[00:00:01]
[Planning and Zoning Work Session on November 6, 2024.]
MEETING OF THE WARREN COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION WORK SESSION.TOWN OF FRONT ROW, NOT COUNTY.
MS. HAR, WILL YOU TAKE THE ROLE? CHAIRMAN MARSH? I'M HERE.
THE FIRST ITEM ON OUR AGENDA IS 24 0 0 5 9 9.
A ZONING TEXT AMENDMENT OF CHAPTER 1 75.
THAT'S THE TOWN CODE TO INCLUDE PERFORMANCE STANDARDS FOR TOBACCO, SMOKE OR VAPE SHOPS IN THE C ONE AND C3 COMMERCIAL DISTRICTS WITHIN TOWN MINUTES.
DO WE HAVE A STAFF REPORT? UM, WE HAVE STAFF DISCUSSION HERE.
UM, SO THIS ORDINANCE IS COURTESY OF, UH, TOWN COUNCIL.
ESSENTIALLY, THEY, UM, ASK THAT THIS GET FORWARDED TO PLANNING COMMISSION FOR YOU TO TAKE UP AND HOLD THE PUBLIC HEARING ON.
SO COUNCIL'S WISHES WERE THAT THE, UM, THAT VAPE SHOPS WOULD BE ESSENTIALLY ENABLED AS A SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
UM, OTHER JURISDICTIONS IN VIRGINIA ARE STARTING TO DO THIS.
UM, AS WE STARTED RESEARCHING IT, THERE ARE TWO MECHANISMS. SO THERE'S THE SPECIAL USE PERMIT ROUTE.
UM, AND THAT'S WHERE YOU WOULD ESSENTIALLY, THEY WOULD APPLY FOR AN APPLICATION OR SPECIAL USE APPLICATION FOR A VAPE SHOP WITHIN ONE OF THESE TWO DISTRICTS.
UM, AND THEN IT WOULD COME BEFORE PLANNING COMMISSION TO, I GUESS, MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS AND RECOMMEND CONDITIONS THAT COUNSEL WOULD THEN HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO APPROVE OR DENY BASED ON WHETHER OR NOT THEY, THEY MET THOSE CONDITIONS.
UM, ESSENTIALLY IF THEY WERE APPROVED AND THEY WEREN'T IN COMPLIANCE, THEN THE SPECIAL USE PERMIT WOULD BE REVOKED.
THIS IS ESSENTIALLY BE SHUT DOWN.
THE OTHER MECHANISM IS BY, RIGHT.
SO THAT'S AN ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESS WHERE IT WOULD NOT GO BEFORE PLANNING COMMISSION AND TIME COUNSEL.
HONESTLY, THIS IS GONNA BE, UH, STAFF'S RECOMMENDATION IS TO GO THIS ROUTE SIMPLY BECAUSE WE WOULD PUT THE PERFORMANCE STANDARDS INTO THE CODE.
SO 1 75, 1 52 WOULD BECOME THE PERFORMANCE STANDARD CHAPTER.
AND THAT WOULD HAVE ESSENTIALLY THE CONDITIONS THAT COUNSEL COULD IMPOSE WOULD BE WRITTEN INTO THE CODE, AND THEN THEREFORE CODE ENFORCEMENT WOULD MONITOR FOR COMPLIANCE.
UM, BUT THAT TAKES IT, IT TAKES IT FROM A LEGISLATIVE PROCESS WHERE COUNSEL HAS THE FINAL SAY TO ADMINISTRATIVE.
SO THAT IS WHAT'S BEFORE THIS BOARD STAFF WROTE IT BOTH WAYS.
AND THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THIS BOARD IS TO DETERMINE WHICH WAYS, WHICH WAY YOU'D LIKE TO RECOMMEND IT AND, UM, HOLD THE PUBLIC HEARING.
AND THEN THE, THE OTHER THING, THE DEFINITIONS THAT ARE INCLUDED HERE, CANE CROP STATE CODE.
SO WHAT WE DID IS WE DEFINED TOBACCO SMOKE OR VAPE SHOP.
AND THEN WITHIN THAT, THESE DEFINITIONS THAT ARE LISTED BELOW ARE DIRECTLY FROM STATE CODE VERBATIM.
QUESTIONS ARE THE, UH, THE RESTRICTIONS THAT ARE LISTED IN THE ORDINANCE.
I'M ASSUMING THOSE ARE UP FOR A DISCUSSION AT THIS POINT AS WELL.
LIKE EVERYTHING IS A DRAFT AB EVERYTHING FOR DISCUSSION HERE.
UM, ARE, ARE YOU LOOKING TO HAVE THIS BE KIND OF STEP BY STEP IN TERMS OF LOOKING AT THE TWO MECHANISMS FIRST AND THEN GOING INTO THE RESTRICTIONS? OR IS IT KIND OF OPEN, OPEN HOWEVER YOU'D LIKE TO? OKAY.
UM, THE FIRST RESTRICTION THAT WAS PUT ON THERE OF A THOUSAND FEET, UM, WHERE, WHAT WAS THE ORIGIN FOR, FOR THAT NUMBER SPECIFICALLY? SO TYPICALLY, UM, WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THESE PERFORMANCE STANDARDS, YOU, YOU WANNA MITIGATE THE SECONDARY EFFECTS.
A THOUSAND FEET IS WHAT WE'RE TYPICALLY SEEING IN OTHER CODES.
AND THAT'S TO JUST KEEP IT AWAY FROM BEING VISIBLY VISIBLE TO MINORS OF CHILDREN.
SO IT'S THE KEEPING AWAY FROM THE PARKS, THE LIBRARY, DAYCARE SCHOOLS THAT, OKAY.
BUT IT SAYS PUBLIC BUILDING, PUBLIC OR PRIVATE SCHOOL OR ANY CHILD OR DAYCARE CENTER, RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS.
YOU COULD DO MEDICAL FACILITIES.
YOU COULD ADD, YOU COULD ADD TO IT.
[00:05:03]
LEGAL OFFICES OR CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES, LEGAL OFFICES OR, AND OTHER VAPE SHOPS.YOU COULD RESTRICT DISTANCE BETWEEN VAPE SHOPS.
THAT WAS NOT INCLUDED, BUT OTHER JURISDICTIONS HAVE DONE THAT.
YOU HAVE QUESTIONS? YEAH, I THOUGHT JUMP AROUND A LITTLE BIT.
THE ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW VERSUS THE SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
I AGREE ON THE ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW, JUST BASED ON WHAT, LOOKING AROUND THE PLACES AND, AND, UM, HAVING TO GO THROUGH A FULL FORMAL PROCESS EACH TIME SOMEONE WANTS TO GO, THEY SHOP AND THEN YOU'D BE ARGUING OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND WITH ALL THE DIFFERENT PEOPLE, AND, AND I SUPPOSE THIS, WE JUST DO, ADMINISTRATIVE WOULD BE VIEWED, IT'S, IT'S A SIMPLE ENFORCEMENT ACTION.
ALL THE SOURCES WHICH ALL WEIGH OUT HAVE TO FOLLOW THE SAME, WE HAVE TO FOLLOW THE SAME CODE, SAME CODE.
WHEREAS IF IT'S BY SPECIAL USE PERMIT, COUNSEL COULD IMPOSE RESTRICTIONS ON ONE VAPE SHOP, BUT NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME RESTRICTIONS ON THE OTHER.
I THINK THAT'S ALMOST FAIR THOUGH, IN A WAY, UM, BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME SHOPS IN TOWN THAT ARE, THAT ARE SINCERELY SMALL BUSINESSES THAT ARE WELL RUN AND THEY'RE MORE TOBACCONISTS THAN VAPE OR, UM, THEY IT IS, IT IS DIFFERENT THAN YOUR TOBACCO HUT, FOR EXAMPLE.
AND I WOULDN'T, I COULD ABSOLUTELY SEE THERE BEING JUST CAUSE FOR COUNSEL TO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, THE CHAIN THAT IS TRYING TO JUST PUT EVERYTHING WHEREVER IT CAN, WOULD BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY THAN THE ACTUAL SMALL BUSINESS.
AND IF IT'S ADMINISTRATIVE, THEN WE CAN'T DO THAT.
WHATEVER WE TIGHTEN IS GONNA BE TIGHTENED FOR THOSE INDIVIDUAL FOLKS AS WELL.
AND THIS DOESN'T APPLY TO ANY EXISTING VAPE SHOPS OR, OR THEY WOULD BE GRANDFATHERED TO WHATEVER IT IS TODAY.
THIS ISN'T GONNA GO AND CLOSE ANY VAPE SHOP OR TOBACCO SHOP WHEN THIS IS ENFORCED, AS I UNDERSTAND IT.
I NOT A HUGE FAVOR OF, OF, UH, PICKING WINNERS AND LOSERS.
UM, I THINK THE, THE MARKET IS GONNA TAKE CARE OF THIS PROBLEM.
SOME OF 'EM HAVE CLOSED ALREADY.
AND, UH, YOU, THAT, THAT'S MY, MY, YOU, YOU KNOW ME LAUREN.
AND, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE IN HERE KNOW MY POSITION ON A LOT OF THINGS AND, AND I JUST, UH, UH, HAVE TO, I THINK, UM, HOW DO I PUT THIS NICELY? UM, I, I THINK IF COUNSEL WANTS TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, I, I, I THINK, AND IT'S THEIR, THEIR HEARTBURN ABOUT IT.
I, I THINK THEY OUGHT TO BE THE ONES TO DO IT.
YOU KNOW, AND THAT WOULD BE THE BY RIGHT, RIGHT.
IS IT WOULD JUST COME THROUGH.
OUR DEPARTMENT STAFF WOULD HANDLE IT.
WHEREAS THE SPECIAL USE PERMIT WOULD BE COUNSEL MAKING THAT DECISION, BEARING RESPONSIBILITY ULTIMATELY FOR THEIR DECISION.
IT'S A CASE BY CASE BASIS AT THAT POINT.
AT, AT SOME POINT, WHO'S SOMEBODY ON COUNCIL, THEY'RE GONNA SAY, WELL, I THINK WE HAVE TOO MANY GAS STATIONS.
YOU KNOW, WHERE'S IT END? IT CERTAINLY IS THE PERSON, WELL, THE VAPE SHOPS HAVE BEEN A COMMUNITY COMPLAINT FOR A LONG TIME IN, IN A DIFFERENT WAY.
I, AND I THINK WE'RE SEEING WITH ALMOST ANY OTHER TYPE OF BUSINESS, I DON'T, MAYBE I'M JUST, YOU KNOW, NAIVE PERHAPS, BUT I DON'T SEE, SEE IT AS BEING A SLIPPERY SLOPE TO, YOU KNOW, NOW IT'S GONNA BE ALL THESE OTHER INDUSTRIES.
I I, IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, I DON'T LIKE THEM EITHER.
BUT I, I DON'T THINK IT'S THIS LANDING COMMISSION'S JOB TO PICK LITERACY LOSERS, NOR IS IT TOWN COUNCILS.
BECAUSE THE, THE, THE SLOPE GOES, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE GONNA SINGLE OUT A CERTAIN BUSINESS JUST BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T LIKE, PARTICULARLY WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
AND, AND LIKE I SAID, I I'M ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE TOO.
DON'T, DON'T GET ME WRONG, JUST TO BE ARGUMENTATIVE HERE.
BUT I, I DON'T THINK IT'S OUR JOB TO PICK WINNERS AND LOSERS.
I THINK IT'S HOW WOULD WE BE PICKING WINNERS AND LOSERS? YEAH.
WELL, IF YOU'RE GOING TO TELL A BUSINESS THAT THEY CAN'T COME TO A CERTAIN PART OF THE DAM OR THAT WHAT YOU'RE DOING, BUT THE PERFORMANCE STANDARDS WOULD TECHNICALLY BE YOUR LEAST AMOUNT OF REGULATION HERE, PUTTING IT IN THE ZONING ORDINANCE, NOT DOING IT BY SPECIAL USE.
WELL, I THINK THE PREMISE IS WRONG BY SAYING, PICKING WINNERS AND LOSERS OR I DON'T LIKE IT, OR WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE FOR, FOR ME, LOOKING AT IT, IT'S LIKE ANY OTHER HEALTH AND SAFETY ISSUE, BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE DOING IS REGULATING TO KEEP IT AWAY FROM CHILDREN.
AND THAT'S WHY IT'S PICKING SCHOOLS AND, UM, YOUTH CENTERS AND PROXIMITY.
THERE'S ALREADY LAWS ON THE BOOKS ABOUT THAT.
WELL, THERE'S, THERE'S SOME THAT GO ALONG, BUT WE'RE TRYING, WELL, NOT AS RESTRICTIVE AS
[00:10:01]
JUST BASED ON WHERE THE VAPE SHOPS ARE NOW AND TOBACCO SHOPS ARE NOW, I I'M MY PREMISE, MY, MY PREMISE IS THIS, IF WE'RE GONNA DO THIS, IT'S HEALTH AND SAFETY REASONS, NOT FOR THE SAKE OF I DON'T LIKE IT.WELL, THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
WELL, SO ALL, ALL THOSE LAWS ARE ALREADY ON THE BOOKS.
SO WHAT THEY, THEY, YEAH, THEY CAN'T BE, WE WOULDN'T BE HERE.
I MEAN, YOU CAN'T BUY VAPES OR, OR CIGARETTES UNLESS YOU'RE 20 MINUTES.
THERE, THERE ARE NO, THERE'S FEDERAL LAWS THAT GO ALONG WITH THAT.
BUT THESE ARE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ZONING ORDINANCES.
NOT, NOT THE FEDERAL OR STATE LAWS HAVING TO DO WITH THE CIGARETTES.
WELL, RIGHT NOW, THE CURRENT SITUATION IS THAT THEY FALL UNDER RETAIL USE.
SO IN THE CO DISTRICT, RETAIL IS BY, RIGHT.
SO THEY COME IN AND THEY SAY, WE WANNA OPEN UP THIS RETAIL STORE.
THAT'S WHAT THEIR PERMISSIONS ARE UNDER WHAT THE PERFORMANCE CENTERS THAT WE PUT IN PLACE.
IT WOULD LIMIT DISTANCE TO, YOU KNOW, CERTAIN FACILITIES LIMITING THEIR HOURS OF OPERATION.
UM, AND THEN LIMITING THE SQUARE FOOTAGE OF PRODUCTS.
SO NO MORE THAN 15 TO 25% OF THE FLOOR AREA COULD BE DEDICATED TO THE SALE OF TOBACCO OR PAID PRODUCTS.
AND WHAT THAT DOES IS THAT ALLOWS, YOU KNOW, THE GAS STATIONS LIKE SHEETS TO CONTINUE TO SELL TOBACCO PRODUCTS OR THE, YOU KNOW, GROCERY OR WHOEVER.
BUT, BUT ONCE YOU ARE OVER THAT THRESHOLD, BUT THEN, BUT THEN, UH, A COMPANY THAT SPECIALIZES IN, IN THAT SORT OF THING, IT IT LIMITS THEIR ABILITY TO TO DO BUSINESS.
WELL, AT THAT POINT THEY ARE A VAPE OR A TOBACCO STORE, AND THEY HAVE TO FOLLOW THESE REGULATIONS.
ONCE THEY HIT THAT SQUARE FOOTAGE THRESHOLD, 25%, UM, THEN THAT'S WHEN THESE REGULATIONS WOULD KICK IN.
SO EITHER STAFF WOULD ENFORCE IT OR THAT SPECIAL USE PERMIT WOULD DICTATE IT, UM, FROM COUNSEL.
WELL THAT, THAT RAISE A QUESTION IN MY MIND.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NOW, NOW YOU'RE SAY THE CURRENT ONES, WHICH IS WHAT, 16 THESE DAYS? UH, IN TOWN? WELL, TECHNICALLY THERE'S REALLY ONLY LIKE ONE VAPE STORE, ONE STORE THAT SELLS JUST EXCLUSIVELY LIKE VAPE PRODUCTS.
THAT'S THE ONE OVER THERE BY ANTHONY'S.
THE REST OF 'EM ARE A MIXTURE OF TOBACCO AND NICOTINE AND ON ALL SORTS OF DIFFERENT KINDS.
I MEAN, I KNOW THOSE PEOPLE THERE, THEY'RE VERY GOOD.
THEY STARTED THAT BUSINESS FROM, I MEAN, FROM THE GROUND UP.
AND THEY WOULD NOT BE IMPACTED IN THIS.
AND SO THEY WOULD NOT BE SUBJECT TO ANY CODE ENFORCEMENT THAT MIGHT COME IN THE EXISTING MENT.
BUT FOR ANY IN THE FUTURE, IF WE WENT WITH THE, UH, WITH THE BUY RIGHT PLAN, THE CODE ENFORCEMENT COULD GET TO BE, I MEAN, WHAT MIGHT BE STAFF.
SO AT THAT POINT, IF WE GET A CALL THAT, YOU KNOW, UM, A RETAIL STORE THAT STATED THEY READY KEEP THEIR INVENTORY LIST, 25% OF THEIR GROSS FLOOR AREA ALL OF A SUDDEN HAS, YOU KNOW, AN ENTIRE WALL OR ANOTHER WALL DEDICATED TO IT, WE WOULD BE ABLE TO CITE THEM IN VIOLATION OF THE ZONING ORDINANCE.
IF A LOT OF STORES STARTED DOING THAT, THIS COULD HAVE AN IMPACT ON STAFF.
WOULD WE GO OUT AND DO THOSE INSPECTIONS? BUT YOU'VE ONLY GOT ONE CODE ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WHO DOES EVERYTHING FROM BARKING DOGS TO VAPE STORES.
WE HAVE ONE CODE ENFORCEMENT PROPERTY.
I'M JUST WONDERING IF THE, IF THERE'S A DOWN THE ROAD, UH, UM, UN UNSEEN UNFORESEEN CONSEQUENCES IN TERMS OF STAFF TIME, I THINK FOR THE NUMBER OF BIG STORES OR TOBACCO STORES WE HAVE, HE'S PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF HANDLING ANY ENFORCEMENT ISSUES ON IT, ON THAT.
AND THESE WOULDN'T, THEY WOULDN'T BE SUBJECT TO HIM ANYHOW.
IF, IF WE HAD A, AS A PERFORMANCE STANDARD, AND IT'S CODIFIED IN THE ZONING ORDINANCE AND IT'S NOT BY SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
IT'S UNDER HIS PURVIEW TO ENFORCE IT.
SO EVEN THOUGH THEY ALREADY EXIST, THEY'RE ALREADY IN BUSINESS, IF THIS WERE TO GO INTO CODE AS A NO, WE WOULD, THEY WOULD NOT BE SUBJECT TO THE NEW STANDARDS.
THEY WOULD STILL BE HELD TO THE OLD STANDARDS.
SO THEN THEY WOULDN'T BE SUBJECT TO CODE ENFORCEMENT.
BUT OTHER, I MEAN, BUT STILL, IF THEY'RE IN VIOLATION OF THE SIGN ORDINANCE, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TYPICALLY SEEING IS, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE TOO MANY SIGNS.
YEAH, THAT WAS, OR THE LIGHTS, THOSE THINGS, THEY'RE STILL, THOSE THINGS THAT ARE STILL, THEY'RE STILL, THEY STILL HAVE TO FOLLOW THOSE RULES.
THE, THE POINT ABOUT THE CO CODE ENFORCE, EXCUSE ME, THE, UM, THE ENFORCEMENT THAT AS FROM THE ZONING REGULATION VERSUS WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT WHERE THEY BREAK
[00:15:01]
UP SELLING TO A MINOR, REMEMBER THE CODE, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO ENFORCE SELLING TO A MINOR PER SE.THEY COULD REPORT IT POSSIBLY.
I'VE SENT LAUREN PICTURES OF THE LIGHTS FLASHING AT FIVE 30 IN THE MORNING.
AND YEAH, IF, WHEN THE TIME CHANGES LIKE THIS, I EXPECT IT.
I'M LIKE, OH, THERE'S THEIR, YOU KNOW, WHITE LIGHTS ALL OVER THE PLACE,
SO, UM, AND ONE, ONE POINT OF CLARITY, UH, WE WERE SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, CERTAIN THINGS WOULD NOT, THEY WOULD NOT BE HELD TO THESE STANDARDS.
UH, AND I, THAT I MISSED THAT THE, THAT WHEN IT COMES TO HAVING A BUNCH OF SIGNS OR OBSCURED WINDOWS, THAT THAT'S ALREADY SOMETHING ON THE BOOKS, THE SIGNAGE, THEY ARE LIMITED TO A CERTAIN NUMBER OF SIGNS DEPENDING ON THEIR ZONE ALREADY.
SO THERE ARE ALREADY LIMITATIONS ON THE SIGNS.
THERE'S ALREADY LIMITATIONS ON LIGHT.
SO THEN WITH THE SHOPS THAT HAVE BEEN IN VIOLATION OF THAT FOR EXTENDED PERIODS OF TIME, IS THAT SOMETHING WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN CITED AND THEN JUST CONTINUES TO, THERE ARE CITATIONS ON THE BIG SHOPS IN TOWN.
NOT EVERY SINGLE ONE, BUT THEY HAVE BEEN CITED IN THAT CASE.
I COULD SEE THAT AS ACTUALLY BEING AN ARGUMENT FOR THE, THE USE PERMIT.
BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE THESE, THESE BUSINESSES THAT ARE ALREADY IN VIOLATION OF CURRENT LAW AND CONTINUING TO BE IN VIOLATION REGARDLESS OF THE CITATIONS, THEN I WOULD THINK THAT BEING ABLE TO HAVE THE TEETH OF SAYING, WELL, YOUR PERMIT'S GONNA BE REVOKED UNLESS YOU FIX THIS, IS A LOT MORE POWERFUL AND MORE LIKELY TO GET THEM TO BE IN LINE WITH, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S ALREADY ON THE BOOKS THAN POSSIBLY WELL, PEOPLE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS TOO IS.
WE CAN CITE THEM, THEY CAN TAKE THE SIGNS DOWN AND THEY'RE IN COMPLIANCE, AND THEN IF IN A MONTH LATER THEY PUT SIGNS BACK UP OR PUT A DIFFERENT SIGN UP, THAT STARTS THE PROCESS OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
SO IT'S NOT THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE JUST SITTING ON IT AND THEY'RE NOT, OH NO, I, I DIDN'T MEAN TO APPLY THAT AT ALL.
AND I THINK THE EXISTING FINE NOW IS A THOUSAND DOLLARS A POP FOR EACH OF THESE VIOLATIONS.
THAT'S THE GENERAL, IT'LL BE THE ZONING ORDINANCE, AND THEN IT COULD BE REPEATED UP TO A THOUSAND.
BUT THEN FOR EACH, EACH NEW DAY IS A NEW VIOLATION IF THEY DON'T COME IN COMPLIANCE.
IS THAT A TRUE STATEMENT? YEAH.
SO, SO POTENTIALLY THAT RUN UP INTO THREE BUCKS IN HURRY IF YOU CHOOSE TO ENFORCE IT FROM THAT.
WE MAY HAVE A NEW REVENUE STREAM THEN SEE THERE'S A, THERE'S A POSITIVE NO, PROBABLY NOT.
HAVE YOU SEEN ISSUES WITH PLACES NOT COMPLIANT? UH, THEY TEND TO COME INTO COMPLIANCE, BUT THEN THEY'LL JUST, YEAH.
AND IT'S MORE THAT THEY FALL BACK INTO IT.
LIKE THEY'LL PUT A NEW POSTER UP OR, YOU KNOW, YOU GET INTO WHETHER OR NOT THESE LIGHTS ARE HOLIDAY LIGHTS CERTAIN TIMES A YEAR.
AND THAT GETS A LITTLE TRICKY TO ENFORCE AS WELL.
DOUG, IS THERE A, IS THERE A LIMIT ON THE AMOUNT OF FINE THAT, THAT WE CAN DO? UH, IT'S, IT'S IN THE ZONING ORDINANCE.
SO IF WE, UH, BUT THERE'S NOTHING PARTICULAR, UM, THEY IMPOSE GREATER FINE, I'D HAVE TO GO TO LOOK AT STATE LAW 'CAUSE THAT, THAT WOULD BE THE WAY TO GO.
IF, IF, IF THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ARGUING HERE IS, WELL THE WAY IT'S CURRENTLY WRITTEN IS A VIOLATION APPLIES TO THE ENTIRE ZONING ORDINANCE.
UM, SO THE FINES FOR TRASH IS GONNA BE THE SAME FINE OR, OR SUM.
THAT, THAT WAS ONE OF MY COMMENTS ON HERE IS A POSSIBILITY ABOUT INCREASING THE FINE, BUT PUT AS A PART OF THIS ORDINANCE AS OPPOSED TO, UM, PUTTING IN GENERAL SINCE IT, BUT I'M LOOKING AT AGAIN, THE HEALTH AND SAFETY, THE HEALTH ISSUE.
SO THEY'RE NOT VIOLATING BECAUSE THEY LEFT TRASH OUT FRONT.
THEY'RE VIOLATING, YOU KNOW, SO I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S POSSIBLE TO PARSE IT OUT.
SO THIS WOULD HAVE A DIFFERENT FINE THAN EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE ZONING ORDINANCE.
BUT THAT, THAT WAS ONE OF THE COMMENTS I HAD.
LORI, COULD YOU WALK US THROUGH THE WORDS? 'CAUSE NOT EVERYBODY HAS IT IN FRONT OF YOU ON HER.
I PULL IT UP A HERE SO YOU CAN ALL SEE IT.
[00:20:01]
THE ORDINANCE, THIS IS THE ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW.AND THE ONLY DIFFERENCE REALLY BETWEEN THE TWO, UM, IS THE LOCATION OF THE USE.
SO IN THIS ONE, THE USE WOULD BE LISTED IN 1 75, 39 A, AND THAT WOULD BE THE BUYRIGHT USES.
WHEREAS IF YOU GO THE SUP ROUTE, IT WOULD BE IN 1 75, 1 39 B, AND THEN 1 75 53 TO A OR B, DEPENDING ON WHICH ROUTE WE WENT.
UM, BUT THE PERFORMANCE STANDARDS WOULD STATE THAT TOBACCO SMOKE OR VAPE SHOPS WOULD NOT OR SHALL NOT BE LOCATED WITHIN A THOUSAND FEET OF ANY PROPERTY.
PROPERTY CONTAINING A RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION, LIBRARIES, PARKS, COMMUNITY CENTERS, PUBLIC OR PRIVATE SCHOOLS, OR ANY CHILD OR DAYCARE CENTER.
AND THEN WE HAVE CLARIFICATION ON HOW THAT MEASUREMENT WOULD BE MADE.
IT WOULD BE, UM, SHALL BE A STRAIGHT LINE WITHOUT REGARD TO STRUCTURES OR OBJECTS FOR 1000 FEET FROM THE BOUNDARIES OF THE PROPERTY ON WHICH THAT THE AFOREMENTIONED ENTITIES WOULD OPERATE.
UM, LIMITING THE HOURS OF OPERATION TO BETWEEN 8:00 AM AND 8:00 PM MONDAY THROUGH SUNDAY.
NOW, DOES THAT MEAN THAT THE STORE COULD ONLY BE OPEN FROM 8:00 AM TO 8:00 PM OR THE HOURS THEY WOULD NEED TO OPERATE WITHIN THOSE HOURS? OKAY, SO IT IS NOT, THEY COULDN'T SAY WE'RE OPEN UNTIL MIDNIGHT, BUT OH, WE ARE ONLY SELLING THIS PRODUCT UNTIL 8:00 PM WE WOULD HAVE TO CLARIFY THAT BECAUSE IT, WELL, NO, IT WOULD, IT WOULD BE ONLY WITHIN, WITHIN.
IF THEY HIT THE DEFINITION, THEY HIT THE DEFINITION THERE UNDER THIS 8:00 AM TO 8:00 PM THEY CAN OPERATE WITHIN THOSE HOURS.
SO WHOLE, SOMETHING LIKE A GAS STATION THAT THESE PRODUCTS ARE NOT THEIR PRIMARY, UM, RIGHT.
SO THIS, THE STORE WOULD HAVE TO CLOSE AT 8:00 PM YES.
COULD WE PUT IT IN THERE THAT THEY, THEY'RE OFF THEIR LIGHTS AT EIGHT
TYPICALLY, COMMERCIAL STRUCTURES ARE COMMERCIAL ENTITIES KEEP SOME LIGHTS ON JUST FOR SECURITY PURPOSES.
DURING ALL HOURS OF OPERATION, ALL GLASS PORTIONS OF WINDOWS AND DOORS SHALL BE MAINTAINED AS TRANSPARENT AND SHALL NOT BE HEAVILY TINTED ROSE FOR, UM, AND THEN NO SMOKING OR VAPING SHALL BE PERMITTED ON THE PREMISES AT ANY TIME UNLESS THE ESTABLISHMENT COMPLIES WITH THE VIRGINIA, UH, INDOOR CLEAN AIR ACT.
WE CITE THE RELEVANT CODE, THEN WE HAVE THE SIGN REGULATIONS.
WE TIGHTENED IT UP BASED ON MORE SO THAN WHAT OUR CURRENT REGULATIONS ARE.
SO NO MORE THAN FOUR SIGNS PER BUSINESS.
WALL SIDES SHALL NOT EXCEED 50 SQUARE FEET IN SIDES UNLESS A SPECIAL USE PERMIT IS OBTAINED.
SO THAT WOULD BE A SEPARATE PERMIT FOR THE SIGN EXTERIOR SIDE? YES.
AND THAT WOULD BE A SEPARATE SUP FROM THE SEP TO ESTABLISH THE USE.
AND THEN THE VAPE SHOPS SHALL POST CLEAR SIGNAGE TAKEN THAT MINORS MAY NOT ENTER THE PREMISES UNLESS ACCOMPANIED BY A PARENT OR LEGAL GUARDIAN.
AT LEAST ONE SUCH SIGN SHALL BE PLACED IN A CONSPICUOUS LOCATION NEAR EACH PUBLIC ENTRANCE TO THE VAPE SHOP.
AND IT SHALL BE UNLAWFUL FOR A VAPE SHOPPER BUSINESS OFFERING VAPE RELATED PRODUCTS AND TOBACCO PARAPHERNALIAS TO FAIL TO DISPLAY AND MAINTAIN OR FAIL TO CAUSE TO BE DISPLAYED OR MAINTAIN SUCH SIGNAGE.
FOR THE VIRGINIA CLEAN AIR STANDARDS, WHAT, WHAT DO THEY ACTUALLY REQUIRE? VIRGINIA CLEAN AREA.
I WILL HAVE TO PULL THAT ENTIRE SECTION OF STATE CODE TO TELL YOU THAT.
DOES IT BASICALLY FORBID INDOOR SMOKING? BASICALLY YES.
UNLESS THERE'S A SEPARATE VENTILATION SYSTEM.
AND THEN, UM, NO VAPE SHOP SHALL DISPLAY TOBACCO PARAPHERNALIA IN A MANNER THAT IS IN PLAIN VIEW FROM THE STREET OR SIDEWALK.
UH, WHEN IT COMES TO THE, UH, THE CLEAR SIGNAGE TO SAY THAT MINORS CAN'T, THAT MINORS CAN'T GO IN UNLESS THEY HAVE A PARENT OR GUARDING WITH THEM.
UM, I'M SURE, WELL, I'VE BEEN IN, I I'VE WORKED AT BUSINESSES, I'M SURE WE'RE OBVIOUSLY BUSINESSES WHERE THEY HAVE, YOU KNOW, A REQUIRED SIGN THAT HAS TO CONSPICUOUS AND IT'S, YOU KNOW, OFF TO THE SIDE AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THEY, THEY MAKE IT SO THAT IT'S, THEY'RE, THEY'RE BARELY MEETING THE MINIMUM.
UM, IS THERE A WAY THAT THIS COULD BE WRITTEN SUCH THAT IT'S, YOU KNOW, THERE'S WHERE THE LANGUAGE LITTLE MORE CLEAR ON WHAT IT MEANS TO BE, UM, YOU KNOW, TO BE, IT HAD TO BE CLEAR SIGNAGE OR TO BE IN A, UH, OBVIOUS LOCATION.
UH, JUST SO THAT PEOPLE, THEY DON'T GO AND TRY AND SKIRT IT BY JUST, YOU KNOW, STICKING IT IN THE CORNER.
I WOULD THINK THAT WOULD BE UP TO THE DISCRETION OF THE PERSON DOING
[00:25:01]
THE INSPECTION, WHETHER THEY CONSIDERED IT CONSPICUOUS OR NOT.UM, SO THAT WOULD BE LIKE, IF STAFF IS GOING OUT THERE TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE IN COMPLIANCE, IT'S, YOU KNOW, CAN WE NOTICE IT, UM, GEORGE, IS THERE A BETTER LEGAL
I DIDN'T KNOW IF THERE'S A LEGAL THERE.
THE LAW THAT WARRANT THAT KNOW SOMEBODY UNDER THE AGE OF 21 CANNOT WALK IN THERE UNLESS THEY'RE ACCOMP BY PARENT.
BUT IT NEVER HEARD THIS CALLS FOR SIGN.
THIS JUST CALLS THIS CALLS FOR A SIGN STATING IT.
WAS IT, THEY TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHERE THEY CAN'T, OR EXCUSE ME, WHICH FACILITIES A THOUSAND FEET OF APPLIES TO.
AND WE HAD THE CHURCHES AND SO ON, ON THERE WITH YOUTH CENTERS WAS NOT ON THERE.
WE CAN ADD YOUTH CENTERS, YOUTH CENTERS.
THE OTHER ONE I KICKED AROUND WAS MEDICAL FACILITIES.
THERE'S A POSSIBILITY, BUT I, I WAS WONDERING WHAT THE GROUP WOULD THINK ABOUT THAT.
WELL, YEAH, THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE BECAUSE THE URGENT CARE AND, UH, YOU KNOW, LIKE A MASSAGE THERAPIST OR SOMETHING WHO MIGHT SET UP SHOP OR HAVE A SHOP, HAVE A OFFICE, WHATEVER.
SO IT JUST, IT SEEMS LIKE A MEDICAL 'CAUSE THEY DONE SO SAY WITH THE CHURCHES THAT OF COURSE THEY, THEY TYPICALLY, THEY'LL HAVE DAYCARE CENTERS AND THEY HAVE, AGAIN, FOR THE HEALTH AND SAFETY, IT'S NOT THE RELIGIOUS ASPECT OF IT.
SO WHAT WE CAN DO IS WE CAN USE WHATEVER PHRASE WE CURRENTLY HAVE DEFINED IN 1 75 3 OF THE ZONE ORDINANCE.
SO I BELIEVE WE HAVE LIKE A MEDICAL OFFICE USE ALREADY DEFINED.
SO WHAT WE CAN DO IS MATCH IT UP TO THAT, THAT WE'RE NOT CREATING OR REFERENCING SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T CURRENTLY EXIST IN THE ORDINANCE.
DOES THE MEDICAL ORDINANCE, MEDICAL FACILITY DEFINITION INCLUDE ALTERNATIVE CARE? THINGS LIKE MASSAGE.
PROS I THINK ARE REGULATED IN A WHOLE DIFFERENT SECTION.
WELL, MEDICAL MASSAGE IS FOR MASSAGE PROGRAM.
WELL, THAT WOULD FALL THAT MEDICAL OFFICE OF THE PHYSICAL THERAPY USE.
WOULDN'T THAT BE ONLY IF THEY HAVE A CERTAIN STATE LICENSE TO DO THE MASSAGE THOUGH? I'D HAVE TO LOOK UP ON THE DEFINITION.
BUT WE DO HAVE A CODE FOR PROFESSIONAL OFFICES.
THOSE THAT HAVE TO REQUIRE ADDITIONAL TRAINING.
YEAH, WE CAN SET THAT WOULD BE IMPORTANT.
BECAUSE IF IT'S, IF IT'S ONLY, IF IT, IF WE PUT IT IN YOUR SUGGESTION, WHICH I LIKE THE SUGGESTION, ADDING A MEDICAL FACILITY, BUT IT DOESN'T PROTECT OR KEEP DISTANCE FROM SOMETHING THAT IS SORT OF ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE, JUST BY DEFINITION, BECAUSE IT'S NOT REGULATED BY THE STATE.
LIKE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MASSAGE, MASSAGE.
I MEAN, THERE'S LEGITIMATE MASSAGE, LEGITIMATE MASSAGE.
HOW OFTEN DO MINOR, ARE MINORS ATTENDING THAT SORT OF THING? IS THAT A CONCERN? SPORTS INJURIES.
SPORTS INJURIES, SOMETHING HAVE PHYSICAL THERAPIST MEAN SOMETIMES THERE MIGHT BE, YOU KNOW, HERBAL MEDICINE IN THE SAME, YOU KNOW, AN HERBAL LIST, LIKE HAVE TENDENCY WITH A MASSAGE.
I GUESS I KIND OF HAVE IN MY MIND IN TWO DIFFERENT CATEGORIES.
BUT MAYBE THEY ARE, THEY DO BLEND TOGETHER.
I THINK, I THINK THERE'S, THERE'S MORE ALTERNA PLENTY.
YEAH, THERE'S PLENTY OF PHYSICAL THERAPY PLACES IN TOWN, THAT'S FOR SURE.
UH, MAYBE A PROFESSIONAL OFFICER.
PROBABLY PROFESSIONAL OFFICES STRUCTURE DESIGN PIECE BY PERSON OR PERSONS OFFERING SERVICE, WHICH REQUIRES SPECIALIZED KNOWLEDGE GAINED BY INTENSIVE ACADEMIC PREPARATION SUCH AS MEDICINE, LAW, ENGINEERING.
SO THAT'S YOUR LEGITIMATE MASSAGE PHYSICAL THERAPY.
I GUESS IT DOESN'T, IT DOESN'T SAY THEY, INSTEAD OF SAYING MEDICAL OFFICE, WE WOULD JUST STAY PROFESSIONAL OFFICES IN THAT ORDINANCE.
IF THIS BODY WANTS THAT RECOMMENDATION, YOU ALSO, BY THAT DEFINITION, YOU'RE ALSO DOING AS THAT DEFINITION IS WRITTEN, PROFESSIONAL OFFICE ALSO INCLUDED LAW OFFICERS, ENGINEERING AND DENTISTRY.
HAVE AN UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE.
[00:30:01]
WELL THEN IT GOES BACK.WHAT ELSE? WHAT ELSE BACK THAT, IF WE, IF WE GO AHEAD AND JUST PUT THE WORDS IN IT FOR, UM, UH, MEDICAL, UM, MEDICAL FACILITIES AND THEN REFERENCES THAT WOULD JUST SAY MEDICAL FACILITY AND AS A PROFESSIONAL OFFICE WITHOUT CALLING OUT ALL THOSE OTHER THINGS.
'CAUSE YOU DON'T, YOU WOULDN'T, DON'T HAVE TO CALL OUT EACH THING.
NO, WE JUST SAY PROFESSIONAL OFFICE.
JUST, JUST TRYING TO DELINEATE, YOU KNOW, SOME WAY OF DOING IT.
THE, THE TIE HAS TO BE HEALTH, SAFETY, WELFARE.
THERE HAS TO BE A RATIONAL, THAT'S A HEALTH SAFETY LAW.
SO WHAT ABOUT SPORTS? HAVE WE GOT IT WITHIN CERTAIN DISTANCE OF SPORTS FACILITIES OR IS THAT, THAT WOULD FALL UNDER THE PARKS AND ANYTHING ASSOCIATED WITH KIDS.
AND THE CURRENT, THE LOCATIONS OF THE FACILITIES NOW THAT WE HAVE IN TOWN AREN'T, I DON'T THINK THEY'RE IN THE C3.
C3 IS UP BY UM, UM, LIKE UP TOWARDS 66TH.
AND THEN C ONE DISTRICT HISPANIC CEILING PARK IS OVER THERE.
I SEE ONE, BUT THE MAJORITY OF THAT.
UM, BUT YOU'VE GOT THE YOUTH CENTER OVER THERE BY THE PARK, SO THAT WOULD RIGHT.
MAKE THAT AREA UNUSABLE ESSENTIALLY.
SO REALLY YOU'RE ONLY LOOKING AT THE RED AREAS HERE.
SO, UM, THESE ARE YOUR C3 OR THE PINK.
AND THE ONLY AREA WE REALLY HAVE IS UP THERE BY 66.
AND THEN YOUR RED AREAS, WHICH ARE YOUR C ONE.
AND SO THAT FOLLOWS SHENANDOAH DOWN TO NORTH ROYAL, SOUTH ROYAL COMMERCE.
BUT IT STOPS AT FOURTH STREET.
AND THAT DOESN'T START BACK UP AGAIN UNTIL YOU GET REALLY TO SOUTH STREET.
AND THEN THE BYPASS EVERY HERE.
AND THE NEW APARTMENTS THAT WE'RE CONSIDERING, THE NEW APARTMENTS, UM, WHERE'S ROYAL KING? SO NEW APARTMENTS ARE BACK HERE.
BUT THERE'S AN URGENT CARE FACILITY WITHIN THE SHOPPING CENTER.
SO THERE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO BE ANY NEW VAPE SHOPS IN THIS SHOPPING CENTER.
THAT'S, UM, AND I BELIEVE THERE'S ALSO A CHURCH LOCATED IN HERE.
UM, YOU'VE GOT THE LIBRARY BACK HERE.
LIBRARIES ARE WHAT LIBRARY MENTIONED.
SO THAT'S NOT GONNA BE VIABLE.
UM, YEAH, IT'S GONNA, UM, WHAT ABOUT, UH, NANDO SHORES ROAD? IS THERE ANY NANDO SHORES? THAT'S ALL RESIDENTIAL BACK THERE? ALL RESIDENTIAL BUSINESS.
INDUSTRIAL PARK BACK THERE WE'RE NOT, WE DIDN'T ADD IT TO THE INDUSTRIAL, JUST THE C ONE AND C3.
SO IS THAT, OF COURSE THAT'LL BE NEAR A SCHOOL, AT LEAST ON CONGRESS DRIVE? WELL, WE'RE JUST, IT'S NOT EVEN UP FOR DISCUSSION IN THE INDUSTRIAL, SO.
IF IT'S NOT C ONE, C3, IT'S NOT OPTION.
WE'RE NOT PUTTING IT IN AS AN OPTION UNLESS THIS BODY WANTS TO.
UH, WHEN IT COMES TO PARAPHERNALIA, UM, DO WE HAVE A DEFINITION FOR PARAPHERNALIA? THAT LIST OF DEFINITIONS IN THE, I NEED TO SEE IF
[00:35:05]
PARAPHERNALIA.UH, WE CAN ALWAYS LOOK FOR A DEFINITION TO ADD THAT IN.
SOME OF THE, SOME OF THE OTHER TOWNS DID CALL OUT, I BELIEVE PARAPHERNALIA.
IT WAS, IT, IT VARIED ON FROM PLACE TO PLACE, BUT I GUESS THAT COULD PROBABLY HAVE IT, I MEAN, LIKE THE DEFINITION OF CIGARS, ROLL OF TOBACCO WRAPPED IN A TOBACCO LEAF.
THAT WOULD, THAT WOULDN'T HURT TO DEFINE PARAPHERNALIA IN THOSE DEFINITIONS.
WE HAVE A PARAPHERNALIA DEFINITION.
IF WE EVER GO IN THE SECTION WHERE WE GO INTO, UM, 1 75, 1 5 2 LINE, 1 25, THE COMPLIANCE CHECKS, UM, ABOUT THE UNANNOUNCED OR FOLLOWUP CHECKS TO BE CONDUCTED BY THE NON-COMPLIANT RETAILER.
NOW GOING THROUGH THE EXISTING ZONING ORDINANCE, IT DOESN'T SEEM TO HAVE A PROVISION THAT WORKS VERY WELL FOR VAPING.
THERE'S ONES FOR, YOU KNOW, FOUNDATIONS AND CELL TOWERS AND ESPECIALLY THAT, BUT IT REALLY DOESN'T FIT, UH, LOOKING AT AT A, SO I WOULD THINK WE WOULD EITHER NEED TO INCLUDE IT AS PART OF THIS ORDINANCE OR UPDATE THE CODE TO DO IT.
JUST, UH, YOU KNOW, READ THROUGH IT, READ, READ THROUGH IT SEVERAL TIMES.
I COULDN'T FIND, JUST DIDN'T WRITE WELL, THAT'S ALSO GONNA DEPEND ON THE MECHANISM THAT'S CHOSEN.
SO IF THEY GO, IF COUNSEL DECIDES TO DO THIS OR YOU RECOMMEND BY SPECIAL USE PERMIT, THE ENFORCEMENT OF THAT, THE INSPECTIONS ARE GONNA BE DICTATED BY THAT SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
IF THEY WOULD ALL HAVE TO PUT IN THERE.
AND SO THAT'S WHERE, WHEN WE BRING THESE TO YOU YEAH.
YOU'RE GONNA HAVE ESSENTIALLY EVERYTHING THAT WE HAVE AS PERFORMANCE STANDARDS WOULD BE YOUR RECOMMENDED CONDITIONS.
AND, AND THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT THEY'D HAVE TO DECIDE.
THEY DECIDE TO GO THAT ROUTE, WHICH I THINK IS A BAD IDEA.
BUT IF, BUT IF WE DECIDE TO GO TO THE OTHER ROUTE, THEN WE WOULD NEED TO UPDATE SOMETHING.
THAT'S WHERE IT'S GONNA BE REALLY IMPORTANT FOR THEM TO PUT THOSE, THAT INSPECTION MECHANISM OR HOW STAFF FOLLOWS UP IN THAT SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
AND IF THEY CHOOSE NOT TO, THEN WE'RE NOT GONNA HAVE A, OKAY.
IF I'M ASSUMING WE DON'T GO TO SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
BUT WHEN WE GO THE OTHER ROUTE, THEN WE WOULD NEED SOME CHANGE OF THE INSPECTION LANGUAGE TO, TO, UM, UH, THE COMPLIANCE CHECK LANGUAGE IS WHAT I'M, I'M PROPOSING HERE.
NO, I I, I UNDERSTAND FOR THE SPECIAL USE PERMIT, IT'S GONNA HAVE A, A LITANY OF CONDITIONS THAT GO ALONG WITH IT THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO, WE WE LITIGATE EACH TIME THERE WAS A NEW ONE THAT WOULD GO ON.
UM, SO HOPEFULLY THEY DON'T GO THAT ROUTE, BUT JUST IF, WELL THIS BODY'S GONNA NEED TO MAKE A RECOMMENDATION ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.
UM, UM, DO WE HAVE TO MAKE A RECOGNITION TODAY OR CAN WE WAIT AND SEE? NO, I MEAN YOUR OPTIONS ARE PROBABLY REPLACE YOU CENTER PROFESSIONAL OFFICERS, PARAPHERNALIA AND COMPLIANCE LANGUAGE, ALL THAT WE'RE SUGGESTING BEING THE NEXT VERSION OF THIS.
GEORGE, WE'VE ALREADY ADVERTISED FOR PUBLIC HEARING.
CAN WE MAKE CHANGES TO THIS DOCUMENT FOR THIS DISCUSSION TONIGHT AND STILL DO IT? OR SHOULD WE MAKE THE CHANGES, BRING IT TO ANOTHER WORK SESSION AND HOLD OFF ON THE PUBLIC HEARING.
I LIKE OPTION B, I LIKE OPTION B AS WELL, BUT, 'CAUSE THERE'S SO MANY VARIABLES HERE.
STAFF CAN MAKE SOME ADDITIONAL CHANGES AND I CAN BRING IT BACK TO YOU.
I KNOW TOWN COUNCIL WAS IN A HURRY TO GET THIS THROUGH TOO, BUT, WELL, THE OTHER APPROACH IS YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE CHANGES ON THE FLY.
THE PUBLIC INPUT'S GONNA BE IMPORTANT TOO.
IT MAY, INPUT MAY DIRECT WHICH WAY YOU WANT GO.
MAY CHANGES THE DOCUMENT AS WELL.
UM, I GUESS WE NEED A MOTION TO DO SOMETHING.
I THINK KEEP IN MIND THESE, THESE PERFORMANCE STANDARDS THAT WE HAVE OUTLINED HERE, YOU KNOW, STAFF IS GONNA RECOMMEND THOSE FOR APPROVAL IF YOU DID A SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
THESE WOULD BE THE CONDITIONS THAT YOU WOULD DO FOR APPROVAL FOR A SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
SO MR. NEIL WAS SAYING
[00:40:01]
THAT'S IF WE GO TO SPECIAL USE PERMIT ROUTE.JUST, JUST TO, SO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT WE WOULD NORMALLY MAKE THESE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR YOU TO PLACE ON SOMETHING LIKE WE DO FOR, RIGHT.
ANY SPECIAL USE PERMIT BASED ON THE CODE, YOU MAKE A RECOMMENDATION.
TOWN COUNCIL, THEY MAY ADD MORE OR THEY HAVE THE CAPACITY TO SUBTRACT FROM IT.
ESSENTIALLY, IF IT GOES SPECIAL USE PERMIT, YOUR JOB IS GONNA BE TO LOOK AT OUR, YOU KNOW, OUR RECOMMENDATIONS AND WHAT THE CODE SAYS AND MAKE A RECOMMENDATION IN ACCORDANCE WITH THAT.
ONCE IT GETS TO COUNCIL, THEY COULD DECIDE, LIKE STAFF WOULD, IF THEY DON'T MEET THESE PERFORMANCE STANDARDS OR WHAT WE THINK THEY NEED TO, WE'RE GONNA MAKE THE RECOMMENDATION THAT THEY SHOULD EITHER DENY IT OR APPROVE IT.
IF WE MAKE THE RECOMMENDATION TO DENY, THEY CAN STILL SUPERSEDE THAT AND SAY, HERE ARE THE CONDITIONS UPON WHICH THIS IS PREVENTED.
I THINK THAT'S WAY, THE WAY WE OUGHT TO GO WITH IT.
YOU, YOU SUGGESTING MR. NEIL THAT, THAT YOU WANTED TO TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT COMPLIANCE LANGUAGE, EVEN IF WE WENT WITH THE, THE, UH, BY RIGHT USAGE? WELL, IT'S, IT'S ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW OR BY RIGHT.
TAKE A LOOK AT THE, UM, UM, THE COMPLIANCE LANGUAGE TO GO ALONG WITH IT.
SO YOU, YOU, YOU NEED TO LOOK AT THAT AND MAKE YOUR INPUT TO JOHN BEFORE OUR NEXT WORK SESSION.
I THINK WE COULD THAT, THAT, UM, OR IF YOU WANNA GO TO SPECIAL USE ROUTE, THAT'S MINIMAL.
WE NEED TO, BEFORE, SINCE WE'RE JUMPING BACK AND FORTH, DO WE NEED TO DECIDE WHAT THE GROUP IS THINKING HERE FOR TOWARD? I WOULD, WELL THAT'S WHAT I'M THINKING.
WE SHOULD HAVE, LET'S NOT DO AN OFFICIAL MOTION.
SO IF I MAY, OBVIOUSLY THE BRIGHT LINE HERE IS IF IT'S SPECIAL USE, IT'S NOT BY RIGHT.
AND SO ANY BUSINESS IN C ONE OR C3 THAT WANTS TO COMMIT 25% YEAH.
OF THEIR FLOOR SPACE TO BAIT PRODUCTS HAS TO GET SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
THEY WOULD ALREADY HAVE A, THEY WOULD ALREADY HAVE A WHOLE SET OF RULES THAT ARE JUST RIGHT THERE FOR THAT ABOVE.
AND YOU TAKE TOWN COUNCIL OUT OF EQUATION.
WHEN MARIJUANA BECOMES LEGAL, THIS DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT.
SO WHEN MARIJUANA BECOMES LEGAL, ARE WE GONNA BE MAKING, THAT'S GONNA HAVE TO BE A WHOLE OTHER ORDINANCE, MAKING ANOTHER ORDINANCE TO DEAL WITH THAT? IT WOULD, BUT AT THE SAME TIME IT WOULD, ONE, I THINK IT WOULD SET A GOOD PRECEDENT.
AND THEN ALSO WHAT A LOT OF THESE BUSINESSES DO, THE BIGGER CHANGE AT LEAST IS THEY SET UP A BUNCH OF, UM, OF THEIR TOBACCO VAPE SHOPS BECAUSE THEY, WHEN IT COMES TO LOOKING AT THE PROFITS, THEY ARE CONSIDERED MORE OF A SINGLE ENTITY.
AND SO WHEN THEN THEY'RE, THEY MARIJUANA LAWS GET CHANGED, THEN IT'S EASIER FOR THEM TO MAKE ARGUMENTS EITHER INTERNALLY OR, OR OUTSIDE THAT THEY CAN THEN SWITCH TO JUST ADDING IN, ADDING IN MARIJUANA.
SO I WOULD THINK, AND THIS, YOU KNOW, I, I COULD BE WRONG, BUT HAVING RESTRICTIONS ON WHERE THE NEW ONES CAN COME UP WILL THEN, YOU KNOW, DEFACTO HAVE AN EFFECT ON WHERE THEY'LL SHOW UP OR HOW THEY'LL SHOW UP WHEN MARIJUANA IS IN BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GONNA OPEN UP NECESSARILY A NEW SHOP.
AND YES, THERE WILL BE ONES, BUT YOU ALSO BE YOUR CHAINS THAT ARE ALREADY HERE THAT THEN START ADDING THAT AS A, AS A PRODUCT AVAILABLE.
SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S GETTING AHEAD OF THE CURVE, I THINK, A LITTLE BIT.
BUT ONCE THEY'RE OPEN AND OPERATING, IF SOMETHING THAT'S CURRENTLY LISTING OPENS OR GETS PERMISSION FROM THE STATE, HOWEVER THAT'S GONNA WORK.
WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO FIGURE OUT IF AT THAT POINT WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO GO IN AND CHECK.
I DON'T KNOW HOW WE WOULD EVEN, I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO GO IN ON THAT.
NOT KNOWING WHAT, LIKE SAY WE HAVE THE, IF WE, UH, IF THIS GOES BY SPECIAL USE PERMIT AND A NEW ONE OPENS UP AND THEN DOWN THE ROAD THEY GET PERMISSION FROM THE STATE TO START SELLING MARIJUANA.
I DON'T KNOW HOW WE WOULD KNOW THAT THEY GOT PERMISSION INTO THEN.
LIKE HOW WOULD WE, HOW WOULD WE RAISE, IT'S GONNA GET PRETTY TRICKY.
WE CAN PREEMPTIVELY EXCLUDE BARREL.
THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH WE CAN FIGURE OUT RIGHT NOW.
SO WELL, UH, LET ME JUST ASK A SHOW OF HANDS.
UH, WHO IS TENDING TOWARD WANTING A BUY RIGHT RAISE AND WHO IS TENDING TOWARD WANTING TO STOP THAT? THIS? OH, WE HAVE A DEADLOCK HERE.
[00:45:01]
I MEAN, I'M NOT MARRIED TO IT BY ANY STRETCH.I MEAN, THERE'S MORE INFORMATION I ASSUME THAT WE, WE COULD GET AND THEN PUBLIC WEIGHS IN.
I MEAN THERE'S, THERE'S, THERE'S OTHER FACTORS AT PLAY VERSUS, YOU KNOW, OUTSIDE OF JUST THE BRU BRIEF CONVERSATION.
AND YOU CAN HOLD A PUBLIC HEARING.
YOU DON'T, IF YOU GET INFORMATION YOU NEED ADDITIONAL TIME.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO NECESSARILY MAKE A DECISION THAT TIME.
WELL, I GUESS WHAT, I GUESS WHAT THIS BODY NEEDS IS VERSION TWO, UH, MR. NEIL, GET WITH MR. WARE AND PLEA WHENEVER YOU WANT AND YOU WANT TO SUGGEST, AND THEN WE, WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS AND THE NEXT WORK SESSION.
THAT WAS JUST, JUST THE ONE ADDITIONAL SECTION IN THERE.
AND PLUS ADDING WOULD ALSO TO ADD USE CENTERS IN THERE WOULD ALSO CHANGE, BLOW IT UP, ADD USE CENTERS AND THEN PROFESSIONAL OFFICES DEFINE PARAPHERNALIA.
WELL, THEY WOULD, YEAH, THEY WOULD.
WAS THERE ANYTHING ELSE THAT, THAT WE WERE STIPULATING ACTUALLY, NOW THAT THE MARIJUANA THING IS BROUGHT UP, DO MEAN, DO WE WANT TO REALLY GET AHEAD OF THE CURVE AND INCLUDE MARIJUANA SHOPS IN HERE?
I WOULDN'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO START REGULATING THAT.
I MEAN, THE STATE HASN'T, I DON'T KNOW, WE DEFINE WHAT A MARIJUANA DISPENSARY OR SHOP LIKE THIS WOULD EVEN LOOK LIKE.
I MEAN, THEIR, THEIR, THEY'RE, THEY'RE, THEY HAVE 'EM OVER IN NORTHERN VIRGINIA.
I'M ASSUMING THAT THE MEDICAL FACILITIES, YEAH.
YEAH, NO, I WAS JUST, I WAS JUST WONDERING TWO LINES WITH ONE THOUGHT.
SO CAN I SAY SOMETHING PLEASE? UM, IF, IF YOU DECIDE NOT TO TAKE IT TO PUBLIC HEARING ON THE, THE 20TH THIS MONTH OR 16TH, IF WE DON'T, THEN THERE'S NO OTHER ITEMS ON THE AGENDA.
SO YOU COULD HAVE A WORK SESSION THAT NIGHT INSTEAD OF THE PUBLIC HEARING.
WE, WE HAVE AN ITEM ON THE ON COMMISSION MEETING.
WE DO WHAT? JUST THE ORDINANCE AND THE, UH, SPECIAL EXCEPTION.
OH, THAT'S GONNA BE BACK ON THE AGENDA.
WE CAN COME BACK AND WE JUST DON'T HAVE ANY, WE HAVEN'T RECEIVED ANY INFORMATION.
BUT THAT'S NOT TO SAY THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE, LET'S NOT SAY THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE A WORK SESSION RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING AND THEN OPEN UP THE, WELL, OUR RECOMMENDATION SINCE THERE'S GOING AND ULTIMATELY THE TOWN, THE TOWN COUNCIL TO DECIDE WHICH WAY THEY WANT TO GO ON THIS.
SO WE CAN MAKE A RECOMMENDATION.
E EVEN IF WE'RE SPLIT, WE CAN MAKE THE RECOMMENDATION TO GO ALONG WITH IT.
BUT PROBABLY THE BEST, IT SOUNDS LIKE THE THING TO DO TO MOVE ALONG.
'CAUSE I THINK EVEN THE TOWN COUNCIL LISTENING TO THEM, SOME OF THEM WANT TO GO FOR THE, UH, SPECIAL USE PERMIT AS WELL.
GIVE THEM BOTH OPTIONS IF YOU, YOU KNOW, IN, IN TOTAL OF WHAT TO USE.
HERE'S, HERE'S A RECOMMENDATION.
IF YOU GO THIS WAY, JUST SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU STARTED, IF YOU GO THIS WAY, HERE IT IS.
IF YOU GO THAT WAY, HERE'S THE OTHER ONE.
AND THEY CAN ALWAYS SEND IT BACK TO PLANNING COMMISSION TO WORK ON IT FURTHER.
IF THEY DON'T LIKE, THEY DON'T LIKE EITHER OF THE EITHER TOO.
MAYBE THAT'S A WAY FOR US TO PROCEED, TO MAKE, TO HAVE TWO DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF IT.
WELL ALSO, I MEAN, IF WE'RE PUTTING THIS ON OUR NEXT WORK SESSION, THAT'S NOT UNTIL DECEMBER.
SO YOU'VE GOT THE MONTH WHERE WE CAN, WELL, YOU CAN HAVE A WORK SESSION IN TWO WEEKS ON IT.
WOULD WE HAVE A A THEY'RE NOT SIGNIFICANT CHANGES THAT WE COULD YEAH, THIS WOULD BE, THIS IS, THESE CHANGES WOULDN'T BE TAP.
SO WE'D HAVE ANOTHER VERSION IN ADVANCE OF LET'S, BECAUSE SPECIAL USE PERMIT, WE DON'T HAVE TO PUT THE ADDITIONAL LANGUAGE ON THIS, ON THINGS BECAUSE IT WOULD BE UP TO EACH SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
SO THAT'S JUST PUTTING ALL THE DEFINITIONS THAT WE FIND RELEVANT.
SO ADDING PARAPHERNALIA, ADDING THOSE TO 1 75 3 AND THEN ADDING THAT USE AS A SPECIAL USE PERMIT USE.
THAT'S THE, THAT'S THE WHOLE AMENDMENT IS SO, BUT IF, IF WE DO IT AS A BY RIGHT? THEN USE ADMINISTRATIVE.
WE HAVE THE DEFINITIONS, THEN WE HAVE MORE PERMANENT UNCHANGING CONTROL OVER.
AND IF YOU'RE, IF YOU'RE A VAPE SHOP OPERATOR OR A TOBACCO SHOP OPERATOR AND YOU, AND YOU HAVE THE, UM, AND YOU HAVE TO APPLY FOR SPECIAL USE PERMIT AS OPPOSED TO, HERE ARE THE RULES, YOU KNOW, IF YOU WANT TO OPEN THIS UP.
OR YES YOU CAN BECAUSE WE ALREADY HAVE THIS DEFINED THING AS OPPOSED TO, WELL MAYBE YOU CAN DO IT.
YOU HAVE TO GO FOR A SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
AND THEN YOU CAN LOBBY YOUR MEMBERS OF COUNCIL, YOU LOBBY.
JUST, I I CAN, I CAN SEE THINGS BLOWING UP THERE.
NO, GOD
[00:50:01]
SEEMS, SEEMS LIKE WE OUGHT TO JUST GO AHEAD AND GIVE THEM BOTH.WE OUGHT TO WORK TOWARD GIVING THEM BOTH, IS MY OPINION.
SO THEN WHAT WE'LL DO IS WE'LL HAVE THESE TEXT CHANGES AND CLEAN THIS UP AND WE'LL DO A WORK SESSION AT THE NEXT WHATEVER, NEXT MEETING.
TYPICALLY WE HAVE 'EM AFTER THE REGULAR MEETING.
HOWEVER, HOWEVER WE TYPICALLY DO IT.
BUT WE CAN DO IT ON THAT NIGHT.
SO WE ONLY HAVE THE ONE, THE DISCUSSION.
THAT WAY YOU CAN DO THE PUBLIC HEARING IN DECEMBER.
YOU THE ITEM WOULD BE THE SPECIAL EXCEPTION ON THE PARKING.
AND THAT SHOULD BE A FAIRLY QUICK, THAT SHOULD BE FAIRLY QUICK THIS TIME.
SO AT OUR, OUR NEXT MEETING IS NOVEMBER THE 20TH.
SO AFTER THAT STATEMENT, AFTER THAT A WORK SESSION.
I JUST STOP BY AND SEE YOU FOR THESE COUPLE ITEMS THAT YOU HAVE.
I TURN IN A LOT MORE DISCUSSION THAN I EXPECTED.
DO YOU WANT ME TO YOU FAVOR? PARDON? YOU BECOMING IN FAVOR? NO, I'M, I'M IN FAVOR OF OH, YOU'RE IN FAVOR BY, RIGHT.
I'M JUST SAYING I'M IN FAVOR OF BY.
BUT I'M SAYING WE SPLIT AMONGST US AND LISTEN TO THE TOWN COUNCIL.
I, THEY'RE, I ALREADY KNOW THAT THEY'RE SPLIT ON HOW THEY'RE THINKING BY WATCHING THE MEETINGS.
SO LET, LET'S GIVE THEM BOTH THE OPTION RATHER THAN, UM, TURNING INTO, UM, I'M TRYING NOT TO GIVE THEM A PROBLEM.
AT LEAST I'M THINKING OF GIVE 'EM A PROBLEM.
I'M GIVING 'EM THE TWO SOLUTIONS FOR THEM TO PICK AS OPPOSED TO GIVING ONE SOLUTION WHEN A COUPLE OF 'EM OR SOME REALLY WANT THE OTHER ONE.
SO RECOMMENDATION COULD JUST BE PICK TWO.
WE RECOMMEND TO PICK ONE OF THESE TWO THINGS.
OR, OR WE COULD STILL, EVEN IF WE GIVE A RECOMMENDATION BOTH IF WE, IF WE FEEL STRONGLY BY RIGHT.
IT'S COMFORTABLE AND BY ALL MEANS.
I WON'T EITHER WAY WORK ACTUALLY FEEL THAT THAT'S WHAT'S BETTER FOR THE HEALTH, SAFETY AND WELFARE COMMUNITY, THEN THAT'S WHAT WE ARE HERE TO RECOMMEND.
SO YOU'RE NOT TAKING YOUR CHANCES.
IT'S MORE OF A BUSINESS FRIENDLY OPTION IF THEY LIKE THAT PHRASE.
I, AND THEY CAN ALWAYS DO STUFF ANYTIME THEY WANT.
BUT IF, IF THEY'RE ASKING OUR ADVICE, THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO DO, I SUPPOSE.
BUT SOMETIMES THEY HAVE TO OUR ADVICE, YOU'RE MAKING A RECOMMENDATION.
BUT IF YOU DON'T WANT TO, YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT.
THIS IS THE OTHER WAY, BUT THESE ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF DOING SO.
AND THAT, THAT, I DON'T KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT PROVIDING TWO DIFFERENT RECOMMENDATIONS.
'CAUSE THEN WE'RE NOT REALLY DOING ANYTHING, IN MY OPINION.
THIS IS, THESE ARE THE TWO OPTIONS.
I DON'T THINK, I THINK WE, OUR ROLE IS TO DO THIS SEARCH, DO THE HEARING, PROVIDE A RECOMMENDATION TO THEM.
SO I THINK THAT WOULD BE MORE, I THINK, UH, I CAN GET SOME NUMBERS FOR YOU.
WE HAD A MEETING LAST WEEK ON THURSDAY WITH, I DON'T WANT TO PRODUCE THE NUMBERS.
I WANT, I WILL NOT SAY 140 LOCALITIES REPRESENTED TO THE STATE.
140, I THINK 139 PARTICIPANTS.
THROUGH THE, OUR VASO MEETING THAT WE HAD.
AND THIS WAS ONE ITEM OF DISCUSSION.
UH, WE CAN KIND OF LOOK AND SEE WHAT THESE OTHER LOCALITIES ARE DOING.
I CAN REACH OUT TO THEM AND, UM, SEE HOW MANY WAS REPRESENTATIVE.
THERE WAS SOME PLUSES AND MINUSES THAT LOCALITIES HAVE ALREADY, UM, HAD PASSED EITHER SPECIAL USE PERMIT AND OR RATE PERFORMANCE STANDARDS BY RIGHT.
SO THERE WAS PLUSES AND MINUSES BY THE LOCALITIES THAT WE HAD DISCUSSION ON.
AND WE CAN TRY TO GET SOME NUMBERS ABOUT THE 20TH TO SEE WHAT THE PROS AND CONS, EITHER WAY THAT THEY HAVE RAN INTO, WHY DON'T WE GIVE THEM TO THE NEXT WORK SESSIONS.
BONNIE NEEDS TO DECIDE WHICH WAY YOU WANT TO GO.
THAT WAY WE'RE NOT GIVING COUNSEL MIXED MESSAGES.
AND IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT, THEY CAN ONLY SEND IT BACK.
I WAS JUST SUGGESTING, ARE WE, IS THERE A SHIFT HERE AS FAR AS STAFF DIRECTION? ARE WE, ARE WE STILL GOING DOWN THE PARALLEL? ARE WE, I I I THINK WE'RE, ARE WE SHIFTING NOW BACK TO MORE TOWARD BY RIGHT.
AM I, AM I
AND THAT'S WHERE THE COMMISSION IS.
THAT WOULD BE APPRECIATED BECAUSE YEAH.
IN, IN MY WORLD, NOTHING SIMPLE.
EVERY WORD, EVERY PARAGRAPH MATTERS.
WELL, I MEAN THAT'S, I DUNNO WHERE HE IS.
[00:55:01]
NOW INCLINING TOWARD THE BY.THAT, THAT'S, WE I DIDN'T KNOW HOW YOU WERE INLINING.
SO LET, LET'S GO IN THAT DIRECTION.
THEN WE'LL GO IN THAT DIRECTION FOR THE WORK SESSION.
AND THEN CAN ALWAYS, YOU CAN ALWAYS, YOU CAN ALWAYS GO SOUTH.
YOU STILL HAVE THE PUBLIC HEARING WHERE YOU CAN GET PUBLIC INPUT.
IT CAN BLOW EVERYTHING UP AGAIN.
JUST AND THAT'LL BE, THE PUBLIC HEARING WILL BE DECEMBER, RIGHT? RIGHT.
IF WE DO THIS AT THE NOVEMBER 20TH MEETING, THEN THE PUBLIC HEARING WILL BE JUST PUT ON THE CONSENT AGENDA.
AND I TRY PUBLIC HEARING WILL BE AND YOU STILL HAVE ANOTHER WORK SESSION.
SO THERE WE'D HAVE THE DECEMBER 4TH WORK SESSION AND THEN THE PUBLIC HEARING DECEMBER 18TH.
AND THAT'S GOOD TIME FOR A PUBLIC HEARING.
THERE WON'T BE INTO CHRISTMAS YET.
IT GIVES TIME FOR THE PUBLIC TO BECOME AWARE THAT THE ISSUE COMING.
IF IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO BRING UP OR HAVE TO BE ON THE AGENDA FOR THE, UH, DECEMBER 4TH WORK SESSION, THEN WOULD IT MAKE SENSE TO JUST KEEP IT TO THEN AND NOT PUT A DEADLINE OF THE 20TH AT THAT POINT? UM, I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW IF WE NEED ANOTHER TECHNICALLY LIKE ONE AND A HALF, TWO WORK SESSIONS ON IT.
UM, WELL WE DO NEED TO LOOK AT IT AGAIN.
BUT IF THIS IS GONNA END GETTING PUSHED TO THE, UH, DECEMBER PUBLIC HEARING.
WELL, THERE'S ALREADY A WORK SESSION IN DECEMBER ANYWAY.
WELL, WE'RE DOING THE WORK SESSION AFTER THE MEETING ON NOVEMBER 20TH.
BUT THAT'S WHAT I'M WONDERING.
DO WE NEED TO DO THAT IF WE'RE ALREADY GONNA HAVE A, A WORK SESSION WHERE THIS WILL BE ON THERE? WE HAVE TO KEEP THE PUBLIC HEARING ON SCHEDULE THE, NO.
SO THE, ON THE 20TH WE WOULD HAVE OUR REGULAR MEETING AND THEN THE WORK SESSION AFTERWARDS.
IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? AND SO IF THE AD HAS TO BE TO THE NEWSPAPER THE LAST WEEK OF NOVEMBER TO BE ADVERTISED FOR DECEMBER, OTHERWISE WE'LL PUSH IT TO JANUARY.
IF, AND YOUR QUESTION IS IF WE DEAL WITH IT IN THE WORK SESSION ON THE 20TH? NO, YOU'RE ASKING DO WE NEED TO DEAL WITH IT FOR THE WORK SESSION ON DECEMBER THE FOURTH? I MEAN, I GUESS, I MEAN IT'S JUST, I'M, I'M WONDERING, SO WHAT I'M WONDERING IS IF THE ORDER EVENTS WOULD BE LIKE THIS IN THE PUBLIC HEARING, UM, ON THE 20TH, WE, WE PUT IT, WE HAVE ON THE CONSENT AGENDA, WE DON'T HAVE A WORK SESSION THAT DAY BECAUSE IT WOULD BE REDUNDANT TO THE FOURTH.
WE HAVE OUR WORK SESSION ON THE FOURTH, YOU KNOW, FIGURE OUT WHERE WE ARE ON IT, YOU KNOW, SET THINGS AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE THEN.
BUT WHAT HEARING IS NOT ON THE 20 TO HOUR? I THOUGHT THAT'S WHAT YOU WERE SAYING.
NOW WE'VE GOT ANOTHER AGENDA FOR THE NOVEMBER 20TH AFTER THE PUBLIC.
SO WE'RE GONNA HAVE, WE'RE GONNA NEED SESSIONS AFTER THE, WE NEED THE TEXT TO ADVERTISE.
SO THAT DEADLINE IS IRRELEVANT I UNDERSTAND.
WELL THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO DISCUSS RIGHT NOW.
AND THEN, AND THEN, THEN IT GETS ON THE CONSENT AGENDA FOR YES.
TO GO FOR A PUBLIC HEARING ON DECEMBER 18TH.
SO WE'LL HAVE NEW DRAFT TO YOU FOR THE 20TH.
WE CAN REVIEW IT, YOU CAN GIVE US THE BLESSING TO MOVE IT TO PUBLIC HEARING.
WE'LL GET EVERYTHING ADVERTISED.
YOU HAVE ONE MORE LOOK AT IT ON DECEMBER 4TH AND WE'LL GO TO PUBLIC HEARING ON DECEMBER 18TH.
DO WE, DO WE, UH, DO WE NEED CALL FOR STAFF AGAIN TO WALK US THROUGH ARTICLE TWO? ARTICLE TWO TONIGHT WE ARE LOOKING AT ARTICLE TWO OF THE PROPOSED ZONING ORDINANCE.
UM, SO AGAIN, TO REITERATE, ANYTHING THAT IS IN GREEN IS NEW TEXT.
ANYTHING THAT IS IN BLUE TIMES IN ROMAN IS EXISTING IN OUR CURRENT ZONING ORDINANCE.
UM, STAFF HAS A FEW PROPOSED CHANGES TO DISCUSS WITH YOU.
BUT FIRST I THINK WE'D LIKE TO HEAR YOUR PROPOSED CHANGES.
WELL, ANYBODY WHO HAS, LET'S BEGIN WITH
APPLICATION DISTRICT REGULATIONS.
ANYBODY HAVE ANYTHING ON PAGE FOUR?
[01:00:01]
NO.OH, SORRY, YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE ENTIRE PAGE.
I, IT'S IN A SEPARATE WINDOW IF YOU BY PARAGRAPH ALL THAT.
THIS WAS JUST SOMETHING THAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND QUITE.
SO SECTION 2.3, THE HEIGHT, BULK DENSITY.
UM, SO THAT WOULD BE OUR ACCOMMO MANY THE HOUSE FOR AREA.
UM, SO YOU CANNOT EXCEED 2.1, 2.1 0.3.
SO UNDER A, WHERE IT SAYS FIRST STARTS SAYS NO, BUILDING ANOTHER STRUCTURE SHALL HEREAFTER BE ERECTED OR ALTERED, WHICH YOU'RE GOING TO EXCEED THE HEIGHT OR THE BULK OF THAT ZONING DISTRICT.
SO FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU HAVE A WHATEVER DISTRICT, UH, SO WE ARE DOING THE ONE FOR THE, UH, THE APARTMENTS, UH, THEY'RE ALL CRIES.
OR THE MAXIMUM HEIGHT FOR THAT ZONING DISTRICT FOR APARTMENTS IS 45 FEET IN THAT PART OF THE CODE.
SO WHAT'S THIS SAYING? YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO EXCEED THE HEIGHT OR THE BULK, WHICH IS THE MASS OF THE PROPERTY.
SHOULD WE PUT IN THERE JUST TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR THE PUBLIC TO FOLLOW THIS, TO EXCEED THE HEIGHT OR BULK OF THE ZONING DISTRICT? SO EACH ZONING DISTRICT HAS ITS OWN HEIGHT AND BULK REQUIREMENT.
SO WE CAN SAY OF THE UNDERLYING ZONING DISTRICT TO COMPLETE THE SENTENCE.
SHALL I GIVE, SHOULD I READ OUT THE LANGUAGE? AND CAN SOMEBODY WRITE DOWN OF THE UNDERLYING, UNDERLYING ZONING DISTRICT ALREADY IN EFFECT IN THE CODE? LOOK, YOU CAN LOOK AT THAT AND SEE IF IT WORKS.
BUT THAT'S, DOES THAT ADDRESS WHAT YOU WERE? YES.
SO WHEN I FIRST READ THIS, I HAD I LIKE THREE OR FOUR TIMES GOING, WHAT ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT? I DON'T UNDERSTAND.
AND NOW I DO, AND NOW IT MAKES COMPLETE SENSE AND I FEEL A LITTLE SILLY, BUT UNDERLYING ZONING DISTRICT IN THAT COMPLETE MM-HMM.
AND ALSO THAT'S WITH C THAT TO OCCUPY A GREATER PERCENTAGE OF LOT AREAS.
SO SOME DISTRICT DOES HAVE, UH, PERCENTAGE FOR BUILDING MASS.
UH, I THINK THE C ONE'S, UH, 90%.
YOU CAN'T HAVE THE LOT THAT ON THAT LOT.
90% OF THE, THE BUILDING CANNOT OCCUPY MORE THAN 90% OF THE LOCKED.
SO THAT'S WHAT THAT IS, UH, TRYING TO DETERMINE THERE OR TO GIVE THAT CANNOT BE CHANGED.
ANYTHING ELSE ON PAGE FOUR? LEMME SAY PAGE FOUR, THAT SECTION TWO POINT DIVISION 2.2 ESTABLISHMENT OF DISTRICTS.
IF YOU GO BY THE LINE ITEM, YOU MIGHT HELP THE, THE OTHER MEMBERS THAT A LITTLE BIT.
SO OBVIOUS WOULD OF DISTRICT'S OFFICIAL ZONING WRAP LINE 22.
DOES YOURS HAVE LINES ON IT? I LINE NUMBERS.
HAVE LINE NUMBERS, JUST HAVE SECTION NUMBERS.
THAT'S ON THE THING I WAS SUGGESTING MOVING THE WHOLE SECTION AHEAD OF SECTION ONE, 2.1.
CAN YOU READ US LINE 20? BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE LINE NUMBERS.
IT'S THE, UH, LINE 20 IS THE ESTABLISHMENT OF DISTRICTS AND OFFICIALS, ZONING, MAP, AND DUPLICATION OF BOUNDARIES.
I WAS SUGGESTING MOVING THAT AHEAD OF APPLICATION OF DISTRICT REGULATION, WHICH IS 2.1 AND THE RE AND, UH, WAS, AND UM, IT, IT, THAT SECTION I'M SAYING MOVEMENT DEFINES WHAT A DISTRICT, UH, IS AND SHOULD PRECLUDE LANGUAGE OF THE EXISTING 2.1, WHICH REFERS TO THE DISTRICT.
IN OTHER WORDS, DEFINE THE TERM BEFORE USING IT.
I'M GONNA COME AND LOOK AT WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT BECAUSE I'M NOT SURE, BUT YEAH, I HAVE IT.
APPLICATION OF DISTRICT RADIO.
THE 2.20, YOU SAYING ALL OF 2.2 MOVE ALL OF ALL 2.1.
SWITCH ALL OF 2.2 AHEAD OF 2.12.
'CAUSE 2.2, THIS, IT'S, IT'S A, THE WORLD WON'T COME TO AN END IF YOU DON'T DO THIS, BUT IT JUST, JUST
[01:05:01]
SEEMS CLEANER.SO THAT WOULD BE PAGES 4, 5, 6, AND SEVEN.
AND THE BEGINNING OF EIGHT, THAT'S ALL 2.2.
WELL, NO, SEVEN IS WHERE TWO, THREE STARTS.
SO IT'LL BE ALL UP TO THE TOP OF PAGE SEVEN.
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT FIXING ALL BACK? YEAH, I MADE THE NOTE.
THIS, THIS, THIS IS OBJECTION.
UM, I HAVE A, JUST A FACTUAL QUESTION.
LOCATION OF OFFICIAL ZONING MAP.
OTHER THAN THE WEBSITE, IS IT PUBLICLY ON A WALL, SOMEWHERE IN TOWN? WALL PLACE? WE HAVE COPIES AVAILABLE FOR THE PUBLIC.
SO THEY CAN COME IN, WE CAN PRINT 'EM, WE CAN SEND IT TO THEM, WHICH IS NOT OFFICE.
IT'S ON THE HANGING IN JOHN'S OFFICE BECAUSE WE SAY IT'LL BE LOCATED A PUBLIC PLACE.
IS THAT CONSIDERED A PUBLIC PLACE? YOUR OFFICE? YES.
AND IT'S ON OUR WEBSITE AS WELL? YEAH.
AND OUR, ALSO OUR CONFERENCE ROOM DOWNSTAIRS, SHE'LL BE SAFE.
SHE'LL BE LOCATED ON THE TOWN WEBSITE.
I THINK THIS IS IN ACCORDANCE WITH STATE CODE.
SO, AND THEN THERE, UH, UNDER A 2.2 0.5 A, NOW AT THE BOTTOM THERE ARE.DOT DOTS AT THE BOTTOM OF PARAGRAPH A 1 51.
UH, THIS, I THINK IT'S LIKE THE DATE AND NUMBER THAT ARE CURRENTLY YEAH, BLANK.
SO ONCE THIS IS ADOPTED BY COUNCIL.
SO, BUT IT'S ADOPTED BY COUNCIL.
2.2 0.6 INNUATION DISTRICTS, ANYBODY JUST THE TYPOS THAT ARE IN THERE WHERE THINGS AREN'T CENTERED ON LINE 65, 70, 71.
AND THAT ALL GETS CLEANED UP ONCE ON THE LANGUAGE.
NO, THEY GOT MINUTES FOR THAT.
AND I, I WAS ASKING, UH, WHERE, SEE, UM, ABOUT ANY PROPERTY COMING INTO TERRITORY OR JURISDICTION OF THE TOWN OF FRONT ROYAL.
FRONT ROYAL BY ANNEXATION OR OTHERWISE SHALL BE TEMPORARILY CLASSIFIED IN AGRICULTURAL OPEN SPACE PRESERVATION.
NOW ON THAT POWERPOINT, IF YOU CLICK ON THAT POWERPOINT TAB AND YOU MOVE DOWN ONE SIDE, OKAY.
AND IT'S THE 2.2 0.61 I HAD IN THERE.
MY, I WAS JUST, IS THERE NO POSSIBLE ANNEX ANNEX PROPERTY THAT WOULD BE DISADVANTAGED BY JUST I GENERALIZED THINKING? SO THAT IS IN STATE CODE? THAT'S STATE CODE.
YEAH, BECAUSE IT WOULD IMMEDIATELY, UM, IF I'LL, I'LL JUST SAY MY LINE OF THINKING, BUT IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE ANNEXING PART OF THE COUNTY INTO THE CITY, THERE WOULD'VE BEEN A WHOLE LOT OF WORK DONE AHEAD OF TIME.
UH, YOU KNOW, TALKING ABOUT THE INFRASTRUCTURE, THE CONNECTING, WHAT YOU'RE GONNA DO WITH THE PROPERTY, WHY IT'S BEING ANNEXED.
SO IF IT'S ALREADY HAD, UH, I'LL JUST PULL IT OUTTA THERE.
SUPPOSE WE WERE GOING TO ANNEX PART OF THE SHOPPING CENTER NORTH OF CATH.
WELL, WE WOULDN'T WANT TO THEN CALL IT A RURAL DISTRICT OR, OR SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES.
WELL, I GUESS THEN WE WOULD WONDER WHAT THE DEFINITION OF TEMPORARILY IS, BECAUSE WOULD IT BE SOMETHING WHERE, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT'S DECIDED THAT THEY'RE ANNEXING IT, THEN IT'S ALSO REZONED.
WELL, WHAT IS TEMPORARY AND ARE THEY DISADVANTAGED BY HAVING THAT DESIGNATION? THAT, THAT'S MY QUESTION.
IF THEY'RE GRANDFATHERED IN AS AGRICULTURE, THEN THEY'RE, THEY HAVE, SO WHAT, WHAT, WHAT? I JUST, UH, IT SEEMS LIKE THAT WOULD BE DECIDED AT THE TIME OF ANNEXATION RATHER THAN IMMEDIATELY GRANT, YOU KNOW, CALL THEM SOMETHING ARBITRARY.
SO THIS IS VIRGINIA CODE, UH, 15.2 DASH 2286.
UM, PART TWO OF THIS IS FOR THE TEMPORARY APPLICATION OF THE ORDINANCE TO ANY PROPERTY COMING INTO THE TERRITORIAL JURISDICTION OF THE GOVERNING BODY BY ANNEXATION OR OTHERWISE, SUBSEQUENT TO THE ADOPTION OF THE ZONING ORDINANCE AND PENDING THE ORDERLY AMENDMENTS OF THE ORDINANCE.
SO BASICALLY IT HAS, AND THAT TRACKS TOWN CODE.
THAT TRACKS CODE TOWN CODE TRACKS THAT, WHICH IS, YES.
[01:10:02]
ANNEX PROPERTY WOULD BE RESETS THE LEAST INTENSIVE USE PENDING ORDERLY AMENDMENT BY THE ANNEXING JURISDICTION.SO BASICALLY IT HAS TO COME AT THE LEAST INTENSIVE USE, THEN IT WOULD NEED TO BE REZONED.
SO FIRST YOU'RE DECIDING TO BRING IT IN AND THEN THE PROPER PROCEDURE ZONING TO REZONE IT ACCORDING.
IS THERE ANY DOWNSIDE TO ZONING IF THE LEAST INTENSIVE USE PRIOR TO, I MEAN, NO, I THINK THAT'S THE RATIONALE BEHIND THE STATE.
IS THE OBJECTIVE AS WAS READ, IS ORDERLY AMENDMENT.
ORDERLY AMENDMENT FOLLOW, GONNA FOLLOW.
SO THAT'S, SO YOU WANT TO START AT THE LEASE.
AND SO THE, YOU'RE SAYING IT'S PART OF A FOLLOWING BOOK, PART OF A PROCESS THAT GO, GOES ALONG WITH IT, WHERE THE ZONING PORTION WOULD BE IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING IF THE APPLICANT, IF THE APPLICANT CHOSE, OR IT COULD BE ACTUALLY BE CONCURRENT, POTENTIALLY.
WELL, WELL, THE ANNEXATION WOULD HAVE TO PROCEED.
WELL, AND I MEAN, IN CONDITION WITH, WHILE THEY'RE WORKING ON THE ANNEXATION, THEY CAN SAY, HEY, WE'RE GONNA GET YOU IN, WE'RE GONNA PUT YOU IN THE ZONING.
C WELL, IT WOULD, WELL WOULD COME INTO A ONE AND, AND MAYBE THE PROPERTY OWNER'S FINE WITH THAT.
IF THAT'S, IF THE STATE, IF WE'RE FOLLOW STATE, I THINK THAT'S THE INTENT.
WE HAVE TO FOLLOW THE STATE CODE.
THE INTENT IS COMING AT THE LOWEST AND, AND WELL, AS IT SAYS, FOLLOW AN ORDERLY PROCESS IN LOOKING AT A REZONE.
I DIDN'T TRY TO LOOK AT THE STATE CODE TO SEE IF THAT WAS REFERENCED IN THERE, SO, FAIR ENOUGH.
DOES ANYBODY ELSE HAVE ANYTHING ELSE HERE IN THIS SECTION? I, I'M ASSUMING THAT THE 2.2 0.11 TEMPORARY EMERGENCY USES IS ALREADY SOMEWHERE IN THE CODE.
WE'RE FOLLOWING STATE CODE ON THAT ABOUT TEMPORARY HOUSING FOR AGENCY.
SO THE WAY THIS IS WITH THE CONSULTANT DID AN ANALYSIS TO MAKE SURE THAT ANYTHING THAT WAS ADDED IN HERE TO THE STATE CODE.
NONE OF THESE SECTIONS EXIST IN CURRENT ORDINANCE.
THIS IS, UH, PERTAINING TO 2.3 TRANSITIONAL PROVISIONS.
UM, ALRIGHT, TWO YOUR COMMENTS THERE, UH, MR. NEIL ON 2.2 0.88, THAT WAS, WERE HAVE WE, HAVE WE COVERED THOSE ALREADY? NO.
WHAT I WAS, WHEN I READ THE ORIGINAL SECTION THAT HAD TO DO THAT, I, I, AGAIN, I READ OVER IT SEVERAL TIMES AND I, AND I COULDN'T QUITE FOLLOW IT.
AND SO I WAS JUST SUGGESTING A, UM, SLIGHT REWRITE TO IT.
UM, THIS HAS AN A, B, C, AND THAT WAS MY SUGGEST IN ENGLISH.
ENGLISH AS OPPOSED TO IN LEGAL USE.
PARDON? IN ENGLISH AS OPPOSED TO IT'S A, A LITTLE BIT MORE IN ENGLISH.
I, MY, MY LITTLE BRAIN COULDN'T WRAP MY HEAD AROUND THE LANGUAGES AND UNDERSTAND IT.
SO I WAS TRYING TO CLARIFY, AND THIS WAS BASED ON THIS RESEARCH, SOME IN OTHER TOWNS AND WHAT THEY WERE USING.
AND, AND THAT WAS MY SUGGESTION.
SO IT WAS KIND OF SUGGESTION TO YOU GUYS.
ONE OF THE REASONS I WANTED TO SEND IN ADVANCE SO IT WASN'T SPRINGING ON YOU.
SO HOW DOES THAT GRAB YOU, MRS. UH, WELL, IF I MAY, UH, STAFF WRESTLED WITH THIS QUITE A BIT YESTERDAY AND, AND I THINK, I THINK JOHN'S PREPARED TO, RIGHT? SO OFFER COMMENTS.
WE, WE LOOKED AT, UH, COMMISSIONER NEIL'S COMMENTS.
SO WE, WE, WE LOOKED AT THIS PART OF THE CODE AND TRIED TO CLARIFY SOME, UH, LANGUAGE HERE.
UH, SO WE'RE, UH, WE WOULD SUGGEST THAT WE WOULD CHANGE DIMENSIONS HERE UNLESS THE BOUNDARY LINES ARE FIXED BY DIMENSIONS.
WE WOULD, UH, USE MEETS AND BOUNDS.
THAT'S THE PROPER TERMINOLOGY FOR, UH, THE COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA FOR DESCRIBING PROPERTIES.
WE'RE NOT, UH, LIKE THE STATES OUT WEST AND LAND GRANT STATES AS FAR AS, UH, SECTIONS AND EVERYTHING.
SO INSTEAD OF DOING DIMENSIONS, WE WILL CHANGE THAT TO MEETS AND BOUNDS.
THAT'S THE 13 ORIGINAL COLONIES.
THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE BASED ON, RIGHT? FOR SURVEYING WISE.
SO WE WOULD CHANGE THAT TO MEETS AND BOUNDS HERE.
UH, SO THAT IS A LITTLE BIT MORE CLEARER THEN.
UH, WE'D ALSO, UH, BASICALLY WHEN WE LOOK AT THIS HERE, WE DO HAVE SOME RAILROAD TRACKS THAT YOU FIND THE ZONING DISTRICTS HERE IN TOWN.
UH, RAILROAD TRACKS, UH, UH, IS THE MATHEMATICS FOR FORMING RAILROAD TRACKS IS DIFFERENT THAN HIGHWAYS.
[01:15:01]
RAILROAD HAS THEIR OWN, UH, CONCENTRIC OF FORMULATION FOR MATHEMATICS ON RAILROAD TRACKS, UNLIKE HIGHWAYS.UH, SO THOSE LINES THAT DEPART THESE, WHETHER IT'S A CENTER LINE OF A STREET, A HIGHWAY, AN ALLEY, OR A RAILROAD TRACK, MM-HMM.
YOU SHOULD COME OFF AT RIGHT ANGLES TO THE MAIN OR THE CENTER LINE, RIGHT ANGLES.
BUT WHEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH A RAILROAD TRACK OR HIGHWAY, YOU'RE IN A CURVE.
SO THOSE WILL COME OFF OF RADIAL TO THE CENTER LINE AND NOT AT A RIGHT ANGLE.
SO WE WILL CLARIFY THIS A LITTLE BIT BETTER, ADD SOME MORE GEOMETRIC TERMINOLOGY HERE BASED ON BOUNDARIES TO CLARIFY THIS HERE.
SO WE DO NEED THEM, UH, MOST, IF YOU LOOK AT MOST STREETS AND LOCKS, UH, THAT'S THE REASON THAT YOU DO COME OFF OF MOST STREETS AT A RIGHT ANGLE TO SET THE PROPERTY LINE.
SO WE'LL SET THE BOUNDARY OF THESE DISTRICTS WITH THE RIGHT ANGLE, OR IF THEY'RE IN SOME TYPE OF CURVE, UH, THEY'LL COME OFF RADIAL FOR THAT.
IF THE BOUNDARY IS NOT FIXED, UH, WE PROBABLY, I WOULD ASSUME WE WOULD NOT HAVE THIS CASE, BUT IT MAY ARISE.
SO THAT'S WHY THE TERMINOLOGY IS IN THERE.
WE DO HAVE, YOU KNOW, THE, THE TOWN HAS BEEN MAPPED AND SURVEYED, UH, BUT UH, YOU MAY HAVE SOME OUTLYING AREAS THAT WE DON'T HAVE A FIXED, UH, BOUNDARY THERE.
SO THIS IS WHAT THIS CONDITION IS ONLY FOR THOSE THAT DOES NOT HAVE A FIXED MEETS AND BOUND SURVEY ON IT.
UM, SAME WAY WITH THE, THE, THE RIVER.
UH, WE DO, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY WE BORDERED A RIVER.
SOME OF THOSE, UH, PART OUR DISTRICT BOUNDARIES TO THE CENTER LINE.
SO HOW YOU LEAVE THOSE IS COVERED ON THIS PART OF THE CODE.
UM, SO THOSE ARE A COUPLE THINGS THAT WE DID LOOK AT.
UH, WE WILL, UH, MAKE THOSE AMENDMENTS TO YOU PRIOR TO THE, UH, NOVEMBER 20TH MEETING.
WE CAN GO OVER THOSE AGAIN, UM, WITH THAT, UH, WORK SESSION ON THE 20TH WHERE WE'LL AMEND THAT CODE.
WE DISCUSSED THIS AT A GREAT LENGTH YESTERDAY.
I TOOK ACCOUNT, UH, CHAIRMAN'S, UH, NEIL'S COMMENTS.
UM, AND I'M ASSUMING YOU GOT THOSE FROM ANOTHER JURISDICTION? YES.
ALL A COUPLE WORDS WERE CHANGED, BUT YES.
SO WE KIND OF LOOK AT SEVERAL DIFFERENT, DIFFERENT EXAMPLES AT DIFFERENT PLACES SAYING, TRYING TO FIND MORE CLARITY.
SO WE WOULD CHANGE LINE 85 TO JUST SAY UNLESS DISTRICT BOUNDARY LINES ARE FIXED BY MEETS AND DOWNS OR OTHERWISE, CODE WAS SHOWN, DESCRIBED THEN DOWN AT LINE 90, WE WOULD SAY LINES, UM, AT RIGHT ANGLES OR RADIAL LINES TO OTHER CENTER LINES SHALL BE CONSTRUED SUCH BOUNDARIES, PERIOD.
AND THEN GET RID OF THE, AS THE CASE MAY BE, THAT'S UNNECESSARY IN WHICH THERE, UM, AND THAT WILL ACTUALLY CLEAR IT UP.
AT LEAST WHEN WE'RE GOING THROUGH AND INTERPRETING THIS.
SO, LIKE JOHN SAID, YOU COULD POTENTIALLY HAVE THIS PROBLEM LIKE ALONG HAPPY CREEK WHERE THE MM-HMM.
AND THEN, UM, OR HEP CREEK ROAD AND THEN ACTUAL HAPPY CREEK ITSELF WHERE THE PROPERTY BOUNDARY TERMINATED THE CENTER OF THE, THE CREEK AND, YOU KNOW, CREEKS, MEANDER, AND THEN THEREFORE THE PROPERTY LINES WILL MEANDER.
THANKS FOR TAKING CONSIDERATION.
WE LOOKED INTO THIS AT A GREAT LENGTH YESTERDAY.
I SPENT A LOT OF TIME WITH GEORGE.
I WERE YOU CUSSING AT HIM
WE JUST, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO, UH, SO WE DON'T HAVE TO INTERPRET IT, EXPLAINED A LITTLE BIT MORE IN DETAIL.
WHAT OVER HERE NEXT 2.28, ANYTHING? I DON'T MEAN TO DOMINATE ANYBODY ANYTHING.
2.2 0.9, UH, I THINK, DID YOU HAVE OTHER COMMENTS? YEAH.
IN THAT AREA? YEAH, THE TWO, JUST 2.2 0.8 THERE.
INTERPRETATE, UM, LINE 92 OR HAD, NOW IT'S ONE KEEP GOING DOWN.
UH, DISTRICT COUNTY FOLLOW RIVER CREEK BRANCH OR THE BODY WATER SAID BODY SHALL BE CONSTRUED TO FOLLOW THE CENTER LINE AT LOW ORDER VALUE OR LIMITS OF JURISDICTION AND EVENT A CHANGE.
SHORELINE IS WHERE SHORELINE, WHAT I KEYED ON SUCH PROPERTY WOULD BE CONSTRUED IS MOVING THE ACTUAL SHORELINE.
AND I'M JUST WONDERING IF THAT, UH, HAS CHANGED BECAUSE HOW OLD THIS WAS BACK IN THE DAYS BETWEEN EPS, POSSIBLY THIS FORM, TYPICALLY SURVEY, WHAT LINE IS THAT ON NINE TWO? YEAH.
[01:20:01]
LET'S SEE HERE.AND I JUST, JUST WONDERING IF THAT'S STILL WRONG OR SHOULD WE JUST USE GPS? WELL, RIGHT, SO THERE THERE IS A, THERE IS A, IF YOU WANT SAY A MADNESS, HOW DO THEY DETERMINE CENTER LINES OF WATER BODIES? SO, UM, BUT RIVER SHIFT COURSES, CREEK SHIFT COURSES, AND THEN I'VE BEEN INVOLVED WHERE THERE'S BEEN PROBLEMS WHEN THAT OCCURRED AND, AND, AND NOW SOMEONE DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO SOMETHING BECAUSE OF RIVER SHIFTED COURSES.
SO THAT, THAT'S WHERE I'M, I'M PULLING THIS OUT OF A OKAY.
A PROBLEM I RAN INTO IN MY PAST.
SO GENERALLY STATED, THERE IS A METHOD BY DETERMINE, DETERMINE IF YOU'RE DOING A MEETS AND DOWNS SURVEY AND YOU DO ENCOUNTER A WATER BODY, THERE IS PROVISIONS IN THE STATE HOW THAT, UH, DESCRIPTION OR HOW THAT IS GONNA BE DETERMINED AS FAR AS THE LEGAL PART OF SURVEYING AND MAPPING THAT.
UH, SO THAT IS HOW THIS HAS BEEN PUT IN HERE BASED ON THE COMMONWEALTH HERE IN VIRGINIA FOR WHEN YOU DO HAVE A WATER BODY, UH, REGARDLESS OF YOU NEW, USING NEW MAPPING OR GPS SYSTEM OR WHATEVER, UH, WHEN YOU DETERMINE THESE BOUNDARIES, UH, THE STATE HAS AUTHORITY TELL YOU HOW TO DETERMINE THAT.
SO THAT'S HOW THIS LANGUAGE IS PUT IN.
REGARDLESS IF YOU'RE USING GPS OR WHATEVER, THERE ISN'T, AND THE SURVEYOR'S GONNA STAMP HIS SEAL TO THAT.
SO IF THE RIVER SHIFTED COURSE, YOU POTENTIALLY LOSE OR GAIN LAND FROM ONE OF THE OWNER, RIGHT? BECAUSE YOU, THE MAPPING HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE ON A MEETS AND BOUND DETERMINE THE CENTER LINE OF THE STREAM BY THE STREAM ITSELF.
SO SURVEYOR WILL, THAT'S THE OPPOSITE WHAT I'VE DEALT WITH BEFORE.
SO THEN WHEN SOMETHING ON LIKE A PROPERTY WHERE THIS IS AN ISSUE COMES TO OUR DEPARTMENT, WE'RE GONNA LOOK AND MAKE SURE THAT THAT SURVEY IS THEN SIGNED, UNDERSTAND BY A SURVEY.
OUR AREA IS HERE WHEREVER YOU, YOU KNOW, VIRGINIA'S ALWAYS AS IT IS, YOU KNOW, THESE PARCEL ALREADY BEEN SURVEYED AND HAVE BEEN MAPPED OUT.
PREVIOUSLY, UH, SO, SO THERE'S A METHODOLOGY BEHIND IT.
I JUST, IT WAS THIS OLD THING GPS NOW.
AND YOU KNOW, YOU NO LONGER, IT'S LIKE THE OLD SURVEYORS LOOKING FOR A MARK ON THE TREE, YOU KNOW? OH, THERE IT IS.
SO, BUT THERE'S A PROCESS FOR THEM TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER WHAT THEY HOLD AND WHAT THEY DON'T.
YOU MAY FIND THAT IN OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY THAT THIS WOULD COME INTO PLAY AND DETERMINE WATER BOUNDARIES.
TO, SO THAT'S WHAT, THAT'S WHAT THE STATE, THE STATE LAW IS.
IS THAT ANY VIOLATION OF THE PREVIOUS ZONING? YEAH, I WAS SUGGESTING I A COUPLE WORDS TO THAT.
SO I'LL ADDRESS THAT ONE IF I MAY PLEASE.
SO THE PREMISE OF THAT SECTION IS THAT YOU HAVE AN, AN EXISTING VIOLATION PRIOR TO THE AMENDMENT OF THE ORDINANCE.
IF YOU HAD A VARIANCE OR WAIVER, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE A VIOLATION.
SO I I I, I THINK IT'S PLS SURPLUS LANGUAGE TO ADD THAT AGAIN, THE PREMISE IS YOU, YOU ALREADY HAVE, YOU HAVE A VIOLATION, ALREADY HAVE A VIOLATION AND A VIOLATION ALREADY EXISTS.
OKAY, TO POINT, UH, LET'S GO THROUGH 2.3, 0.3 COMPLETE THE APPLICATION.
ANYBODY HAVE ANY COMMENTS ON THAT? YEAH.
SO, UM, IN, UH, IN D WHERE WE REFERENCE, UH, 4.1 0.1 AND THEN IT SAYS THAT, YOU KNOW, OH, IN, IN 2.3 HERE, YEAH.
THE ZONING PERMIT SHALL BECOME INVALID IF THE AUTHORIZED WORK IS NOT COMMENCED WITHIN ONE YEAR OF ITS ISSUANCE.
HOWEVER, AND MAYBE I'M JUMPING THE GUN, BUT 4.1 0.5 SAYS IT HAS TO BE COMPLETED WITHIN A YEAR.
SO IS IT COMMENCED OR COMPLETED? WE'LL NEED TO TIGHTEN THAT UP.
WHAT, UH, WHICH LINE ARE YOU ON? ONE POINT? I, I HAVE NO IDEA.
IT WAS COMMENCED WITHIN ONE YEAR.
UH, AND THEN, UM, BUT THEN 4.1 0.5 SEEMS TO DISAGREE WITH THAT.
AND LIKE I SAID, MAYBE I'M JUMPING THE GUN HERE, BUT SUCH CONSTRUCTION MUST COMMENCE WITHIN 30 DAYS AFTER THIS CHAPTER BECOMES EFFECTIVE AND BE COMPLETED WITHIN A PERIOD OF ONE YEAR.
THIS IS FOR REZONING AND WITH PROFFERS AND OKAY.
SO THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY RELATED.
FOUR MAY BE, MAY NOT BE THE REZONING
[01:25:01]
BECAUSE I, I DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S THE REZONING SECTION.IT'S UH, YEAH, EFFECTS ON PERMITS.
IT PERMITS ISSUES PRIOR TO ADOPTION.
SO IT'S JUST, UM, 1.4 FOUNDATION LOCATION OF 4 1 5 EFFECT ON PERMITS ISSUES PRIOR TO ADOPTION THAT PRIOR TO ADOPTION, THESE CHANGES THAT STATE.
SO THIS IS WITH JUST THE, OUR GENERAL ZONING PERMITS.
WHEREAS THIS IS PERTAINING TO REZONINGS.
ANYTHING ELSE ON TWO POINTS, 2.4 NONCONFORMING USES AS TEACHERS, 2.4 0.1 CONTINUATION.
SO STAFF HAS SOME SUGGESTIONS HERE.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU GUYS WANT DISCUSS THOSE REAL QUICK.
LET'S HEAR FROM YOU FIRST AND THEN WE CAN, OKAY.
SO UNDER NON-CONFORMING USES AND FEATURES, UM, WHAT'S THE SECTION NUMBER? SO IF YOU GET TO, IT'S 2.4 0.3 WHERE WE TALK ABOUT DISCONTINUING.
AND SO THIS IS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM OUR CURRENT ZONING ORDINANCE.
UM, ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT WE HAVE, AND JOHN CAN PROBABLY SPEAK A LITTLE BIT TO THIS TOO.
EARLIER THIS YEAR WE MADE A PRESENTATION TO TOWN COUNCIL ABOUT DERELICT STRUCTURES.
ONE OF THE TAKEAWAYS FROM ALL THAT RESEARCH AND PREPARATION FOR THAT PRESENTATION WAS THAT THERE ARE SECTIONS OF TOWN CODE, SPECIFICALLY TOWN CODE CHAPTER NINE THAT SHOULD BE REPEALED.
THEY WERE NOT ADOPTED IN THEIR ENTIRETY.
THIS SECTION OF THE ZONING ORDINANCE REFERENCES A SECTION OF TOWN CODE THAT STAFF STILL BELIEVES NEEDS TO BE REPEALED.
SO IN THIS INSTANCE, WE'RE ASKING THAT THIS BE STRICKEN FROM THE ZONING ORDINANCE TO HELP CLEAN IT UP THE WHOLE SECTION 2.4 0.3.
SO UNDER 2.4 0.3, IT REFERENCES A CHAPTER OF TOWN CODE.
THAT WE CAN'T ENFORCE THE RIGHT WORD.
IT WAS NOT ADOPTED IN ITS ENTIRETY.
THAT'S THE, YOU WANNA SAY THAT LAST SENTENCE? YOU MEAN THAT'S THE, OKAY.
SO WE WOULD STRIKE STARTING ON, UH, LINE 1 72.
HOWEVER, THE TOWN COUNCIL MAY APPROVE A SPECIAL USE PERMIT USE TO BE REINSTATED AND CONTINUED IF CONSTRUCTION WAS DECLARED LIGHTED BY TOWN COUNCIL.
AND A SPOT FLIGHT ABATEMENT PLAN WAS APPROVED BY THE TOWN MANAGER.
SO THAT PROGRAM IS NOT, IT WAS ON ADOPTED IN ITS ENTIRETY AND THAT'S NOT THE INTENDED USE PER STATE CODE, HOW WE PUT IT INTO OUR CODE.
AND WE HAVE LIKE FOUR OTHER MECHANISMS IN WHICH WE'RE GOING AFTER RELIFT STRUCTURES.
YOU LATER ON WHERE THOSE MECHANISMS TOO FOR
AND WE HAD A, ON THE TOWN WEBSITE, IT WAS MARCH, I THINK IT WAS MARCH, IF YOU WATCH THE TOWN COUNCIL WORK SESSION FROM MARCH, LIKE AN HOUR LONG PRESENTATION THAT WE GAVE ON DERELICT STRUCTURES.
AND THERE'S, I THINK, I BELIEVE WE HAVE FOUR DIFFERENT MECHANISMS THAT WE'RE ABLE TO USE 2 24 0.4 PARKING AND REUSE OF EXISTING PROPERTY.
SO WITH THIS EXEMPTION, THIS, THIS IS HOW YOU, WE HAD SOME ISSUES WITH THE, THE VFW SITE.
SO THE INITIAL THOUGHT ON THE SIDE OF THE APPLICANT IS, OKAY, WELL WE'RE REUSING THE PROPERTY, BUT YOU'RE NOT COMING IN WITH THE SAME USE THAT WAS EXISTING THERE.
SO WHEN WE SAY REUSE IT IS BASICALLY THE SAME USE.
SO IF THEY HAD COME IN AND SAID, OKAY, WE'RE GONNA BE DOING THE RESTAURANT HERE, WHICH IS WHAT THAT PREVIOUS WAS, THEY WOULD'VE, THIS PARKING ASSUMPTION WOULD'VE FIT, BUT BECAUSE THEY WERE CHANGING THE USE OF NO LONGER HEALTH.
BUT THIS SECTION PERTAINS TO INSTANCES WHERE YOU HAVE A NON-CONFORMING, UH, USE THAT DOES NOT FIT OUR ZONING ORDINANCE.
IT DOESN'T MEET OUR REQUIREMENTS.
HOWEVER, BECAUSE IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THAT IT ALLOWED TO BASICALLY CONTINUE.
[01:30:01]
SO THIS WOULD ALLOW IT BASICALLY CONTINUE YEARS.SO IF SPRING CENTER GARDEN CENTER GETS BOUGHT BY SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO HAVE A NURSERY, THAT'S COOL.
IF THEY DON'T, IF IF THEY'RE NONCONFORMING USE THERE AND THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PARKING AND THEY'RE REUSING IT, BUT IT'S WITHIN A TWO YEAR PERIOD, THAT'S THE CAVEAT.
AS LONG AS THE USE ISN'T ABANDONED.
THEY HAVE GETS AND THEY HAVE TO HAVE A, THEN IF IT GOES BY, SOMEBODY GETS BOUGHT BY SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO SCHOOL, THEN THEY START, THEN THEY HAVE TO BE IN COMPLIANCE.
WELL I KNOW, I KNOW CHANGE OF USE OR ANYBODY IS INTERESTED IN BUYING.
SO WE DO HAVE THE DISCONTINUANCE, IF THE USE IS THERE BECAUSE THEY CLOSED WHAT ABOUT A YEAR AGO AND THEY DISCONTINUE THAT USE MORE THAN TWO YEARS, THAT GETS BROUGHT UP QUITE REGULAR PLANNING COMMISSION.
SO THAT USE DISCONTINUED FOR A PERIOD OF TWO YEARS.
OUR, THE TOWN CODE SAYS THAT USE HAS BEEN ABANDONED.
THEN THAT CANNOT BE REINSTATED EXCEPT FOR SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
THAT IS A GREAT LOSS OF COMMUNITY PROVIDED THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS ARE MET.
EVERYBODY COOL WITH THAT ZONING PERMIT WAS PREVIOUSLY ISSUED BY THE TOWN ON THE PROPERTY.
VERY BUSINESS, COMMERCIAL, OR INDUSTRIAL USE MAY REQUIRE SITE IMPROVEMENTS, BUT A SPECIAL USE PERMIT IS REQUIRED.
THE NUMBER OF EXISTING PARKING SPACES SHALL NOT BE REDUCED OR DISPLAY OR OTHER PURPOSES, ETC.
WHEN PARKING AREAS AND DISPAIR NECESSARILY REQUIRED.
WITH THAT, POTENTIALLY WHAT COMES IN, IF SOMEONE WANTS TO REUSE THE PARKING LOT AND THE BUSINESS HAS BEEN THERE FOR, WE'LL SAY 20 YEARS, AND THEY COME IN FOR A BUSINESS LICENSE TO SELL IT, TO USE FOR THE SAME TYPE OF BUSINESS.
IF THE PARKING LOT IS IN SUCH WHERE YOU CANNOT DEFINE THE PARKING SPACES ESSENTIALLY, THEN WE COULD REQUIRE THEM TO RES STRIKE THE PARKING LOT, NOT A BURDEN TO THE PUBLIC OR TO THE BUSINESS.
WE SHOULD BREAK 2.4, 0.5 NONCONFORMING LOTS OF RECORD.
DO YOU HAVE PROPOSED CHANGES HERE? I WOULD THINK THAT I MAY HAVE A QUESTION OR TWO.
UM, MAY ISSUE, UH, THAT'S A MAY NOT A WHERE ARE YOU AT? UH, I AM ON 2.4 0.5.
THE FIRST INSET A ONE DO NOT HAVE LINE NUMBERS ON MINE.
THE ADMINISTRATOR MAY, MAY ISSUE YOU AN ADMINISTRATIVE VARIANCE UP TO 20% OF THE REQUIRED LOT WIDTH OR AREA WHERE IT IS FOUND THAT PROPOSED NEW CONSTRUCTION IS CONSISTENT WITH THE STRUCTURE, SIZE ORIENTATION PATTERN DEVELOPMENT ON THE STREET.
IS THAT A MAY OR A MUST? THAT'S A, SO IT'S DISCRETION, IT'S DISCRETIONARY, BUT OKAY.
IT'S CONSTRAINED BY THE REMAINDER OF THAT SENTENCE.
THE EXERCISE OF THAT DISCRETION HAS TO BE WITHIN THOSE PARAMETERS.
IT'S NOT A FREE FOR ALL, UH, TWO LOCKED WITH AN AREA OR LOT WIDTH WITH LESS THAN 80% OF THE MINIMUM REQUIRED APPROVAL FOR CONSTRUCTION MAY BE GRANTED BY SPECIAL USE PERMIT BY THE TOWN COUNCIL, BY THEM DIRECTLY OR IT GOES TO THE USUAL PROCEDURES THROUGH THE PLANNING COMMISSION OR THE PLANNING AND ZONING ADMINISTRATOR.
OR DOES THAT NEED TO BE SPECIFIED? SPECIAL USE PERMIT BY TOWN COUNCIL WOULD MEAN THAT IT WOULD HAVE TO FOLLOW THE SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
SO PLANNING COMMISSION, IT AUTOMATICALLY BECOMES THE C.
SO THAT'S NOT, THAT'S VERY CREDIBLE.
UH, A, UH, THE PROPOSED STRUCTURE HAS A FINISHED FLOOR AREA, BUT THAT LESS THAN 90% OF THE AMOUNT OF THE FINISHED FLOOR AREA PREVALENT IN COMPARATIVE HOMES.
HOW ARE COMPARATIVE HOMES DEFINED? SO I WOULD INTERPRET THAT AS, UM, JUST SIMILAR HOMES WITHIN THE NEIGHBORHOOD.
I WOULD LOOK AT WHAT'S AROUND IT, IMMEDIATELY AROUND IT AND USE THAT FOR COMPARISON.
IS THAT IN THE CODE OF DEFINITIONS AT THE BACK? WHEREVER WE HAVE DEFINITION? NO, WE DO NOT DEFINE COMPARATIVE HOMES.
DO WE NEED TO, UM, GIVE ME A SECOND.
I THINK IT SAYS ON THE NUMBER THREE FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS SECTION, COMPARATIVE HOME SHALL MEAN CHARACTERISTICS.
I WAS GONNA SAY SHOWED I KNEW IT WAS IN HERE SOMEWHERE ELSE.
[01:35:01]
ARABIC AL THREE COVERS IT.FINISHED FLOOR AREAS DO NOT INCLUDE BASEMENT AREAS.
EVEN IF THEY'RE FINISHED, EVEN IF THEY'RE, EVEN IF THE BASEMENT AREA IS FINISHED, IT'S NOT COUNTED THE FINISHED FLOOR AREA.
UM, WHERE ARE YOU AT? LOWERCASE A? IT'S LINE 2 0 6 1.
AND WHAT'S YOUR QUESTION? SORRY.
FINISHED FLOOR AREAS DO NOT INCLUDE BASEMENT AREAS.
I DON'T THINK BASINS TYPICALLY THEY, THEY COUNTED, YEAH, THEY COUNTED EVEN IF THEY'RE FINISHED.
ALRIGHT, ANYTHING ELSE ON PAGE NINE? ANYBODY? SO THIS ONLY APPLIES TO THE R ONE.
THAT ONLY APPLIES TO THE R ONE DISTRICT, SINGLE FAMILY ONLY.
LET'S SEE, IS THAT 2.2? I HAVE SOMETHING ON 2.4 0.54 D.
YES, THAT'S THE RIGHT YOU ON THE RIGHT PLACE WHERE WE ARE.
IF ANY NON-CONFORMING LAW, THE RECORD CONTAINS CONFORMING USE AND OR STRUCTURE.
SUCH USE AND OR STRUCTURE MAY BE REPLACED IN THE AREA OF PREEXISTING USE AND OR STRUCTURE SHOULD DAMAGE DESTRUCTION OCCUR, EXPANSION INSTEAD OF USE AND OR STRUCTURE MAY OCCUR WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THIS CHAPTER.
UH, I, I COULDN'T RECONCILE WHAT THAT REALLY MATTER.
UM, SO THAT CAME FROM OURS CURRENTLY.
UM, I MEAN I THINK THAT BRINGS INTO PLAY SETBACK.
UM, ANYWAY, I, I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S AT PLAY WITH THAT.
JOHN, I'M JUST WONDERING IF THIS NEEDS TO BE REORDERED.
IT SOUNDS LIKE WHAT IT'S SAYING IS IF THE LOT OVERALL IS NONCONFORMING, BUT THE STRUCTURE IS CONFORMING AND SOMETHING HAPPENS TO THAT STRUCTURE, IT CAN BE REBUILT WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT IT.
SO YOU HAVE A, THE LOT'S NOT THE RIGHT, IT'S A NON-CONFORMING LOT.
SO LOT IS NOT TO WORK STANDARD.
WE'LL JUST SAY THE LOT IS TOO SMALL BASED ON THE AREA REQUIREMENTS, BUT YOU HAVE A STRUCTURE THERE THAT CONFORMS TO THE SETBACKS AND THE USE IS APPROPRIATE.
SO THE LOT IS TOO SMALL, BUT THE STRUCTURE IS IN, FITS IN THE BUILDING ENVELOPE OR THE SETBACKS AND THE USE IS APPROPRIATE FOR THAT.
UM, THE STRUCTURE MAY BE DELAYED, REPLACED IN THE AREA AT THE SAME LOCATION BASICALLY IF IT IS DAMAGED OR IF IT WAS DESTROYED.
SO YOU COULD TAKE THAT SAME BUILDING AND PUT BACK IN THAT SAME FOOTPRINT, EVEN THOUGH THE LOT IS NONCONFORMING.
SO THE BASELINE IS YOU CAN'T BUILD ON A NONCONFORMING LOT.
OKAY, UH, AT THE END OF, AT THE END OF CHARLES STREET, AT THE NORTH END OF CHARLES STREET, WHERE THE OLD MCCLAIN UH, DAIRY IS, THE OLD MILKING BOUND BARN IS LIKE RIGHT ON THE STREET.
I MEAN, YOU OPEN THE DOOR AND YOU'RE ON THE STREET AND THAT IS NOW RESIDENTIAL.
I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S A SEPARATE LOT OR IF IT'S PART OF THE PROPERTY, BUT, AND IT IS ON, IT IS ON THE STREET.
I MEAN THERE'S A FOOT BETWEEN THE, THE BRICK OF THE STONE ACTUALLY AND THE STREET.
SO IF THAT GETS KNOCKED DOWN, BE REBUILT OR IS WHAT STRUCTURE HAS TO BE CONFORMING.
WELL, SO IT SOUNDS LIKE TO ME, IF YOU'RE SAYING THAT THE BUILDINGS THE DOOR OPENS ON THE SIDEWALK, THAT WOULD PROBABLY TELL ME THAT IT'S A NON-CONFORMING STRUCTURE.
SO THE STRUCTURE IS TOO CLOSE TO THE PROPERTY LINE OR ACROSS THE SETBACK LINE.
SO THAT WOULD NOT COME INTO PLAY HERE.
SO IF SOME 18 WHEELER KNOCKED IT DOWN, THEY COULD NOT REBUILD IT.
WELL YOU POTENTIALLY HAVE HYPOTHE SPECIAL USE BECAUSE RIGHT.
LET'S START HYPOTHETICAL INSTEAD OF ACTUAL.
[01:40:01]
WELL, OKAY, SO THAT'S ONE.THE LOT HAS TO BE NON-CONFORMING.
YEAH, THAT CERTAINLY THEN THE STRUCTURE IS CONFORMING.
BUT THE NEXT SECTION ALSO STARTS TO DEAL WITH REPLACEMENT REMOVAL REPAIR RECONSTRUCTION.
AND THAT'S THE NON-CONFORMING USES.
SO WE HAVE THE NON-CONFORMING LOTS.
THAT'S THE SECTION THAT WE ARE IN.
AND THEN THE NEXT ONE MOVES ON TO THE NON-CONFORMING USES INVESTIGATION.
COULD TAKE YOU BACK TO D JUST FOR A MINUTE.
THE SAID USE AND OR STRUCTURE MAY OCCUR WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THIS CHAPTER.
SO THEY, THAT WOULD BE, YOU WOULD HAVE A NON-CONFORMING LOT.
BASED ON THE, THE, THE ZONING DISTRICT, THE STRUCTURE THAT SETS THERE NEEDS THE SETBACKS.
AND THE USE IS A USE FOR THAT ZONING DISTRICT.
BUT THIS IS SAYING HERE YOU CAN EXPAND THE STRUCTURE.
BUILD IT BIGGER AS LONG AS IT NEEDS TO SET BACK REQUIREMENTS.
YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN, WE'LL JUST SAY YOU CAN LENGTHEN THE BUILDING BACKWARDS BECAUSE IT HAS THE DISTANCE BACK TO THE REAR PROPERTY LINE.
YOU CAN EXPAND THE BUILDING AS LONG AS IT NEEDS THE SETBACKS.
AND, AND, UH, I, I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.
BUT IF A READER IS HERE TRYING TO READ THIS TO INTERPRET WHAT IT IS, AND HE'S TOLD THAT THE, THE STRUCTURE MAY OCCUR WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THIS CHAPTER.
WOULD THEY UNDERSTAND, WITHOUT YOU STANDING HERE EXPLAINING, JUST SAY SUBJECT ZONE? WELL, IT, IT WOULD BE THE CHAPTER OF 1 75.
WHICH IS THE ZONING ORDINANCE.
THE ZONING ORDINANCE, ALL THE CHAPTERS.
C ONE, C TWO, R ONE, R TWO, R THREE.
JUST SOUNDS LIKE THE ENTIRE ZONING ORDINANCE.
IT WOULD BE, I KNOW IT WOULD GUARANTEE SOMEONE COME INTO YOUR OFFICE SAYING WHAT
BUT YOU SEE WHERE I WAS GETTING YEAH.
WHEN IT REFERS TO THIS CHAPTER, IT'S THE ENTIRE CHAPTER, ENTIRE TOWN CHAPTER 1 75.
SO LIKE ASKING WHERE DO I BUY BUTTER? AND YOU GIVE THE MAP BEFORE ROYAL, YOU KNOW, YOU SHARE IT.
WHAT IS THE, WHAT IS THE IMPORTANT IN THE MEANING OF THAT PARAGRAPH C JUST ABOVE THAT D WERE YOU LOOKING AT IN THE, IN ANY, THIS ONE, IN ANY COMMERCIAL INDUSTRIAL DISTRICT DISTRICT, A PERMITTED STRUCTURE MAY BE ERECTED ON ANY SINGLE LOT OF RECORD AT THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF ADOPTION OR AMENDMENT OF THIS CHAPTER.
NOTWITHSTANDING LIMITATIONS IMPOSED BY THE PROVISIONS OF THIS CHAPTER, THIS PROVISION SHALL APPLY EVEN THOUGH SUCH LOT FAILS TO MEET THE REQUIREMENTS FOR LOT AREA LOT WIDTH THAT ARE GENERALLY APPLICABLE IN THE DISTRICT PROVIDED THAT ARE TO MENTION SHALL PERFORM REGULATIONS.
THIS IS JUST SAYING THAT IF, UM, IN THE COMMERCIAL INDUSTRIAL DISTRICT, UM, YOU CAN PUT UP A STRUCTURE ON BASICALLY THE LAW THAT'S TOO SMALL OR DOESN'T FIT OUR STANDARDS AS LONG AS THEY CAN MEET THE SETBACKS.
SO THAT'S COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL, BUT YEP.
AND THEN THE OTHERS DEAL WITH THE RESIDENTIAL.
SO THESE STATEMENTS COVER ALL OF THE ZONES.
SO BECAUSE I THOUGHT WE SWITCHED FROM ONE, NOW WE TALKING.
THE REST OF THEM REFER TO RESIDENTIAL.
UM, SO THEN WHEN WE GET DOWN TO 2.4 0.7 MM-HMM.
WHEN WE GET TO 2.4 0.8, WE WANNA REMOVE THOSE REFERENCES AGAIN.
AND THERE'S THREE INSTANCES WHERE WE WOULD LIKE TO REMOVE THEM HERE.
SO LET'S GO THROUGH THAT AND DELETE NECESSARY LAND.
SO FOR US IT'S STARTING AT LINE 2 61.
UM, THAT SECTION A WOULD STATE THAT IF A NON-PERFORMING USE OF LAND IS DAMAGED OR DESTROYED, SUCH USE MAY BE REPLACED TO THE EXTENT TO WHICH IT EXISTED PRIOR TO SET DAMAGE OR DESTRUCTION, REMOVAL OR DESTRUCTION OF A BUILDING OR STRUCTURE IN WHICH THE NON-CONFORMING USE IS LOCATED SHALL ELIMINATE THE USE WHICH THE STRUCTURE OF BUILDING WAS USED OR NON-CONFORMING USE PERIOD ENDED THERE.
AND THEN REMOVE THE REST OF THAT.
SECTION A, SO THE SENTENCE, SINCE I DON'T HAVE THIS, THE LINE NUMBERS, THE SENTENCE HOWEVER THE TOWN COUNCIL MAY APPROVE SPECIMENS PERMIT.
SO TWO POINT, SHE'S ON THE NEXT YEAH, JOHN'S PULLING IT UP.
I WAS STILL STUCK ON, I WAS STILL STUCK ON 9 9 3 0 3 AND 2.7 0.7 2.4 0.7.
THAT'S WHERE I WAS, THAT THAT'S, THAT'S THE NINE DASH 3 0 3 3 LINES FROM THE BOTTOM THERE.
2.4 0.7, I GUESS THAT'S LINE 2 48.
[01:45:01]
IF YOU HAVE A, A NON-CONFORMING USE BUILDING OR, UH, A NON-CONFORMING USE, THE BUILDING OR STRUCTURE SHALL NOT BE EN LARGE INCREASE OR EXTENDED TO OCCUPY A GREATER AREA OF LAND.UH, UNLESS SUCH EXPANSION CONFORMS REQUIREMENTS TO THIS CHAPTER.
THAT'S WHAT THAT'S SO WE'RE GOING ASK TO STRIKE THIS PART OF THE OKAY.
SO ELIMINATE THAT SECOND SENTENCE.
AND THAT'S ONLY AGAIN WITH A SPECIAL USE PERMIT FOR THAT ONE THERE? CORRECT.
THE NEXT TIME WE RAN INTO CHAPTER 9, 3 0 3 WAS 2.4 0.8 SECTION C MM-HMM.
AND IS THAT ANOTHER WHOLE SENTENCE TO GO? YEP.
SO PART OF THAT TOWN CODE 9 0 3 0 3 IS ENFORCEMENT PART IS NOT, IS THAT WHAT YOU WERE SAYING? UM, PART OF THAT WAS TAKEN FROM STATE CODE AND WAS ADOPTED, UM, BACK THEN.
THAT'S WHEN WE WERE HAD NO PROPERTY MAINTENANCE AND UM, REPORTS WE WERE MAINTENANCE.
TRYING TO GET RID OF SOME OF THE FLYING STRUCTURES.
UH, I GUESS IT IS THE WHOLE, THE WHOLE TOWN CODE IS BEING THROWN OUT IN THAT NIGHT TO BE, SO THEY DID NOT APPEAL THAT.
SO THEY HAVEN'T REPEALED IT, THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING.
THE, THE, THE LANGUAGE FROM THE STATE ON BLIGHTED, UH, THAT'S WHY WE ADDRESSED THEM AS DERELICT STRUCTURES, RELATED STRUCTURES, UH, BY STATE CODE ARE THOSE STRUCTURES, UH, IN THE AREA THAT SHOULD BE USED FOR, UH, LOW INCOME HOUSING FALLS UNDER THE HOUSING TITLE.
AND WE DON'T HAVE A HOUSING AUTHORITY.
SO THOSE, UH, IN REALITY WE PROBABLY SHOULD NOT, WE DON'T REFER TO THEM AS BLIGHTED.
WE REFER TO THEM AS DERELICT STRUCTURES BECAUSE OF THE DEFINITION OF THE STATE CODE, HOW IT APPLIES DAVID'S INTENTIONS, YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE IT ENFORCEABLE TOWN VERSUS TRYING TO USE THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE AS THE STATE INSTRUCTION, WHICH IS, HAS A DIFFERENT CONNOTATION TO IT BY CALLING IT BLIND.
WELL IF YOU HAVE A, THOSE AREAS THAT WERE DEEMED BLIGHTED BY STATE CODE, THOSE SHOULD BE SET ASIDE FOR HOUSING PROJECTS.
FOR REGIONAL OR AREA REDEVELOPMENT.
REDEVELOPMENT OF AN AREA, REDEVELOPMENT AREAS.
AND IT SAYS THE DESIGNATION OF INDIVIDUAL PROPERTIES IS BLIGHTED UNDER THE SPOT FLIGHT PROVISIONS OF THIS CHAPTER ARE PUBLIC USES AND PURPOSES FOR WHICH PUBLIC MONEY CAN BE SPENT AND PRIVATE PROPERTY ACQUIRED BY PURCHASE AND EXERCISE THE POWER OF EMINENT DOMAIN
SO IT'S JUST OUTSIDE THE SCOPE OF ANYTHING.
I, I THINK THE INTENTIONS WAS YOU WOULD HAVE ONE BUILDING THAT WAS IN, WAS A DERELICT STRUCTURE AND WE THOUGHT THAT WE COULD DECLARE THAT BLIGHTED.
AND THEN IT SAYS IT'S FOR, IT'S TO PROMOTE THE AVAILABILITY OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING.
SO THE IDEA WAS THAT YOU WOULD BASICALLY USE THIS LIGHT ABATEMENT AND YOU WOULD LIKE AN ENTIRE BLOCK OR, OR LIKE A LARGER PARCEL LAND AND THEN REDEVELOPMENT INTO AFFORDABLE HOUSING REDEVELOPMENT AFFORDABLE HOUSING.
THAT WAS NOT ADOPTED IN ITS ENTIRETY.
THEY ADOPTED PIECES OF IT, PARAGRAPHS OF IT THAT DOESN'T FIT, THAT DOESN'T ALIGN WITH STATE CODE.
'CAUSE WE CERTAINLY HAVE SOME BLIGHTED PROPERTY AIR STRUCTURES STRUCTURE.
SOME OF THEM ARE IN A ROW
YOU CAN HAVE SPOTLIGHT THAT RELATES TO DRUG BLIGHT.
WHICH IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SECTION OF, AND THAT WOULD BE OUR POLICE SORT THAT PROCESS.
BUT THE WORD BLIGHTED IS USED THERE.
I UNDERSTAND DERELICT STRUCTURES.
WE'RE USING NUISANCE CODE RIGHT NOW.
SO WE REFER TO THEM AS DERELICT STRUCTURES.
WE'RE GETTING BLIGHT OUT OF THE LEXICON ACTUALLY CLEAR SOMETHING ACTUALLY THAT'S, THAT'S HANDY TO KNOW BECAUSE I'VE HEARD THE TERMS USED INTERCHANGE.
YEAH, THEY, THEY, WE USE, WE MISUSE THAT TERM QUITE A BIT THROUGHOUT THE COMMUNITY.
SO WE TRY TO USE THE APPROPRIATE TERM AS DERELICT STRUCTURES.
SO LAUREN, WHAT, WHAT LANGUAGE, WHAT'S THE LANGUAGE YOU WANNA STRIKE OUT OF C UM, SO FOR
[01:50:01]
C, WE'RE BASICALLY STARTING AT LINE TWO 70.WE'RE GONNA END THE SENTENCE AT DAMAGE OR DESTRUCTION.
SO THEN WE WOULD BE STRIKING, OR AT ANY TIME THE BUILDING OR STRUCTURE WAS DEEMED BLIGHTED BY TOWN COUNCIL PURSUANT TO TOWN CODE CHAPTER 9, 3 0 3.
SO THE REST OF THAT WOULD JUST GET REMOVED.
SO, UH, AND THEN DEAN TOWN COUNCIL MAY APPROVE SPECIAL USE PERMIT.
WHAT LINE IS THAT? UM, OKAY, SO YOU'RE BACK AT 2 46.
WE WOULD END IT HERE AT THE WORD DESTRUCTION.
WELL THEN, AND JUST LEAVE IT AT WITHIN 12 MONTHS IT SAID DAMAGE OR DESTRUCTION.
AND THEN WE WOULD ALSO REMOVE D IN ITS ENTIRETY.
AND THOSE ARE THE END OF STAFF CHANGES.
THERE'S A FEW GRAMMATIC THINGS IN HERE THAT WE'RE GONNA PUT AS WELL D GOES.
AND IF YOU WANT, YOU COME IN, WE CAN COMPARE GRAMMAR.
NO, BUT WHEN YOU IN, WE CAN, WE CAN GO THROUGH THE
AND PERCENT OF DAMAGE AND IT'S SOME FEDERAL THING OR IS IT A FLOOD THING THAT REQUIRES THAT, UH, JUST LOOKING BACK AT A THAT UH, NOT B, SORRY.
NONCONFORMING STRUCTURES CAN BE RECONSTRUCTED ONLY IF THIS RISE OF THE WORK DOES NOT SEE 50% OF THE REPLACING THE VALUE.
WHAT IS THE REASON FOR THAT 50% LIMIT? UH, LET'S SEE HERE.
WHERE THEY'RE TRYING TO DECIDE IF IT SOMETHING SO BAD, THEY HAVE TO TEAR IT COMPLETELY APART AND THEN REBUILD.
IT'S A NEW STRUCTURE VERSUS THE WELL, YEAH.
OVER SUBSTANTIAL DAMAGE THAT'S, THAT'S GONE ON THE ONE THOSE I'M ASSUMING FROM A NATURAL EVENT WHERE WE WOULD BE TALKING FLOODING HERE OR IT SAYS MANMADE, BUT THOSE, UH, THAT IF YOU HAVE A STRUCTURE THAT TYPICALLY IS DAMAGED AND REPLACEMENT VALUE IS LABELED AS SUBSTANTIAL MORE THAN 50%, THEN THE ENTIRE STRUCTURE HAS TO BE BROUGHT UP TO CODE.
SO IF SOME HANDY 18 WHEELER CRASHES INTO THAT DERELICT STRUCTURE AT THE CORNER OF 16, ANOTHER HYPOTHETICAL.
HYPOTHETICAL, WASN'T THEY, THEY CAN'T EVER PUT ANYTHING THERE THAT'S, UNLESS IT'S WORTH, WORTH LESS THAN 50% THEY CAN REMODEL.
IT'S A NONCONFORMING STRUCTURE AND THAT, AND THAT CURRENTLY HAS THE VALUE OF PROBABLY $50 ON THE OPEN MARKET.
SO
YOU COULD DO THE WORK, YOU COULD DO THE WORK.
SO THERE'S, THERE'S NO END IN SIGHT.
THERE'S NO HAPPY SOLUTION TO THAT PARTICULAR ACTUALLY LAND HOW MUCH THEY LIKE.
BUT THAT, THAT, THAT HAS TO BE THERE BECAUSE THAT, THAT'S A CODE THAT A 50% RULE IS A CODE SOMEWHERE IN THE LAW THAT ISN'T THAT FEDERAL.
BUT BUT MANMADE IS NOT SAME AS A FLOOD LOG.
THAT AREA BECAUSE THAT, THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE DOES KIND OF PREVENT ANYBODY THAT'S IN FEDERAL LAW.
YOU COULD HAVE TO, I FORGOT, IS IT ONE FOOT ABOVE THE HIGHEST FOOT, FOOT ABOVE BASE BASE FOOT.
AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IS FOR THAT AREA, BUT A SURVEYOR WOULD HAVE TO SUBMIT YEAH.
BUT IT WOULD THINK THE THINK BUILDING TO NOW IS BASE FLOOD AND YOU HAVE TO BUILD TWO FOOT ABOVE BASE, TWO FEET ABOVE, ABOVE BASE FLOOD ELEVATION.
BUT THIS MEANS THAT NOBODY'S EVER GONNA BE ABLE TO FIX THAT, THAT LOT, THAT LOT COMMERCIAL NOW THIS IS WHY IT'S WORTH $50.
50 50 YOU TALKING ABOUT NOW WHICH ONE ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? OH, THAT, THAT GREEN EYESORE IS THE QUARTER COMMERCE AND TOWER.
THAT WHOLE BALLPARK IS IN THE FLOODPLAIN.
AND WHEN IT GET TO IT, WENDY'S, SO THEY, THEY WENT TO REPAIR THAT STRUCTURE.
FOR EXAMPLE, IF REPAIR WAS GONNA BE MORE THAN 50% OF THE VALUE, THE WHOLE STRUCTURE WOULD HAVE TO BE BROUGHT IN COMPLIANCE, APPLICABLE
[01:55:01]
BUILDING AND FLOODPLAIN CODE.AND IF SOMEBODY JUST TORE IT DOWN, THEY'D HAVE TO BUILD TO THEN IT'S NEW CONSTRUCTION.
THEY DON'T HAVE TO, THEY CAN DEMOLISH IT AND LEAVE IT.
THE PROBLEM IS DOWN THERE IS THAT AREA SIT LOWER THAN THE CREEK OVER THERE.
SO WHEN IT RAINS YOU GOT ALL THAT RAIN SIDE.
AND, AND THE OUTLET IS HIGHER THAN THE, THAN THAT AREA THEN.
SO THAT'S BUILDING FOR EXAMPLE, 50%.
IF YOU LOOK AT THAT BUILDING, I MEAN YOU CAN KIND OF TELL THAT TO REPAIR THAT STRUCTURE YOU'RE GOING TO, THE EXPENSE GONNA BE GREATER THAN 50% OF THE VALUE UP.
IT'S PROBABLY BEEN THERE ONE 40 YEARS.
BUT IT'S BOARDED UP SO IT NEEDS TO THE MAINTENANCE CODE PART.
FILIBUSTER, ANYTHING ELSE DONE? YOU GOT IT? YES.
TO BE CONTINUED THAT THANK YOU.
UH, GO HEAR A MOTION TO AJO MOVE.
ARE THERE ANY OTHER DISCUSSIONS YOU WANNA HAVE BEFORE YOU WE'RE HERE? ANYTHING ELSE? WE NEED TALK.
GET IT OUT NOW BEFORE YOU, BEFORE ADJOURN.