* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. THE [00:00:01] ENGINEERS. OH YEAH, THAT WAS NICE TO ME TOO. THE WATER. YEAH. OKAY. SO I'M GONNA CALL TO ORDER THE [Town Council Work Session on March 3, 2025.] TOWN COUNCIL REGULAR WORK SESSION FOR SUNDAY, MARCH 3RD, MS. PRESSLEY. AND, UM, WE DO, OR ROLL CALL MAYOR RO HERE. VICE MAYOR AL. HERE. COUNCILMAN INDEED. DEMON PAYNE. HERE. COUNCILMAN INGRAM? HERE. COUNCILMAN RAPPAPORT? HERE. COUNCILMAN . ABSENT. COUNCILMAN WOODS HERE. OKAY, SO OUR FIRST ITEM TONIGHT IS A REQUEST FOR A-V-H-D-A REVITALIZATION AREA DESIGNATION RESOLUTION. AND IT WAS RECEIVED FROM JEN SERVER OBSERVER DEVELOPMENT AND CONSULTING LLC ON BEHALF OF HARWOOD PLACE, VIRGINIA, LLC, FOR AN AREA OF TOWN TO INCLUDE THE PROPERTY FOR THE PROPOSED MINING UNIT APARTMENT COMMUNITY OFF EAST RASER ROAD. UM, I BELIEVE THAT THE PLAN IS MS. SERVER IS GONNA DO A PRESENTATION FOR COUNCIL. UM, AND THAT, YOU KNOW, AFTER THAT, IF ANYBODY HAS ANY QUESTIONS FOR HER OR FOR STAFF, WE CAN, BUT MR. BELIEVE, ARE YOU READY? SURE. NOW, SOMEBODY MIGHT HAVE TO GIVE SOME POINTERS ON THE TECHNOLOGY PIECE HERE, BUT DO WE HAVE A, I THINK CHARLES IS GONNA LIKE A CLICKER. YOU ALREADY, DID HE STAND OVER HERE? YEAH, IF YOU'LL STAND HERE, THEN THAT WAY THE CAMERA GETS YOU FOR THE VIDEO. GO BACK. OKAY. PERFECT. ALL YOU GOTTA DO. THANK YOU. GOOD EVENING. HOW IS EVERYBODY? FINE. VERY GOOD. THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME. UH, BACK TONIGHT, UH, I PUT TOGETHER THIS LITTLE PRESENTATION. I'LL TRY TO JUST BREEZE THROUGH IT, NOT TAKE TOO MUCH OF YOUR TIME HERE. UM, MOST OF IT ACTUALLY IS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. UM, SO THIS IS JUST THE NAME OF THE TIME. OKAY. I'M GONNA HAVE TO COME OVER HERE. YOU'RE FINE. UH, SO THIS IS FROM, UH, THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, WHICH IS A GOAL STATEMENT. I BELIEVE THE PAGE RIGHT AFTER THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING SECTION, UH, IN THE PLAN. UH, AND THE GOAL STATEMENT IS TO ENSURE THE TOWN HAS A DIVERSIFIED STOCK OF HIGH QUALITY AMENITY, BRIDGE HOUSING OPPORTUNITIES FOR ALL CURRENT AND FUTURE RESIDENTS IN THE COMMUNITY. I'VE HIGHLIGHTED IN READ SOME POINTS THAT I THINK ARE MOST, UH, RELEVANT TO OUR DEVELOPMENT, UH, THAT WE ARE PROPOSING. AND IT SAYS, AS MENTIONED IN THIS SECTION, MANY IN FRONT ROYALS KEY PERSONNEL SUCH AS POLICE OFFICERS AND FIREFIGHTERS HAVE MEDIAN INCOMES THAT MAY BE TOO LOW TO AFFORD HOUSING WITHIN THE LOCALITY WITHOUT AN ONGOING PUSH FOR MORE AFFORDABLE HOUSING. THESE ARE, THIS PAGE ON THE LEFT IS ALSO FROM DIRECTLY FROM THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, WHICH SHOWS IN A GRAPH, AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU GUYS CAN SEE THOSE NUMBERS OR IF YOU HAVE IT BIGGER UP ON YOUR SCREEN. I WAS, DO YOU HAVE IT INDIVIDUALLY? WE DO NOT MM-HMM . OKAY. UM, I CAN ORDER IT TO COUNSEL, BUT, UM, BUT IT, I'LL CANNOT NOT BE ABLE TO, IT WASN'T A WHOLE LOT BIGGER FOR ME ON MY SCREEN WHEN I GOT IT, BUT I, IT'S CLEAR. I MEAN, I CAN READ IT CLEARER UP HERE. YOU GUYS SEE IT? OKAY. AND YOU CAN STILL SPEAK TO IT TOO. OKAY. I'M NOT SURE IF, IF YOU CAN SEE THESE NUMBERS, BUT IT IS, IT'S A GRAPH SHOWING THE INCOMES OF, UH, FOLKS WHO LIVE HERE. UH, SO THESE ARE THE 15 TO THOUSAND 24, 9 99 FOLKS. THESE ARE 25 TO 34, 9 99, 35 TO 49 99, AND 50 TO 74 99. SO YOU CAN SEE THAT IT'S A LOT OF THE POPULATION, MOST OF THE POPULATION. THESE, THIS IS A CHART THAT SHOWS THE INCOME LEVELS FOR THE HOUSING THAT WE ARE PROPOSING TO BUILD. UH, SO YOU HAVE FOR ONE PERSON, 2, 3, 4 ON DOWN THE LINE FOR THIS COLUMN IS YOUR 30%, 50%, 60%, AND 80% FOLKS. WE WOULD, OUR PLAN IS TO HAVE UNITS SET ASIDE IN EACH OF THOSE INCOME BRACKETS. UH, SO FOR EXAMPLE, ONE PERSON EARNING 30% INCOME, WOULD THE, THE CAP IS 20,640, BUT IF YOU HAVE FOUR PEOPLE EARNING 80% OF THE INCOME, IT'S 78,560. SO THAT'S THE RANGE. THE VERY LOWEST TO THE VERY HIGHEST. UM, WHICH YOU CAN SEE WHAT, THAT'S THE BULK OF THE POPULATION. UM, THIS IS ALSO FROM THE COMP PLAN. UM, LOOKING FORWARD, IF THE MEDIAN HOUSEHOLD SIZE OF TWO AND A HALF PERSONS REMAINS CONSISTENT OVER THE NEXT YEARS, THE GROWTH IN POPULATION WOULD MEAN THAT FRONT ROYAL WOULD NEED APPROXIMATELY 900 HOUSING UNITS TO ACCOMMODATE THE POPULATION. UM, THE GRAPHS HERE SAY THAT, UH, YOU CAN SEE THE RENTER OCCUPIED [00:05:01] VERSUS UNDER OCCUPIED. IT SAYS BETWEEN 2010 AND 2019, THERE HAS BEEN A NATIONAL INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF HOUSEHOLDS THAT RENT WITH MUCH OF A DRIVEN BY PREFERENCE. UM, AND THAT RATES ARE GOING UP AS EVERYBODY KNOWS. UH, IN 2010, THE MEDIAN GROSS RENT WAS $823, BUT IN 2019 IT RISE TO 9 73, 15 0.4% INCREASE. NOW IT'S 2025 FROM 2019 TO 2025. WE ALL KNOW WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE RENTAL MARKET IN THIS COUNTRY, NOT JUST HERE. THAT WOULD GOOD. THAT WOULD'VE BEEN A GOOD RENT. THAT WOULD'VE BEEN A CHEAP RENT AROUND HERE. THAT SECOND NUMBER, YEAH, THIS IS IS 2019 DAYS. YEAH, NO, I KNOW. I'M SAYING THAT'S SEEM LIKE A DEAL COMPARED TO NOW. FOR SURE. ABSOLUTELY. THESE LAST FEW YEARS ESPECIALLY HAVE BEEN AN INTENSE INCREASE NATIONWIDE. UH, THE GRAPH ON THE RIGHT SHOWS THE HOUSING THAT BY YEAR HERE, UH, THIS IS 2010 OR LATER, THIS IS 22,000 TO 2009. UH, SO AS YOU CAN SEE, SINCE 2010, THERE HAS BEEN NEARLY NO DEVELOPMENT, UM, IN FRONT ROW FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING, UH, IN 2019. AND AGAIN, YOU KNOW, THIS IS ALL 2019 DATA BECAUSE IT'S COMING DIRECTLY FROM THE PLAN. UH, 39% OF RENTERS IN FRONT ROYAL SPENT MORE THAN 35% OF THEIR INCOME ON RENT. UH, IN OTHER WORDS, NEARLY 40% OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE, WHO RENT IN FRONT ROYAL ARE SPENDING AN AMOUNT THAT IS UNAFFORDABLE ON THEIR HOUSING. THE GOVERNMENT, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DEFINES AFFORDABLE AS 30%. UM, AND THEN IT SAYS, UH, IF NO NEW MULTIFAMILY UNITS ARE BUILT, OR A DIVERSITY OF UNIT TAXES, UNACHIEVED, NOT ONLY WILL THIS BANK HOUSING LESS AND LESS AFFORDABLE, IT WILL MEAN THAT PEOPLE WHO RENT WILL CONTINUE TO LIVE IN OLDER UNITS WITH FEWER AMENITIES. A FUNCTIONING LOCALITY NEEDS A RANGE OF DIFFERENT TYPES OF WORKERS WHO MAKE A RANGE OF SALARIES FROM SERVERS AND DISHWASHERS TO TEACHERS AND FIREFIGHTERS TO DOCTORS AND LAWYERS. HERE'S SOME EXAMPLES OF AVERAGE SALARIES, AND AGAIN, I'M ASSUMING THIS IS FROM 2019. BOUGHT A WATER TREATMENT PLANT OPERATOR, $40,000 A YEAR PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER, $58,000 A YEAR, FIREFIGHTERS, $40,000 A YEAR. ALL OF THOSE FOLKS QUALIFY FOR WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO BUILD HERE. UM, OBJECTIVES AND STRATEGIES FROM THE PLAN I HIGHLIGHTED OF THREE. NUMBER TWO, IMPLEMENT AND CONTINUE RESEARCH ON METHODS FOR INCREASING THE AMOUNT OF AFFORDABLE WORKFORCE WORKFORCE HOUSING. NUMBER 14, ENCOURAGE ENERGY OFFICIAL RENTAL HOUSING DEVELOPMENT. I THINK I MENTIONED TO YOU WHEN I WAS BEFORE YOU BEFORE, UH, THAT EVERYTHING WE BUILD QUALIFIES FOR THE NATIONAL GREEN BUILDING SERVICE, UH, STANDARDS, UH, PROGRAM. AND, UH, WE ALSO HAVE RECENTLY, IN THE LAST THREE YEARS BEGAN, UM, SOLAR INSTALLING SOLAR PANELS ON OUR ROOFTOPS, UH, TO LOWER THE COST OF UTILITIES FOR THE RESIDENTS AND LOWERING COST OF THE ENERGY THAT OUR BUILDINGS ARE USING ON THE WHOLE. UH, AND NUMBER 15, ENCOURAGE CONSTRUCTION TO MORE AFFORDABLE APARTMENTS, UM, WHICH IS OF COURSE WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO. UH, THESE ARE SURVEYS FROM THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. UH, APPARENTLY THE TOWN ASKED RESIDENTS WHAT ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS TO THEM, UM, AND FOR THE CURRENT, I GUESS OVERALL QUALITY OF LIFE, UH, AFFORDABLE HOUSING RANKED THIRD WITH SCHOOLS, UH, TIME WITH SCHOOLS ONLY AFTER SAFETY AND TOWN SERVICES. AND FOR FUTURE DEVELOPMENT, THEY RANKED AFFORDABLE HOUSING SECOND ONLY AFTER BROADBAND ACCESS. THE SECOND MOST IMPORTANT THING TO THE TOWN OF FRONT ROYAL RESIDENCE, ACCORDING TO THEM. NUMBER TWO, WHAT I'M ASKING YOU FOR TONIGHT IS, UH, THIS REVITALIZATION AREA RESOLUTION. UM, I, I WATCHED YOUR LAST COURT SESSION, SO I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT WHAT THE CODE MEANS BY THE DEFINITION OF REVITALIZATION AREA. I'VE TALKED TO SOME OF YOU, UM, AND TAKEN SOME OF THE POINTS HERE, UM, AND SOME OF LAUREN'S POINTS, UM, AND SOME OF LAURA'S POINTS. UM, AND SO I'M JUST GONNA READ THIS AND I KNOW THAT THERE WILL BE FURTHER DISCUSSION, BUT, UH, THE DEFINITION IS THERE ARE TWO POINTS. AND THE FIRST ONE IS THE INDUSTRIAL, COMMERCIAL, OR OTHER ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT OF SUCH AREA WILL BENEFIT THE TOWN. BUT SUCH AREA LACKS THE HOUSING NEEDED TO INDUCE MANUFACTURING, INDUSTRIAL, COMMERCIAL, GOVERNMENTAL, EDUCATIONAL, ENTERTAINMENT, COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT, HEALTHCARE, OR NONPROFIT ENTERPRISES, OR UNDERTAKINGS [00:10:01] TO LOCATE OR REMAIN IN SUCH AREA. ATTRACTING QUESTION IS PART OF THE REDEVELOPMENT OF THE EAST RASER TO SOUTH STREET AREA. FROM REMONT ROAD TO SOUTH ROYAL, A 1.8 MILE AREA OF TOWN THAT HAS SCENE, REDEVELOPMENT, INVESTMENT FROM TOWN, COUNTY, STATE, AND PRIVATE INVESTORS. SINCE THE MID 1960S, THE TOWN HAS ADDED SIDEWALKS AND LIGHTS TO THIS AREA. EXTENDED THE GREENWAY FROM COMMERCE AVENUE TO REISER REPLACE THE EAST REISER BRIDGE. INSTALLED THE BUR BROOKS PARK CONCENTRATED ON CURB, GUTTER AND REPAVING. THIS AREA ADDED NEW INFRASTRUCTURE FOR WATER, SEWER, AND ELECTRIC. THE COUNTY RELOCATED AND BUILT A LIBRARY, REVITALIZED AN OLD 1960 SCHOOL, RESTY JEFFRIES AND REDEVELOPED THEIR SCHOOL BUS LOT TO ACCOMMODATE MORE BUSES. PRIVATE INVESTMENTS STARTED WITH THE ROYAL PLAZA SHOPPING CENTER BUILT BEING BUILT IN THE LATE 1960S. REDEVELOPMENT OF THAT SHOPPING CENTER CONTINUES TO OCCUR TODAY. ADDING OUTLYING STORES AND REDEVELOPMENT OF STOREFRONTS LIKE RURAL KING PORTIONS OF THE SOUTH SIDE OF SOUTH STREET, HAVE BEEN REDEVELOPED FROM SINGLE MULTIFAMILY HOMES AND OTHER STRUCTURES IN NEED OF REPAIR INTO BUSINESSES SUCH AS TWO STRIP MALLS, A CREDIT UNION, CAR WASH, METERY, AND MOTEL. THERE IS ONGOING REVITALIZATION OF SINGLE FAMILY HOMES, ALONG WITH NEW INFILL LOT DEVELOPMENT TAKING PLACE BY DEVELOPERS THROUGHOUT THIS AREA. BDOT PLANES TO SOON REDESIGNED SOUTH STREET TO IMPROVE PEDESTRIAN SAFETY AND TRAFFIC FLOW WHILE THE GREENWAY RUNS ALONG THE FLOOD PLAIN. ALONG REMOUNT ROAD ON SOUTH ROYAL AVENUE, THERE IS REDEVELOPMENT OF THE SALMON PETRI PROPERTIES PARK SIDE INN AND ASTERIA MARIA. THE DEVELOPMENT OF THIS SITE IS PART OF A GREATER REDEVELOPMENT EFFORT. AFFORDABLE HOUSING IS NEEDED AND WILL BE A PART OF THAT REVITALIZATION EFFORT. AS ALWAYS, DEVELOPING ROOFTOPS ENCOURAGES COMMERCIAL ENTERTAINMENT AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT. DEVELOPING ROOFTOPS WILL LIKELY ENCOURAGE GOVERNMENTAL AND EDUCATIONAL DEVELOPMENT, COULD PRODUCE MANUFACTURING, INDUSTRIAL OR NON-PROFIT ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT, AND WOULD CERTAINLY ENCOURAGE EXISTING BUSINESSES TO REMAIN IN THE AREA FURTHER UNDEVELOPED. COMMERCIAL LAND CAN BE DEFINED AS REVITALIZATION BECAUSE INFILL DEVELOPMENT INVOLVES THE NEW CONSTRUCTION OF COMMERCIAL AND OR RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS ON UNDERUTILIZED OR VACANT PARCELS OF LAND. THE HARDWOOD PLACE PROJECT BRINGS NEW LIFE AND VALUE ON AN UNDER UNDERUTILIZED TRACK, PROVIDING A WORKFORCE RESOURCE FOR NEARBY EMPLOYMENT CENTERS AND THEREBY HELPING TO PROMOTE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT. SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, IN YOUR LAST MEETING, EVERYBODY WAS KIND OF CONCERNED THAT REVITALIZATION CAN'T HAPPEN TO A VACANT TRACT. UM, REVITALIZATION HAPPENS ALL THE TIME ON BANKING TRACKS. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WANNA PAUSE THERE FOR DISCUSSION. I THINK THIS IS THE BIGGEST, THIS IS THE BIGGEST CROSS I THINK WE'VE GOTTEN. GO AHEAD. I CAN WEIGH IN AS FAR AS WE'VE GOTTEN A DIFFERING LEGAL OPINION IS THE LAST THING. I, I THINK THE INTENT OF THE STATUTE IS MET WITH THAT FIRST SENTENCE AS OPPOSED TO A SINGLE PARCEL OF LAND, THAT DESIGNATED AREA WE'RE PART OF IT, RIGHT? MM-HMM . RIGHT. WHICH HAS CHANGED SINCE OUR LAST WORK SESSION. SO THE INFORMATION WE'VE BEEN PROVIDED HAS CHANGED. I, I THINK THAT WE, I I THINK FROM, WHICH IS THE REASON WHY I'M GLAD YOU'RE HERE, AND THAT'S THE REASON WHY I INVITED YOU. 'CAUSE I THINK THAT THIS IS, THAT, YOU KNOW, EXPLAINING IT IN THIS WAY, UM, I THINK, I KNOW, I ADMIT MY PERCEPTION OF REVITALIZATION. I WAS LOOKING AT RE AS A PREFIX AND HOW THAT MEANS AGAIN. AND SO I WAS THINKING THAT THAT MEANT LIKE, THAT THE LAND HAD BEEN USED FOR SOMETHING AND YOU'RE REVITALIZING IT. I THINK THAT IN THE WAY YOU'RE DESCRIBING IT HERE, I KNOW I CAN WRAP MY HEAD AROUND IT BETTER. UM, DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE EXPRESSING THERE? SO BASICALLY THAT AREA, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THAT AREA AROUND THERE IS, HAS SEEN IMPROVEMENTS OVER THE YEARS, IS HOW HAS, HOW I'M SEEING THIS AND HOW IT'S BEING DESCRIBED MM-HMM . SO, UM, YOU KNOW, I DON'T, I DON'T KNOW IF ANYBODY HAS, UM, DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR MS. SERBER AT THIS TIME OR ANY OUT TO CALL THAT WHOLE AREA, REVITALIZATION AREA? WHAT ALL OF IT, THE AREA IN THE FIRST SENTENCE THERE. IS THAT WHAT THE REQUEST IS NOW? NO, I THINK THE REQUEST IS STILL THE REVIT REVITALIZATION AREA ON THAT TRACT OF LAND THAT THEY'RE HOPING TO BUILD THIS. I THINK, UM, HER, I THINK WHAT SHE'S SHARING HERE [00:15:01] IS IT, I MEAN, I'M NOT SPEAKING FOR YOU, BUT IS THAT, IS THAT THERE'S LOTS OF REDEVELOPMENT THAT'S GONE IN AND AROUND THAT AREA. AND SO WHAT SHE'S JUST SAYING IS THAT REVITALIZATION DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THE LAND HAS, THAT IT HAD TO HAVE, UM, BEEN USED BEFORE AND WE'RE, AND WE'RE NOW CHANGING IT. SHE'S SAYING THAT REVITALIZATION CAN BE, EVEN IF IT, THE LAND HASN'T BEEN USED BEFORE, IT COULD BE A VACANT PIECE OF PROPERTY THAT'S NEVER BEEN USED. UM, SO AND GEORGE, WHEN YOU'RE SAYING THAT FIRST SENTENCE, ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT IN THE BLUE? NO, I'M TALKING ABOUT, OKAY. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE TRACTOR IN QUESTION AS PART OF THE REDEVELOPMENT OF THE EAST RASER TO SOUTH STREET AREA FROM RERO ROAD TO SOUTH ROYAL, WHICH WOULD INCLUDE THIS PARCEL, WHICH WOULD INCLUDE THIS. SO AGAIN, TO BE CLEAR IN MY, IT'S MY OPINION THAT THE INTENT OF THE STATUTE IS YOU DESIGNATE A A SIGNIFICANT AREA, NOT JUST A SINGLE PARCEL OF LAND. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'M ASKING. OKAY. OKAY. SO, OKAY. I'M SORRY. SO THAT ANSWERS MY QUESTION. SO IT IS INDEED FOR THE WHOLE AREA, NOT JUST FOR THAT TRACT. OKAY. AND I THINK TOO, I'VE STRUGGL LIKE I KEEP THINKING ABOUT THAT LAND, LIKE I KEEP THINKING LIKE RURAL HANGING BEHIND IT, BUT REALLY IT IS, YOU KNOW, IT'S OFF OF EAST RASER. THAT'S HOW IT'S BEING ACCESSED. IT'S IN A, A, A THREE BLOCK AREA. IT'S A LARGE THREE BLOCK AREA REALLY FROM REMOUNT OVER TO ROYLE. BUT IF YOU LOOKED AT THE, UM, REVITALIZATION PROJECTS THAT'S BEEN GOING ON THERE SINCE THE LATE 1960S WHEN THEY BUILT ROYAL PLAZA, VERY FEW OF Y'ALL OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER SOUTH STREET WAS A PREDOMINANTLY AFRICAN AMERICAN RESIDENTIAL AREA THAT HAD A TASTY FREEZE ON THE CORNER OF HILL STREET FOR LIKE MOST OF MY LIFETIME. UNTIL THEN, PEOPLE STARTED BUYING UP THESE AREAS. THE FIRST CAME RURAL PLAZA SHOPPING CENTER, AND THEN OTHER HOUSES WERE BOUGHT UP. WE HAD THE STRIP MALL THERE, UM, I DON'T KNOW, HAVE NAILS. SO TWO FAT BUTCHERS. YEAH. AND THEN YOU HAVE MORE, UH, ANOTHER STRIP MALL CAR WASH. ALL THAT IS NEW DEVELOPMENT, REVITALIZATION OF AN AREA WE PLOWED MONEY INTO WITH SIDEWALKS OR THE, UH, GREENWAY TRAIL FLIGHT SIDEWALKS. THE COUNTIES UPDATED SY JEFFRIES, THEY BUILT A LIBRARY THERE IN THE PARK. I HAVE TO BELIEVE THEY HAD THAT IN MIND. OUR LIBRARY WAS OVER ON, ON VILLA. THEY PUT IT THERE AT KIND OF A UNIQUE AREA, BUT I, I THINK THEY HAD THE VISION HELPING REVITALIZE THE AREA. WE KNOW THE CROSSER HEIGHTS APARTMENT ACROSS THE STREET WERE DONE FOR THIS TYPE OF HOUSE. AND, AND, AND THERE WAS NOTHING THERE BEFORE THAT. SO I THINK THIS FITS PERFECTLY IN AN AREA THAT WE WANT CONTINUED INVESTMENT AND WE WANT CONTINUED REVITALIZATION. WE HAVE A LOT OF INFILL, UM, DEVELOPMENT, UM, NEW HOUSING. MATTER OF FACT, WE CONDEMNED A HOUSE. WE, UH, LAUREN TOLD ME THE OTHER DAY, A HOUSE ON PARKVIEW. WE BOARDED UP AND APPARENTLY WE'RE IN NEGOTIATIONS NOW. SOME, WE WANTS TO BUY IT, WE'LL GET OUR MONEY THAT'S BEEN GOING AGAINST GASOLINE. MM-HMM . AND WE'LL TEAR DOWN A SUBPAR STRUCTURE AND PUT IN I, I THINK TOWNHOUSE AGAIN. BUT AGAIN, IT'S AN AREA WE STILL WANT TO SEE DOLLARS COME INTO. AND WE DO HAVE A SHORTAGE OF THIS TYPE OF HOUSING. I I THINK IT MEETS THE DEFINITION. I KNOW. I FEEL BETTER ABOUT IT. I'M, I'M, I OH, ABSOLUTELY. I FEEL, YOU KNOW, I, I FEEL MORE CONFIDENT AND I, AND I READILY ADMIT THAT I WAS QUESTIONING, YOU KNOW, THE LAST TIME WE MET. SO, UH, BUT ANYWAY, OTHER, ANYBODY HAVE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS OR I, BECAUSE SHE HAS ANOTHER SLIDE. ONE MORE SLIDE. THERE'S ONLY ONE MORE SLIDE, AND THEN YOU CAN ASK, UH, WHICH IS 0.2. UH, IT NEEDS TO MEET BOTH CRITERIA. THIS IS THE SECOND ONE. UH, PRIVATE ENTERPRISE AND INVESTMENT ARE NOT REASONABLY EXPECTED WITHOUT ASSISTANCE TO PRODUCE THE CONSTRUCTION OR REHABILITATION OF DECENT, SAFE, AND SANITARY HOUSING AND SUPPORTING FACILITIES THAT WILL MEET THE NEEDS OF LOW AND MODERATE INCOME PERSONS AND FAMILIES IN SUCH AREA, AND WILL INDUCE OTHER PERSONS AND FAMILIES TO LIVE WITHIN SUCH AREA AND THEREBY CREATE A DESIRABLE MIX OF RESIDENTS IN SUCH AREA. UM, AND THE RESPONSE, MY RESPONSE THERE IS, UH, PRIVATE DEVELOPERS ARE EXTREMELY UNLIKELY TO CONSTRUCT HOUSING UNITS THAT MEET THE NEEDS OF LOW AND MODERATE INCOME PERSONS OF FAMILIES WITHOUT ASSISTANCE. THE LOW INCOME HOUSING TAX CREDIT IS A TOOL WIDELY SUPPORTED BY BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS USED BY DEVELOPERS TO ASSIST IN THE PRODUCTION OF HOUSING UNIT HOUSING UNITS THAT BENEFIT HARDWORKING AMERICANS. THE CREDITS ARE SOLD TO PRIVATE INVESTORS, USUALLY BANKS AND INSURANCE COMPANIES. THE EQUITY FROM THE SELL OF THE CREDITS REDUCES [00:20:01] THE AMOUNT OF MONEY NEEDED TO FINANCE THE DEVELOPMENT, AND THEREBY REDUCES DEBT SERVICE AND THE RENTS NEEDED TO SUPPORT IT. NO ONE CAN AFFORD TO BUILD UNITS AND PROVIDE 30% RENTS WITHOUT THE CREDIT. NO ONE CAN DO THAT. IT'S FIND THEM, FOR ME, , IT'S DIFFICULT FOR US TO DO IT WITH THE CREDITS AND MAKE THE DEALS WORK. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FROM THE SERVER? OR IF, IS THERE ANY QUESTION FOR STAFF? I KNOW LAUREN'S NOT HERE, BUT JOHN'S HERE AND PREPARED. UM, WHEN YOU HAVE 39% OF THE, OF THE RENTERS, UH, THAT ARE SPENDING 35% OF THEIR INCOME ON THE RENT, UH, THAT TELLS ME THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS SOMETHING IN THIS COMMUNITY THAT IS REALLY NEEDED. AND, UH, I FEEL REALLY GOOD ABOUT IT. SO I KNOW THAT WHEN YOU, UM, WHEN WE APPROVED THE SUP, I REMEMBER THE DATA AT THAT TIME. JUST REVIEW WITH ME AGAIN THOUGH. LIKE, SO OUT OF THE 90 HOMES, THERE'S A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE, LIKE THERE'S DIFFERENT LEVELS OF A YEAH. HEY, JOHN, CAN I LEAN ON YOU FOR A SECOND? DO YOU HAPPEN TO HAVE THAT DATA WITH YOU? BECAUSE I DO NOT, I DO NOT BRING THAT. I DID NOT BRING THAT. OKAY. UM, SO RIGHT NOW WE'RE PLANNING TO SUBMIT AN APPLICATION IN MARCH FOR THE FIRST 45. UM, OF THAT 10% WOULD BE 30% A MI MM-HMM . UM, AND ABOUT 40% WOULD BE 80% A MI. THE AVERAGE HAS TO BE 60. IF YOU TAKE ALL OF THE UNITS AND THE NUMBER OF UNITS AND THE, YOU HAVE TO BE AVERAGED AT 60% A MI, SO ROUGHLY 10% AT 30, ROUGHLY 40% AT 80, AND THEN THE, THE FIFTIES AND SIXTIES TO GET TO THAT 60% AVERAGE. AND I APOLOGIZE, I DO NOT HAVE THAT WITH ME RIGHT NOW. THAT'S OKAY. I JUST REMEMBER WE HAD TALKED ABOUT THAT BEFORE BECAUSE THERE WAS ANOTHER HOUSING DEVELOPMENT THAT WAS IN TOWN, AND, UM, ORIGINALLY EVERYBODY SAID THAT LIKE YOUR TEACHERS AND YOUR FIREFIGHTERS AND, AND LAW ENFORCEMENT WOULD BE ABLE TO LIVE THERE. AND THEN BY THE TIME IT WAS BUILT OUT, UM, THEY ALL MADE TOO MUCH MONEY TO QUALIFY FOR IT. BUT AS I RECALL, DIDN'T YOU SAY LIKE, SOME PEOPLE, LIKE THEY COULD HAVE A HIGHER INCOME AND STILL QUALIFY FOR IT, RIGHT? 80%. YEAH. THAT'S WHAT, THAT'S WHAT I, 80%, THAT'S WHAT I REMEMBER. THE CREDIT PROGRAM CHANGED ABOUT FOUR YEARS AGO. RIGHT. OKAY. UM, EIGHT. IT USED TO BE THAT YOU COULDN'T RENT TO ANYBODY. 80%. EVERYBODY HAD TO BE BELOW 60. BUT ABOUT FOUR YEARS AGO, THE IRS CHANGED THE GUIDELINES, AND NOW YOU JUST HAVE TO BE AVERAGED AT 60. OKAY. SO WE DO HAVE 80% UNITS, AND ABOUT 40% OF OUR UNITS ARE 80%. SO IF YOU LOOK BACK TO THIS ONE PERSON, 55 6, I THINK IT'S A SIX 40, UM, TWO PEOPLE, 52, 8 83 PEOPLE, 77, 24 PEOPLE, 76 BOXES. THOSE ARE THE 80% INCOME CAPS. GOTCHA. THIS IS, UH, DATED FROM NOVO. THIS DATA WILL CHANGE IN APRIL, UH, EVERY YEAR THE DATA IS UPDATED. UM, SO IT'S ABOUT TO CHANGE. IT LIKELY WILL GO UP THOUGH, RIGHT? MEANING THAT YOU COULD MAKE MORE MONEY DON'T QUALIFY. THAT'S, I THOUGHT YOU MEANT, I MEAN, ENLIST AREA MEETING INCOME GOES DOWN. RIGHT. UH, BUT HOPEFULLY THAT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN. RIGHT. UH, HOPEFULLY IT'S CREEPING, . ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FROM MR. BER? ANY OTHER? OKAY. WE WE'RE GOOD. THANK YOU. SO I'LL BE RIGHT HERE. YES, I KNOW. UM, SO AT THIS TIME, BECAUSE UM, WE DO HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO THIS, WE CAN TAKE ACTION, UM, WE CAN TAKE ACTION ON THIS TOPIC, UM, BECAUSE IT IS A TIME, THERE'S A TIMELINESS. SO, UM, DOES ANYBODY ON COUNCIL HAVE A MOTION? MAYOR, I MOVE THE COUNCIL APPROVE PURSUANT TO VIRGINIA CODE 3 6 5, 5 0.3. UM, TWO, A REVITALIZATION DESIGNATION RESOLUTION FOR HARTWOOD PLACE VIRGINIA, LLC, FOR AN AREA OF TOWN TO INCLUDE THE PROPERTY OF THE PROPOSED 90 UNIT APARTMENT COMMUNITY OFF THE EAST CROSSER ROAD AS PRESENTED SECOND. [00:25:02] NOW, IS THERE ANY DISCUSSION? I KNOW WE ASKED QUESTIONS, BUT DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY DISCUSSION? WELL, MY QUESTION IS UHHUH, THE, THE RESOLUTION'S ON THE NEXT PAGE IS I YES. AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YES. OKAY. THERE IS THERE, YES, THERE WAS A RESOLUTION, UM, PREPARED IN CASE COUNSEL DECIDED TO, TO, UM, TO, UH, TAKE ACTION ON THAT TONIGHT. SO, AND IF ANYBODY HAS ANY QUESTIONS ON THE RESOLUTION, MR. SONNET WOULD BE WILLING TO, I KNOW THIS IS DISCUSSION TIME, BUT YEAH, OBVIOUSLY THE RESOLUTION CALLS FOR A DESCRIPTION. AND FROM A PURELY LEGAL STANDPOINT, THAT SENTENCE, IN MY VIEW, SATISFIES A REVITALIZATION AREA, THE INTENT OF THE STATUTE. MM-HMM . THAT'S NOT TO SAY THAT COUNSEL YOU DOES OR DOES NOT MOVE FORWARD WITH THIS. THAT'S JUST PURELY THAT AN OPINION ON THAT PART OF IT. OKAY. YOU WOULD LIKE TO INCLUDE THAT DESCRIPTION USED IN THAT FIRST SENTENCE. IN MY VIEW, IT NEEDS TO BE BROADER THAN A SINGLE PARCEL OF LAND TO SATISFY THE INTENT OF THE STATUTE. AND, AND THAT'S NOT INCLUDED IN THE RESOLUTION, RIGHT? WELL, THERE'S, YEAH, THERE'S TWO BLANK LINES, TWO BLANK LINES. I GOTCHA. THAT'S WHAT THE BLANK LINES ARE FOR THAT YOU'RE HOPEFUL THAT, THAT WE COULD MAKE IT FORWARD. THE BROADER AREA, IF YOU MOVE FORWARD, YOU DESIGNATE THAT AREA. OKAY. OKAY. UM, GOOD WITH THAT, DO I NEED TO AMEND THE MOTION SAYS FOR AN AREA IN TOWN. SO I THINK BASED ON THE DISCUSSION, AND IN THE MINUTES OF THIS MEETING, IT WOULD BE CLEAR THAT WE'RE DIRECTING THE CLERK AND THE TOWN ATTORNEY AND STAFF TO INCLUDE THAT SENTENCE IN THE RESOLUTION. IS THERE ANY OTHER DISCUSSION? MY MY CONCERN WITH THIS IS THAT WE'RE DESIGNATED AN AREA OF THE TOWN AND THE ONLY INPUT WE HAVE ARE JUST FROM THE PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM. WE'RE NOT GETTING ANY PUBLIC INPUT FROM THIS. I MEAN, I KNOW THIS IS NOT A REZONING ORDINANCE REQUEST OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, BUT, UM, I'M JUST, I, I JUST, I WISH THAT THIS WAS IN A PUBLIC INPUT SESSION, GIVEN THAT IT'S GONNA BE SUCH A WIDE AREA, SO THAT THAT MAKES IT, THAT'S MY BIG, MY BIG TICK ON THIS. AND I THINK THAT BY PROCLAIMING THIS, IT FURTHER SHOULD ENCOURAGE A REVITALIZATION OF THIS AREA. I MEAN, WE STILL HAVE PROPERTIES IN THAT THREE BLOCK AREA. WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE LIKE THE OLD, UM, SCOTLAND TERRACE, THE ROUND RESTAURANT, UH, I DON'T KNOW THE, EVEN THE NAME OF THE FLOP HOUSE MOTEL THERE. UM, , THERE'S JUST A FEW, THERE'S A FEW OTHER PROPERTIES THERE THAT, YOU KNOW, IF WE DESIGNATE THIS AREA, YOU CAN ONLY LEAD MAYBE TO ANOTHER, UH, YEAH, APPLICANT COMING SAYING, I WANT TO TAKE THE OLD RESTAURANT DOWN AND DO THIS. AND I THINK WE'VE ALL AGREED OUR ENTRY WAY IN THE TOWN ALONG ACROSS THE ROAD, THE, UM, CONTINUE REDEVELOP THE INFILL. AND TO YOUR POINT, COUNCILMAN INGRAM, I WILL SAY THIS, I PASSING A RESOLUTION, WE, THAT'S NOT USUALLY SOMETHING WE HAVE TO HAVE A PUBLIC HEARING ON. OH, RIGHT. UM, SO I, I WAS JUST SAYING IF THAT, THAT, BECAUSE YOUR POINT IS VALID, BUT I ALSO FEEL LIKE WE'VE PASSED RESOLUTIONS BEFORE. UM, AND ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I WANNA MISS A SERVER TO COME TONIGHT AND PRESENT IS 'CAUSE I WANT THE PUBLIC TO BE AWARE OF THE, UM, THE, THE BACKGROUND AND THE INFORMATION THAT COUNCIL IS BEING PROVIDED AS, AND THAT WE WEREN'T JUST MM-HMM . ENTERTAINING THE IDEA AND DOING IT WITHOUT ANY KIND OF INFORMATION. AND I THINK PULLING INFORMATION FROM OUR COMP PLAN, WHICH WAS SOMETHING THAT THE PUBLIC HAD INPUT ON, AND THE PUBLIC DID HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO WEIGH IN, THAT MAKES ME FEEL BETTER THAT THE PUBLIC HAS HAD SOME OPPORTUNITY. UM, SO ANYWAY, I WAS ABOUT TO, IS THAT WHAT YOU WERE GONNA SAY? YEAH, BECAUSE WE THINK TONIGHT, BRUCE. YEAH. IT'S FOCUSED ON AFFORDABLE HOUSING CHAPTER ON THAT AND, UH, THAT, THAT, UH, WE WOULD HAVE AFFORDABLE HOUSING FOR ALL. SO, OH, YEAH. I, I'M NOT DISAGREEING WITH ANYTHING AS FAR AS IT WAS SAID, GOES. I'M JUST SAYING THAT, AND I BELIEVE ONE OF THE OTHER AREAS IN TOWN THAT WE WERE HOPING APARTMENTS WERE GONNA COME IN, I, I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT THAT'S NOW UP FOR SALE. SO WE APPROVED, UM, WE APPROVED THE OLD BAYMONT, AND THEY, WE WERE GONNA PUT APARTMENTS IN THERE, AND WE TALKED ABOUT HOW THAT WAS NEEDED, LIKE MORE HOUSING OPPORTUNITIES. AND [00:30:01] I, I, I, I DON'T KNOW, I'M NOT SHOPPING FOR IT, BUT I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT THAT'S NOW FOR SALE. SO OBVIOUSLY THEY'RE THE OWNER AND THE APPLICATION AND EVERYTHING THAT WENT THROUGH US AND WE APPROVED IT, THEY MUST HAVE CHANGED THEIR MIND. AND THEY'RE NOT DOING THAT. SO THAT'S A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF APARTMENTS THAT WE THOUGHT WERE GOING TO BE ADDED INTO OUR HOUSING INVENTORY THAT ARE NOT, NOT ANY OTHER DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS TOPIC. IS EVERYBODY READY FOR A ROLL CALL QUESTION? YES. OKAY. MS. PRESLEY. COUNCILMAN WOOD? YES. VICE MAYOR FEL? YES. COUNCILMAN VO ABSENT. COUNCILMAN RAPPAPORT? YES. COUNCIL GRAM? NO. COUNCILMAN DEMON PAYNE? YES. FEW MOTION PASSES. UM, NEW BUSINESS FOR TONIGHT. UM, THANK YOU, MR. GERBER. THANK YOU BOTH. HAVE A SAFE DRAFT. THANK YOU. UM, THREE A, THE NEW BUSINESSES A REQUEST FOR REVISIONS TO THE SUBDIVISION DEVELOPMENT PLAN FOR BRADLEY CREEK, SECTION FOUR, UH, 4, 5, 6 29, AND 30 BY MIRANDA HOMES. AND, UM, MS. KATI IS NOT HERE THIS EVENING. UM, SHE, SHE, LIKE MANY OF US HAS SUCCUMBEDED TO A WONDERFUL FLU. UM, BUT MR. WARE IS GONNA, UM, UH, TAKE, TAKE HER ROLE TONIGHT, WHICH WE APPRECIATE YOU DOING THAT. YOU HAVE A LARGE PACKET, UH, FROM THE PLANNING DEPARTMENT ON TOPICS TONIGHT. UH, SO I TRIED TO CONDENSE THAT DOWN A LITTLE BIT MORE, BUT IT IS GOING TO BE A, A RATHER LENGTHY PRESENTATION. UH, I'LL JUST BRING THAT TO THE FOREFRONT. UH, WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH IS, UH, PRIMARILY WHAT, UH, WE REFER TO AS STEEP SLOPES HERE IN TOWN. UH, BRING THAT TO YOUR ATTENTION BECAUSE WE HAVE TWO FUTURE PROJECTS THAT DEAL WITH STEEP SLOPES, UH, AND ALSO WITH THIS PROJECT HERE. SO YOU'LL BE HEARING ABOUT THIS TOPIC IN FUTURE DEVELOPMENTS, UH, COMING BEFORE YOU. SO, UH, THE APPLICATION HERE IS FOR THE, UH, LOTS FOUR FIVE AND 6 29 AND 30, UH, AT THE HAPPY CREEK KNOLLS SUBDIVISION. UH, SO WHY ARE YOU HERE? WELL, 1 48 3 15 OF THE TOWN CODE, UH, REQUIRES, UH, WHEN THEY DO A REVISION OF AN ALREADY APPROVED PLAN THAT CANNOT BE APPROVED ADMINISTRATIVELY REQUIRES REVIEW BY THE PLANNING COMMISSION AND RE-APPROVAL BY THE TOWN COUNCIL. SO WE HAVE AN ALREADY APPROVED, UH, SUBDIVISION PLAN, AND THEY'RE WANTING TO REVISE THAT. UH, THE CONCERN WITH THIS REVISION IS UNDER 1 48 8 60 ENVIRONMENTAL IMPROVEMENTS, WHICH DEALS WITH STEEP SLOPES. SO THE PURPOSE OF THAT IS STEEP SLOPES WHEN DEVELOPED, REQUIRE MORE GRADING AND LAND DISTURBANCE THAN DEVELOPMENT OF FLAT AND GENTLY SLOPING TOPOGRAPHY AREAS. THEREFORE, THE PURPOSE OF SECTION IS ESTABLISHED PROTECTIVE REGULATIONS TOO. SO, UH, THE TOWN CODE DOES LIST THOSE, PART OF THE, THAT SECTION ABOUT STEEP SLOPES. UH, WE SHOULD ENCOURAGE INNOVATIVE DEVELOPMENT WITHIN THE TOWN, UH, MINIMIZE, UH, SOIL DISTURBANCE ON THE STEEP OR CRITICAL SLOPES. SO THAT'S THE PRE-PHASE, HOW THIS GETS DEVELOPED. SO WHEN PEOPLE TELL YOU THE TOWN DOES NOT ALLOW STEEP SLOPES DEVELOPMENT, THAT IS NOT TRUE. THEY HAVE TO MEET THESE PARAMETERS OF THIS PART OF THE SECTION OF TOWN CODE OF YOUR CODE. SO ALL PROPOSED SUBDIVISIONS, WHICH RESULT IN CREATION OF ADDITIONAL BUILDING, LOTS OR LOTS WITHIN THE EXCEPTION OF THE BOUNDARY LINE, JUST MUST SUBMIT A PLAN IN ADDITION TO THE REQUIRED SUBDIVISION DEVELOPMENT, STREET AND CONSTRUCTION EROSION AND SEDIMENT CONTROL PLAN. SO THEY HAVE TO SUBMIT ANOTHER PLAN WITHIN THAT THAT IDENTIFIES THESE STEEP SLOPES. UH, THEY HAVE TO ESTABLISH THAT. AND THERE'S TWO CATEGORIES. ALL STEEP SLOPES ARE UNDER ONE OR TWO CATEGORIES. THOSE AREAS 15 TO 25%. THAT MEANS THE PERCENT OF THE SLOPES THAT IS EITHER CONTAINS HIGHLY ERODIBLE, HIGHLY PERMEABLE, OR SHRINK SWELL SOILS. THAT'S ONE CLASSIFICATION BASED ON THE USDA, SOIL CONSERVATION SOIL SURVEY OF COUNTY, UH, OR ALL SLOPES GREATER THAN 25%. SO THOSE TWO CATEGORIES AUTOMATICALLY PUT THAT IN WHAT WE REFER TO STEEP SLOPES. UH, SO THEY HAVE TO CREATE AN OVERLAY WITHIN THESE PLANS THAT SHOW THESE AREAS. AND THEY HAVE TO SHOW THE GRADING PLAN, HOW THEY'RE GONNA NEGOTIATE AND DEVELOP THIS PRO, UH, PROPERTY WITH THE STEEP SLOPES. UH, THEN THEY HAVE TO, AFTER THAT IS APPROVED SOMETIMES WITH THE BUILDING [00:35:01] SITE OF THE INDIVIDUAL LOTS, WHICH IS CRITICAL FOR THIS APPLICATION. UH, UNDER CATEGORY C, UH, NO FINISHED SLOPE SHOULD BE CREATED WITH THE FINAL GRADE GREATER THAN 15, SLANT 15%. AND UNLESS DEEMED FEASIBLE BY GEOTECHNICAL REPORT, AND UNDER E SIX E OF THAT CODE, UH, THE USE OF RETAINING WALLS IS ENCOURAGED. SO WHAT HAS HAPPENED WITH THIS, UH, PROJECT AND ALSO THIS REQUIREMENT, YOU HAVE AN AS-BUILT PLAN ON THESE LOTS AFTER THEY ARE CONSTRUCTED TO MAKE SURE THEY CONFORM WITH THE APPROVED PLAN. SO WHAT BEFORE, BEFORE YOU THIS EVENING IS LOTS, FOUR, FIVE, AND SIX AND 29 30. SO THOSE ARE UNDER CONSTRUCTION CURRENTLY. UH, SO THE HISTORY ON THESE PROJECTS, HERE'S HAPPY CREEK KNOLLS, THE SUBDIVISION THAT WAS ALREADY APPROVED. NOW, THEY, UH, ORIGINALLY TOOK IN THE ACCOUNT OF THE SOILS, UH, SOILS REPORT WAS DONE IN OCTOBER OF 2018. THE PLANNING COMMISSION APPROVED THE PLANS IN MAY OF 2019. AND PART OF THAT PLAN ON THE ENVIRONMENTAL PART ON THE IMPACT, IT DOES SAY THE OVER LOT GRADING IS MINIMIZED IN THE PROPOSED DEVELOPMENT OF PATRICK CREEK KNOLL'S DEVELOPMENT PLANS TO THE USE OF SITE SPECIFIC ADAPTIVE HOUSING. FURTHER EXPLAINED BY PROPOSING FINAL GRADES IN CONJUNCTION WITH EXISTING GRADES THAT ARE MENTALLY ADJUSTED TO ACCOMMODATE THE HOUSE CONSTRUCTION, AS OPPOSED TO GRADING THE LOT TO FIT THE HOUSE THAT REQUIRE EXTENSIVE GRADING, EXCESSIVELY STEEP DRIVEWAYS AND OR RETAINING WALLS. SO WHAT HAPPENED WITH THIS SUBDIVISION? HERE YOU CAN SEE THESE SHADED AREAS AS AREAS THEY IDENTIFIED AS STEEP SLOPES ON THIS PART OF THE, UH, THE SUBDIVISION. AND HERE ON THIS SECTION, SO THIS IS LOTS FOUR, FIVE, AND SIX, AND 29 AND 30, AND YOU CAN SEE THE SHADING AREA ON THESE AREAS IDENTIFIED. THESE ARE STEEP SLOPES. THIS AREA HERE IS OFF LIMITS. UH, THEY DESIGNATED THESE AREAS THAT THEY SHOULD NOT DEVELOP ANYTHING BEYOND THIS LINE HERE FOR THESE HOUSING. SO THAT'S HOW THE PLAN WAS APPROVED. AND THEY CREATED, THEY TOOK THE SOILS REPORT IN AND DETERMINED THAT THESE SLOPES HERE BEHIND THESE HOMES SHOULD NOT BE GREATER THAN A THREE TO ONE RATIO, MEANING THE SLOPE WOULD RISE ONE FOOT VERTICAL FOR THREE FOOT, THAT YOU TRAVEL HORIZONTAL. SO THE DEVELOPER TOOK, OR THE CON ENGINEERING FIRM TOOK THE SOILS REPORT, DEVELOPED THIS PLAN, ANALYZED THE SOILS. AND EVEN THOUGH THESE ARE STEEP SLOPE AREAS, THEY DETERMINED THAT NO SLOPE SHOULD BE GREATER THAN A THREE TO ONE. UH, SO HOUSING HAS STARTED IN THIS SUB, UH, SUBDIVISION. UH, WE RECEIVED, UH, INDIVIDUAL PROPOSED HOUSE LOCATION SURVEYS. UH, SO THIS IS LOT NUMBER FOUR. AND WHEN THEY PROPOSED THE, THE HOUSES ON LOT NUMBER 4, 4, 5, AND SIX AND 29 AND 30, UH, THEY CAME IN WITH THE PLANS WITH THE RETAINING WALL IN THE REAR. SO PART OF OUR REVIEW PROCESS, UH, THE RETAINING WALL SHALL BE CONSTRUCTED AND COMPLETED PRIOR TO AN ISSUANCE OF A CO. SO PEOPLE CANNOT MOVE INTO THE HOUSE UNTIL RETAINING WALL IS BUILT. SO THAT'S WHAT WE DID FOR LOT NUMBER FOUR. SO HERE'S LOT NUMBER FOUR. THIS IS THE ONE SOUTH OF HAPPY RIDGE DRIVE. HERE YOU SEE A RETAINING WALL HERE IN THIS BLACK, THE HOUSE HERE, AND THEY'RE GRADE FROM THE RETAINING WALL DOWN TO THE HOUSE AT A THREE TO ONE. UH, SO THIS ELEVATION HERE, AS YOU CAN SEE, THAT RETAINING WALL WAS SIX FEET HIGH. SO IT'S A, A STEP UP BECAUSE IT TIES INTO NATURAL GROUND HERE LOT. UH, NUMBER FIVE, SAME THING. THEY SUBMITTED IT WITH RETAINING WALL. WE APPROVE THESE. THIS ONE HERE ON LOT NUMBER FIVE HAS TWO RETAINING WALLS. ONE THAT CONTINUES FROM LOT FOUR AND ANOTHER ONE. SO THIS IS GONNA STEP DOWN FROM THE, UH, UH, EXISTING GROUND UP HERE. IT'D BE GRADED DOWN A RETAINING WALL, A STEP DOWN, A RETAINING WALL, THEN A THREE TO ONE SLOPE DOWN TOWARD THE HOUSE BECAUSE THEY'RE IN STEEP SLOPE AREAS. UH, LOT NUMBER SIX. SAME THING WITH LOT NUMBER SIX, WHERE THESE LOTS RUN TOGETHER. RETAINING WALL HERE, A THREE TO ONE SLOPE. HERE YOU HAVE A SIX FOOT HIGH RETAINING WALL, A STEP DOWN. THEN THE GRADE CONTINUES AT A THREE TO ONE RATIO. UH, LOT 29, BASICALLY THE SAME THING. HOUSE TWO REPAINTING WALLS, ONE STARTING HERE, AND THE ONE IN BEHIND IT WITH A GRADE AT A THREE TO ONE, UH, GOING DOWN THE SLOPE AND LOT 30 [00:40:01] MR. WARE. YES. ARE ALL OF THESE BASICALLY THIS, IT'S THE SAME, IT'S THE SAME THING THAT THIS IS WHERE THE RETAINING WALLS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THERE. THEY WERE INCUR YES. TO DEVELOP THE WAY THEY CAME IN WITH THESE HOUSES. THE ONLY WAY TO PUT THESE HOUSES IN BASED ON YOUR CODE, IS FOR THEM TO PUT RETAINING WALLS. THEY COULD HAVE BUILT THE HOMES, UH, KEEP THAT IN MIND WITHOUT RETAINING WALLS IN A, IN A DIFFERENT SCENARIO. AND I'LL GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT. SO THAT NUMBER 30 HAS TWO RETAINING WALLS AND A THREE TO ONE SLOPE. SO WHAT HAS HAPPENED HERE, IF WE GO BACK TO THESE ORIGINAL DRAWINGS, SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THIS, THESE HOUSES WERE PRIMARILY DESIGNED FOR A SPLIT LEVEL. SO THE GRADE FROM THE HOU FROM THE ROAD TO THE HOUSE WOULD GO UP LIKE MAYBE A 10% GRADE. THEN THE HOUSE WOULD BE A SPLIT LEVEL HOME AND THEY'D BE LESS GRADING IN THE BACK. THAT'S WHAT THE DESIGN WAS PRIMARILY FOR THE ORIGINAL APPROVAL. NOW, ZONING CAN ONLY REGULATE LOT SIZE, LOT WIDTH, SETBACKS, AND THE HOUSE HEIGHT ZONING DOESN'T REGULATE STYLES. OKAY? SO WE DON'T HAVE THAT BY STATE CODE TO REGULATE THE STYLE OF THE HOUSE. WE CAN REGULATE BY ZONING SIZE OF THE LOTS, THE WIDTH OF THE LOTS, THE SETBACKS OF THE LOTS, THE HOUSE HEIGHT, UH, THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT NOT THE STYLE OF THE HOMES. SO WHAT HAS HAPPENED, UH, THE PERMITS WERE ISSUED. HOUSE WAS UNDER CONSTRUCTION HOUSE OUT OF THE FOUNDATION, HOUSES NEARLY INCOMPLETE. AND THEN THE APPLICANT DECIDED WHEN THEY LOOKED AT THEIR TOWN CODE, THAT THEY COULD SUBMIT A ANALYSIS OF THE SOILS AFTER THE HOUSES WERE UNDER CONSTRUCTION. SO THEY DID THAT FOR LOTS FOUR THROUGH SIX AND 29 AND 30, THEY DID A GEOTECHNICAL REPORT, WHICH IS IN YOUR PACKET. UH, BASED ON THAT CONCLUSION OF THAT, THEY DETERMINE, UH, IN THEIR PROFESSIONAL OPINION, BASED ON RESULTS OF THEIR EVALUATION, THE SLOPES WILL BE STABLE. SO NOW THEY CAME BACK AFTER THE HOUSES WERE BUILT AND CAME UP WITH AN ALTERNATIVE GRADING PLAN. NOW, THE RETAINING WALLS WERE NOT PART OF THE ORIGINAL PLAN ON THESE LOTS HERE ON SOME OF THESE LOTS, BECAUSE THE HOUSES SHOULD HAVE CAME UP OUTTA THE GROUND HIGHER WITH A SPLIT LEVEL, A RETAINING WALL WOULDN'T BE REQUIRED. SO NOW THEY SUBMITTED THE DESIGN WITH THE HOUSES WITH A FLATTER FRONT L YARD AND A STEEPER REAR YARD. SO THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE, UH, PROPOSING TO REVISE THE GRADING PLAN. SO THEY DID LOT NUMBER FOUR WITH NO RETAINING WALLS BASED ON THE GEOTECHNICAL REPORT AND SAID THESE SLOPES WOULD BE STABLE, BUT STEEPER THAN WHAT OR IS ORIGINALLY APPROVED. THEY'RE ASKING YOU TO, UH, TO APPROVE, UH, THESE REVISIONS. SO WHAT HAS HAPPENED, UH, STAFF TOOK THEIR DESIGN HERE, SITUATED THE HOUSE. NOW THE SLOPE HERE IS BASICALLY AT A 2.2 TO ONE SLOPE, MEANING IT'LL RISE ONE FOOT IN ELEVATION FOR EVERY 2.2 FOOT. YOU TRAVEL HORIZONTALLY. THIS DARK LINE HERE IS THE THREE TO ONE RATIO. SO YOU CAN SEE ON HERE, YOU GET TO TIE INTO THE EXISTING GROUND. YOU CANNOT ACHIEVE A THREE TO ONE SLOPE RATIO. NOW YOU'D BE INSIDE THE HOUSE, OR YOU BUY MATERIAL UP IN THE REAR OF THE HOUSE. SO THE THREE TO ONE RATIO IS NOT FEASIBLE AT THIS POINT? UH, CAN I SURE. THEY'RE STILL DOING THE SPLIT LEVEL THOUGH. NO, BECAUSE, OKAY. 'CAUSE I WAS LOOKING AT THESE HOUSES. THINK THAT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE A SPLIT. YEAH, THESE ARE NOT SPLIT LEVELS. OKAY. SO TO KEEP IN MIND, IF YOU THINK, SO, SLOPE IS, UH, PUT IN A RATIO, A THREE TO ONE WHATEVER RATIO. SO IF YOU KEEP THAT IN MIND, IF YOU THINK BETTER, A THREE TO ONE WOULD BE AN 18 AND A HALF DEGREES SLOPE OR A 33% SLOPE. THIS, UH, LOT HERE IS A 24 POINT HALF DEGREE SLOPE, OR 46%. THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE PROPOSING. AND JUST A QUESTION. MM-HMM . YOU STOP. I'M SORRY IF I GO TOO FAST. UH, JUST PLEASE STOP ME. I DON'T THINK YOU'RE GOING TOO FAST. UM, I THEY KNEW AHEAD OF TIME, CORRECT? THEY, THEY, THEY KNEW BEFORE STARTING TO BUILD AND EVERYTHING THAT THE EXPECTATION WAS THE RETAINING WALLS. YES. THAT'S THE ONLY WAY WE WOULD APPROVE THAT STYLE OF HOME BASED ON THE GRADING. OKAY. BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT ACHIEVE [00:45:01] A THREE TO ONE IN THE REAR. OUR CODE ALLOWS THEM TO PUT RETAINING WALLS IN. OKAY. SO THEY, THEY KNEW WHAT WAS EXPECTED. BEF I JUST WANNA, I WANNA MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND. THEY KNEW WHAT WAS EXPECTED AHEAD OF TIME WHEN, WHEN IT WAS APPROVED. YES. AND THEN THEY, YEAH, SO WAS REPORT, BUT, BUT THEY CHOSE TO BUILD A DIFFERENT TYPE OF HOME, RIGHT? SAME TYPE. SAME TYPE, SAME TYPE. WELL, I THOUGHT YOU SAID A SPLIT LEVEL. SPLIT LEVEL WAS, WAS PROBABLY THE INTENTION OF THE SUBDIVISION INITIALLY. OKAY. SO WE, WE CAN'T REGULATE A STYLE LEVEL HOME. RIGHT? NO, I GET THAT. I GET THAT. BUT I'M SAYING THOUGH, WHEN THEY TURNED IN THEIR SITE DEVELOPMENT PLAN, IT WAS FOR, IT, IT, IT INCLUDED THE EXPECTATION WAS RETAINING LOSS. YES. THAT'S THE ONLY WAY WE WOULD APPROVE THEM RIGHT? NOW, WERE THEY AWARE? UH, I, I MEAN, DID STAFF TELL THEM AT THE TIME? NOW ONCE YOU START BUILDING, YOU CAN DO AN, A GEO, WHATEVER STUDY YOU CALLED IT. I MEAN, THAT SOIL STUDY THAT THEY COULD GO BACK AND DO THAT AND POSSIBLY GET IT CHANGED. UH, THEY HAD SOME ISSUES ON SOME OTHER LOTS. UH, SO, UH, UNFORTUNATELY, UH, THE DEVELOPER WENT BEYOND THE LIMITS OF DISTURBANCE AND ALTERED SLOPES THAT SHOULD HAVE NOT BEEN TOUCHED, CREATING A STEEPER SLOPE. MM-HMM . SO OUR, UH, SUGGESTION, THEY HAD TWO, TWO SCENARIOS. THEY COULD GO, THEY COULD COME BACK TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION AND BACK TO TOWN COUNCIL FOR, UH, A REVISION OF THE ORIGINAL PLAN. OR WE SUGGESTED THEY INSTALL RETAINING WALLS, WHICH THE TOWN CODE ALLOWS WITH A GEOTECHNIC REPORT THAT SAYS, YES, THESE RETAINING WALLS FIT WILL FIT ON THE LOT. THE COUNTY WOULD, UH, REVIEW THAT AND INSPECT THOSE RETAINING WALLS. SO THEY DID THAT ON THREE LOTS. AND THEN THEY DECIDED THEY'D DO A GEOTECHNIC REPORT ON THESE REMAINING LOTS AND NOT DO THE RETAINING WALLS BASED ON THE SOIL'S REPORT. UM, THIS IS GONNA BE A SILLY QUESTION. NO MA'AM. I BET IT IS. NO, I BET IT IS. UM, I'M ASSUMING THAT LIKE THE EXPENSE OF THE RETAINING WALL, RIGHT? I MEAN, THAT'S COST PROHIBIT. I MEAN, I MEAN THAT, THAT'S, IT'S WOULD BE CHEAPER TO GO WITHOUT A RETAINING WALL, RIGHT? UH, THAT WOULD BE MY UNDERSTANDING. YES. MY ASSUMPTION, I KNOW YOU SHOULDN'T. MY ASSUMPTION. YES. OKAY. YOU CAN KEEP GOING. SORRY, JUDGE. OKAY. MR. WHERE, I MEAN, LOOKING AT THE PICTURE, THIS IS LOT NUMBER FOUR. LOT NUMBER FOUR, ARE WE GONNA SEE THE OTHER HOUSES? YES. ARE THEY ALREADY BUILT? ALL THE HOUSES ARE, UH, SUBSTANTIALLY COMPLETE. SO THIS IS LOT NUMBER FOUR. UH, SO THIS IS LOT NUMBER FOUR. THIS IS THE TOP OF THE SLOPE. LOOKING DOWN AT LOT NUMBER FOUR. MM-HMM . I JUST KNOW, I, I LIVE IN I THAT ONE'S THE LEAST. THIS IS OUT OF THE ONE. THIS IS LOT NUMBER FOUR IN THE REAR. SO THEY HAVE A FLAT SPOT HERE IN THE REAR. A FUTURE DECK I'M ASSUMING WOULD COME OUT THE BACK. UH, IT LOOKED LIKE THEY HAD A BASEMENT OVER ON THE OTHER PICTURE, WHICH YOU CAN IMAGINE. YES, THEY DO HAVE BASEMENTS ON THESE. OKAY. UH, SO THIS IS LOT NUMBER FIVE WITHOUT A RETAINING WALL. UH, LOT NUMBER FIVE COMES OUT WITH A SLOPE OF 1.9 TO ONE, OR BASICALLY A TWO TO ONE SLOPE THAT'S EQUIVALENT TO ABOUT A 52% SLOPE OUT THE BACK OF THIS HOME. UH, SO THERE AGAIN IS WHAT THEY ARE GONNA GRADE TO LOT TWO. MM-HMM . A THREE TO ONE CANNOT BE ACHIEVABLE. UM, SO THEN WE GO TO LOT, THERE'S NUMBER LOT NUMBER FIVE, UH MM-HMM . A SMALL AREA HERE IN FLAT AREA AT THE BACK OF THE LOT, AND THE SLOPE GOING UP THE SKI SLOPE ALMOST. WOW. UM, THERE'S A VIEW FROM UP TOP OF LOT NUMBER FIVE, THE REAR, AND THAT'S LOT NUMBER SIX. AND THERE THEY PUT A DECK HERE AT THE BACK AND THEY'RE NEAR THE TOE OF THE SLOPE. THERE'S ISN'T, ISN'T WON'T WATER. THE WATER'S GONNA ALL COME DOWN TO THE BACK OF THAT HOUSE. YEAH. SO THEY HAVE, UH, YOU CAN SEE THERE'S, THERE IS A DITCH THAT THEY PUT IN OR A LOW SPOT THAT CARRIED THE WATER DOWN AND AROUND THE BACK OF THE HOMES. YES. MM. OKAY. SWELLS ARE USUALLY IN COMMON AREAS. I'VE NEVER SEEN 'EM THAT CLOSE TO A HOUSE. TYPICALLY, THEY'RE TYPICALLY THEY'RE SOMEBODY'S YARD, THEN THERE'S A SWELL AND THEN THERE'S A SLOPE. BUT THAT SWELLS LITERALLY RIGHT AGAINST THE FOUNDATION. I'VE JUST, THAT'S JUST UNUSUAL TO ME. YES. SO THIS HOUSE, YOU KNOW, HAS A, HAS A BASEMENT. YEAH. THERE'S STAIRWELL DOWN, GONE IN THE HOUSE. MM-HMM . UH, SO LOT NUMBER SIX. SAME THING ON LOT NUMBER SIX. YOU AT THE IDEA. RIGHT? WELL, THERE, YOU'LL HAVE TO LOOK AT ALL THESE INDIVIDUALLY, I'D RECOMMEND. OKAY. SO [00:50:01] THIS ONE HAS A TWO AND A HALF TO ONE. UH, AGAIN, THIS WOULD BE THE THREE TO ONE RATIO. THIS WOULD BE THE TWO TO, UH, THE 2.51 RATIO. UH, THAT'S LOT NUMBER SIX THERE WITH THE DECK OUT THE BACK. UM, AND A LOT A LOOK FROM UP TOP OF LOT NUMBER, UH, NUMBER FIVE HERE AND LOT NUMBER SIX HERE. THEY DO HAVE A STAIRWELL GONE DOWN IN THE BASEMENT. ANOTHER VIEW OF THE SLOPE. GOOD SLEIGH RIDING HERE. UH, LOTS. FOUR, FIVE, AND SIX. AGAIN, ANOTHER VIEW. THIS IS SIX, FIVE AND FOUR GONE THIS DIRECTION, YOU CAN SEE THE, THE WATER WOULD COME DOWN THE SLOPE AND AROUND THIS AND AROUND, UH, HOPEFULLY THEY'RE IN THE SWELL AND DOWN OFF SITE. NOW THIS IS WHY YOU LOOK AT THESE LOTS. YOU TOOK ADDITIONAL PHOTOGRAPHS, YOU CAN SEE FROM THE STREET TO THE HOUSES. THE INCLINE IS, IS FAIRLY FLAT. MM-HMM . SO THE OTHER DESIGN WAS FOR THESE YARDS TO BE STEEPER IN THE FRONT AND LESS DRASTIC IN THE BACK. UH, SO THAT'S LOTS FOUR AND FIVE. THERE. THERE'S, UH, FIVE AND SIX OF THE FRONT MM-HMM . SO THEY DID IT AGAIN. THEY DID ANOTHER SOURCE REPORT FOR LOTS 29 AND 30. INTERESTING. WITH THIS ONE, THEY ALSO DETERMINED THAT THE SLOPE WOULD BE STABLE BASED ON OUR GEOTECHNICAL REPORT. ARE THEY GONNA SOD THAT OR GONNA SEED AND STRAW IT, THEY SAID, OR DID THEY SAY? IT MAY NOT HAVE SAID THAT, BUT, UM, THEY HAVE TO HAVE THAT, UH, ALL THOSE SLOPES HAVE TO BE, UH, IN SOME TYPE OF, UH, VEGETATION THAT WILL INHIBIT EROSION. SO THEY HAVE, UH, THAT'S REQUIRED BY THE, UH, WARREN COUNTY EROSION AND SEDIMENT CONTROL REGULATIONS ON THAT. THEY'RE NOT GONNA PREVENT THE WATER FROM COMING THERE AT THE, UH, SO FROM THE PICTURES THAT LOOK LIKE 29 AND 30, IF I'M LOOKING, I KNOW I'M A LITTLE BIT AHEAD, BUT 29 AND 30, IT LOOKED LIKE THEY HAD HOUSES ABOVE THEM. YES. SO HOW, WHY IF THERE IS A HOUSE ABOVE YOU AND AND MOVEMENT, HOW CAN THAT BE MORE STABLE IN TERMS OF SOIL? UH, THAT'S PROBABLY A POTENTIAL QUESTION YOU NEED TO ASK THE APPLICANT. OKAY. I MEAN, I'M NOT, YEAH, OKAY. HE'S, THEY'RE, THEY HAVE THEIR, UH, CERTIFIED ENGINEER TO CERTIFY THE DOCUMENTS. OKAY. THANK YOU. AND MR. WARE, AFTER YOU, WHATEVER WE DO, I MEAN, LET'S, LET'S SAY WE SAY, OKAY, WE'RE GONNA EXCEPTION THEN PEOPLE MOVE IN, WHATEVER HAPPENS, HAPPENS. THERE'S NO RECOURSE THAT POINT RIGHT? ON, ON, ON THE TOWN'S PART, CORRECT? UM, NO, BECAUSE, WELL, I WOULD HAVE, UH, MR. SONNET WEIGH IN ON IT, BUT THEY'RE GIVEN A SOILS REPORT FROM A CERTIFIED ENGINEER SAYING THE SLOPES WOULD BE STABLE. UH, TOWN'S NOT QUALIFIED. WE'RE NOT PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS TO, UH, TO, TO VENTURE OUT ON, ON THIS. UH, WE DO HAVE SOME EXPERIENCE WITH THESE. SO HERE'S LOT 29 AND ODDLY, UH, THIS ONE THEY PROPOSING A, A THREE TO ONE SLOPE HERE ON LOT 29. UH, SOMETHING CAUGHT MY ATTENTION A LITTLE BIT THERE. UH, SO THERE'S THE THREE TO ONE WITH A DECK ON THE BACK, BUT THE DECK WAS NOT CONSTRUCTED. SO THEY DID SHOW A DECK HERE, UH, BUT IT DIDN'T CONSTRUCT A DECK, UH, YET. SO THERE'S A TWO AND A HALF TO ONE AND THE BLACK LINE, AGAIN, THE THREE TO ONE RATIO. SO THAT ONE'S KIND OF CLOSE THERE. UH, BUT WHEN WE WENT OUT THERE, WE TOOK SOME NEW PHOTOGRAPHS AND IT'S HARD TO GET THIS IN A GOOD WAY BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF SHADE THERE ON THE BACK. MM-HMM . SO THIS ONE SHOULD HAVE BEEN, THESE TREES ACCORDING TO THEIR PLAN SHOULD HAVE BEEN REMOVED. AND THE SLOPE CUT BACK TO THE BACK PROPERTY LINE. THEY DECIDED TO SAVE THE TREES AND PUT IN A DIFFERENT SLOPE THAN THEY PROPOSE IN THE FIELD. OKAY. THANK YOU. UH, SO THAT, SO THIS HERE IS LOT 29. NOW THIS IS A SUNROOM ON 30, SO THIS DOESN'T JOIN US. THIS IS THE BACKYARD OF LOT NUMBER 29. UH, SO THIS IS LOOKING FROM THE RIGHT REAR AROUND THE BACK YARD OF THE LOT. THEY DID PUT SOME MATTING ON THERE, UH, TO INHIBIT EROSION ON THE SLOPE. UH, HERE LAST WEEK. UH, THEN THERE WAS THE BACKYARD AGAIN. THIS IS LOT 29 HERE. THIS IS THE SUNROOM ON LOT NUMBER 30. AND YOU CAN SEE THE SLOPE GOING UP THERE. UH, I PAYING ALL THAT MONEY FOR, SO THERE'S THE REAR YARD OF 29 AND 30, UM, UH, NOT AT A THREE TO ONE SLOPE. AND THIS IS BETWEEN THE TWO HOUSES. DO YOU HAVE A PICTURE FROM BEHIND 30? YES, WE DO. SO THIS IS IN BETWEEN [00:55:01] THE TWO LOTS. THIS IS 29 ON YOUR LEFT LOT 30 ON THE RIGHT. YOU CAN SEE THE EXISTING HOMES UP THE TOP OF THE BANK HERE WITH THIS FENCE. UH, SO THERE'S LOT 30 THEY SAID. INTERESTING WITH THIS ONE. WHEN WE REVIEWED THIS, UH, HE SAYS THE SLOPE'S GOING TO BE AT A 1.7 TO ONE. BUT HOWEVER, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THESE, THESE LINES HERE ARE THE CONTOUR LINES, MEANING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EACH OF THESE IS 2.2 FOOT DIFFERENCE IN ELEVATION WITH EACH LINE. NOW THE FLATTER, THE FURTHER DISTANCE AWAY FROM THE LINES MEANS THE SLOPE IS FLATTER. BUT HE TELLS ME OVER HERE IT'S A 1.7 TO ONE AND YOU SEE HOW THE LINES GET FURTHER APART, MEANING IT'S FLATTER, BUT INTERESTING. HE DIDN'T TELL US WHAT THE SLOPE WAS HERE. UH, SO WE KIND OF PICKED THAT UP AT PROBABLY THAT 1.7 TO ONE RATIO IS NOT A CLEAR INDICATION OF HOW THE LOT IS GOING TO BE GRADED IN MY OPINION. SO THERE'S THE, WE CAME UP WITH A 1.4 TO ONE RATIO. MM-HMM . UH, THE BLACK LINE IS THE THREE TO ONE RATIO OUT OF A TYING INTO THE BACK PROPERTY LINE HERE. IF YOU'RE TRYING TO PUT A THREE TO ONE, UH, NOT ACHIEVABLE, BE ON THE ROOF. SO THAT'S THE SLOPE ON LOT NUMBER 30 LITTLE FLAT AREA OUT THE BACK OF THAT SUNROOM, THE REAR, UH, THE REAR YARD. THERE IS HOUSING IN ABOVE. YES. EXISTING HOMES. RIGHT ABOVE THIS? YES. LABOR FULL OR SOMETHING? YES. THEY'LL DEFINITELY BE RUNOFF, UH, SOME RUNOFF. YES. THERE WILL BE SOME RUNOFF ON THAT. THEY PUT ANY, I NOTICED THEY DIDN'T PUTTING ANY DRAINS OR ANYTHING AROUND THOSE HOUSES. NO. SLIDE OFF THAT ONE. NOTHING. NOTHING. YEAH. IT JUST SLOPE TO WHERE SUPPOSEDLY THEY RUN RIGHT AROUND . YEAH. SO THEY DO HAVE A KIND OF, YOU CAN SEE THERE, THE WATER. COULD THEY PUT LIKE SOME LIFTS OR SOMETHING ON IT? YOU KNOW, COULD ROPE LIFT. AH, A LITTLE BIT OF A DITCH SECTION. YOU CAN SEE ANOTHER THERE. SO THERE YOU HAVE THE WATER COMING DOWN AND A LITTLE BIT OF A DITCH SECTION THAT FLOWS THE WATER OUT TO THE STREET THERE. UH, AGAIN, A BASEMENT ON THIS HOUSE YARD IS THE WHOLE, THE WHOLE, IT DOESN'T, IT'S OTHER THAN THE FRONT YARD, THE WHOLE SIDE AND THE HOUSE, EVERYTHING'S JUST A SWELL, IT'S JUST A COMMON AREA EVERYWHERE. EVEN WITH, EVEN ONCE THERE'S STRAWBERRY OR GREENERY OR WHATEVER ISN'T WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE THAT WOULD WASH INTO THE TOWN SIDEWALL. MM-HMM . AND RED. YEAH, IT COULD MM-HMM . IF WE GET RAIN, LIKE WE HAVE, THAT'S, THAT'S INTENDED TO BE A SWELL RIGHT THERE BESIDE THOSE STEPS, WHICH WOULD HAVE TO BE GO OUT. IT'S NOT GONNA, EVERYTHING'S GONNA RUN TOWARD THE BACK AND DOWN THE SWALE. SO IF YOU LOOK AT THE, THE, THE DRAWING THEY SUBMITTED, SO WATER RUNS PERPENDICULAR TO THE CONTOUR. THAT MEANING IF YOU PUT A RIGHT TRIANGLE ON HERE, THE WATER'S GOING TO RUN LIKE THIS. SO THE WATER'S NOT GONNA RUN THIS WAY, IT'S GONNA RUN THIS DIRECTION. MM-HMM . STRAIGHT RIGHT TOWARDS THE HOUSE, HOUSE UPSTAIRS. SO JUST KEEP THAT IN MIND. AND I KNOW IT'S NOT OUR ROLE TO, UH, THE HOMEOWNER, LIKE THAT'S THEIR, THAT WOULD BE THEIR CHOICE TO PURCHASE A HOME THAT THEY THINK THAT THEY DON'T, THAT THEY'RE NOT ASKING THE SAME QUESTIONS WE'RE ASKING HERE ABOUT THE WATER. RIGHT. UH, MY UNDERSTANDING THAT, UH, THE HOUSES HAVE BEEN SOLD. SO JUST FROM, LET'S, OUR HOUSE, THE HOME I LIVE IN WAS BUILT IN 1986 BY A GENTLEMAN WHO DECIDED HE WANTED TO BE A CONTRACTOR AND OURS WAS THE FIRST HOUSE HE EVER BUILT. OKAY. AND WE, YEAH. MM-HMM . AND WHEN WE BOUGHT IT, UM, IT, IT IS A SPLIT FOYER AND THE BASEMENT LIKE STAYED FLOODED ALL THE TIME. MM-HMM . OKAY. THAT'S BECAUSE THE WATER LOOKS JUST LIKE THAT. I JUST WANT Y'ALL TO KNOW. AND IT JUST WENT RIGHT TO THE BACK DOOR. MM-HMM . UM, I, I, I MARRIED AN EXCAVATOR, RIGHT? SO THAT WAS LIKE ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS HE DID. HE PUT IN A FRENCH DRAIN AND, AND THE PEOPLE THAT LIVED THERE BEFORE US NOT KNOWING, THEY KEPT JUST HAVING PEOPLE COME AND BRING DIRT IN TO BUILD UP THE HILL. 'CAUSE THEY THOUGHT IT WAS NEEDED TO BUILD IT UP. YEAH. ANYWAY, I'M JUST SAYING THAT WE WERE, THE PEOPLE THAT WE BOUGHT THE HOUSE FROM SPENT YEARS COULDN'T EVEN USE THEIR BASEMENT. 'CAUSE IT STAYED FLOODED ALL THE TIME. AND, AND I THINK IT'S BECAUSE SOMEBODY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING. BUT I DO FEEL, I FEEL BAD FOR THESE PEOPLE THAT HAVE PURCHASED THIS HOME. 'CAUSE I DON'T KNOW HOW WATER'S NOT JUST GONNA GO [01:00:01] RIGHT DOWN THERE AND LOOK AT THE SHADE THAT'S THERE, RIGHT THERE. MM-HMM . THE OTHER PART IS, IS THAT GRASS IS GONNA STAY WET AND THERE'S NO SUN THAT'S GONNA RIGHT THAT RIGHT OUT. THAT'S GONNA BE A TOWN ISSUE BECAUSE IT'S GONNA CAUSE A SWAMP, A MOSQUITO AND EVERYBODY'S GONNA BE FRUSTRATED WITH, SO THERE'S SOME MORE PICTURES YOU CALL THE WETLANDS. UH, SO THE OTHER PICTURES OF THE HOME, AGAIN, THE BACKYARD, THEY'RE OUT OF, UH, LOT. NUMBER 30, THEY GOT AN EROSION BLANKET THEY STAPLED DOWN THERE, UH, FOR RIGHT NOW, ANOTHER VIEW OF THE BACKYARD NOW. INTERESTING. NOW THIS IS A HOME THAT HAS BEEN BUILT SOME, SOME TIME AGO. UH, NEXT DOOR, NOT BY THE CURRENT APPLICANT, BUT IT'S UP. WELL, DON'T STEP OFF THERE. UH, SO THERE'S ANOTHER VIEW OF THIS LOT 29. INTERESTING. HERE. UH, YOU HAVE A HOME, A SPLIT LEVEL HOME HERE WITH A STEEPER GRADE GOING FROM THE CURB TO THE HOUSE AND A PATIO WITH SET OF STEPS THAT ARE STEPPED UP, UH, TO USE THAT STEEP SLOPE THERE IN THE, AND THAT'S, THAT'S A, THAT'S GOT A RETAINING WALL TO IT, RIGHT? THAT PATIO IS SERVING AS A RETAINING WALL. SO, YEP. A SO THEY BASICALLY HAVE TWO LEVELS OF A PATIO. YEP. TWO LEVELS OF A PATIO UNDER CONSTRUCTION WITH STEPS THERE. AND THEY WENT RIGHT UP AGAINST THE PROGRAM. WAS IT, WAS THAT DONE WHEN IT WAS BUILT, DO YOU KNOW? NO, AFTERWARDS. SO THEY GOT IT BUILT WITHOUT THAT? YES. THEY, THEY DID THAT THE, THE OR THE PATIO CAME IN AFTER THE FACT, AFTER THE HOUSE. WELL, I'M JUST SAYING THE GRADING WASN'T AN ISSUE FOR THAT HOUSE. UH, SO THERE, HERE YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FLAT LOCK IN THE FRONT AND ONE HERE ADJACENT TO IT WITH STEEP, WITH A SPLIT LEVEL. SO HERE'S 29 AND 30 VERY LITTLE GRADE CHANGE GOING UP THE HILL FROM THE CURB HERE. MM-HMM . MORE GRADING IN THE REAR. UH, THERE'S ANOTHER VIEW 29 HERE, 30 HERE. AND THIS IS AN EXISTING HOME UP HERE. AND YOU CAN KIND OF SEE THEY HAVE A STEEPER GRADE GOING UP TO THE HOUSE WITH A SPLIT LEVEL WHERE IT FRONT END'S EXPOSED. THE BACK OF THE HOUSE IS AT GRADE. MM-HMM . WITH A BASEMENT IN IT. AND THEN THEY TAR THE BACK OF THAT ON THAT. UM, SO ON LOT NUMBER 30 THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT IS A 75% GRADE ACCORDING TO THE PLANS, UH, IF YOU THINK OF IT THAT WAY, OR A 1.4 TO ONE RATIO. UM, SO THAT'S A LOT OF INFORMATION TO TAKE IN. SO WHAT'S BEFORE YOU, THE END OF THIS MONTH IS YOU APPROVING OR DENYING A REVISION TO THE ORIGINAL PLAN, THE GRADING PLAN. SO YOU'RE NOT APPROVING OR DENYING THE RETAINING WALLS. OKAY. SO YOU'RE, THEY'RE ASKING FOR A REVISION OF THE ORIGINAL PLAN. DO NOT INCLUDE RE DO NOT INCLUDE ANY RETAINING WALLS. YES. RIGHT. RETAINING WALLS WAS THE SOLUTION OUR DEPARTMENT CAME UP WITH FOR THE HOUSE TYPE AND A THREE TO ONE SLOPE RATIO. THE ONLY WAY WE COULD SEE A EITHER ONE SLOPE RATIO IS TO PUT RETAINING WALLS IN. THAT'S WHAT WAS APPROVED WITH THE PROPOSED HOUSE. THE WAY THIS WORKS IS THEY'RE ASKING FOR REVISION BASED ON THE SOILS ANALYSIS THAT THEY CAN BUILD SLOPES GREATER THAN A THREE TO ONE AND IT WOULD MEET THE CRITERIA AND PLANNING STAFF STAFF'S RECOMMENDATION IS TO DENY IT. UH, WE DID, UH, SEND, UH, THE SOILS REPORT TO OUR CONSULTANT. UH, THEY DID SAY IS CONCERNING THAT THE REPORT IS BASED ON MODELING ALL FAILURE SURFACES, UH, AS PASSING BENEATH THE HOUSE. IF YOU LOOK IN YOUR SOILS REPORT THAT THEY DID, UH, THEY DID THE ANALYSIS DOWN ON THE FLAT PART OF THE LOT. MM-HMM. THAT'S WHERE THE AUGER PROBES ARE SHOWING IN YOUR REPORT. UH, THE CUT SLOPES, THEY SAID TYPICALLY FAIL. AND GENERALLY, GENERALLY RELATIVELY SHALLOW SLIDES THAT HAPPEN WHEN THE SOILS GET SATURATED FROM RAIN WILL PUSH OUT FROM THE TOE OF THE CUT. UM, THEY DID SAY THAT THE TOWN WOULD RECOMMEND EVALUATION OF POTENTIAL FAILURES THAT SEND SLIDE DEBRIS INTO THE BACKYARD OR INTO THE BACK DOOR. IT DOESN'T APPEAR THAT THE REPORT EVALUATED THOSE SCENARIOS. SO IF YOU LOOK AT YOUR REPORT, WHEN YOU SEE THOSE DOTS ON THERE FOR EACH OF THOSE LOTS, THAT'S WHERE THEY DID THE SOIL SAMPLE FROM. UH, SO WE DID RAISE SOME CONCERNS ABOUT THE REPORT [01:05:01] AND THE FINDINGS, BUT THEIR, UH, GEOTECHNICAL ENGINEER, UH, SAID THAT THE SLOPES WOULD BE STABLE. IT WAS DONE IN NOVEMBER, RIGHT? WAS THAT YEAH, NOVEMBER, DECEMBER, YES. SO I'M TRYING TO THINK IN THE, AS FAR AS OUR DROUGHT, WE GOT ALL THE RAIN IN JANUARY. YEAH. WE ALL GOT IT. AND WINTER IS WHEN THE MOISTURE YEAH. PRECIPITATION HAPPENS. SO, I MEAN, I MEAN, SO YEAH, I WAS JUST TRYING TO POINT THAT, YOU KNOW, THE SOIL SAMPLES AND, AND HOW IT WOULD FLOW WOULD BE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IN A, UM, NON DROUGHT CONDITION AS WELL. OR EVEN THEY, THEY, WE RECEIVED RAIN AND SNOW AFTER THESE SLOPES WERE PUT IN. MM-HMM. BUT THEN YOU'D HAVE TO, YOU HAVE TO PUT DRAINAGE WITHIN THE WALLS, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO PUT LIKE WE AND THE RETAINING WALLS. YEAH. WELL, COUNTY WOULD REQUIRE THAT DOOR. SO, UH, RETAINING WALL, BASICALLY, IF IT HAS UNBALANCED FIELD, MEANING THE GROUND BEHIND THE RETAINING WALL IS HIGHER THAN THE RETAINING WALL THAT'S REQUIRED FOR AN ENGINEERED FOUNDATION ON THE RETAINING WALL, THE COUNTY WOULD'VE REVIEW AND APPROVE THE RETAINING WALLS AND DO THE INSPECTION OF THE RETAINING WALLS. UH, SO THAT'S WHY ON THE RETAINING WALLS THAT WERE BUILT OUT THERE, IF YOU DRIVE BACK THERE AND YOU SEE RETAINING WALLS ON OUR APPROVAL, UH, WE DID PUT ON THERE, THE TOWN SHARES NO RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CONSTRUCTION OR THE MAINTENANCE OF THOSE RETAINING WALLS. YEAH, THAT'S A GOOD POINT. ONE OTHER POINT TOO, I SAID THE RETAINING WALLS AREN'T GONNA RETAIN ANYTHING WITH THE, YOU KNOW, IT'LL, IT'LL, THE EROSION PART, BUT THE WATER'S STILL GONNA COME DOWN. WHETHER IT COMES THROUGH 'EM OR AROUND THEM. THE WATER, YOU KNOW, THE WATER PART IS STILL GOING. IT'S NOT GONNA STOP WATER. IT'S JUST GOING TO EITHER DIVERT IT OR IT'S GOING, YOU KNOW? YEAH. THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENED IN, IN, IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD I LIVE IN. YEAH. UM, BEFORE YOU ALL GOT ON COUNCIL, WE SPENT LIKE A YEAR TALKING ABOUT THAT BECAUSE PEOPLE'S YARDS ARE BEING BIG BECAUSE WATER'S GONNA FIND ITS WAY. OH, YEAH. YEAH. I MEAN, ESPECIALLY THE LAST FEW YEARS. RIGHT. DOES COUNCIL HAVE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR MR. WARE ON THIS PARTICULAR TOPIC? BECAUSE THIS, IF COUNSEL IS READY THAN WE WILL, WE CAN PUT THIS ON THE MARCH 24TH AGENDA, BUT WE CAN'T APPROVE OR DENY IT ADMINISTRATIVELY. RIGHT. BECAUSE IT'S A REVISION OF AN ALREADY AN APPROVED PLAN. RIGHT. SO YOUR CODE REQUIRES, IF WE DON'T THINK WE CAN APPROVE IT ADMINISTRATIVELY, IT GOES TO PLANNING COMMISSION AND THE TOWN COUNCIL TO MAKE A DECISION. DID IT GO TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION? YES, IT CAME WITH THE PLANNING COMMISSION AND THEY DENIED IT. THEY REC, UH, IT'S IN THE PACKET. THEY RECOMMENDED DENIAL. YES. RIGHT. OKAY. SO IF COUNCIL'S READY, WE WILL PUT THIS ON THE 24TH. AND I KNOW IT'S A LOT OF INFORMATION THAT, UH, TRY TO WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND IT. AND IT WAS AN EXTENSIVE, UH, NO. GOOD JOB. STAFF REPORT. GOOD JOB. BUT, UH, I JUST BRING THIS TO ATTENTION. YOU WILL BE SEEING MORE OF THESE IN THE FUTURE, IN THE SAME SUBDIVISION. UH, YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO TELL ME. I WAS JUST, OKAY, NEVERMIND. I GOT YOU. THERE'S SOME ISSUES THERE. OKAY. SO I, I JUST TELL YOU UPFRONT, UH, YOU'LL, UH, SOMEONE, YOU KNOW, SO WHATEVER WE'RE DOING NOW, YOU MIGHT SETTING, SETTING, SETTING THE, OKAY. ON THE 24TH, WE'RE GONNA HIT THIS ON THE 24TH ITEM, IT'LL BE A BUSINESS ITEM. OKAY. SO B, YOU'RE UP NEXT. THAT'S THE REQUEST FOR FINAL SUBDIVISION PLAT APPROVAL FOR MAJOR SUBDIVISION BA IS IT ALLEY BALLOU? ALLEY BALLOON. OKAY. YEAH. FROM, OKAY. YEAH. AND THAT'S THE ONE ON WEST STREET. SO WE NO MORE QUE I MEAN, I KNOW I GAVE YOU A LOT OF INFORMATION. THERE'S LOT OF READING. THAT ONE. UH, I TRIED TO CONDENSE IT DOWN TO EXPLAIN THIS, BUT THE TOPIC WILL COME UP AGAIN WITH YOU JUST SO WE WILL BE VISITING STEEP SLOPES, BASICALLY, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, MOST OF THE NICE LOTS IN TOWN HAVE ALREADY BEEN BUILT ON. RIGHT. SO THEN THE REMAINING PARCELS WE HAVE HAVE SOME TYPE OF ISSUES TO 'EM. AND STEEP SLOPES IS ONE OF THE HINDRANCE. HOW YOU DEVELOP THIS. THEY CAN BE DEVELOPED. IT'S JUST THE METHOD YOU GO ABOUT DEVELOPING THOSE IN A COST ASSOCIATED, IN A COST ASSOCIATED. CORRECT. SO, UH, AND THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT, WE HAVE NO REQUIREMENT FOR AN INDEPENDENT ENGINEER. 'CAUSE THEY'RE PAYING FOR THE ENGINEER STUDY, RIGHT? OR FOR THE GEOTECHNIC REPORT. YEAH. YEAH. WE REACHED OUT TO OUR CONSULTANT FOR THEM TO BRIEFLY LOOK OVER AND THAT, THAT'S CONTAINED IN YOUR PACKET. THEY DID A COUPLE BULLET POINTS ON THE EMAIL. THEY DIDN'T WANNA DO A COMPREHENSIVE REVIEW UNLESS COUNSEL RE WOULD LIKE THEM TO REVIEW THAT , I'M GONNA ASSUME. YEAH. OKAY. I THINK WE'LL MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ITEM. OKAY. SO THE NEXT ITEM, OH YEAH, I'M SORRY. YEP. SO THIS IS A REQUEST FOR A FINAL SUBDIVISION PLAT, UH, FOR A MAJOR SUBDIVISION, UH, SUBMITTED BY ALI BALOO, UH, FOR TRACK OF LAND THERE AT 3 36 WEST STRASSBURG ROAD. UH, [01:10:01] SO THE PRELIMINARY PLAN WENT TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION, UH, PLANNING COMMISSION APPROVED THE PRELIMINARY PLAN. NOW, PRELIMINARY PLANS DO NOT COME TO TOWN COUNCIL. SO THAT'S THE ROLE OF THE PLANNING COMMISSION. SO THE PRELIMINARY PLAN CAME TO TOWN, UH, PLANNING COMMISSION, AND THEY APPROVED THE PRELIMINARY PLAN. SO THEIRS IS WHERE THE PARCEL SETS AT 3 36, UH, WEST STRASSBURG ROAD HERE AND FOREST HILL DRIVE HERE. YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THAT AREA. AND THAT'S THE NURSING HOME. RIGHT? THAT'S HERE IN CHARLES. THAT'S THE NURSING HOME. UH, NOW I UNDERSTAND YOU, UH, YOU HAD, UH, A RESIDENT, UH, THAT HAD BROUGHT ISSUES ABOUT DRAINAGE MM-HMM . YEP. IN THE PUBLIC, IN THE PUBLIC COMMENTS LAST TIME IN THE PUBLIC THAT SAY SPREADS RIGHT OVER THERE. RIGHT? THAT'S THEIR LITTLE RAY. YES. LITTLE RAY, YES. OKAY. YEAH. SO, UH, WE LOOKED INTO THIS AFTER THE FACT, AFTER THE RESIDENT HAD CONCERNS. UH, WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT LATER. BUT THIS DEVELOPMENT WILL NOT AFFECT THAT RESIDENT. OKAY. OKAY. JUST TO KEEP THAT IN MIND. UH, AND THE REASON IS THE CONTOURING SHOWS THE WATER GOING THIS DIRECTION AND AWAY FROM THAT PROPERTY. SO IT WILL NOT AFFECT, UH, THE RESIDENT HAD COMPLAINTS ABOUT, UH, THIS FUTURE PROJECT. UH, SO THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OUTLINE OF THE PROPERTY AGAIN, OFF FOREST HILL DRIVE. SO YOU'RE WHAT BEFORE YOU TO APPROVE OR DENY IS THE SUBDIVISION PLAT PRELIMINARY PLAN HAS BEEN APPROVED. SO BASICALLY WITHIN YOUR CODE, WE TAKE THE CHECKLIST WITHIN THE CODE AND WE MATCH THESE UP WITH EVERYTHING THAT'S REQUIRED IN YOUR CODE. SO THEY WILL PUT A NEW ROAD ALLEYWAY OFF OF FOREST HILL, UH, ROAD HERE. THEY WILL, UH, WE'RE, UH, LOOKING TO SUBDIVIDE THE LOTS. THIS WOULD BE A RESIDUE LOT, MEANING THE REMAINDER AND THE STORM WATER MANAGEMENT WOULD BE IN THIS CORNER. SO THEY WOULD, UH, STORM WATER MANAGEMENT WOULD GO IN THIS LOT AND THE WATER WOULD DRAIN AFTER IT'S FILTERED THROUGH THERE. AND CONTAINED WOULD GO IN THIS DIRECTION, NOT IN THE DIRECTION OF THE NURSING HOME. WHAT'S 22? UH, THAT'S WITHIN THE CHECKLIST. SO, UH, IF YOU HAVE A CHECKLIST, I THINK THAT WAS INCLUDED IN YOUR PACKET, UH, YOUR TOWN CODE AND, UH, SHOWS ALL THE CHECKLIST ITEMS, RIGHT? SO WHAT WE DID FOR THE PLANNING COMMISSION, ALL THOSE ITEMS THAT ARE NUMBERED THERE, UH, FOR THEM TO REVIEW AND GLANCE AT IT, TO MAKE SURE THAT THE ENGINEER RECORD AND THE SURVEYOR INCLUDED EVERYTHING WITHIN YOUR TOWN CODE. UH, WE FOUND NO DEFICIENCIES IN THIS PLAT. IT MADE ALL THE CRITERIA WITHIN YOUR CODE FOR THIS LOT. AND THE PLANNING COMMISSION RECOMMENDED APPROVAL, BUT IT TAKES TOWN COUNCIL APPROVAL FOR THE LOT. SO THE NEXT STEP WOULD BE APPROVAL, UH, WITH THE SIGNATURES. AND THEY RECORD THAT AT THE COURTHOUSE TO OFFER THOSE LOTS. THAT WASN'T ME. WE MUST A LOT. OH, THERE WE, OKAY. UH, ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS ONE? SO IT MEETS ALL PARTS OF, OF YOUR CODE REGARDING, UH, THE LOT SIZE SETBACK, ROAD WIDTH, PUBLIC WORKS, REVIEWED IT, ENERGY SERVICES, REVIEWED IT, FANNING COMMISSION REVIEWED IT. UH, AND THE WATER, THE WATER FOR PEOPLE ARE NOT GONNA COME TO COUNCIL. WELL, NOBODY'S GONNA COME BACK LATER AND SAY THE RUNOFF FROM THAT'S GOING INTO THEIR PROPERTY. SO THE NEXT STEP, PRELIMINARY PLAN, SUBDIVISION PLAN. OKAY. THE NEXT STEP, THEN THEY HAVE TO SUBMIT THE SITE DEVELOPMENT PLAN. OKAY. AND THAT'S WHERE THEY'RE GONNA ADDRESS TO MAKE SURE THE STORM WATER. SO WE, WE DO NOT REVIEW STORM WATER. THAT'S COUNTY, UH, THE VIRGINIA DEPARTMENT ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY. THEY'RE THE PROGRAM AUTHORITY. THEY WILL DO ALL THE CAL, CHECK ALL THE CALCULATIONS, UH, HAVE COMMENTS FOR THE DEVELOPER AND DETERMINE IF HIS CALCULATIONS ARE CORRECT AND HOW THEY'RE GONNA ADDRESS THE STORM WATER. DO THEY, THEY ACTUALLY VISIT THE SITE OR DO THEY JUST REVIEW PLANS? UH, I DON'T KNOW OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. UH, THEY HAVE, UH, THEY DO REVIEW THE PLANS. THEY MAY MAKE SITE VISITS. I DON'T KNOW. THAT'S A DIFFERENT AGENCY WE HAVE. NO, WE'RE NOT THE PROGRAM AUTHORITY FOR THAT. THAT GOES TO THE COUNTY. THE COUNTY OPTED OUT AND TRANSFERRED THAT RESPONSIBILITY TO THE STATE. SO THAT WOULD BE THE, AFTER THIS, THIS WOULD COME BACK TO YOU WITH THE SITE DEVELOPMENT PLAN. SO THIS JUST AUTHORIZES THEM. YOU'RE GIVING THEM AUTHORITY. YOU'RE APPROVING THESE FOR THE LOTS TO BE SUBDIVIDED. ALL RIGHT. DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR MR. WARE? IF NOT, THIS IS ACTUALLY GONNA BE, WELL, LET ME JUST MAKE SURE. UM, STAFF RECOMMENDS REIMBURSEMENT AND BE PLACED UNDER THE CONSENT AGENDA FOR MARCH 24TH. THAT'S THE ONE CALLED COALITION. SORRY. I'M SO SORRY. . MY GOSH. YOU CAN TELL I WAS, UH, I PROBABLY YOU WITH THIS. I WAS MOVING AHEAD. SORRY. [01:15:01] SO DO WE. UM, SO ARE YOU ALL OKAY WITH PUTTING THAT ON THE 24TH? OKAY. YEAH. SORRY. IT'LL BE A BUSINESS . SO IT'LL BE A BUSINESS. MM-HMM . OKAY. NOW ON TO THE NEXT ONE. BELIEVE IT OR NOT, JOHN, THAT'S YOU TOO. THAT'S THE REQUEST FOR I, AS I WAS READING THAT, I THOUGHT WHAT WE REIMBURSE, SORRY, IT'S LONG DAY , I PROBABLY YOUR BRAIN FRIED WITH ALL THIS INFORMATION. SO. YEP. THAT'S NOT JUST YOU, JOHN, BUT GO AHEAD. SO THE RE YEAH, SO THE NEXT THING IS THAT, UH, A REIMBURSEMENT AT REQUEST TO REIMBURSE FOR AN SUP APPLICATION FEE FOR WARREN COALITION. AND JOHN, YOU'RE YOU'RE ON THIS ONE, BUT, BUT I DON'T BUT GO AHEAD. I WAS GONNA SAY, I DON'T, I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT YOU, BASICALLY THEY'RE ASKING FOR A WAIVER OF THE FEES, RIGHT? NO, I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY'RE ASKING. I'M JUST NOT SURE THAT THERE'S ANYTHING YOU NEED TO PRESENT FOR THAT. IT'S PROBABLY SELF-EXPLANATORY. YEAH. WE'VE DONE IT FOR NUMEROUS NON-PROFITS, AND MR. SON MAY WEIGH IN. I JUST HAVE A BRIEF COMMENT. YEP. AS FAR AS THE LEGALITY. SO IT'S REALLY A DONATION IS WHAT IT IS. MM-HMM . AND STATE LAW ENABLES THIS. ANY LOCALITY MAY MAKE APPROPRIATIONS OF PUBLIC FUNDS TO ANY CHARITABLE INSTITUTION OR ASSOCIATION IF SUCH INSTITUTION OR ASSOCIATION PROVIDES SERVICES TO RESIDENTS OF THE LOCALITY. SO I I I GO THROUGH THAT EX EXERCISE. SO THIS CAN BE DISTINGUISHED FROM MAYBE SOME FUTURE REQUESTS, RIGHT? THAT MAY NOT FIT. THIS IS A, THIS IS JUST A STRANGE QUESTION BECAUSE THIS ISN'T THE FIRST TIME WE'VE DONE THAT. WE'VE BEEN REQUESTED DO THINGS LIKE THIS. UM, NOT ONLY WOULD IF IT, IF APPROVED THAT YOU'RE WAIVING THE $400 PAID, BUT THE TOWN INCURS AN EXPENSE BECAUSE WE RIGHT. BECAUSE WE HAVE TO ADVERTISE FOR IT, RIGHT. FOR AN SUP OR NO, IT'S NOT LIKE THERE'S ANYTHING SPECIAL. IT'S ALL PART OF IT, RIGHT? WHAT LEATHER? SOMEBODY'S NON NOT, WHAT IS IT? WELL, SO THE SUP APPLICATION IS A $400 FEE BY YOUR CODE. RIGHT? RIGHT. TOWN CODE. YEAH. SO PART OF THAT WITH AN SUP, UH, GOES TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION AND THE TOWN COUNCIL ADVERTISEMENT FOR THE PLANNING COMMISSION IN THE PAPER AND ADVERTISEMENT FOR TOWN COUNCIL IN THE PAPER WHERE, 'CAUSE IT'S A PUBLIC HEARING. WHAT TOWN DOES INCUR COSTS FOR ADVERTISING? UH, SUVS. ANY SUP? THAT'S, THAT'S ALL I MEANT. IT, IT HONESTLY, THE, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IT POPPED UP IN MY HEAD. OVER ALL THE YEARS THAT WE'VE DONE THIS, IN MY MIND I STARTED THINKING, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A, I MEAN THERE'S, IT'S NOT JUST, IT'S COMPLETELY A COST. YOU KNOW, THERE, THERE IS A COST. IT MIGHT NOT LOOK LIKE THERE'S A COST. BUT WHEN WE WERE DECIDING WHAT THE FEES WOULD BE FOR EACH OF THESE THINGS, WHICH I THINK WAS BEFORE ANYBODY ON THIS COUNCIL THERE, WE, WE SET OUR FEES AND WE BASED IT ON OTHER AREAS AND STUFF. UM, THAT WAS WHERE SOME OF THESE NUMBERS CAME FROM, WAS BECAUSE STAFF TALKED ABOUT LIKE HOW MUCH STAFF TIME FOR THAT. LIKE SOME THINGS ARE EASIER, BUT IT ALSO WAS TO INCLUDE ADVERTISING. UM, JUST OUTTA CURIOSITY, WHAT I KNOW THIS IS RIGHT OFF THE TOP OF ANYBODY'S HEAD. WHAT DOES IT COST TO ADVERTISE FOR THIS? LIKE, DO WE HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT KIND? WELL, IT DEPENDS. 'CAUSE YOU ADVERTISE FOUR OR FIVE AT A TIME. OKAY. SO FOUR OR FIVE AT A TIME MIGHT BE $500. OKAY. AND THAT'S FOR ONE WEEK, WE HAVE TO DO IT TWO WEEKS. OKAY. THAT WAS MY POINT. I THINK AT THE LAST MEETING ABOUT KLER STREET. IT'S NOT JUST THE COST OF THE STREET THAT WE'RE SELLING. I WANT STAFF TIME IN HELPING THEM FIX AN ERROR. RIGHT. AND OUR ADVERTISING COST, I MEAN, I, YEAH, I WANTED TO SEE US TRY TO RECOVER SOME OF THAT. RIGHT. I MEAN, WE'RE DOING THEM A PRETTY BIG FAVOR. RIGHT. THAT'S KINDA WHY. THAT'S KIND OF WHY I THINK THAT'S WHAT POPPED UP, POPPED IN MY HEAD WAS AFTER, YOU KNOW, IT WAS JUST THE IDEA THAT, THAT THERE IS A COST TO THE TOWN FOR THIS. WE'RE NOT JUST WAIVING, UM, THE APPLICATION VIA 400. THAT'S WHY I THINK, LIKE GEORGE SAID, CALLING A DONATION MAKES MORE SENSE BECAUSE WE ARE DONATING SOMETHING THAT'S OF VALUE. WELL, IN THIS INSTANCE IS, IF I'M CORRECT, THEY'VE ALREADY PAID FOR IT, WHICH IS MAYBE REIMBURSING. YEAH. WELL NORMALLY DON'T THEY US NORMALLY ASK FOR THE WAIVER IN ADVANCE, RIGHT? OR NO? WELL, WE, WE CANNOT ACCEPT AN APPLICATION WITHOUT PAYMENT. OH, I SEE. OKAY. NO, THEY ALWAYS HAVE TO PAY. AND IS THIS THE, UM, THE NEST OR WHATEVER THEY'RE ON NORTH ROW, THE BIG HOUSE THE LADIES ARE NOW OCCUPYING? UH, NO, THIS IS FOR AN APPLICATION. UH, I BELIEVE, UH, [01:20:02] FOR ANOTHER, DID I GIVE AN ADDRESS THERE? 5 0 6 NORTH ROYAL AVENUE FOR A LODGING HOUSE. BUT THAT IS WHAT I THINK, I THINK THEY BELONGED TO HELEN SMITH YEARS AGO. WELL, THIS IS, ISN'T THIS THE ONE THE VAULT OWNED AND THE MEN WERE THERE AND THEN THE WOMEN? YEAH. BUT I THINK THAT ALL THAT ALL CHANGED. NOW THIS IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT. THIS IS A DIFFERENT HOUSE. RIGHT, RIGHT. NO, I KNOW, I KNOW. I CAN REMEMBER THAT ADDRESS. YEAH, YOU GO. SO YEAH, NO, THE BLOCK WAS UP BY, BY, UH, AL STREET. THIS ONE IS STILL THE SAME WENT, BUT THE WOMEN, IT DIDN'T WORK OUT. SOMETHING DIDN'T WORK OUT WITH YEAH, WITH THAT. THIS IS THE SAME HOMEOWNER AND STUFF THOUGH. SO IT'S THE SAME, IT SEEMINGLY THE SAME PLAN. OKAY. OKAY. OKAY. UM, SO, UH, I HAD PIANO LESSONS IN THAT HOUSE. YOU DID. YOU I, SHE FIRED ME BECAUSE BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T TRACK. I HAD PINE TAR ON MY HANDS FROM PLAYING BASEBALL. OH, YOU GOT ON HER PIANO KEYS. AND I MESSED UP HER IRS. OH MY GOSH. THAT'S WHY I TOOK UP THE HORN . JUST TO LIGHTEN THINGS UP A LITTLE BIT. OH, I LOVE IT. I LOVE ANYONE. I LOVE THOSE. WHY BRUCE GOT KICKED OUT, BRUCE, BECAUSE THAT'S JUST HORRIBLE. SO IS THERE ANY DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS? BECAUSE, UM, IF, IF EVERYBODY'S GOOD WITH IT, THEN STAFF'S GONNA RECOMMEND, OR STAFF RECOMMENDS REIMBURSEMENT AND PUTTING IT ON THE CONSENT AGENDA. SO CONSENT AGENDA, THAT'S WHAT THIS ONE WOULD BE ON. OKAY. I WOULD, I WOULD FIND IT VERY INTERESTING TO KNOW OVER THE COURSE OF A YEAR, ALL THE DIFFERENT WAIVERS THAT WE'VE DONE, WHAT IT'S ACTUALLY COST US IN ADVERTISING PIECE. I, I THINK IT'D BE INTERESTING. NOT THAT IT'S GONNA CHANGE ANYTHING. I'D LIKE FOR US TO BE ABLE TO SAY TO THE PUBLIC, YOU KNOW, THESE ARE, THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT, YOU KNOW, BY DOING THIS, THIS IS HOW WE'VE, YOU KNOW, CONTRIBUTED TO THE COMMUNITY. THIS IS HOW WE'VE CONTRIBUTED TO THE COMMUNITY. YOU KNOW, WE DON'T DONATE NECESSARILY TO NONPROFIT, BUT, BUT IT IS, IT IS, IT'S, IT'S LIKE A DONATION AS GEORGE SAID. SO BE JUST, I'D JUST BE CURIOUS. WALK TO THE CHURCHES AND YEAH. YEP. ALL THE THINGS THAT WE DO THAT, THAT, UM, AND SO THAT THE CITIZEN CITIZENS CAN FEEL THAT, YOU KNOW, PRIDE IN THAT THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT WE'VE DONE FOR, FOR PEOPLE. ALL RIGHT. YOU KNOW, AND BUT, BUT YOU GET THE PAYBACK FOR WHAT THESE RIGHT. NONPROFITS. YEAH. NO, I UNDERSTAND. UNDERSTAND. I'M JUST SAYING THAT SOME. YEAH, THAT'S I DIGRESS. D UH, 3D IS A REQUEST FOR SIDEWALK WAIVER FOR, UH, 10, 10 11 AND 10 13 VIRGINIA AVENUE BY AARON HEIGHT. THAT'S A REQUEST FOR SIDEWALK WAIVER, CURB AND GUTTER AND SIDEWALK WAIVER. UH, SO THAT'S CONTAINED IN YOUR REPORT. TOWN CODE 1 48 8 50 D ONE ALLOWS, UH, TOWN COUNCIL TO WAIVE, UH, DO A SIDEWALK AND CURB AND GUTTER WAIVER, EVEN THOUGH TOWN CODE REQUIRES THAT FOR DEVELOPMENT. UH, PART OF THE, UH, UH, PART OF THAT TOWN'S PAVING PLAN, UH, ANTICIPATES INSTALLING CURB AND GUTTER ON THIS PORTION OF VIRGINIA AVENUE IN 2026. SO THIS AREA IS UNDER CONSIDERATION IN 2026 TO HAVE CURB AND GUTTER AND NEW PAVING INSTALLED ALONG, UH, THIS PORTION OF THE STREET. UH, AND THE COST OF ROUGHLY 300. AND WE, WE'LL JUST ROUND AT $375,000 OF TOWNS DONE IN CURB FOR IMPROVEMENTS ON VIRGINIA AVENUE. MM-HMM . UH, SO, UM, SO THERE'S A PHOTOGRAPH STOP, UH, PHOTOGRAPHS WE TOOK, UM, OF THE SIDEWALK OR LACK OF SIDEWALK AND CURB AND GUTTER. THOSE ARE FOR TWO LOTS THERE. UM, SO HE HAS, UH, UH, PERMITS TO BE ABLE A DUPLEX THERE. UH, BUT TOWN CODE REQUIRES CURB, GUTTER AND SIDEWALK AT THE, ALONG THOSE STREETS. WHEN THEY DEVELOP THAT, UH, THEY'RE ASKING FOR A WAIVER FOR NOT FOR THE INSTALLATION OF THAT. UH, SO THERE'S THE OVERALL VIEW. SO WE DO HAVE THIS IN THE PAVING PLAN FROM EIGHTH STREET UP TO 11TH STREET, AND IT'LL PROBABLY CONTINUE TO 12TH STREET. SO THIS WHOLE SECTION HERE IN THE 2026 PAVING PLAN IS FOR NEW CURB AND GUTTER AND SIDEWALK AND ADDITIONAL PAVING TO WIDEN THAT STREET. SO THAT'S THE ONE REASON, UH, THEY'RE ASKING FOR A WAIVER ON THAT. VIRGINIA AVENUE'S GONNA GET SIDEWALKS BEFORE OUR SCHOOL DISTRICTS WHO MADE THIS [01:25:01] PLAN. WELL, THEY'RE GONNA TEAR UP THE STREET, FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND FROM PUBLIC WORKS, THEY GOTTA REPLACE WATER. SO THEY'RE DOING INFRASTRUCTURE WORK AND THEY'RE GONNA DO IT AT THE SAME TIME. THEY ONLY, IT'S A WATER SEAL WELL BEFORE THAT. THEY WERE TEARING IT UP AND PIECING IT BACK TOGETHER A COUPLE YEARS AGO. I THINK IT'S GONNA ALL BE DONE AT ONCE. SO THERE'S DOING IT RIGHT, THERE'S UP THERE WHERE THERE'S A JUNCTURE THEY'RE GONNA CLEAN THAT UP. AND YES, AS WE'RE PAVING, WE'RE, UH, IMPROVING THE CURB AND GUTTERS IT, UH, MAKES THE ASPHALT LAST LONGER. THE PAVING LAST LONGER. MM-HMM . HAVE, WE ARE ALREADY SECURE THE FUNDS FOR THIS. I WAS GONNA SAY, IS IT BUDGETED? IT'S, IT'S, UH, PLANNED TO BE BUDGETED FOR 26. YOU KNOW, WHETHER THAT HAPPENS OR NOT DEPENDS ON THINGS THAT HAPPEN BETWEEN NOW AND THEN. YOU HAVE A PAYMENT PLAN THOUGH, THROUGHOUT TOWN AND HE CORRECT. OR YOU CAN SEE THAT IN YOUR RIGHT. THAT'S IN THE REPORT. YEAH. SO IT'S JUST ONE OF THE STREETS THAT'S BEEN SET ASIDE FOR, UH, STREET IMPROVEMENTS, WHICH WE ARE WELL AWARE IS GOING TO BE PUSHED BACK. SORRY. BY, BY TIME KIDS GET IN SCHOOL OVER. THAT'S . SO CAN YOU GIVE A LITTLE MORE INSIGHT TO HOW THAT BOND WORKS? SO THE BASICALLY, UM, UH, THE BOND IS HELD. UH, THE APPLICANT WOULD PAID THE TOWN X AMOUNT OF DOLLARS. UH, AND WE WOULD HOLD ON TO THOSE FUNDS UNTIL THE WORK IS COMPLETED. AND WHEN THE TOWN COMPLETES THE FUND OR COMPLETES THE WORK, WE WOULD TAKE THE FUNDS . WELL, IT'LL HAVE TO BE THE PRECEDENTS GOING FORWARD. 'CAUSE WE'VE ALREADY VOTED ON MULTIPLE OF THESE IN THE LAST, SINCE THIS COUNCIL SAT HERE. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WE'VE EVER DONE THIS. I KNOW THIS. I KNOW, I REMEMBER THE ONE WE DID THAT WAS A HABITAT FOR HUMANITY HOUSE. RIGHT. I KNOW THAT. YEAH. I REMEMBER WHEN WE DISCUSSED THAT. AND THAT WAS, IT WAS, IT WAS A CONTENTIOUS DISCUSSION BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT, WHAT GOING FORWARD. I THINK THE CHALLENGE, THAT WASN'T THE LAST ONE EITHER. NO, WE DID ONE, WE HAD, WE DISCUSSED IT, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT OUR 15TH STREET SCHOOL, I BELIEVE IT WAS. WE HAD ONE OFF OF 18TH AND GEORGE BANKS BOULEVARD. IT WAS ON THE CORNER AND BY BEN CROSBY. CROSBY, THE ONE ON GEORGE BANKS. AND 18TH WAS JUST A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO. THE BEING CROSBY ONE THOUGH, 18. WE DID. WE, YEAH, GEORGE BANKS BOULEVARD WAS BEHIND THE 15TH STREET SCHOOL. MM-HMM. THE ONE WE DID MOST RECENTLY WAS OFF GEORGE BANKS BOULEVARD OVER WHERE THE CAR WAS, IS BEING BUILT UP BEHIND THERE. UP IN THERE. BUT THE ONE ON BEING THE ONE BY BEING CRO CRO, WE DIDN'T, WE DID, WE THEY DID HAVE TO PAY. I WAS GONNA SAY, AS I RECALL, THAT'S, THAT, THAT'S THE MOST RECENT ONE. CROSBY, I DON'T THINK OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT MAKES THIS KIND OF CHALLENGING, I THINK IS THAT THE CHALLENGE'S BEEN ALL OVER THE PLACE IN YEARS. YOU KNOW, I MEAN, IN YEARS THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A TIME WHERE, UM, YES, WE HAD A SPECIAL ASSESSMENT ON THE, AND THERE SPLEENS THAT ARE STILL OUTSTANDING FOR CURB GUTTERS THAT WERE YEAH. AND I, I KNOW LIKE THEY, WHEN THEY DID THE SIDEWALKS OR THE CURB AND GUTTER SALE, THAT'S WHAT IT WAS CALLED. AND THAT WAS IN THE, THE NINETIES, BROTHER. I KNOW. I WAS, I I DIDN'T, DIDN'T MEAN IT BECAUSE OF THAT. JUST, WE PARTICIPATED. WE TOO. SO IT WAS ONE THAT MY BROTHER WAS ON TOWN COUNCIL, THEY DID LIKE CURB AND GUTTER AND YOU COULD PAY HALF HALF OF WHAT IT WAS IF YOU PAID FOR IT THEN. AND THAT'S HOW THEY GOT SOME THINGS DONE. AND I KNOW WE PAID FOR IT AT MY HOUSE. AND THEN THE TOWN CAME IN AND PAVED BECAUSE THEY WERE DOING IT BY HOUSE, BY HOUSE. THEY GO TO THIS HOUSE, THEN THEY GO TO THIS HOUSE AND THEN, YOU KNOW, AND IT WAS LITERALLY BY LIKE YOUR ORDER IN WHICH YOU HAD PAID. AND WE WERE WAITING AND THEY SAID, IF YOU WAIT THIS YEAR IN THE PLAN, WE'RE GONNA PAVE YOUR WHOLE STREET. AND THEN IT WON'T BE DONE LIKE PIECEMEAL. IT'LL BE DONE ALL AT ONE TIME. AND THEY DID, UM, IT WAS IN THE SUMMER, IT WAS DECEMBER OR SEPTEMBER OF 2003 AND THERE, 'CAUSE WE DID THE, MY MOM'S FUNERAL, SAME DAY. IT WAS ALL GOING ON. AND, BUT WE PAID , BUT NONE OF OUR NEIGHBORS PAID UP FRONT, RIGHT? MM-HMM . BUT IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING, WELL, I'M NOT SAYING NONE OF SOME OF MY NEIGHBORS DIDN'T PAY, DIDN'T PAY UP FRONT. SO THEY PUT A LIEN ON THEIR PROPERTY, RIGHT? MM-HMM . YEP. SO AT THAT POINT THEY DIDN'T. YEAH. SO, AND I KNOW WHEN, ONCE I GOT ON COUNCIL, I KEPT ASKING THIS QUESTION IS, IS THAT THOSE LIENS ARE STILL THERE. YEP. BUT THEY NO LONGER DO THAT. LIKE THEY STOP. I MEAN, THEN THE COUNCIL GOT INTO, THEY WEREN'T ASKING ANYBODY TO PAY FOR CURB AND GUTTER MM-HMM . RIGHT. WHICH IS KINDA WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT HERE TONIGHT. WHAT'S TRICKY ABOUT THAT IS, I'M JUST, AND AT THE TIME WHEN I ASKED THIS QUESTION, SOMEBODY [01:30:01] ON TOWN STAFF SAID, MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE SAYING THIS OUT. LIKE, LIKE, BUT I'M STRAIGHTFORWARD. I FEEL BAD BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT HAVE LIENS ON THEIR PROPERTY FOR CURB AND GUTTER, AND, BUT THEN OTHER PEOPLE DON'T CURB AND GUTTER CAME INTO THEIR STREET AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING. AND I'M A VERY, I'M VERY FAIR BOND PERSON. AND I'M LIKE, THAT JUST DOESN'T, I FEEL BAD FOR THE PEOPLE THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT, UH, ONE DAY WHEN THEY SELL THEIR PROPERTY, THEY'RE, THE LIEN'S GONNA HAVE TO BE PAID OFF. RIGHT? YEP. AND IT, AND IT'S A LOT. IT'S NOT LIKE FIVE OR 10 PEOPLE AS I RECALL THAT. YEAH. IT'S A LOT OF, THERE'S STILL A LOT OF OUTSTANDING LIENS. WE HAVE BOOKS OF THEM. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH. AND THEY DON'T GET PAID UNTIL THE PROPERTY IS SOLD, TYPICALLY. WELL, THEY COULD PAY THEM. YEAH, THEY CAN PAY 'EM IN ANY TIME. BUT THAT'S THE FINAL SOLUTION. THAT'S THE, AND THERE'S NO INTEREST TO INCUR ON IT, RIGHT? YES, THERE IS INTEREST. OH, OKAY. SORRY. SO IF SOMEBODY COULDN'T AFFORD IT, THERE WAS NO CONSIDERATION OF THAT. NO, I DON'T LIKE THAT. BUT ANYWAY, BUT , I THINK, WHAT, I MEAN, THAT'S NOT YESTERDAY, BUT WE GOT TOMORROW TO LOOK AT. YEAH. THE, THE ONLY QUESTION I HAD ABOUT THE BOND WAS, UM, GIVEN, LET'S SAY THE, THE MONEY'S NOT THERE FOR THE PROJECT IN 20, 26, 27, 28 MOVES ON OUT. UH, IS THERE, IS THERE ANY LIKE, UH, ANY CPI ADJUSTMENT? NO. SO BASICALLY IT WON'T KEEP UP WITH INFLATION. IT'S A MOMENT IN TIME. OKAY. AND WE ALL SITTING THERE ON THIS TABLE KNOW WE DON'T HAVE THE MONEY FOR PAVING IN 2026. WE'RE SCRAPING UP COINS TO GET THE THINGS THAT WE'RE REQUIRED TO HAVE. WELL, BONDS ARE INTEREST. AND SO IF IT'S 27 OR 28, THE COSTS AREN'T EVEN GOING BE THE SAME. CORRECT. IT WON'T BE COMFORTABLE. IT COULD BE SIGNIFICANTLY LESS DEPENDING ON WHAT THE MARKET DOES. COULD BE. BUT YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T IMPRESSION. WELL, IF, IF THE AMOUNT CHANGES, DO WE, WE ABSORB IT. OKAY. WE, IT, WE ABSORB IT IF IT IS NOT ENOUGH, BUT WE DON'T GIVE BACK ANY, IF IT'S, I MEAN, THE ODDS OF THAT HAPPENING SLIM ENOUGH. BUT I'M EXACTLY, I'M JUST SAYING IF IT, IF IT DID, MORE THAN LIKELY, WE'LL TAKE A LOOK. IF IT DID HAPPEN TO COME IN UNDER, YES, WE WOULD GIVE THE FUNDS BACK. OH, THAT'S GOOD TO KNOW. UNDETERMINED AMOUNT OF LATER. AND I THINK THEY WOULD PROBABLY, YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE WOULD HAVE TO KEEP ON TOP OF THAT. THEY'RE GONNA HAVE TO BE THE ONES TO INITIATE THE REQUEST FOR THAT. THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. WHO KNOWS HOW MANY YEARS LATER IT'S GONNA BE, BECAUSE HOW MANY TIMES DOES THE SECONDARY PAVING PLAN THE PRIMARY PAVING PLANS? I MEAN, THAT'S OUR HOPE. THAT'S RIGHT. ALL RIGHT, COUNSEL. UM, THE, WE JUST NEED TO KNOW WHETHER THIS IS, WOULD GO ON THE 24TH, WHETHER YOU WANT ON CONSENT OR BUSINESS. OKAY. SO STAFF'S RECOMMENDATION, I'M, I'M READING WHAT STAFF'S RECOMMENDATION IS THAT COUNCIL REQUIRE A BOND IN PLACE OF SIDEWALK CONSTRUCTION, WHICH WOULD NOT CREATE A SIDEWALK TO NOWHERE SITUATION, BUT WOULD ALLOW THE TOWN TO COMPENSATED FOR THE COST OF THE INSTALLING THE CURB AND GUTTER SIDEWALK. AND THE REST OF THE STREET IS COMPLETED. IF COUNSEL IS GOOD WITH IT, IF, IF THEY AGREE WITH THAT OR, OR THEY, WE JUST NEED TO DECIDE, DO YOU ALL WANT THIS ON CONSENT OR DO YOU WANT THIS ON BUSINESS? IF IT'S ON BUSINESS, WE'LL VOTE FOR IT. THEY'LL TAKE ACTION ON IT INDIVIDUALLY. IF IT'S ON THE CONSENT AGENDA, IT WOULD BE, IT WOULD BE PART OF A LARGER GROUP. I DON'T KNOW WHY I'M EXPLAINING THAT TO YOU ALL. 'CAUSE I KNOW YOU ALL KNOW IT. , I'M JUST FOR THE PUBLIC AND ANYBODY'S LIKE WHAT'S TAKING, UNLESS FROM UNIFORM AND HOW WE FEEL TONIGHT, HOW IT COULD BE ON THE CONSENT AGREEMENT. AGREED. THAT, THAT'S, I'M AWARE WE MIGHT WANT TO SEE IF THERE'S A CONSENSUS THEN. YEAH, WELL THE, YEAH. I MEAN, WE'RE NOT REALLY TAKING A VOTE ON TONIGHT, BUT IT'S WHETHER OR NOT WE WANT, I DO NOT THINK IT SHOULD BE IN THE CONSENT. CONSENT. ALL RIGHT. I AGREE. NOT CONSENT. NOT CONSENT. ALL IT'LL BE A BUSINESS ITEM. THAT'S ENOUGH. THAT'S ENOUGH RIGHT THERE. ALRIGHT. MOVING ON TO, UM, YEAH, MADAM MAYOR, WE YEAH. I MOVE THAT TOWN COUNCIL, CONVENE A CLOSED MEETING PURSUANT TO SECTION 2.2 DASH 3 7 1 1 [01:35:01] AND 2.2 DASH 3 7 1 2 OF THE CODE OF VIRGINIA FOR THE FOLLOWING PURPOSE. ONE PURSUANT TO 2.2 DASH 3 7 1 A, ONE OF THE CODE OF VIRGINIA FOR THE DISCUSSION. CONSIDERATION ASSIGNMENT, APPOINTMENT FOR MOTION PERFORMANCE. TWO MOTIONS SALARY DISCIPLINING OR RESIGNATION OF SPECIFIC PUBLIC OFFICERS, APPOINTEES OR EMPLOYEES OF ANY PUBLIC BODY. MORE SPECIFICALLY THE TOWN MANAGER POSITION. AND TWO, PURSUANT TO 2.2 DASH 3 7 1 A THREE OF THE CODE OF VIRGINIA DISCUSSION OR CONSIDERATION OF THE ACQUISITION OF REAL PROPERTY FROM A PUBLIC PURPOSE OR OF THE DISPOSITION OF PUBLICLY HELD REAL PROPERTY, WHERE DISCUSSION IN AN OPEN MEETING WOULD ADVERSELY AFFECT THE BARGAINING POSITION OR NEGOTIATING STRATEGY OF THE PUBLIC BODY. MORE SPECIFICALLY, THE SALE OF A VACATED PORTION OF K KIBBLER STREET ABUTTING TWO 19 EAST SEVENTH STREET. SECOND ROLL CALL. COUNCILMAN WOOD. YES, MAYOR. YES. YES. YES. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.