I WELCOME TO BE WRONG. I WOULD LIKE TO BE WRONG. AND, AND, AND EVEN ALONG THIS, ALONG THE LINES OF SAYING, LOOK, WE JUST NEED TO FIND SPACE, MORE SPACE TO BUILD, TO DO THIS, TO DO THAT. BUT EVEN THEN YOU WOULD SEE A VARIANCE IN THE SET BACK THERE. WOULD YOU WOULD AT LEAST EXPECT SOME KIND OF A THOUGHT PROCESS OR RATIONALITY THAT AN ANALYSIS TO BACK UP TO BACK UP WHAT THEY DID. AND MAYBE THERE IS THAT BUT IT WASN'T INCLUDED. YEAH, WE DON'T HAVE IT. WE'LL FIND OUT FOR LAURA OVER THE NEXT TIME WE SEE HER. WE CAN ASK HER. JUST REJECT THAT ONE AGAIN TOO. I WOULD SAY. YEAH, IT SEEMS ARBITRARY. AND UNDER C ALSO, UM, LEMME ADD A COMMENT HERE REAL QUICK. AND EVEN IF YOU WANT TO GET SPACE BACK OR LAND BACK, IT FEELS REALLY ARBITRARY IN THIS WAY. LIKE, ARE YOU ACTUALLY GETTING ANYTHING USABLE BACK? LIKE, OH MY GOSH, ALL OF THIS GOT, OKAY, SO HOLD ON. WHAT SO TRANSITIONAL YARDS WHEN IT LOCATED ADJOINING A RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT. SO THERE WERE SETBACKS THAT WERE DIFFERENT SIDE YARDS, 15 DEBRIS, 20 INSTEAD, NO STRUCTURES USED. SO THIS IS PROTECTING AND NEIGHBORING RESIDENTIAL. IT'S A LOT PUTTING IT NOT A USE. CORRECT. YES. RIGHT. IT'S JUST PUTTING A LITTLE BIT OF BUFFER BETWEEN A NEIGHBORHOOD AND THE COMMERCIAL. WHY WOULD THIS BE TAKEN OUT , WHAT THEY'RE SAYING WITH THE STRIKING THROUGH, YOU JUST WOULD REVERT TO THE SETBACKS THAT ARE RIGHT. GOVERNING THE DISTRICT. LIKE THE ONES THAT ARE SAYING SHELBY FIVE FEET OR WHATEVER. YEAH, JUST YEAH, I HAVE THESE THINGS. WERE MID 20, 24, RIGHT? YEAH. WHO WAS THE TOWN MANAGER IN MID 2024. SORRY, 20, 23, 24 JOE WALLS, 10 FEET 50. AND THAT'S, THAT REFLECTS, THAT MIRRORS WHAT WE HAVE BEFORE. MM-HMM . I'M NOT SURE. YES. I WOULD LIKE TO KEEP ALL OF THIS. AND THAT EVEN SAYS THAT THE TOWN MAY WAIVE THIS BY SPECIAL USE PERMIT. I DON'T SEE ANY REASON TO NOT JUST KEEP ALL OF THIS. WE CAN'T, MAYBE WE CAN'T, MAYBE WE SHOULDN'T DO ANYTHING UNTIL WE GET A CHANCE TO TALK TO LAUREN BECAUSE SHE WOULD KNOW THE RATIONALE. 'CAUSE IT'S SUCH A MASSIVE CHANGE AND THERE, THERE MUST HAVE BEEN A REASON FOR IT. WELL I, AND WE, WE WE'RE HAVING TO DO THIS AGAIN IN TWO WEEKS. SO WELL THE REASON THEY TOOK THIS OUT IS BECAUSE THEY DID ALL THE OTHER CUTS AND THEY'RE JUST TRYING TO MAKE THAT THE STANDARD AND NOT HAVING THIS ADDITIONAL CONDITIONING THAT THAT'S THE REASON THEY DID IT. THEY GOT RID OF IT. BUT I, I WOULD, I WOULD RECOMMEND REJECTING THE CHANGE AND JUST PUT A, PUT A NOTE SAYING THAT WE OBJECTED WHO YEAH. REJECTED TO LACK OF A SOUND. YOU HAVE IT IN THERE. THERE'S NO SPECIAL USE PERMIT. IF THEY WANT TO CHANGE IT TO SOMETHING DIFFERENT AND YOU KNOW, AND THEN IF NEXT WEEK WE HEAR THAT OR IN A COUPLE WEEKS, WHATEVER, WE HEAR THAT THERE WAS SOME OTHER SPECIAL REASON, THEN WE CAN . YEAH, WELL I'M ALL, I'M ALL HAPPY TO HEAR, LISTEN, STUPID. YOU DIDN'T SEE THIS . I'M NOT HAPPY TO BE TOLD THAT. YEAH. WE'RE ON DOING THIS BECAUSE WE UNDID WHAT THEY DID IN [03:15:01] ALL THE OTHER AREAS. YES. AND THEIR WHOLE SUGGESTION, JUST THEY'RE COMPLETE RATIONALE, JUST ARBITRARILY CUTTING STUFF. AND THEN THIS DUPLICATES WHAT WE JUST WENT THROUGH. NO, DOESN'T DUPLICATE IT. IT IT HAS MORE OF A SETBACK. IF YOU'RE, IF THIS IS NEXT TO A RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT, GO ON, LET ME DOWN. AND THE KEY IS RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT, NOT SOME PEOPLE NOT RESIDENTIAL USE. WHY'S, LEMME PUT THIS. SO IT MAKES, I SO YEAH, YOU WERE MAKING THAT DISTINCTION. RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT? BECAUSE IT PROTECTS THE RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT. I UNDERSTAND THAT THE DISTRICT, BECAUSE THERE'S, IT IS NOT RESIDENTIAL HOUSING. RIGHT. SO IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THERE'S A HOUSE THERE OR NOT, RIGHT? IT IS JUST END DISTRICT. NO, THE RESIDENTIAL DISTRICTS, BECAUSE WE HAVE RESIDENTIAL USES IN THE COMMERCIAL DISTRICT IN THE CENTER ESSENTIALLY. OKAY. SO THEN YOUR, YOUR POINT IS THAT THAT'S NOT PROTECTING THESE HOUSES. IT'S UP AGAINST AN R ONE. BUT IF THEN IT'S BUT IF IT HAS, HAS ADDITIONAL PROTECTIONS BY THIS, IF IT'S IN THAT DISTRICT, THE ART, IF THE, IF IT A, A RESIDENTIAL HOUSE IS IN THE COMMERCIAL DISTRICT, THEY DON'T GET THESE PROTECTIONS CORRECT? MM-HMM . YEAH. OKAY, I GOT YOU. ALRIGHT. OKAY. THEY WANT BE CLOSE TO EVERYTHING. I JUST WANNA KEEP THAT IN MIND BECAUSE YOU CAN HAVE A BIG AREA DOWNTOWN AND YOU HAVE THESE OLD SINGLE FAMILY HOMES. THEY RIGHT. WHATEVER C ONE, THEY DON'T GET THAT, THEY DON'T GET THE PROTECTION. RIGHT. OKAY. AND IT GOES TO BUILDING COVERAGE. AND THE WAY I SEE IT, THE REASON WHY THE MAXIMUM BUILDING COVERAGE FOR APARTMENT STRUCTURES EXCEEDING FOUR UNITS WAS AT 50% IS BECAUSE SINCE YOU'RE INTRODUCING A RESIDENTIAL ELEMENT, YOU SHOULD HAVE MORE OPEN SPACE THAN YOU WOULD NEED IN A PURELY COMMERCIAL ELEMENT. AND THAT'S WHY THEN IT WOULD BE DIFFERENTIATED FROM THE, ALL OF THE REST OF THE STRUCTURES IS 75. UM, BUT THIS IS JUST BRINGING IT UP TO 75, THE SAME OPEN SPACE. NOW YOU MAY OR MAY NOT, IT DEPENDS ON HOW MUCH IMPORTANCE YOU'RE PUTTING ON THIS, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THAT'S, THAT'S WHY IT WAS ORIGINALLY IT'S 50% IS BECAUSE I HAD A RESIDENTIAL ELEMENT, KIND OF A QUALITY OF LIFE ISSUE. I THINK SOMEWHERE TO PUT THE SWING SET. I CAN'T, I, I GUESS I COULD ARGUE THIS NUMBER EITHER WAY. YEAH, SAME. I I WOULD TEND JUST LEAVE THAT ONE FOR NOW. YEAH. OKAY. UM, ALL RIGHT. PERFORMANCE STANDARDS. I DON'T THINK THERE'S REALLY ANYTHING CHANGED IN HERE. UM, WHICH IN ALL OF THIS MAKES SENSE. I HAD NOTHING ELSE. THE REST OF THE DOCUMENT, THERE'S SOME MISCELLANEOUS LANDSCAPING, FARMER'S MARKETS, WHAT MARKETS, WE TOUCHED ON THIS BUT A BIT BEFORE. DOES THIS INCLUDE THE DISCUSSIONS I HAD PREVIOUSLY OR NO? WELL WRAP THOSE, THOSE CONVERSATIONS WERE BASED ON SOME OF THESE YEAH, WE WERE, WE WERE. OH WAIT, NO, WE WERE MAKING ADJUSTMENTS TO THE, TO SOME OF THESE AS THEY RELATED TO THE AGRICULTURAL DISTRICT. AGRICULTURAL BECAUSE THERE WAS MORE, MORE FLEXIBILITY AND FREEDOM GIVEN TO THAT. YEAH. THAN IN COMMERCIAL, SO, OKAY. YEAH, I DID, I DIDN'T KILL MYSELF REVIEWING THIS SECTION AND THEN MANY PROBABLY. AND GUESS WHAT, THAT'S NOT DOCUMENT. NO SAY THIS. SO COME ON, LET'S START OVER. SAY THAT . UM, WE UM, WE GOT COVERED QUITE A BIT OF GROUND HERE. WE ACTUALLY DID SOME HOMEWORK ASSIGNMENTS OUT I'M AFRAID. BUT DO ME A FAVOR. YEP. DAVID, UM, WHERE CAN YOU GO TO PUBLIC? CAN'T SEE FROM HERE. OUCH. YEAH. AND THEN THERE'S A PLANNING AND ZONING FILE. YEAH. SAVE IT IN THERE IF YOU DON'T MIND. AND THEN CALL IT WHATEVER TONIGHT, PC WORK SESSION MARKUP OR WHATEVER. TODAY'S THE FIFTH. SURE. SORRY. THANK YOU. NO, YOU ARE, I APPRECIATE THAT. I SPOKE TOO QUICK. ALL BREAD. DO YOU NEED ME TO SEND IT TO YOU OR ANYTHING OR? NO, I CAN GET IT FROM THERE. PERFECT. I'LL GO ABOUT THAT. THANK YOU EVERYBODY. THANK YOU EVERYBODY. DO I HEAR A MOTION? DO ADJOURN. OH, [03:20:01] SHOOT. OKAY. MEGAN, I WANTED TO SAY, WAIT, WAIT. THERE HASN'T BEEN A SECOND YET. HASN'T BEEN. LET'S BACK UP. DID SECOND IT MR. ALLEN? SECOND. I'M SORRY. FAVOR? FAVOR? ANY OBJECTION? SOMETHING. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.