* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. [00:00:01] OFF AND RUNNING. OKAY. I'M [Special Planning and Zoning on April 29, 2024.] GOING TO CALL THE TOWN COUNCIL SPECIAL JOINT WORK SESSION, UM, JOINT PC WORK SESSION TO ORDER FOR MONDAY, APRIL 29TH. UM, AND MS. PRESLEY, CAN YOU DO A ROLL CALL? PLANNING COMMISSION? CHAIRMAN MARNER HERE. MEMBER WOOD HERE. ARE YOU GONNA BE WITH PC? UH, WHATEVER YOU WANT ME. WHEREVER YOU NEED, YOU'LL HAVE TO LET US KNOW. I'LL BE ON THE PC TIME. OKAY. MEMBER WILLIAMS HERE. MEMBER MATTHEW HERE. TOWN COUNCIL. MAYOR COCHRAN. HERE. VICE MAYOR. SEA LOCK'S. ABSENT. COUNCILMAN INGRAM? HERE. COUNCILWOMAN MORRIS? HERE. COUNCILMAN RAPPAPORT? HERE. COUNCILMAN D DEMON KANE. HERE. COUNCILMAN WOOD IS WITH P COMMISSION. OKAY. ALRIGHT, SO WE'RE GONNA GET STARTED. UM, JUST TO LET YOU GUYS KNOW, WE'RE ACTUALLY GONNA CHANGE THE ORDER AND WE'RE GONNA DO THE DISCUSSION OF VAPE SHOPS FIRST. WE THOUGHT MAYBE THERE WAS A LITTLE BIT MORE. UM, BUT ANYWAY, THAT, I THINK THAT'S GONNA BE THE BEST WAY TO GO. SO MS. KAKI IS GONNA, UM, PROVIDE INFORMATION AS, AS YOU GUYS KNOW, BUT FOR THE, FOR THE PUBLIC, LET ME JUST START OFF BY SAYING TONIGHT, THE PURPOSE OF TONIGHT'S MEETING IS SO THAT PLANNING COMMISSION AND TOWN COUNCIL CAN HAVE OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT, UM, WHAT INPUT WE WANNA GIVE OUR PLANNING DEPARTMENT AS THEY ARE REWRITING THINGS OR WRITING THINGS, UM, AND SUMMIT COMING ALONG. UM, WITH WHAT THEY'RE WORKING WITH US, WE JUST NEED TO KNOW IF WE WANNA MAKE CHANGES TO, UM, POLICIES OR ORDINANCES AND, UH, RATHER THAN EVERYTHING, GO TO ONE GROUP AND THEN COME TO ANOTHER. AND THEN, UM, THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR EVERYBODY TO HAVE SOME DISCUSSION. NOW, MS. KAKI, GO AHEAD. ALRIGHT. SO, WITH VAPE SHOPS, WE DO NOT CURRENTLY REGULATE VAPE SHOPS, BUT, UM, AS WE'VE STARTED RESEARCHING THIS, THERE ARE A FEW TOOLS AND AVENUES WE CAN TAKE. SO, RIGHT, LIKE LAURIE JUST SAID, I JUST WANT A LITTLE BIT OF FEEDBACK FROM COUNCIL, UH, SO WE CAN KIND OF START FIGURING OUT HOW WE INCORPORATE, INCORPORATE THIS. SO ONE OF OUR OPTIONS WOULD BE TO LOOK AT SQUARE FOOTAGE OF SALES AREA. WHAT I'M SEEING IN OTHER, UM, ORDINANCES THAT WE'RE RESEARCHING IS, UM, LOOKING AT LIKE 15% OR 20% OF GROSS LIKE SALES AREA. IF MORE THAN THAT PERCENTAGE IS DEDICATED TO LIKE E-CIGARETTE OR TOBACCO PRODUCTS, THEN THAT CAN REQUIRE ADDITIONAL REGULATIONS, EITHER BY SPECIAL USE PERMIT OR, UM, REQUIRING OR PERMITTING THEM ONLY IN CERTAIN ZONING DISTRICTS LIKE COMMERCIAL OR INDUSTRIAL. UM, THE OTHER AVENUE IS DISTANCE FROM SCHOOLS, CHURCHES OR DAYCARE. ANYWHERE YOU HAVE MINOR CHILDREN, WE CAN LOOK AT REGULATION, UM, SAY A THOUSAND FEET, OR YOU CAN SAY, YOU KNOW, A QUARTER MILE, WHATEVER THE, UM, DESIRED DISTANCE WOULD BE. UM, THE TOWN OF WOODSTOCK, I BELIEVE ACTUALLY VERY RECENTLY PASSED AN ORDINANCE WHERE THEY BANNED BAIT SHOPS IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT. THAT IS SOMETHING WE CAN LOOK AT. OR IF WE DON'T WANNA DO THAT IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, WE CAN LOOK AT ENTRANCE CORRIDOR REGULATIONS DOING SPECIAL USE PERMIT ONLY IN THE ENTRANCE CORRIDOR. CURRENTLY IN OUR ENTRANCE CORRIDOR, WE HAVE SIX VAPE SHOPS. UM, I THINK WE HAVE ABOUT 17 VAPE SHOPS IN TOWN TOTAL, AND THEY FALL UNDER RETAIL SALES. SO WHEN THEY COME IN, IT'S A PRODUCT THAT THEY'RE SELLING TO THE PUBLIC. WE ISSUE A BUSINESS LICENSE UNDER RETAIL SALES, AND THEN IT GOES OUT TO FINANCE AND THEY ISSUE THEIR LICENSE. I JUST WANNA CLARIFY, I BELIEVE THIS IS WHAT WAS SAID BEFORE, JUST AGAIN, THIS IS PROBABLY MORE FOR THE PUBLIC THAN IS FOR US, BUT IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT ANYTHING THAT, UH, THESE TWO GROUPS, UM, WHAT OR COMMISSION OR COUNCIL MIGHT DECIDE OR MIGHT SUGGEST OR MIGHT BRING FORWARD FOR THE PUBLIC INPUT. NONE OF THE CURRENT 17 WILL BE AFFECTED BY THIS. CORRECT? THEY WOULD ESSENTIALLY, UM, THEY'D BE ALLOWED TO EXIST AS IS. SO I JUST WANNA, JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND ANYTHING NEW. RIGHT. WE HAVE TO FALL UNDER THE REGULATIONS THAT WERE IN THE NEW CODE. OKAY. DID YOU SEE ANYBODY THAT, UM, HAD FOR INSTANCE, UM, LIKE AN ASSESSMENT OF THE RETAIL THROUGHOUT A COMMUNITY AND THEN, YOU KNOW, NO DUPLICATION ABOVE A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE. SO IF WE HAVE 17 OUT OF X AMOUNT OF BUSINESSES, THEN [00:05:03] CAP LIKE IN THAT, IN THAT WAY? I DID NOT SEE THAT. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT DOESN'T EXIST. UM, I DID GET A CALL LAST WEEK. THE CITY OF HARRISONBURG IS LOOKING AT INCORPORATING SOME OF THESE INTO THEIR ORDINANCE REWRITE. SO THEY'VE BEEN DOING RESEARCH. SO MY THOUGHT WAS IS AFTER GATHERING SOME INPUT HERE, I MAY START CALLING AROUND OTHER JURISDICTIONS AS WELL AND SEE IF THERE'S ANYTHING LIKE THAT. I KNOW JAMES CITY WAS DOING STUFF BECAUSE LAST YEAR ONE OF MY FORMER STUDENTS WHO, UM, WORKS IN PLANNING AND ZONING AT JAMES CITY ACTUALLY SENT ME AN EMAIL, SAID, REMEMBER ME? AND SAID THAT HE HAD SEEN WHERE, YOU KNOW, HE KEPT UP WITH WHAT WAS GOING ON IN FRONT ROYAL AND THEY WERE DOING SOMETHING THERE IN, IN REGARDS TO VAPE SHOPS AS WELL. BUT THEY WERE JUST GETTING INTO HOW THEY WERE GONNA BE ABLE TO, UM, DO IT LEGALLY. SO ANYWAY, BUT MELISSA, ARE YOU, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS, SO LET'S SAY IF THERE WERE 200 BUSINESSES IN FRONT ROYAL AND THERE WERE 20, LIKE YOU'RE SAYING, LIKE MAYBE YOU WOULD, YOU COULD CAP IT AT LIKE 10% OF YOUR BUSINESS LICENSES. COULD BE THAT, IS THAT WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK I WAS THINKING, I MEAN, IT COULD HAVE APPLIED TO OTHER KINDS OF BUSINESSES TOO. WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER SEVEN 11 FOR INSTANCE, OR WE DON'T NEED, YOU KNOW, THE BANK, YOU KNOW, ANY, ANYTHING LIKE THAT. WE'RE CLOSING RIGHT OUT. TRUE. THAT'S BAD. TRUE. YEAH. THAT'S WHAT I'M THINKING ABOUT. SO THAT WE CAN HAVE A DIVERSE BUSINESS SPACE OF THINGS THAT WE NEED. YOU KNOW, DO WE NEED, DO WE NEED, EVEN WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT THINGS LIKE FAST FOOD, DO WE NEED ANOTHER FAST FOOD ESTABLISHMENT OR DO WE NEED ANOTHER DONNER FAMILY RESTAURANT OF SOME SIT DOWN? YOU KNOW, JUST THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THINKING IN TERMS OF THAT, I MEAN, 'CAUSE OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A MARKET FOR VAPING, UM, SO WE NOT GONNA SAY BAN, YOU KNOW, COMPLETELY, BUT I JUST FOR DIVERSITY OF RETAIL AND, AND OFFER OFFERING PEOPLE OPPORTUNITY TO START DIFFERENT KINDS OF BUSINESSES. HOW ABOUT A DISTANCE BETWEEN, UH, VAPE SHOPS, ? YES. AND THAT YES, THAT WOULD BE, YEAH. THEY SHOULD NOT BE CLUSTERED. ALL OF YOUR IDEAS THAT YOU GUYS THROW OUT TONIGHT ARE LIKE, UH, HENRICO COUNTY, I THINK IT'S HENRICO, UH, THEY PASSED SOMETHING. IT SAYS 2000 FEET AWAY FROM SCHOOLS PARKS AS WELL AS OTHER BACKHOE AND DAVE SHOPS. OH, THAT WAS SOMETHING WE DIDN'T SAY. WE SAID DISTANCE FROM. I MEAN, YOU WERE SAYING IF PEOPLE WERE PARKS, I THINK LIKE SCHOOLS, CHURCHES, DAYCARE PARKS. THAT'S TRUE, BECAUSE ALL OF OUR PARKS OTHER THAN ROCKLAND ARE IN IN TOWN LIMITS. I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU'LL BE ABLE TO DO THE CHURCHES JUST BECAUSE AT ONE TIME, YOU KNOW, FROM ROYAL WARREN COUNTY HAD 60 CHURCHES. SO IT WOULD BE REALLY DIFFICULT TO BE THAT WE HAVE LIKE NO VAPE. HMM. THAT'D BE COOL. WE'D HAVE LIKE NONE DISTANCE FROM ICE CREAM SHOPS OR KANSAS. THERE YOU GO. I HAVE, I HAVE A QUESTION OR A THOUGHT TODAY. UM, OBVIOUSLY IT'S NO SURPRISE TO ANYBODY WHO READS THE NEWS OR HAS STUDENTS IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM HERE, BUT THE VAPE SHOPS ARE COSTING THE COUNTY A LOT OF MONEY RIGHT NOW. IT'S A HUGE ISSUE IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS EVERY SINGLE DAY THERE'S A NOTICE SENT OUT THAT A NEW VAPE'S BEEN FOUND. I MEAN, FROM BASICALLY SIXTH GRADE UP RIGHT NOW. IS THERE A WAY FOR THEM TO BE TAXED DIFFERENTLY ON THE LOCAL TAX SCALE? I KNOW THE STATE HAS A DIFFERENT TAX REGULATION, BUT CAN WE AS A LOCALITY CHANGE THE WAY THAT THEY'RE TAXED? I THINK THERE IS LIKE A CIGARETTE TAX OR TOBACCO TAX. ITS A STATE THOUGH, RIGHT? WELL NOW THERE'S STATE ADVOCATED RAISING THEIR CIGARETTE TAX SIGNIFICANTLY, SIGNIFICANTLY BECAUSE THEY, THEY HAD A SHORTAGE BECAUSE THEY WANT THAT, UH, YOU CAN REVIEW THE MODEL, UH, FOR LICENSING FEES. I THINK LICENSING FEES IS GONNA AFFECT ALL BUSINESS OWNERS AND THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE THAT OPERATE SMALL BUSINESSES OUT OF THEIR HOMES THAT HAVE BUSINESS LICENSE. SO I DON'T THINK IT'S FAIR TO PENALIZE EVERYBODY FOR THAT. RETAILS ARE DIFFERENT CATEGORY BUSINESS IF THEY HAVE DIFFERENT TYPES OF YEAH. SO WE DON'T PERMIT RETAIL OUT OF THE HOME. LIKE YOU CAN'T. RIGHT. WE DON'T PERMIT CATEGORIES OF TEXAS CUSTOMERS COME IN THE HOUSE, A WORK STORE IN YOUR HOUSE. RIGHT. RIGHT. AND YOU GET TAX IF YOU WORK IN A CONSULTING BUSINESS FROM YOUR HOME. EVEN STILL, I DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE TO PAY THE SAME TAXES ON A BOOK SALE THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE TO PAY ON A NICOTINE. NO. IT'S A SEPARATE. YEAH, IT IS. BUT I DIDN'T KNOW AS A LOCALITY IF THERE WAS SOMETHING WE COULD DO IN REGARDS TO THAT. MR. SONNET IS THIS, I'D HAVE TO LOOK. I KNOW THIS IS FAR GLAD YOU'RE HERE AS FAR AS THE TAX ISSUE. I'D HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT. OKAY. I'M NOT AWARE AS I SIT HERE OF IT JUST SEEMS THAT THAT'S ONE WAY TO COMBAT THE ISSUE. YEAH, IT'S, WELL, UM, [00:10:01] COUNCILMAN WOOD IS RIGHT. I'M TRYING TO THINK WHAT DAY IT WAS. I WANNA SAY IT WAS IN THE PAPER LAST WEEK. IT WAS THAT IT WAS SOME, UH, IT'S MOUNT JACKSON. RIGHT? AND THEN WHAT'S YEAH, MOUNT JACKSON AND, AND THEY WERE INCREASING THEIR CIGARETTE TEXT. RIGHT. WHICH MAKES ME QUESTION LIKE, LIKE EACH INDIVIDUAL LOCALITY COULD CHANGE THEIR, THE, I KNOW WE HAVE LIKE A MEALS TAX AND THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF THAT TAX AND MR. SONA CAN LOOK IT UP. BUT IF THIS, IF THESE BODIES SAID, YEAH, LET'S, LET'S INCREASE THE, THE SALES TAX FOR, FOR THOSE PRODUCTS OR WHATEVER. I DON'T KNOW IF THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE SOME LIKE, UM, IF YOU WOULD HAVE TO, YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TRYING SAY WE'RE GONNA PUT IT TOWARDS THIS. YEAH. LIKE, LIKE, UM, LIKE THE SALES TAX AND LODGING TAX HAS TO GO TOWARDS TOURISM DOLLARS IN THE COUNTY, RIGHT? LIKE, WOULD THIS BE SOMETHING THAT IF WE SAID, OKAY, WE INCREASE THE SALES TAX ON NICOTINE PRODUCTS, THAT MONEY CAN BE SET ASIDE TO PROVIDE THINGS FOR THE SCHOOL, LIKE THE VAPE DETECTORS OR, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? LIKE SOMETHING THAT AS YOU SAID, LIKE, OR EDUCATION. OR EDUCATION. I DON'T KNOW. YES, MIKE. THAT CAN BE CONSIDERED A PROGRESSIVE TAX, UH, BECAUSE YOU'RE TAXING THE PERSON'S PURCHASING THE PRODUCT. OKAY. UH, THAT, THAT WOULD BE, THAT, THAT'S WHY I I WAS MENTIONING THE FOCUSING ON THE TOBACCO LICENSING FEES. THAT WOULD BE THE TAX ON THE, IF YOU WILL, TAX BASICALLY ON, ON THE, UH, ON ENTREPRENEUR. RIGHT? WELL, AND THE LICENSING FEE IS SOMETHING WE COULD PUT INTO OUR SCHEDULE OF FEES AND ZONING ORDINANCE, LIKE SOME OF THE TAX DISTRICTS. I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT WOULD BE A ZONING ISSUE FOR US. LIKE THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING THE TOWN WOULD DO. BUT, SO FOR, FOR, BUT WOULD THAT CHANGE? UH, WHAT I MEAN IS IF, IF WE DECIDED TO DO THAT, LIKE CHANGE THE LICENSING FEE, THEY PAY THAT EACH YEAR. RIGHT. AND THAT WOULD BE, SHOULDN'T BE SOMETHING YOU'D BE GRANDFATHERED IN. 'CAUSE THAT'S A YEARLY FEE ANYWAY. WELL, IN ZONING WE DON'T CHARGE FOR THE BUSINESS LICENSES. SO THEY JUST COME IN, WE DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THE USE IS APPROPRIATE ON THAT PROPERTY. AND THEN THEY GO TO FINANCE AND FINANCE CHARGES A FEE FOR BUSINESS LICENSING. BUT WE DON'T, MR. WILLIAMS, AT SOME POINT WE HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES WHAT DO WE WANT, WHAT DO WE WANT OUR TOWN TO LOOK LIKE? AND RIGHT NOW IT LOOKS LIKE A CHRISTMAS STORE YEAR ROUND. AND THAT'S A LITTLE DISCOURAGING TO ME. AND IT'S A GUY WHO WORKED WITH KIDS FOR A LIVING AND WHO'S A CAPITALIST AND WHO DOESN'T WANT MY TAXES TO GO UP. I DON'T MIND TAXING THE WHATEVER OUT OF PEOPLE. QUITE FRANKLY, I DON'T WANT MY TOWN, AND I DON'T MEAN TO BE HURTFUL OR WHATEVER, BUT I'M, I'M TIRED OF THESE PEOPLE COMING INTO MY TOWN BY RIGHT. AND WHATEVER'S GOING TO LIMIT THE VAPE SHOP SITUATION, I, I'M ALL FOR. BUT IF WE DON'T HAVE THE OPTION OF LIMITING IT, THEN GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO RAISE REVENUE BASED UPON THAT, I'M ALL FOR WHATEVER THE LEGAL LIMIT IS FOR THAT. AND I WOULD JUST SUBMIT TO TOWN COUNSEL THAT THE REALITY IS THESE PEOPLE ARE BUYING TIME. THEY'RE BUYING TIME BASED UPON THE POLITICAL CLIMATE WAITING FOR SOMETHING TO CHANGE SO THAT THEY CAN SELL WEED. AND I, I'M NOT TRYING TO BE RUDE OR WHATEVER, I'M, I'M JUST BEING HONEST. THE REALITY IS THEY'RE WAITING FOR THE POLITICAL CLIMATE TO CHANGE SO THAT THEY CAN, SO THE THAT'S LOOK, LOOK AT WHERE THEY'RE LOCATED FOR GOODNESS SAKES. THEY'RE LOCATED IN PERFECTLY POSITIONED POSITIONS TO, TO BE ABLE TO, TO EVENTUALLY SELL MARIJUANA. UM, WHEN IT BECOMES A, WHEN IT BECOMES A LEGAL RIGHT. I THINK MY THING WITH THE TAXING WASN'T THE END ALL BE ALL. I WOULD LIKE TO LIMIT IT AND DISCOURAGE IT, WHICH I THINK DOES BOTH. SO I'D ALSO BE IN FAVOR OF, UM, SUP AND AN ENTRANCE CORRIDOR. I THINK THE ENTRANCE CORRIDOR IS ONE THING THAT MIGHT, OR MR. WILLIAMS ALLUDED TO THE CHRISTMAS TOWN. I MEAN, I THINK WE ALREADY DO HAVE A VISION FOR OUR TOWN AND WE'VE EXECUTED THAT WITH OUR COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. UM, SO I THINK WE NEED TO DO MORE THAN ONE THING, WHICH IS LIMIT AND DISCOURAGE ANYMORE FROM COMING. AND I THINK THE BUSINESS LICENSE WOULD ALSO DISCOURAGE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE ALREADY HERE. AND LAST YEAR, A COUPLE OF US WERE INVITED TO THE VIRGINIA MUNICIPAL LEAGUE ELECTED OFFICIALS CONFERENCE THAT WE ATTENDED IN [00:15:01] NORFOLK, VIRGINIA. AND I WAS ONE OF ONLY TWO PEOPLE FROM FRONT OIL TO BE ABLE TO ATTEND ONE OF ONLY FOUR, UM, MARIJUANA GROW FACILITIES IN THE STATE OF VIRGINIA. AND WHICH CURRENT LEGISLATION ALLOWS. AND ALSO AS IT IS, IF MARIJUANA WERE TO BE LEGALIZED, UM, THERE'S ONLY GOING TO BE A CERTAIN AMOUNT PER LOCALITY, WHICH IS CURRENTLY ONE. SO ALL OF THESE PEOPLE IN LINE OUT OF THE 17, ONLY ONE OF THEM WOULD BE ABLE TO IF IT WERE LEGALIZED, UM, FOR RECREATIONAL SALES. SO I THINK WHAT WE'RE GONNA HAVE, IF IT COMES TO THAT AT A STATE LEVEL, WHICH WE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER, IS, UM, ASIDE FROM LOBBYING OUR LEGISLATORS, IS WE'RE GONNA HAVE 16 EMPTY BUILDINGS. SO THEY'RE IN LINE WAITING, BUT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET THAT OPPORTUNITY EVEN IF THE STATE PASSES IT. COUNCIL MOORES DO, DO YOU DIFFER OR AGREE THAT WITH US BEING A DILLON LAW SITUATION, THAT DEPENDING ON THE POLITICAL CLIMATE, THE STATE LEGISLATURE COULD SAY, I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY LEGISLATURES ON EITHER SIDE OF THE AISLE IN MY VISITS TO ANY OF THESE CONFERENCES THAT HAVE, UH, PROPOSED OR LOBBIED FOR MORE THAN ONE PER LOCALITY. OKAY. AND THAT'S ACTUALLY COMING FROM BEFORE THE LAST UBER NATIONAL ELECTION IN VIRGINIA. SO I HEAR, AND THAT'S WHAT WE WERE TOLD WHEN THIS ALL FIRST STARTED COMING OUT, WAS THAT, I MEAN I I, I SAW IT COMING. I DIDN'T SEE IT COMING. THIS DIDN'T SEE IT COMING IN THIS GRAVITY OF NUMBERS. BUT WE WERE TOLD 2020, I THINK 2020 OR 2021, I CAN REMEMBER THE FORMER TOWN ATTORNEY. AND THEY WERE SAYING THAT THEY WERE POSITIONING THEMSELVES BECAUSE IT WAS ALMOST LIKE, UM, FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD, LIKE A LOTTERY. IT IS A LOTTERY. IT'S A LOTTERY. IT'S GONNA BE THE MORE BASICALLY LIKE YOU'RE, YOU'RE BANKING YOUR ODDS TO BE THE ONE THAT GETS PICKED. NOW I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS TRUE, IT IS HONEST. NO, I KNOW THAT PART. THE NEXT PART I'M ABOUT TO SAY, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S TRUE OR NOT, BUT I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT SOME OF THE VAPE SHOPS MAYBE HERE OTHER PLACES, THEY'RE OWNED BY THE SAME PEOPLE. MM-HMM. . AND SO LET'S JUST SAY IF OUT OF THOSE 17, ONE PERSON OWNS FOUR OF 'EM AND THEY'VE NOW INCREASED, YOU KNOW, THEY GOT A 25% CHANCE OF ONE OF THEIR BUSINESSES BEING THE ONE THAT'S GOT, YOU KNOW, GETS THEIR NAME DRAWN FOR LACK. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? SO, UM, ANYWAY, BUT BACK TO, SO HERE'S THE ONE THING I WILL SAY, IT SOUNDS LIKE FROM LISTENING TO Y'ALL, AND, AND IF I'M WRONG, TELL ME I'M WRONG, IT SOUNDS LIKE EVERYBODY IN HERE HAS AN APPETITE TO MAKE SOME CHANGES, WHETHER IT IS, UM, WHETHER IT'S THROUGH TAX, WHETHER IT'S THROUGH SOME REGULATION. UM, I WILL SAY THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I HEARD TONIGHT, WHICH IS APPEALING TO ME, IS THAT EVEN THOSE THAT ARE ALREADY HERE, FINDING A WAY TO HAVE AN IMPACT THERE. UM, BECAUSE WE'RE, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT'S HERE, BUT WE CAN DO SOME THINGS ABOUT WHAT'S HERE IS WHAT IT SOUNDED LIKE YOU'RE SAYING. I KNOW MR. SON'S GONNA LOOK THAT UP, BUT FROM WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE SAYING, THERE COULD BE SOME WAY TO, UM, TO UH, TO TO FIND A WAY DISCOURAGE, I DON'T KNOW, SEND YOU TEXT OR WHATEVER, BUT, YOU KNOW, TO JUST MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE, UM, THAT YOU KNOW, THAT. AND LIKE I SAID, MAYBE THE ANSWER IS BECAUSE I KNOW I CAN HEAR SOME PEOPLE IN THE PUBLIC SAYING, OH, YOU JUST WANT A TAX. I'M SAYING IF WE DID SOMETHING LIKE THIS, SET THE MONEY FOR A PURPOSE. LIKE THE PURPOSE WOULD BE TO EDUCATE YOUR PUBLIC WARD OR LIKE I SAID, TO PROVIDE MM-HMM. , YOU KNOW, MAYBE MONEY TOWARDS THE DARE PROGRAM. MAYBE THINGS THAT ARE GONNA EDUCATE CHILDREN ABOUT THIS SO THAT, YOU KNOW, ANYWAY, THAT'S JUST AN IDEA. BUT Y'ALL KNOW I'M ABOUT KIDS, SO MM-HMM. , THE COUNTY JUST INCREASED THEIR TAX AND IT WAS IN LARGE PART DUE TO THE SCHOOL BOARD BUDGET BEING GROSSLY OVER. AND THE SCHOOL BOARD BUDGET IS PART IN PART OVER BECAUSE OF THE ISSUES WITH COMBATING WITH THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE, SROS, THE ADMINISTRATION AND TRANSFERRING THESE KIDS TO A DIFFERENT SCHOOL NOW. UM, SO THE FACT THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL BE, YOU KNOW, UPSET THAT WE'RE GONNA TEXT THEM BASED ON IT. IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S A MATTER OF BEING RESPONSIBLE. THERE'S A WAY THAT THESE MINORS ARE GETTING THESE VAPES IN THEIR HANDS. UM, IT'S NOT NECESSARILY CIGARETTES THAT ARE THE ISSUE ANYMORE AND IT'S A CONVENIENCE FACTOR. BUT ALSO IF WE IMPLEMENTED A FEE FOR LICENSING OR TAX, I MEAN, THERE'S NO WAY IN THE WORLD THAT IT MAKES FINANCIAL SENSE FOR ALL 17 OF THEM TO BE OPERATING. THERE'S [00:20:01] ANY DAY OF THE WEEK YOU CAN DRIVE BY. AND I, FOR SAKE OF LEGAL REASONS, WILL NOT NAME THE ONES VAPE SHOPS IN TOWN IN OUR ENTRY CORRIDORS THAT HAVE NOBODY THERE. ONE ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. THE ONE CAR IS THERE EMPLOYEE. I'M EVEN WALKED INSIDE AND TALKED TO A COUPLE OF 'EM AFTER THIS WAS ON COUNCIL LAST YEAR, WE HAD A BUSINESS OWNER COME BEFORE US ABOUT THE GOOD THAT HE WAS DOING FOR NICOTINE USERS IN THE COMMUNITY. AND HE WAS A LOCAL PERSON THAT OWNED HIS IN A SHOPPING CENTER. YEAH. AND UM, I'M GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP. 'CAUSE THAT'S, SO THERE IS, THAT WAS ACTUALLY POSITIVE THINGS THAT COME OUT OF THIS. I MEAN, ME OF ALL PEOPLE, I'M FOR LESS REGULATION TYPICALLY, BUT AT SOME POINT I THINK IT'S IRONIC THAT THIS IS ON THE AGENDA FIRST BEFORE P AND D AND SHORT-TERM RENTALS. BECAUSE IT'S A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WHAT I SAID PRIOR SPEAKING ABOUT P AND DS. AFTER YOU'VE OPENED THE FLOOD GATES, THERE'S NO WAY TO CLAW IT BACK. SO THIS IS THE PRIME EXAMPLE FOR WHAT WE'RE HEADED INTO NEXT. WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY REGULATIONS IN PLACE. WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT. THE TOWN WAS NOT PREPARED AND DID NOT HAVE A VISION FOR VAPE SHOPS. AND NOW WE HAVE 17 AND WE'RE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE CAN GET RID OF THEM. TAXING IS NOT A ZONING THING THOUGH. SO THAT'S NOTHING PLANNING CONDITION CAN DO. IT'S SOMETHING THAT THE COUNCIL CAN DO. IT'S SOMETHING COUNCIL CAN DO. YOU'RE TALKING YOURSELVES. BUT AGAIN, THIS IS REALLY LIKE, I THINK IT'S A TWO PRONGED DISCUSSION. IT'S GOOD TO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY. IT'S JUST ONE OF MANY THINGS THAT, I MEAN, LAUREN DID FUND THOSE THINGS. UM, YEAH, WE DON'T DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS WHICH DO AFFECT PLANNING COMMISSION. WHICH OF THOSE ARE THE MOST ATTRACTIVE SINCE WE'VE GOT THE PLANNING COMMISSION HERE TOGETHER? WHICH, WHICH OF THOSE DO YOU LIKE? THEY'RE ALL THE BOTTOM TWO. THE BOTTOM TWO ARE NO-BRAINER TO ME. I THINK THOSE SHOULD BE IN PLACE AS OF, AND I THINK THE SECOND ONE I WOULD ADD PARKS TO IT, BUT THAT'S JUST ME BECAUSE OKAY. I IDEA OF SEPARATE FROM EACH OTHER SO THAT THEY'RE NOT ALL CLUSTERED IN ONE NEIGHBORHOOD. I THINK SEVEN OR 10 ARE ON SOUTH STREET ALONE. RIGHT. AND YOU SAID HENRICO DID THAT? YES. ERIC COCKRELL. YES. HAS ANYONE SORTED HOW FAR, HOW MANY FEET? THE ONE ON THE ONE THAT'S AWAY FROM AS ROADS ELEMENTARY? NO, I, I HONESTLY HAVEN'T. I WOULD BE SHOCKED IF THAT WAS LESS THAN 1000 FEET. WAS ONE THE ONE ACROSS FROM SHEETS BEFORE THE DOUBLE BRIDGES? NO, HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE ONE ACROSS FROM SHEETS. OKAY. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE BIG SHOP ACROSS FROM SHEETS. HOW MANY FEET IS THAT? MAY . WELL, BY THE WAY, THE CROW FLIES . IT, IT MAY VERY WELL BE, I MEAN THE ROAD IT YOU GOTTA GO HERE, BUT I BET WELL THAT'S ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE OF IN AN ENTRANCE CORRIDOR YOU COME ACROSS MULTIMILLION DOLLAR BRIDGES. BUT THE COUNTY WORKS SO HARD TO HAVE ERECTED AND DEDICATED TO LOOK AT WHAT LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE DRIVING INTO A CASINO TOWN. IT'S ALL HOURS OF THE DAY AT NIGHT. VERY ON TRACK. WELL, WE CAN ALSO, OUR SIGN ORDINANCE, THE ADDITIONAL REGULATIONS. IT IS CLOSE POINT. NO, HE, SO THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT THE ONE, UM, THAT'S RIGHT OVER THE BRIDGE ACTUALLY. IT IS SUPER CLOSE TO, UM, THE HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES BUILDING, WHICH IS ALSO OUR BRIGHTER FEATURES AND DIVERSIFIED NINE PROGRAM. SO THAT ONE IS GOING AWAY THOUGH. WHAT? THERE'S, THERE'S CHURCHES AND CHURCHES. YEAH. BRIDGES SEVERAL. THE PLAN WHAT TO TAKE IT DOWN, BUT YEAH. SO IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU WANNA LOOK INTO HOW FAR HENRICO, BUT WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK IF WE WERE GONNA DO THIS, WHAT WOULD BE A DISTANCE? LAUREN AND I WERE JUST TALKING ALSO THIS, WELL NOT THIS COUNCIL. YOU, WHEN YOU WERE ON COUNCIL WITH ME, WE IMPLEMENTED, UM, SIGNAGE, WHICH INCLUDED THE FLASH NO FLASHING LIGHTS. RIGHT. WE BANNED THE FLASHING LIGHTS. MM-HMM. WE COULD ALSO CRACK DOWN AND GO FURTHER ON REGULATING THE LIGHTS TO LIKE ONLY BE OPEN DURING CERTAIN HOURS OF THE DAY. NOT ALL NIGHT. 'CAUSE THEY LEAVE 'EM ON ALL NIGHT RIGHT. NOW TO ADD, TO ADD TO THAT, UM, IT, IT, IT WAS EITHER HENRICO OR CHESTERFIELD. OKAY. BUT IT WAS 8:00 AM TO 8:00 PM I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE, WHERE WE , SOME OF OUR VAPE SHOPS ARE OPEN UNTIL MIDNIGHT. RIGHT. SO THAT'S SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE COULD DO. NOW WE HAVE A BEAUTIFUL SUNSET MONDAY THREE, WE HAVE BEAUTIFUL SUNSETS OFF THE, SO, SO ENCO OR CHESTERFIELD WAS, WHAT DID YOU SAY? 11 TO, I MEAN, EIGHT TO WHAT? EIGHT 8:00 AM TO 8:00 PM 8:00 AM TO 8:00 PM UM, THE OTHER, THE OTHER THING IS SETTING PERFORMANCE STANDARDS FOR LICENSE RE REVOCATION OF YOUR EXISTING MM-HMM. . UM, YOU KNOW, THAT'S SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT TOO. DID YOU COME ACROSS THAT? YES. WHERE, UH, WELL, THIS, THIS WAS, UH, ACTUALLY IN PRINCE GEORGE'S [00:25:01] COUNTY, MARYLAND. WHAT WERE, WHAT WERE THE STANDARDS? DO YOU REMEMBER? UH, I'M SORRY, I DON'T, I WONDER IF IT WAS LIKE CITATIONS AND THERE'S LIKE, AND I DON'T KNOW HOW WELL IT'S BEING ENFORCED OR NOT ENFORCED, BUT, YOU KNOW, THEY COULDN'T USE CITATIONS FOR SELLING TO MINORS OR, YOU KNOW, THAT SORT OF THING. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING. YEAH. THAT I WONDER IF THAT, THAT TO ME WOULD BE AN ULTIMATE NO-NO. LIKE IF YOU'RE, I MEAN THE, THE ESTABLISHMENT ITSELF NOW, IF SOMEBODY'S STANDING OUTSIDE AND A TEENAGER ASKS THEM TO BUY IT FOR THEM, YOU KNOW, I DON'T, I DON'T, I DON'T, I DON'T KNOW THAT THE BUSINESS OWNER WOULD NECESSARILY. RIGHT. YOU KNOW, 'CAUSE LET'S BE HONEST, THAT HAPPENS WITH ALCOHOL. I'M SURE THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT, THAT THAT HAPPENS WITH. UM, BUT, BUT, BUT I THINK THAT SOMEWHERE A COUPLE YEARS AGO THEY DID SOME KIND OF STAYING OPERATION WHERE THEY DID RIGHT. WASN'T FOR ALCOHOL. MM-HMM. . YEAH. I THOUGHT THEY DID SOMETHING WITH VAPE SHOP TOO. I COULD ONLY, NO, ONE OF THE PLACES THEY BUSTED ALCOHOL SALES. WELL, WARREN COUNTY HAD IT, IT MADE THE PAPER ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO. IT WAS ALCOHOL SALES, BUT ONE OF THE PLACES THAT SOLD ALCOHOL THAT GOT BUSTED ALSO SOLD TOBACCO. OKAY. MAYBE THAT'S WHAT IT WAS. SO THAT'S WHAT IT WAS. BUT YEAH, I MEAN, SOMETHING WE COULD TALK TO THE COUNTY ABOUT TO, BECAUSE THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THE TOWN DOES. AND THEN ARE WE CONSIDERING THEN, UH, DO THEY SELL 'EM AT SEVEN LEVEL? GO THERE? WELL, THAT'S WHERE WITH THAT, THAT SQUARE FOOTAGE OF SALES AREA COULD COME INTO PLAY. OH. SO THERE'S, SO LIKE IF, IF IT'S SEVEN 11 AND THEY GOT LIKE ONE LITTLE DISPLAY, THEY'RE NOT GONNA BE CONSIDERED A BAIT SHOP. BUT SEE, BUT SEE, THEY, THEY STILL HAVE THE SUPPLY. SO IF YOU CAN'T, YOU KNOW, IF YOU CAN'T GET IT, IT AT THE VAPE SHOP THAT THAT CLOSES AT EIGHT, YOU'RE GONNA GO TO SEVEN 11 AT 10. YOU KNOW, SO I, I DON'T KNOW IF, IF THERE WAS A TAX, I'M JUST CURIOUS IF THERE WAS A TAX, WOULD THE FOLKS AT SEVEN 11 HAVE TO KEEP UP WITH TAXING THAT PRODUCT? SURE. RIGHT. JUST LIKE THEY DO THE CIGARETTES. RIGHT. RIGHT. I CAN'T SPEAK 11. IT COULD BE SHEETS OR YEAH. NO, NO, NO. IT COULD BE ANYBODY. THEY SELL THESE SUPPLIES WHEREVER THEY SELL CIGARETTES. IT'S IMPORTANT TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION. IT'S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT CLIENTELE THAT'S BUYING THEIR E-CIGARETTES AT A CONVENIENCE STORE. THAT IT IS THESE VAPE SHOPS. SO ONE OF THE THINGS TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION IS THE VAPE SHOPS ARE ALREADY SELLING CREON OR CREON, WHATEVER IT'S CALLED. AND THOSE THINGS, LIKE IF YOU GOT, I ENCOURAGE YOU ALL TO GO WALK INTO SOME OF THE ONES AROUND TOWN. THEY'RE SELLING MORE THAN JUST VAPE. THEY SELL REGULAR CIGARETTES, THEY SELL GUMMIES WITH STUFF IN 'EM. THEY SELL THE GUM, THEY SELL, I MEAN, THEY SELL THE HOOKAH AND THE BONGS AND FOR TOBACCO USE IS HOW IT'S ADVERTISED. SO THEY'RE SELLING A LOT MORE THAN VAPES. AND SO I DON'T THINK THAT THE PEOPLE WHO JUST WANT AN E-CIGARETTE THAT ALREADY DO THIS AND ARE LEGAL COMPLIANT ADULTS ARE GOING, I THINK THERE'S A DIFFERENT CLIENTELE FOR EACH. AND HONESTLY, AND, AND TO FEED, TO, TO REITERATE WHAT YOU WERE SAYING BEFORE, E-CIGARETTES EVEN BECAME A THING. WE HAD TWO TOBACCO SHOP. I MEAN, THERE WAS A TOBACCO SHOP IN THE MARTIN SHOPPING CENTER AND THERE WAS ONE OUT, UM, LIKE CROOKED RUN AND THEY SOLD TOBACCO PRODUCTS PIPE, YOU KNOW, UM, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? PAPERS TO WRAP UP. YEAH. ALL KINDS OF, SO I, I'M, YOU KNOW, I, I JUST WANNA CLAW BACK A LITTLE BIT AND SAY LIKE, I'M, YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY'S 19 YEARS OLD AND THEY WANT TO, YOU KNOW, PURCHASE PIPE TOBACCO. I THOUGHT CIGARETTES ARE 21 NOW. SO YOU SEE HOW MUCH I PAY ATTENTION TO IT. DON'T YOU DON'T SMOKE. YEAH. IF YOU DON'T SMOKE, IT'S HARD TO KEEP UP WITH THAT STUFF. WELL, WHEN YOU SEE, SO THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, THE TAXES. IT'S COSTING US TAXPAYERS ON THE COUNTY LEVEL AS IT IS. I MEAN, WE JUST PAID FOR IT. THE NEW COUNTY TAX INCREASES ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOL BUDGET EVERY SINGLE DAY. SO BACK TO THIS, WHAT DO YOU WANT LAUREN TO EXPLORE? I'M GONNA GO THROUGH THAT. I'M JUST GONNA SAY ALL THOSE THINGS UP THERE WERE YAY OR NAY. OH, WELL, HOW ABOUT FIRST ONE SQUARE FOOTAGE OF SALES AREA? DO YOU ALL, IS THAT A YAY? OR LIKE, WOULD YOU LIKE FOR HER TO EXPLORE THAT? BRIAN, WHAT WERE YOU GONNA SAY? I WOULD SAY YES, BUT BECAUSE THE VAPE SHOPS, THEY SELL MORE THAN JUST THE PRODUCT ITSELF. THEY SELL ALL THESE ACCESSORIES. YEAH. IS THAT GOING TO INCLUDE OR THE ACCESSORIES INCLUDED IN THAT SQUARE FOOTAGE? OR IS IT, I'LL HAVE TO DIG INTO THAT. THE STUFF THAT IS WELL, AND, AND WHEN WE TAKE THIS TO A WORK SESSION, BECAUSE YOU GUYS WILL BE THE ONE VETTING THIS MORE SO THAN STAFF. UM, WE CAN HAVE THAT DISCUSSION. SO I'LL PULL SOME OF THE ORDINANCES THAT HAVE DONE THAT. I BELIEVE VIRGINIA BEACH HAS DONE THAT. I THINK THEY'RE ONE OF THE FIRST JURISDICTIONS TO LOOK AT IT BY, UH, SQUARE FOOTAGE. IS IT KIND OF GO THROUGH AND LOOKING AT SQUARE FOOTAGE. IF IT'S ONLY 20% OF THE ACTUAL VAPOR PRODUCT AND THEY'RE WITHIN THAT 20%, [00:30:02] BUT THE REST OF THE STORE IS ALL THE ACCESSORIES OF THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF PAYS, WHO PAYS ALL THAT OTHER STUFF THAT DOESN'T FALL UNDER THAT PRODUCT, THEN 20% MIGHT BE TOO MUCH. SO YOU'RE GONNA EXPLORE THAT ONE. EXPLORE. GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP. ALL RIGHT. WHAT ABOUT DISTANCE FROM SCHOOLS PER CHURCHES, DAYCARES, PARKS, AS FAR AS LEGAL POSSIBLE. OKAY. PEOPLE ARE NOT HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT THAT AS AN EDUCATOR. YEP. IS EVERYBODY OKAY WITH HER EXPLORING THAT? UM, AND THEN I KNOW I'M GONNA BE THE ODD ONE NOW, BUT NO, I THINK BECAUSE OF SO MANY THINGS THAT ARE CONSIDERED A, A CHURCH OR A RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION OR A PLACE OF WORSHIP, THAT'S GONNA BE A LITTLE BIT HARDER. YEAH. AS SCHOOLS I'M IN FAVOR OF ALSO, WHAT ABOUT SCHOOLS? DAYCARES, PARK, PARK. YOU ALSO HAVE IN-HOME DAYCARES WITH LICENSES THROUGHOUT THE TOWN. SO I JUST THINK THAT'S GONNA ALSO BE AN ISSUE. I MEAN, I, I'M WILLING TO BE THE ODD MAN OUT ON THAT ONE, BUT I THINK SCHOOLS IS THE ONLY ONE FOR NUMBER TWO. BUT I THINK LET IT BE KNOWN ON RECORD. YOU AND I ACTUALLY AGREE ON SOMETHING HERE. I THINK THAT, I DON'T THINK THAT'S A FAR BETWEEN . I'M JUST LIKE, WHAT? NO, I'M JUST, BUT, BUT I MEAN, MY BIGGEST CONCERN IS KEEPING AWAY FROM MY KIDS. RIGHT. AND I'M LOOKING AT 15TH STREET SCHOOL, I'M LOOKING AT AS ROADS. YEAH. AND THAT'S TOO DANG CLOSE. YEAH. FOR ME IT'S SCHOOLS. I THINK CHURCHES, PARKS, WHAT ABOUT PARKS? BECAUSE I DON'T SEE A TON OF ADULTS HANGING, PLAYING AS OUR, WE HAVE NEEDLES ALL OVER OUR PARK. I, WHICH WELL, GOOD CHURCHES HAVE DAYCARES. I MEAN THEY, THEY HAVE, YOU KNOW, UM, SCHOOL CENTER. BUT PARENTS HAVE MORE CONTROL OVER THAT. YEAH. IF I, I MEAN, MY CONCERN WHEN I STARTED LOOKING AT WHAT'S GOING ON AT DIVERSIFIED MINES AND, AND, AND, AND, AND, AND WHATEVER I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THE ACCESS THAT KIDS AT LIKE THE FIFTH FISH, ESPECIALLY THE 15TH STREET SCHOOL, WHEN I LOOK AT THE ACCESS THAT THEY HAVE, THAT THEY CAN GO DOWN THERE AND GET SOME GUY TO GO IN THERE AND BUY CRAFT, WHOEVER. AND I'D BE WILLING TO, 50% OF THEIR ENROLLMENT AT DIVERSIFIED MINES HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM THE SCHOOLS FOR THE, WHETHER IT'S THHC OR NICOTINE BECAUSE THERE'S AN AUTOMATIC 10 DAY SUSPENSION NOW. AND THEN I WITH THAT, IT'S, YOU HAVE TO GO BEFORE DIVERSIFIED MINES. SO I THINK THERE'S IN, IN-HOME DAYCARES IN SCHOOLS AND HOMESCHOOLERS. I JUST THINK THAT'S TOO MUCH INTO THE WEEDS OF IT. PERSONALLY. I WOULD JUST LIKE TO SEE IT AWAY FROM SCHOOLS. WOULD IT BE REASONABLE TO PUT A OCCUPANCY FOR DAYCARES IF IT'S A DAYCARE THAT HAS LESS THAN 20 OR 15? WELL, NO. HOME DAYCARE'S GONNA HAVE 20. RIGHT. I MEAN, I'M JUST SAYING MY MOM RAN, MY MOM RAN AN IN-HOME DAYCARE. I UNDERSTAND THAT MOST SHE PROBABLY EVER, EVER YOU SAY TO EXCLUDED. YEAH. NO, I KNOW. THAT'S WHY I'M SAYING SO IF YOU DID A, IF YOU DID SOMETHING LIKE A LESS THAN 10, I, IT, IT IS MESSY. THAT'S WHAT I WAS TRYING TO KEEP IT SIMPLE FOR STAFF. WHAT IF YOU HAD A DAYCARE RIGHT BEHIND THEIR PIZZA? YEAH. WE CAN MOVE IN THERE TOMORROW AND START A DAYCARE NOW THEY CAN'T HAVE THEIR SHOP NO. THEIR GRANDFATHER INTO GRAND IN. IT'S THAT SOMEBODY CAN'T. BUT I DON'T THINK WE ALSO FOR 17 MORE. SO I THINK THAT'S WHY IT'S IMPORTANT TO DO THAT. I DIDN'T THINK WE HAVE FOR 17. I THINK IF WE CHANGE THIS FOR NEW INCOMING ONES AND CHANGE THE, THE FINANCIAL ASPECT, WHETHER THAT'S LICENSING AND OR TAXES, I THINK IT HELPS BOTH YOU AND, AND EXISTING. WELL, I, I THINK WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT WHAT'S REASONABLE TOO. SO IT, YOU KNOW WHO, WHO IS VAPING, RIGHT? YOUR, YOUR 4-YEAR-OLD GOING TO A DAYCARE IS NOT VAPING PROBABLY. AND THEY ARE NOT WALKING INDEPENDENTLY OR SNEAKING ANYWHERE, RIGHT? MM-HMM. . IT'S YOUR, YOU KNOW, TEENAGERS. AND SO THE SCHOOLS, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THEY CAN WALK BACK AND FORTH TO THE SCHOOLS AND THEY, THAT'S A, A HIGH RISK CHURCHES, THEY'RE PROBABLY BEING SUPERVISED IF THEY'RE GOING TO CHURCH AS A TEENAGER, THEY'RE PROBABLY GOING WITH THEIR PARENTS. 'CAUSE YOU KNOW, IT'S HARD ENOUGH AGAIN TO GO TO CHURCH ANYWAY, YOU KNOW? RIGHT. SO I, I REALLY FEEL LIKE LET'S PICK THE ONES THAT ARE REASONABLE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THAT ARE AT RISK. MM-HMM. , YOU KNOW. YEAH, THAT'S A GOOD POINT. IT IS. THE TYPE OF PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING, YOU'RE RIGHT. I MEAN, CHURCH GOERS AREN'T, I MEAN, I DON'T THINK MOST KIDS ARE GOING, PARENTS ARE GONNA BE LIKE, WELL LET'S DROP YOU OFF AT THE VAPE SHOP. . RIGHT. DROP YOU ON THE WAY AND GET YOUR BALL ON THE WAY TO IT. IT'S WHEN THEY, IT'S THE OPPORTUNITY OF WHEN THEY CAN SNEAK AND DO IT. YEAH. BUT I'M GONNA SAY THE, I'M GONNA TELL YOU ABOUT PARKS AND NOT PARKS, LIKE WHAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED. KIDS HANG OUT AT PARKS OUT THEIR PARENTS. IF DON'T BELIEVE THAT GO TO CHIMNEY FIELD. I MEAN, I WAS GONNA SAY, I I'M JUST SAYING THERE'S TONS OF PEOPLE OUT THERE BEING CROSSED, YOU KNOW, SO, AND YOU'VE GOT THE YOUTH CENTER THERE NOW TOO. RIGHT. SO, YOU KNOW, SO [00:35:02] I'M SURE THEY'LL HAVE A VAPE DETECTOR IN THERE TOO. THEY SAID THAT WAS THEIR PLAN. SO TALKING ABOUT VAPE SHOPS OR ARE WE TALKING ABOUT VAPING? JUST VAPING. VAPE SHOP. VAPE SHOPS. SHOPS. YEAH. VAPE SHOPS I WAS TALKING ABOUT. YEAH. SOMEBODY'S WALKING BY AN ADULT VAPING. RIGHT? YEAH. OKAY. WELL THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT VAPE SHOPS. OKAY. SO IT SOUNDS LIKE PEOPLE WOULD EXPLORE DISTANCE FROM SCHOOLS OR PARKS AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE DISTANCE IS. YOU'RE GONNA LOOK AROUND, SEE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK IS REASONABLE. UM, WHAT ABOUT A BAN IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT? ABSOLUTELY. OKAY. I MEAN, YOU CAN'T HAVE A SHINGLED ROOF. YEAH. WHY CAN YOU HAVE A VAPE SHOP? OKAY. SUP IN THE INSURANCE COURT. ABSOLUTELY. SO THEY WOULD HAVE TO HAVE A SPECIAL USE PERMIT IF THEY WANTED TO PUT A SHOP IN THE INSURANCE COURT. THAT'S LOW HANGING FRUIT. WE OUGHT TO DO THAT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. YEAH. BEFORE SOMEBODY MOVES INTO THE OLD STOKES IS MARKED AND HAS A LINE OF VAPES. YEAH. I'M WITH YOU. SOONER RATHER THAN LATER. SORRY LAUREN. IT'S OH, FOR THE HISTORIC, I WAS LIKE, THAT'S NOT AN ENTRY CORRIDOR. YEAH, NO. YEAH. OKAY. SO THE OTHER THINGS THAT WE HEARD, SO WHAT DO YOU, UM, POSSIBLY DOING A PERCENTAGE OF NO, WAIT, I GOT THAT. OH NO, IT WAS MELISSA'S IDEA, MEANING LIKE A PERCENTAGE OF OUR TOTAL BUSINESSES IN TOWN BEING LIMITED WITH A PERCENTAGE. I'M THROWING THIS OUT THERE. I'M NOT SAYING, BUT LIKE, IF WE SAID ONLY 10% OF OUR BUSINESS LICENSES COULD BE VAPE CHOPS OR 20% OR WHATEVER, LIKE 2%. WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR 2%? I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE PERCENT IS. I'M JUST SAYING, IS THAT SOMETHING Y'ALL WOULD WANNA ENTERTAIN? WELL, MY MY REACTION TO THAT IS THAT THAT IS A TOTALLY MOVING TARGET BECAUSE SOMEBODY GETS A BUSINESS LICENSE AND THEN THEY GO OUTTA BUSINESS. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW IT. BUT KEPT LICENSE. SO I DON'T KNOW HOW ENFORCEABLE THAT WE TO WORK ON THAT TYPE OF LIKE, TRACKING ON STAFF SET. UM, BECAUSE DO WE EVEN KNOW WHEN THEY GO, WE DON'T KNOW WHEN THEY GO OUT OF BUSINESS UNTIL THEY DON'T FILE FOR THEIR, DON'T PAY THEIR NEXT FEES. AND THAT WOULD BE ANYHOW. THAT WOULD BE FINE. AND MY OTHER THING WITH ALL OF THESE WERE WHEN I SAID SCHOOLS ONLY VERSUS CHURCHES, BAKERS, AND IN THE WEEDS OF IT, IS TO KEEP IT EASIEST TO ENFORCE AND FOR STAFF. BECAUSE WHEN I GOT ON COUNCIL THERE WERE LIKE 90 PLUS THINGS IN THE TOWN CODE THAT WERE NOT BEING ENFORCED. RIGHT. SO I DON'T SEE THE POINT IN WRITING USELESS CODE THAT WE DON'T HAVE THE STAFF TO MAINTAIN. SO THE SQUARE FOOTAGE AND THE PERCENTAGE, WHILE I LIKE BOTH OF THEM, I DON'T THINK THAT THE TOWN HAS THE MANPOWER TO ENFORCE EITHER OF THOSE. I THINK THE MORE, I THINK THE MORE ENFORCEABLE AND EASIER THING TO DICTATE AND TO KEEP TRACK OF IS THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE VAPE SHOPS. YEP. AND IF WE WOULD'VE, THAT WAS NEXT. IF WE WOULD'VE HAD THAT, WE WOULDN'T BE IN THE POSITION RIGHT NOW. SO THE NEXT THING WAS DISTANCE BETWEEN VAPE SHOPS. IS EVERYBODY GOOD WITH US EXPLORING THAT? OKAY. AND MAYBE, I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE DIS 'CAUSE YOU KNOW, WE REALLY ARE ONLY A 10 MILE RADIUS IN THE TOWN. YOU KNOW, I MEAN, WE'VE GOT SEVEN ON ONE STREET. NO, I KNOW, BUT I'M SAYING THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT, YOU KNOW, UM, THE NEXT RIGHT, THAT'S A YES. I'M JUST CHECKING THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE SAID. DATA FOR, UH, INCREASING THE TAX, THE PURCHASING TAX, I THINK YOU CALLED IT LICENSING TAX, TOBACCO LICENSING FEE. WELL, WE SAID DIFFERENT. YOU SAID PURCHASING TAX AT ONE POINT SAID LICENSING FEE. I, OKAY, THAT'S TWO DIFFERENT. I SAID THE TAX TOBACCO, TOBACCO LICENSING TAX WOULD BE SOMETHING THEY'D PAY EACH YEAR TO BE ABLE TO SELL IT. RIGHT. I THOUGHT PEOPLE WERE ALSO SUGGESTING THAT ANYTIME SOMEBODY BOUGHT, I DID A, A PRODUCT THAT THERE WOULD BE A LOCAL TAX. I DID. OKAY. SO THERE WERE TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS. ONE'S A LICENSING FEE. OKAY. A TOBACCO LICENSING FEE. SO IF YOU'RE OPERATING A TOBACCO RETAIL OUTLET EVERY YEAR WHEN YOU PAY YOUR FEE TO OPERATE THAT, THAT'S WHAT BRUCE SUGGESTED. OKAY. AND I SUGGESTED THE LOCAL TAX. ALL RIGHT, LET'S START WITH LICENSING FEE. PEOPLE WANNA ENTERTAIN THAT. NOT WANNA ENTERTAIN THAT. THEY'D BE PAYING IT EVERY YEAR. YEP. BRIAN? YES. THE LICENSING FEE, IS THAT A REQUIREMENT OF HOW MUCH TOBACCO YOU'RE GONNA BE SELLING? IS JUST A FLAT. IS IF YOU SELL SOMETHING THAT SAYS TOBACCO IN IT, THEN YOU PAY THIS. OKAY. HOW OTHER PLACES HAVE DONE IT? I THINK, DON'T QUOTE ME ON THAT. WE, I'M GONNA PUT A CHECK THAT YOU'RE GONNA EXPLORE IT. OKAY. AND SOME OF THESE THINGS, LIKE MOST OF THE TAX STUFF IS GONNA BE LIKE AT, TALK ABOUT THAT AT WORK SESSION WITH TOWN COUNCIL FOR COUNCIL. RIGHT. MY THOUGHT IS, IS WE'LL BRING PLANNING COMMISSION AND STAFF WILL BRING AN ORDINANCE, A DRAFT ORDINANCE. WE'LL WORK IT THROUGH THE PROCESS THERE. OKAY. AND MAYBE SOME OF THESE OTHER THINGS YOU COULD GET FINANCING FINANCE TO BE LOOKING AT IT. 'CAUSE I THINK WE'RE NEVER GONNA GET THIS BRAIN POWER TOGETHER AGAIN TO DISCUSS THESE THINGS. SO WHILE PEOPLE ARE THINKING ABOUT IT, I'LL BE HONEST WITH YOU, I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS FOR TWO OR THREE YEARS. SO PEOPLE ARE IN THE RIGHT FRAME OF MIND. SO THESE ARE THINGS, LICENSING [00:40:01] FEE PEOPLE SAID THEY'D ENTERTAIN OR WE COULD ENTERTAIN. WHAT ABOUT A PURCHASING TAX? I'M BLESSED IN FAVOR OF THAT JUST BECAUSE I DON'T REALLY GO FOR STUDENT TAXES. OKAY. ALL ANYBODY ELSE LET I, OKAY. I'M A FORMER SMOKER. I JUST THINK BEING RESPONSIBLE IS ONE OF THE THINGS. I MEAN, I THINK, YOU KNOW, WITH THEM INCREASING IT TO 21 TO TRY TO DISCOURAGE THE YOUTH FROM IT. I MEAN THEY'RE WE'RE ALREADY BEING BURDENED WITH THE SYNTAX WITH MEALS TAX. I MEAN, COUNCILMAN LLOYD AND I WANTED TO DO AWAY WITH THE LOCAL MEALS TAX. 'CAUSE IT'S ONLY BURDENING LOCALS WHO EAT OUT FOR THE MOST PART, NOT THE PEOPLE WHO PASS THROUGH IT WAS HIGHLY OPPOSED. I GET IT. BUT I MEAN, THERE'S A LOT OF UNNECESSARY TAXES IN VIRGINIA AND THAT ONE ALREADY EXISTS. SO I DON'T THINK INCREASING IT IS ADDING, I DON'T THINK IT'S A NEW ONE. DISCRIMINATORY OR A NUANCE RATHER. WHAT ELSE? I WOULD HAVE TO SAY ON THE TAX SIDE, I COULDN'T FIND THE ARTICLE, BUT IT WAS THERE. MAYBE WE HAD THE SAME DIRECTION. NO, I, I READ IT. I'M SHOCKED. SHOCKED. I READ IT. I'M SURE THAT, BUT THEN WHEN I PUT IN THERE CIGARETTE TAX, IT GOES BACK TO 2018, 19. AND THE TOWN COUNCIL AND THE COUNTY AND THE COUNTY HAD IN, THEY HAD TO BE IT, THE ARTICLE SUGGESTED STEVE BURKE WAS THE TOWN MANAGER, THAT THEY HAD TO BE ON THE SAME PAGE BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T WANT THE COUNTY CHARGING 25 CENTS A PACK AND THE TOWN DOING 50 CENTS. ALL IT'S GONNA DO IS DRIVE YOUR CONSUMERS TO THE NEXT COUNTY. WELL OUT TO THE COUNTY TO BUY THE CIGARETTES. BUT THERE'S ONLY WHAT, TWO IN THE COUNTY AND 17 IN TOWN. SO IF WE DROVE THEM OUT AND SHUT THE 17 DOWN, THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY A BAD THING. BUT AGAIN, I GET THE CONCEPT BEHIND IT. BUT IN 18, WE DIDN'T HAVE 17 IN TOWN AND THEY HAD NONE IN THE COUNTY, I BELIEVE. WELL, THEY HAD THE ONE IN RIVERTON COMMONS, WHICH WAS MAINLY FOR PEOPLE WHO ROLLED THEIR OWN CIGARETTES. YOU CAN BUY LOOSE TOBACCO THERE. WELL, AND SOME ARE COMING IN AND HAVING LIKE A DELI WITH IT OR LIKE, TOO, SO LIKE WE HAVE, WE HAVE ONE THAT APPLIED WITH A DELI. WE A VAPE SHOP WITH A DELI. SO TAKE THE 17 AND IN STRIDE. I MEAN, I JUST DID A QUICK SEARCH. I DID NOT PULL THE EXACT PERMITS. BUT YOUR GUMMIES TODAY WITH YOUR MIGHT. ALL RIGHT. SO, SO WE'RE HEARING PEOPLE TALK. WHAT ARE, WHAT ARE OTHER PEOPLE'S THOUGHTS ABOUT, WE DID HAVE SOME DISCUSSION. I HEARD, I WROTE DOWN SIGNS AND LIGHTING. LET'S GO GO BACK TO THE TAX. I NEED TO CHECK. THEY HAVE TO BE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE WITH THE COUNTY. IT'S DEAD IN THE WATER. YEAH. WE DON'T GET MUCH DONE MUTUALLY. YEAH. BUT, BUT I AGREE. I JUST BROUGHT IT UP. I DID. I WASN'T HEAR, I DON'T KNOW. BUT I WILL SAY THIS THOUGH, KIND OF LIKE WHAT SHE SAID. SO THEN IF EVERYBODY GOES OUT TO THE COUNTY TO PURCHASE IT, 'CAUSE THEY DON'T WANNA PAY THE EXTRA TAX, YOU KNOW, THEY MIGHT SHUT DOWN FREE. IT'S A FREE MARKET. LIKE PEOPLE BUY OR BUY WHERE THEY'RE GONNA BUY. YOU KNOW, SOME PEOPLE DRIVE TO WALMART AND INSTEAD MARTIN. IS THAT THEIR CHOICE? UM, SO I, I'M JUST TRYING TO GET A FEEL FOR WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK ABOUT THE, THE TAX OR NO? SO I'VE HEARD A A YES, YES, A NO. WHAT IS, WHAT ARE OTHER PEOPLE'S THOUGHTS? IT'S WORTH EXPLORING. I THINK WORTH EXPLORING BRIAN. JUST YEAH. OR NO, I'M NOT, THIS ISN'T A VOTE, BUT THIS IS JUST, SHOULD WE I'M GOOD WITH THAT. NO, YOU'RE GOOD WITH THAT. I HAVE TO DIE ON EITHER. I KNOW, I KNOW, I KNOW THAT, I KNOW THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY SOMETHING. SO I ANSWER THE, SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT THAT, THAT THAT TYPE OF TAX IS A TAX ON, ON, ON, ON THE POOR. MM. I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU COULD SMOKE IF YOU'RE POOR IN THIS ECONOMY. UH, I DON'T KNOW. I'M JUST SAYING, I DUNNO IF THEY'RE OUT THERE BEGGING MONEY AND SMOKING. AND I WILL ADD FOR THIS COUNCIL, NOT TO INTERRUPT, BUT I THINK BJ INFORMED US AT TWO YEARS AGO AT OUR RETREAT. THE TAX IS ALREADY VERY STEEP. I THINK IT'S 28%. YEAH. I COULD JUST HEAR MY, MY, MY LATE AUNT, I LOVED HER, BUT SHE SMOKED HER WHOLE LIFE AND SMOKED LIKE A SMOKED, LIKE IT WAS HER JOB. OH. MY DAD JUST TRIED CALLING. HE PROBABLY WATCHING, HE'S A SMOKE AND SHE WOULD SAY, THAT'S NOT FAIR. THEY'RE ONLY TAXING US. WHY AREN'T THEY TAXING PEOPLE THAT OVEREAT AND WHY? I LOVED HER. I LOVE HER. BUT SHE, SHE FELT LIKE THAT THEY WERE SINGLING HER OUT. BUT YOU KNOW, SHE STARTED SMOKING WHEN SHE WAS 15. WE'VE GOT A MAYOR UP THERE THAT, YEAH. YEAH. SO, SO INCREASED TAX OR NO. YEAH. OR NO, WE WILL EXPLORE IT. WE'LL EXPLORE IT. UH, LET'S SEE. AND THE OTHER THING, I THINK THAT WAS ALL OF 'EM. I I THINK SIGNS AND LIGHTING, SIGNS AND LIGHTING, LIGHTING, LIGHTING. THEY'RE ALREADY, WE CAN ADD TO THE EXISTING CODE. THAT WOULD BE, THAT WOULD BE AN ISSUE FOR YOU. WE'VE ALREADY STARTED INCORPORATING A NEW LIKE MODEL SIGN ORDINANCE INTO THE DAY DRAFT. SO WE, I THINK WE'VE TAKEN CARE OF SIGNS. SIGNS AND LIGHTING. UM, OKAY. AND THEN LIGHTING, WE ALREADY RESTRICT THE FLASHING LIGHTS. THEY BY HOURS. RIGHT? AND THEY'RE NO, IT'S NOT BY HOURS. IT'S BY IN THE DRAFT. OH, IN THE DRAFT. OKAY. I'M SORRY. YEAH, SORRY. WE CAN DO THAT. BUT WE'VE [00:45:01] ALSO, LIKE THERE ARE NUMEROUS CITATIONS OUT THERE NOW FOR THE LIGHTS. LIKE, BUT SOME OF 'EM KEEP, LIKE THERE'S ONE THAT STILL HAS FLASHING LIGHTS EVEN THOUGH THEY'VE BEEN FIVE HOURS IN SOME OF THE LAURIE, ONE THING THAT WAS MENTIONED THAT WE HAVEN'T COME BACK TO CIRCLE BACK TO, I THINK IS THE IDEA OF LICENSE REVOCATIONS FOR CERTAIN INFRACTIONS. YOU'RE RIGHT, WE DIDN'T IT'S OVER HERE. THAT UP. YOU WANNA LOOK THAT UP? ALL RIGHT. SO YOU'RE GONNA GET US IN FOR YEAH, WE'LL, ALL RIGHT. DO YOU HAVE ENOUGH? YOU PROBABLY HAVE TOO MUCH. THE GOAL WAS TO GIVE LAUREN INFORMATION WHAT MELISSA, AT THE BEGINNING BROUGHT UP POPULATION GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION IN TERMS OF LIMITING YOUR NUMBER OF POTENTIAL, UM, DATES. YES. HEARD. THEN CONNIE MADE THE COMMENT THAT IT WOULD BE TOO HARD TO DO BECAUSE HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN TO MAKE THOSE OUTTA OUTTA BUSINESS? 'CAUSE IT'S A MOVING TARGET AS THE BUSINESS IS GOING IN AND OUT. SHE DID THAT WAS WE DID, YEAH, WE WENT OVER THAT. YEAH. OKAY. SO I THINK SHE THOUGHT, I THINK THAT IDEA. NO, THAT, THAT, I HEARD THAT IT'S GOOD IN THEORY, BUT WE TALKED ABOUT WE DON'T HAVE THE STAFF TO ENFORCE IT BECAUSE IF 10 PEOPLE CLOSE THE BUSINESS IN ONE YEAR, BUT IT WAS JUST TO PUT A CAP ON, THERE WILL NEVER BE ANY MORE THAN X NUMBER OF VAPE SHOPS. 17. DO WE WANNA, WE COULD SAY, AH, YOU KNOW, IN THE FUTURE, YOU KNOW, THE ONLY PROBLEM WITH THAT 17 IS IF THREE OF THEM CLOSE, THAT STILL LEAVES THE ROOM. IF YOU, THEY COULD OPEN UP AS SOME OTHER TYPE OF RETAIL. IF YOU ALSO DON'T THEN REGULATE THE SALES, THE FLOOR AREA OF IT. RIGHT. SHE'S GOT A PLANE, WHICH WE DID. SO THEY'LL CALL IT SOMETHING ELSE. I THOUGHT WE DID WANNA EXPLORE THE SQUARE FOOTAGE. YEAH, WE ARE EXPLORING THAT. YEAH. BUT THEN I THOUGHT YOU SAID, WE DID TALK ABOUT HOW VIRGINIA BEACH DID IT. GO AHEAD. IF WE JUST SAID THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT REGULATING OR TAXING THE SPECIFIC PRODUCTS, THEN WOULD THAT COVER IF A, IF AN, IF A JUST DECIDE TO RENAME ITSELF AS SOMETHING ELSE OTHER THAN A VAPE SHOP? UH, IT WOULDN'T DISCOURAGE IT BECAUSE IF YOU OPEN A DELI THAT'S 200 SQUARE FEET AND HAVE TWO FOOT OF A STAND WITH VAPE STUFF, IT'S ALLOWED, THE TAX WOULD BE ON THE PRODUCT, NOT NECESSARILY THE STORE NAME. RIGHT. IDENTIFY LIKE WHAT IT IS NOW. DON'T IDENTIFY AS A VAPE SHOP. THEY THEMSELVES OR THE PRODUCT TYPE TAX THING. THEY'RE GONNA DO BOTH. YEAH, I THINK THAT WAS IT, RIGHT? YEAH. SO THERE WERE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, MICHAEL. THERE WAS THE LICENSE SINK FEE. THAT WOULD BE OBVIOUSLY FOR A VAPE SHOP OR FOR SQUARE FOOT, BUT THE PRO PUR, THE THE TAX ON THE ACTUAL PURCHASE WOULD BE ANY PRODUCT THAT IS E-CIGARETTE. CIGARETTE, RIGHT? YES. IS THAT IT? OKAY. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WELL, AND, AND I MEAN, WE ALL KNOW THAT EVERYTHING THAT WE COME UP WITH, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMETHING NEW THAT WE DIDN'T ANTICIPATE THAT WE'LL HAVE TO ADDRESS LATER. BUT AT LEAST WE CAN GET SOMETHING IN, IN GOING, YOU KNOW? YEAH. AND I JUST WANT, I WANNA SAY TOO, IN ALL THIS CONVERSATION, WHEN PEOPLE SAY TAX TAX, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE JUST TRYING TO TAX, I JUST HOPE THAT PEOPLE RECOGNIZE THAT REALLY THIS DISCUSSION HAS BEEN BORN OUT OF THE FRUSTRATION OF THE CITIZENS WHO ARE UPSET ABOUT THERE BEING 17 VAPE SHOPS IN OUR COMMUNITY. AND THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T WANNA BE KNOWN AS, YOU KNOW, THE VAPE CAPITAL OF THE WORLD. ALTHOUGH FROM PLACES I'VE BEEN LATELY, I DON'T, I THINK EVERYBODY IS DEALING WITH THE SAME THING. SO IT'S NOT JUST US, BUT I JUST WANNA MAKE THAT, YEAH, I JUST WANNA SAY THAT THIS IS, NOBODY'S SITTING HERE TRYING TO GET EXTRA MONEY. IT'S NOT ABOUT THAT. IT'S ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE HOPING THAT THEY STOP BUYING 'EM AND SPENDING THE MONEY ON 'EM. . ALRIGHT, NEXT TOPIC WAS P AND DS. UM, AND I'M GONNA LET LAUREN, UM, UH, TALK TO US ABOUT WHAT SHE, WHAT, WHAT THE GOAL IS TONIGHT. OBVIOUSLY IT'S A DISCUSSION, BUT OTHER THINGS. SO GO AHEAD. LAST WEEK WHEN WE SENT OUT THE PACKET, I INCLUDED, UM, SOME BACKGROUND INFORMATION ON P AND D. I WANTED EVERYBODY TO LOOK AT IT FOR IT, HARD TO DIGEST IT. UM, AND THEN STAFF ALSO PROVIDED A FEW OTHER, UH, JUST NEARBY JURISDICTIONS, THEIR ORDINANCES AND HOW THEY LOOK AT P AND D. UM, BUT BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, WE'RE HERE ZONING'S PURPOSES, YOU KNOW, HEALTH, SAFETY, WELFARE THERE. UM, AND IN ZONING, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THE BUY RIGHT AND THEN WE HAVE DISCRETIONARY AND DISCRETIONARY FOR US IS THE LEGISLATIVE APPROVAL. SO THAT'S, UH, THE ADDITIONAL, SORRY, SPECIAL USE PERMITS. UM, OUR REZONINGS, THOSE ACTIVITIES AND WHAT THE PND ZONE ALLOWS IS FOR FLEXIBILITY AND, UH, MECHANISM FOR NEGOTIATION THAT OUR STANDARD ZONING [00:50:01] ORDINANCE DOESN'T PERMIT. SO IN OUR, EACH OF OUR LIKE RESIDENTIAL ZONES, COMMERCIAL ZONES, INDUSTRIAL ZONES, WE HAVE STANDARDS. THEY ARE LOT SIZE STANDARDS, SETBACKS, THEY'RE ALL DIMENSIONAL STANDARDS. AND WE REGULATE USES THIS ALLOW THE P AND D ALLOWS YOU TO, WHAT'S THE WORD? UM, IT ALLOWS YOU TO LIKE, TO MAKE IT SPECIFIC TO THAT SITE. MAKE SURE THAT THE DEVELOPMENT THAT'S COMING IN IS BENEFICIAL TO THE COMMUNITY AND FITS THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, FITS THE SITE APPROPRIATELY. UM, SO WITH OUR PND ORDINANCE ADOPTED THIS IN 2005, WE HAVE ONE PARCEL IN TOWN THAT IS CURRENTLY ZONED P AND D BUT HAS NOT BEEN DEVELOPED. BUT THE INTENTION HERE WAS TO ALLOW LAND NEIGHBORHOOD DEVELOPMENT ON LARGE TRACKS OF LAND CHARACT FOR UNIFIED SITE DESIGN FOR A VARIETY OF HOUSING TYPES AND DENSITIES, CLUSTERING COMMON OPEN SPACE AND MIX OF BUILDING TYPES AND LAND USES. UM, AND THEN IT, IT ALLOWS SOME, UM, LIKE IT ALLOWS SOME RELIEF FROM THE ZONING ORDINANCE ON SOME OF THE DENSITY REQUIREMENTS. SO THEN THIS JUST SHOWS WITH THE P AND D, IT ALLOWS YOU TO PRESERVE SOME OF THE OPEN SPACE. THAT WAS ONE OF THE INITIAL GOALS OF P AND D AND CLUSTER ZONING IS TO CONSERVE LIKE NATURAL RESOURCES. SO THAT REC TO LINEAR CURVE, LINEAR, THAT'S YOUR STANDARD. THOSE YOUR STANDARD LIKE DIMENSIONAL, UM, REQUIREMENTS IN YOUR TYPICAL ZONE, THE P AND D OR CLUSTER PROVISIONS ALLOW YOU TO GET THE SAME NUMBER OF UNITS IN A SMALLER SPACE. UM, WITH THE TOWN ORDINANCE, OUR UM, ORDINANCE ALLOW OR SETS THE GOALS. SO ELIMINATE THE STANDARD DIMENSIONAL REQUIREMENTS, PROMOTE THE EFFICIENT USE OF LAND, INNOVATIVE COMBINATION OF HOUSING, RECREATION AND COMMERCIAL USE OF, UH, CONSERVE THE NATURAL ENVIRONMENT AND THEN BE WALKABLE AND PEDESTRIAN FRIENDLY. THOSE ARE OUTLINED IN OUR ORDINANCE. AND THEN WE PROVIDE THE EVALUATION CRITERIA FOR PLANNING COMMISSION AND TOWN COUNCIL TO JUDGE THESE APPLICATIONS BY, UM, WE OUTLINE PERMITTED USES. SO IN OUR P AND D ZONE, UM, YOU ATTACH SINGLE FAMILY DWELLINGS, TWO FAMILY DWELLING, MULTIFAMILY DWELLING IN TOWNHOUSES, UP TO EIGHT UNITS PER STRUCTURE ARE PERMITTED BY, RIGHT? THAT'S JUST ALLOWED. THEN YOU HAVE THE ACCESSORY USES WHICH ARE PERMITTED, WHICH GO INTO YOUR RECREATION FACILITIES, RETIREMENT, LIVING FACILITIES, MUNICIPAL BUILDINGS, PUBLIC UTILITIES, HOME OCCUPATIONS, LIBRARIES, CHURCHES, SCHOOLS, DAYCARES. AND YOU HAVE, UM, PROVISIONS WHERE IF THE SITE IS 50 ACRES OR LARGER, YOU CAN THEN GET COMMERCIAL USES IN THERE, WHICH ARE YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD ORIENTED COMMERCIAL BUSINESSES. THESE ARE YOUR LITTLE LOCAL LIKE SHOPS, MARKETS, PERSONAL SERVICES, A HAIR SALON OR NAIL SALON, UH, BUSINESS OR PROFESSIONAL OFFICES, NEIGHBORHOOD RESTAURANTS AND BANKS. UM, AND THEN YOU HAVE THESE SPECIAL USES, WHICH WOULD BE SPECIAL USE PERMIT. IT WOULD BE A SEPARATE PROCESS AND THAT WOULD ALLOW THE BED AND BREAKFAST, THE ASSISTED LIVING, GAS STATION, ART GALLERIES, MUSEUMS. THEN WE HAVE THE PROHIBITED USES. UM, THOSE ARE MOSTLY YOUR INDUSTRIAL USES. SO THE WAY OURS ARE SET UP IS THE RESIDENTIAL IS PERMITTED FIXING THE RESIDENTIAL TYPES BY RIGHT AT 25 ACRES YOU HIT 50 ACRES, THEN YOU CAN START INCORPORATING MORE OF THE COMMERCIAL USES. BUT OURS DOES NOT PERMIT THE INDUSTRIAL USES IN THIS. WE HAVE A SEPARATE DISTRICT THAT DOES. NONE OF THOSE WOULD BE ALLOWED. NONE OF THOSE WOULD BE ALLOWED. LAUREN, UM, WHEN WE SAY MANUFACTURE MM-HMM , OBVIOUSLY WE THINK ABOUT A MOBILE HOME. BUT WHAT ABOUT LIKE, UM, OUT ON 5 22 ALAN NICHOLS WHERE THEY BRING THE ? IS THAT CONSIDERED, I THINK THEY'RE MODULARS, RIGHT? ISN'T THAT WHAT IT'S CALLED? A MODULAR? I'M TRYING TO THINK. ISN'T THAT WHAT THEY CALL THEY WERE MODULAR. MY COUSIN HAD A MODULAR, THE PRETECH. YEAH, BUT YOU'RE RIGHT. IT'S LIKE THEY PUT IT TRAILER AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE'RE, WE'RE UPDATING IN THE CODE. OKAY. JUST AS A PART OF THE REWRITE BECAUSE THAT WE NEED TO CATCH UP WITH STATE CODE ON THAT ONE. WELL, AND AND MY MIND IS, IS THE HOUSE THAT'S MANUFACTURED OFF SITE, IS THAT MANUFACTURED OR WHAT'S THE TRUE DEFINITION? THERE'S SOME DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MANUFACTURED AND MODULAR AND UM, THE BUILDING PARTNER, WE MIGHT WANNA CLARIFY THAT. YEAH, THAT'S A GOOD POINT. UM, BUT WITH OUR PROCESS, AND THIS IS A BRIEF OVERVIEW 'CAUSE I WANTED YOU GUYS TO HAVE TIME TO [00:55:01] TALK. UM, THE PROCESS STARTS WITH A REZONING APPLICATION THAT GOES TO PLANNING COMMISSION AN TOWN COUNCIL FOR REVIEW. SO THAT'S A WORK SESSION AND A PUBLIC HEARING AT MINIMUM FOR EACH BODY. THEN YOU GET TO THE MASTER LAND USE PLAN SUBMISSION, WHICH IS REQUIRED WITHIN LIKE SIX MONTHS OF THAT INITIAL REZONING APPROVAL. THAT ALSO GOES TO PLANNING COMMISSION AND TOWN COUNCIL. THEN YOU GET TO CONVEYANCE OF OPEN SPACE. YOU HAVE ANOTHER DEVELOPMENT REVIEW, WHICH IS PLANNING COMMISSION TOWN COUNCIL AGAIN, AND THEN YOU HAVE AN APPEARANCE REVIEW WHICH PLANNING COMMISSION. UM, THEN YOU START GETTING INTO THE ISSUANCE OF ACTUAL PERMIT, BUT YOU HAVE A MINIMUM, I WOULD SAY ABOUT SEVEN WORK SESSIONS AND SEVEN PUBLIC HEARINGS WITH OUR CURRENT PROCESS. ALRIGHT, SEVEN WORK SESSIONS AND SEVEN PUBLIC MEETING. YES. WHEN YOU KIND OF START TO LOOK AT OUR LOCALITY VERSUS SOME OF THE OTHERS, I THINK THE BIG THING THAT, I GUESS SOME OF THE KEY POINTS THAT JUMP OUT IS THAT, UM, OURS SEEMS TO BE BASED ON FOUR ON ACREAGE. THE USE IS PERMITTED ON CERTAIN ACREAGE CRITERIA. THE OTHER JURISDICTIONS SEEM TO HAVE ADDITIONAL DISTRICTS WITHIN THEIR PND ORDINANCE. THEY HAVE ACREAGE REQUIREMENTS, THEY'RE LESS THAN OURS, BUT THEY HAVE STIPULA LIKE WORSE STIPULATIONS THAN OTHER AREAS. SO SOME OF THEM ONLY PERMIT THE P AND DS IN THE URBAN DEVELOPMENT AREAS LIKE WOODSTOCK FOR EXAMPLE. AND THEY HAVE FOUR DIFFERENT SUB-DISTRICTS. UM, LEESBURG HAS DISTRICTS WHERE YOU HAVE A LOWER DENSITY RESIDENTIAL, THEY HAVE MEDIUM AND MIXED, UH, DENSITY WHERE YOU HAVE MORE OF THE COMMERCIAL USES. THEN THEY HAVE COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL MIXES. SO YOU HAVE DIFFERENT TYPES OF DISTRICTS WITHIN THE P AND D. UM, AND THEN ONE OF THE OTHER BIG THINGS SEEMED TO BE THAT, UM, WE SEEM TO HAVE MORE, UH, THE REVIEWS BUILT INTO THE CODE. SO WE SEEM TO HAVE MORE MEETINGS, WOODSTOCKS THAT BASICALLY SET AT THE DISCRETION OF TOWN COUNCIL, SOLE DISCRETION OF TOWN COUNCIL FOR EACH OF THOSE CRITERIA. IT ALLOWED THEM TO WAIVE ACREAGE REQUIREMENTS THAT OUR CODE DOESN'T PERMIT US TO WEIGH OR WE DIDN'T HAVE SOME OF THOSE STIPULATIONS IN THERE. UM, BUT THROUGHOUT ALL OF THEM, THE INTENTIONS SEEM TO BE THE SAME, TO CREATE, YOU KNOW, WALKABLE MIXED USE COMMUNITIES WHERE YOU CAN BASICALLY LIVE, PLAY WORK, WHICH SEEMS TO BE THE, THE OVERARCHING GOAL ALLOWING THIS TYPE OF DEVELOPMENT AND THE NEGOTIATION ASPECT OF THAT AND THE NEGOTIATION ASPECT. AND THAT'S WHERE THE PROFFERS COME IN AND THINGS LIKE THAT. SO, UM, AT THIS POINT, STAFF AND PLANNING COMMISSION. I DIDN'T NEED TO JUST GET SOME GUIDANCE AND IDEAS ON WHAT COUNSEL WOULD LIKE TO SEE AS FAR AS, YOU KNOW, ORDINANCE CHANGES. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT YOU LIKE ABOUT THE CURRENT ORDINANCE, WHAT YOUR CONCERNS ARE, AND THAT WAY WE CAN KIND OF TAKE YOUR CONCERNS AND TRANSLATE THAT INTO CODE OR POLICY ALL DROP IN AT ONE. MAYBE, MAYBE THE SET FRAMEWORK. CAN YOU TELL US, LAUREN, HOW MANY UNDEVELOPED ACRES THERE ARE STILL IN TOWN? SO WE GET A SENSE OF HOW THAT WAS IN THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. AND I CANNOT THINK OF IT OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. UM, I KNOW IN THE IN THE, UM, MARSHALL AREA PLANNING DISTRICT, YOU HAVE WHAT, 604 ACRES THAT ARE UNDEVELOPED? THOSE ARE ALL ONE, YEAH. COUPLE. THEY GO EVERYTHING NORTH OF HAPPY CREEK. UH, I WANNA SAY THAT IS PERMITTED TO BE DEVELOPED AT LIKE ONE UNIT PER ACRE. SO I SAY YOU'VE GOT ABOUT 1300 ACRES THERE. 'CAUSE RIGHT NOW BY RIGHT DEVELOPMENT NORTH OF HAPPY CREEK CAN SHUT INTO A SHORES AND TOWN LIMITS IS ABOUT 1300 UNITS. SO 604 AND 1300 I THINK 1300 TOTAL. 1300. OKAY. AND WE HAVE OTHER PORTIONS OF UNDEVELOPED PROPERTY. WE TOWN, I THINK THERE ARE 72 LOTS. WE TOWN ARE UNDEVELOPED AND LARGER. BUT THOSE WOULD BE LIKE INFIELD LOT, SOME OF RIGHT. THEY'RE INFIELD. THERE'S SOME LOTS THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE IN THE, THEY'RE MOSTLY IN THE FLOODPLAIN. IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DEVELOP. RIGHT. SOME AREAS HAVE STEEP SLOPES, THEY WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO DEVELOP. SO OUT OF THAT 72, YOU KNOW, IT'S HARD TO SAY HOW MANY OF THOSE NOT UNTIL SOMEBODY GOES OUT THERE AND DOES THE ENGINEERING AND STUDIES. WHAT FEASIBLE? WELL, I, ALL THE SLOTS THAT WE HAVE POTENTIALLY AVAILABLE TO DEVELOP ON, IN REFERENCE TO THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE FOR US TO INCORPORATE ANY OF THIS PROPERTY AND DEVELOPED UPON IT, [01:00:01] WHAT WOULD WE BE LOOKING AT AS FAR AS BACK TO THE P AND D? GO AHEAD GLENN. I'M SORRY. WELL, AND I COULDN'T AGREE WITH YOU MORE, BUT WE'RE GETTING OFF TOPIC. YEAH. WHAT I THINK WOULD BE USEFUL IS THE, WHAT IS THE DESIRE OF THE COUNCIL FOR DEVELOPMENT? AND THEN WE LET THE BUILDERS KNOW AND THEN WE DON'T WRESTLE BACK AND FORTH AS AN APPOINTED BOARD RECOMMENDING SOMETHING THAT MATCHES CERTAIN THINGS THAT THE COUNCIL IS NOT IN FAVOR OF. AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND WHATEVER THAT MOVING TARGET IS, WE KNOW THAT WE HIRE PROFESSIONALS EACH YEAR WE'RE GONNA HIRE SIX NEW OFFICERS. I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY MORE DEPUTIES, EMT FIREFIGHTERS, THE COUNTY'S GONNA FUND MORE. WE HIRED 55 NEW TEACHERS LAST YEAR. UH, WE CAN TALK ABOUT EVERYTHING ALL NIGHT LONG. BUT UNTIL WE SOLVE THE PROBLEM OF OUR WORKING PROFESSIONALS WORKING AND LIVING HERE, WE'RE GONNA HAVE THE CONTINUOUS CHURN AND BURN. THE TEACHERS LIVE IN WINCHESTER. THEY GO HOME TO WINCHESTER. THEY HAVE RELATIONSHIPS IN WINCHESTER, THEY SHOP IN WINCHESTER. THEY GET A JOB IN FREDERICK COUNTY IN WINCHESTER. GUESS WHAT? THEY'RE GONE. SO WE CAN TALK ABOUT P AND DS, WE CAN TALK ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE, BUT IF WE CAN'T GUESS THE HOUSING FOR YOUR CHILDREN, MY CHILDREN, EVERYBODY'S CHILDREN, THE YOUNG PROFESSIONALS. THE REST OF US IS JUST TALK. CAN CAN I ADD ONE THING BEFORE WE MOVE ON WITH REGARD TO WHAT GLEN JUST SAID? I'VE BEEN DOING IT IN THE NORTHERN SHENANDOAH VALLEY AS WELL AS FIVE OTHER STATES FOR 12 YEARS. I HAVE TEACHERS SOME OF THOSE 55 THAT CAME HERE LAST YEAR THAT CAME HERE AND WILLINGLY CHOSE TO PAY AND LIVE IN SHORT TERM RENTALS THROUGHOUT OUR TOWN BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHERE THEY WANTED TO BUY OR BUILD A HOUSE UNTIL THEY HAD EXPERIENCED FRONT ROYAL. BECAUSE WE HAD A LOT FROM PENNSYLVANIA COME IN THAT LEFT THE TEACHER'S UNION IN PENNSYLVANIA. AND SO AT THAT SAME TIME, THIS COUNCIL WAS ARGUING TO SHUT DOWN SHORT-TERM RENTALS. AND I HAD TEACHERS FILLING OUT MORTGAGE APPLICATIONS, BUT THEY WERE ALSO LIVING IN SHORT-TERM RENTALS, MOVING AROUND WHILE THEY DECIDED WHAT PART OF FRONT, ROYAL AND WARREN COUNTY THEY WANTED TO BE IN. SO I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO THINK ABOUT THAT GOING INTO THE NEXT TOPIC. MOST TEACHERS APPRECIATE THOSE SHORT-TERM RENTALS WHEN THEY'RE NEW TO THE AREA. I HAVE A, I HAVE A QUESTION TOO. OKAY. UM, SOMETHING THAT I THINK I DON'T THINK WE HAD ADDRESSES. UM, I NEED TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THE WATER ISSUE IN TERMS OF HOW IT GOES WITH THE COUNTY. SO IF WE AS, AND IT GOES WITH, IF WE CAN BE, YOU KNOW, IN SYNC TOWN PLANNING COMMISSION AND TOWN COUNCIL, BUT DON'T WE ALSO HAVE TO BE IN SYNC WITH THE COUNTY SO THAT IF THE COUNTY IS DEVELOPING, LET'S SAY WILLY-NILLY, AND I'M, AND I'M NOT ACCUSING THE COUNTY OF DOING THAT, BUT LET'S SAY THEY, THEY'RE NOT ON A RESTRICTIVE SORT OF PATH, DOESN'T THAT IMPACT OUR WATER AS WELL? I I MEAN, DO, DO WE HAVE TO HAVE OUR STRUCTURALLY WE CAN SIT HERE AND SAY WE'VE GOT, YOU KNOW, A CERTAIN INFRASTRUCTURE FOR WATER, BUT THEN IF THE COUNTY GOES CRAZY WITH DEVELOPMENT, DOESN'T THAT IMPACT HOW WE WHAT OUR INFRASTRUCTURE AS WELL? WE DO, WE DO HAVE A COMMITMENT TO SERVE OUT IN THE CORRIDOR, AT LEAST THE COMMERCIAL ASPECT OF IT. AND WE DO SOME INDUSTRIAL OUT THERE. BUT THAT IS A BIG UNKNOWN FOR US. 'CAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S COMING DOWN THE PIPE. WE KNOW MORE DEVELOPMENTS IN HAVE SO MANY WELLS. INDUSTRIAL IS CASE BY CASE. OKAY. IS NOT, THERE'S, THERE'S NO AGREEMENT TO SERVE INDUSTRIAL AND NO RESIDENTIAL. NO, BUT I'M TALKING ABOUT SHADOWS IS AN EXCEPTION. DIGGING WELLS. I MEAN, IF THEY HAVE, YOU KNOW, HUNDREDS OF WELLS THAT THEY'RE DIGGING AROUND THE AREA, YOU KNOW, HOW DOES THAT IMPACT OUR WATER SUPPLY? THAT WATER WE GOOD AT? SO OUR WATER SUPPLY COMES FROM THE SOUTH PORK OF THE SHE. SO THAT'S SURFACE WATER. SO, UM, YOU KNOW, WE ARE EXPLORING OTHER ALTERNATIVE SOURCES SUCH AS GROUND WELLS LIKE YOU SEE TRADITIONALLY OUT IN THE COUNTY THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IN MCKAY SPRINGS. HONESTLY, I COULDN'T ANSWER THAT QUESTION. THE OVERALL IMPACT OF THE AREA AND WHAT THE OTHER WELLS ARE BEING. I I I JUST DON'T HAVE A, I JUST FEEL LIKE WE NEED TO, IT MAY BE ON OR WATER HAS COME UP EVERY, EVERY, ALMOST EVERY OTHER LIAISON MEETING. WELL, WE DON'T COORDINATE WHAT IS IS ALL, I'M JUST TRYING TO SAY. I MEAN THERE IS, WE CAN SAY WE COME FROM THE PIG SPRINGS IN THE SOUTH FOR OF THE SHAND RIVER, BUT I MEAN ULTIMATELY THEY DIGGING WELL IS BRINGING WATER FROM SOMEWHERE TOO. THAT'S PROBABLY ONE OF THEIR SOURCES OR CONTIGUOUS TO IT IN SOME WAY. YEAH. I I I DON'T KNOW. I'M NOT, I'M NOT NODDING MY HEAD. I'M LISTENING TO YOU. YEAH, I THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING IS, IS IT'S NOT JUST [01:05:01] OUR DEVELOPMENT, IT'S ALSO COUNTY'S DEVELOPMENT AS WELL. HOW ABOUT IN SYNC WITH US? SO HERE'S, HERE'S MY ASSESSMENT THAT AFTER AN HOUR AND 30 MINUTES, IT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE THAT, THAT, UM, IT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE THAT PEOPLE ARE READY TO SAY ABOUT A CHANGE OR NOT CHANGE. I'M NOT SAYING WE CAN'T ENTERTAIN IT IN THE FUTURE, BUT I MEAN, I THINK WE COULD TALK ABOUT THIS ANOTHER HOUR OR LONGER. AND I DON'T, FIVE COUNCIL MEMBERS HERE SAID THEY WEREN'T READY TO CHANGE ONE. RIGHT? NO, I GOTCHA. I GOT I'M NOT, I'M, I I'M NOT SAYING THAT THAT IS THE CASE, BUT THE OTHER THREE MIGHT AND WE'RE MISSING ONE. UM, SO IS I REPRESENTING COUNCIL? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5? THAT'S FIVE. WE'RE ONLY MISSING ONE. HE'S ON PLANNING. HE'S ON PLANNING SOMEBODY. UM, WE'RE NOT VOTING, SO NO, I KNOW WE'RE NOT, I KNOW WE WEREN'T VOTING. THAT WAS WHY MY ASSESSMENT WAS THAT. MY ASSESSMENT IS THAT IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE PEOPLE ARE READY TO MAKE, WE'RE NEVER GONNA VOTE ON THOUGH. IT DOESN'T GO TO A VOTE THAT DOESN'T VOTE. WELL ACTUALLY IT WOULD WOULD BE IF YOU CHANGE YOUR, IF WE CHANGED, BUT WE DON'T HAVE CONSENSUS TO TAKE IT TO A VOTE TO CHANGE. IT IS WHAT MY WHOLE POINT THAT ONE, MY ANALYSIS WAS TIE, WHICH IS WHAT I SAID. MY ANALYSIS IS THAT THOUGHTS ON CURRENT P AND D ZONING ORDINANCE, WHICH IS WHAT LAUREN WAS ASKING INFORMATION ON. THE ONLY THING THAT I'VE HEARD COME OUT OF THIS CONVERSATION THAT LAUREN COULD ACT ON WOULD BE TO LOOK INTO PERFORMANCE. NO. CORRECT. AND, AND THAT, AND THAT WILL TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THE THINGS THAT, UH, COUNCILMAN, UH, WHAT'S YOUR NAME? WHAT WOOD COUNCILMAN WOOD SAID COUNCILMAN WOOD AND, UH, AND, UH, PLANNING COMM MICHAEL WILLIAMS. WILLIAMS HAS BROUGHT UP, OKAY, AS FAR AS HOUSING THAT MIGHT BE MORE AFFORDABLE OR IT COULD BE TOWN HOMES COULD BE A LOT OF THINGS THAT COULD FIT INTO THIS PERFORMANCE ZONING OR FORM ZONING. NOW, ONE THING I WILL SAY THAT IT SOUNDED LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE SAID TONIGHT, AND I COULD BE WRONG, I'M NOT WRONG, I'M NOT ON THIS ONE. IT SOUNDED LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE DID EXPRESS THAT PEOPLE DON'T WANT, OR, OR THIS PIECE, YOU ROOTS HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT SIX AND SEVEN AND $800,000 HOMES. IT DID SOUND LIKE PEOPLE, UH, COUNCIL WOOD WAS TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT'S AFFORDABLE FOR OUR YOUNG PROFESSIONALS AND JUST ALL THOSE TYPES OF THINGS. SO LAUREN, THAT'S, THAT'S PRETTY MUCH ALL WE GOT RIGHT NOW FOR YOU. AND, UH, MOVING ON. SHORT TERM RENTALS. AND I WILL SAY THIS ONE AT THE END OF 30 MINUTES, WE WILL END NO MATTER WHAT. IT'LL BE A SHORT TERM CONVERSATION. IT'LL BE A SHORT TERM NOT, AND NOT THAT WE CAN'T BRING IT UP AGAIN. I'M JUST SAYING I FEEL LIKE WE, WE WILL, WE ZERO IT IN. 'CAUSE WE DEFINITELY DON'T WANT THIS TO BE A FIVE HOUR MEETING. OKAY. SO FOR SHORT TERM RENTALS, WE HAVE A CURRENT SHORT TERM RENTAL ORDINANCE. UM, AND SHORT TERM RENTALS BY THEIR NATURE CONSTITUTE THEY'RE AN EXPANSION OF THE CURRENT USE. SO EVEN IF IT'S A RESIDENTIAL HOME THAT'S GETTING TURNED INTO A SHORT TERM RENTAL, YOU'RE STILL EXPANDING THAT USE. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE ADDITIONAL REGULATION ON TOP OF IT. WHAT STAFF WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IS HOW MUCH ADDITIONAL REGULATION, IF ANY, IS DESIRED BEYOND WHAT WE HAVE NOW. I AWARE THAT THERE HAVE BEEN SOME PARKING SPACE ISSUES RIGHT NOW. I, OUR STAFF BASICALLY CALCULATES PARKING AT ONE SPACE PER ROOM TO MATCH THE LODGING, UH, REQUIREMENT THAT'S IN OUR, UM, SUBDIVISION ORDINANCE BECAUSE THAT'S THE CLOSEST METRIC WE HAVE TO MEASURE IT AND DIDN'T WANT IT TO BE ARBITRARY. UM, RIGHT NOW WE REQUIRE STAFF INSPECTIONS AND WE HAVE THEM PERMITTED IN ALL ZONING DISTRICTS WITH A SPECIAL USE PERMIT. IT'S PRETTY SAD. WE THOUGHT THIS WAS A HUGE ISSUE. AND THERE'S, UH, JUST ABOUT AS MANY VAPE SHOPS AS THERE ARE SHORT TERM RENTALS. SO PEOPLE AREN'T BUYING UP ALL THE HOUSE THAT'S MAKING SHORT TERM RENTALS AFTER ALL. ALTHOUGH YOU DID SAY THERE'S BEEN MORE. RIGHT? THERE'S MORE. I THINK WE GOT A PUBLIC HEARING COMING UP NEXT WEEK THAT, OR NO, WE WE'RE GONNA TALK TO THE WORK SESSION. THERE'S LIKE 6, 7, 8 WEEKS. WE GOT ONE OR TWO IN THE WORKS. NOW. THERE'S ALSO PEOPLE IN THOSE 20 THAT APPLIED FOR THE PERMIT, BUT THEY DO LONG TERM RENTALS AND JUST WANTED TO HAVE IT IN CASE THEY'RE IN THE OFF SEASON. THEIR TENANT WASN'T THERE. SO THE QUESTION IS, DOES COUNCIL, DOES PLANNING COMMISSION HAVE THE DESIRE TO TO REGULATE MORE LIFT? I, YEAH, I'M GONNA SAY, UH, WE NEED TO DO AWAY WITH THE PARKING BECAUSE COUNCIL IS GOING TO GET A RECOMMENDATION FROM PLANNING COMMISSION WITH A, UH, A CONDITION TO IT BECAUSE THERE'S NOT ENOUGH ON ONSITE PARKING. MM-HMM. [01:10:01] ONE SPOT PER BEDROOM. AND, AND WE TALK ABOUT THE FRUSTRATION. IF COUNT, IF THE PLANNING COMMISSION READS THE ZONING ORDINANCE AND SAYS IT MUST BE THIS, THEN THEY'RE GONNA RECOMMEND A DENIAL. COUNCIL'S PROBABLY GONNA TURN AROUND AND SAY, WELL, PARKING'S NOT ISSUING ANY PARKING ON STREET. GET RID OF IT AND THEN THERE WON'T BE THE, UM, CONFLICT. SECOND. AND I DO, I DO BELIEVE THAT THAT THAT HAS COME UP BEFORE THE LAST TIME WE, THE LAST TIME THESE TWO GROUPS, WE TALKED ABOUT IT, WE TALKED ABOUT MULTIPLE TIMES. AND I WILL SAY AGAIN, WHEN THE SHORT TERM RENTAL CAME UP, I WAS ON COUNCIL AT THE TIME. AT THE TIME IT WAS NEW PEOPLE SAID, THIS IS WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT. PEOPLE WERE CONCERNED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, OTHER RESIDENTIAL AREAS WORRYING THAT ALL OF A SUDDEN THERE WAS GONNA BE A BUNCH, BUNCH OF PARKING CRYING. SO THAT WAS THAT BE, THAT WAS AN ISSUE. I WILL SAY FROM LITERALLY PROBABLY THE SECOND OR THIRD APPLICATION WE STARTED TO SEE THAT PARKING WAS, YOU KNOW, AND WE SAID THEN THAT THIS COULD BE SOMETHING WE COULD GO BACK AND LOOK AT AGAIN. AND SO, YOU KNOW, UM, PARKING HAS COME UP MULTIPLE TIMES FOR PLANNING COMMISSION AND FOR COUNSEL. THOUGHTS ABOUT GETTING RID OF THE PARKING REQUIREMENT. YES. I'VE ACKNOWLEDGED EVERY TIME MY SYMPATHY TO THE PC, IT'S NOT DISRESPECTFUL TO THEM THAT THEY HAVE TO DO WHAT'S IN THE CODE WHEN THEY MAKE A RECOMMENDATION. MELISSA, I MEAN, BRUCE, AND THERE'S A D DIFFERENT TWIST ON IT COMING ON THIS OTHER. RIGHT, RIGHT. AND BRUCE, I KNOW, I KNOW HOW YOU FEEL, BUT I WANT YOU TO SPEAK FOR YOURSELF. WHAT ARE YOU GOOD WITH THAT? I, I I DISAGREE. I THINK I KNOW. I THINK WE, WE NEED TO HAVE, REQUIRE SOME PARKING. OTHERWISE SOME THERE, THERE'S GOING TO BE PARKING ON, ON, I MEAN LOOK, LOOK AT BLUE, BLUE RIDGE, UH, IN THOSE HISTORIC DISTRICTS. I MEAN, YOU GOTTA REQUIRE THEM TO HAVE SOME PARKING. SO, AND I DON'T KNOW THAT ONE SPACE IS ADEQUATE. SO WE SAID WHAT IT WAS WAS ONE PARKING SPACE PER BEDROOM, RIGHT? YEAH, YEAH. I'M, I'M IT WAS ONE PER BED BEDROOM. RIGHT. SO IF YOU, YOU HAVE THREE BEDROOMS, YOU IT'D BE THREE. YOU HAVE TO HAVE THREE PARKING SPOTS. I'M STAYING IN AN AIRBNB NEXT WEEKEND. MY KIDS DON'T HAVE DRIVER'S LICENSE. MY SIGNIFICANT ANOTHER AND I WILL ONLY TAKE ONE CAR ON VACATION. SO WHETHER IT'S A FIVE BEDROOM HOUSE, THERE'S ONLY ONE OF US THAT ARE DRIVING A VEHICLE THERE. THAT'S THE COMMON THING. WHEN YOU GO STAY IN AN AIRBNB, YOU'RE NOT ALL DRIVING INDIVIDUALLY OR RENTING THE PARKING REQUIREMENT FOR THE REHAB HOUSE. 10 BEDROOMS. THEY WENT BULLDOZED THE LAND, PUT GRAVEL OUT THERE. NOT A MOUNTAIN CART ONE. YEAH. YEAH. IF YOU STAY IN A SHORT TERM RENTAL, YOU'RE NOT ALL, YOU'RE NOT, WHAT'S IT CALLED? CONVOYING TO IT. . WELL, COULD, I'M JUST ASKING DON'T YOU MESSENGER, DO PEOPLE WANNA AT LEAST REQUIRE ONE PARKING? NOPE. I OWNED A HOUSE IN DOWNTOWN WHERE YOU DIDN'T HAVE A DRIVEWAY. ONE PARKING? NO, NOT PER ROOM. JUST LITERALLY ONE PARKING FOR THE . YOU WANNA REMOVE OFF STREET PARKING REQUIREMENT? WELL, I, WE'RE STILL TALKING WHERE I LIVE, I DON'T HAVE A DRIVEWAY. RIGHT. I DON'T HAVE A GARAGE. AND IF I ENDED UP DOING THIS SHORT TERM RENTAL, WHERE AM I GONNA PUT PARKING? AM I GONNA PAVE MY BACKYARD? THAT'S WHAT THEY WOULD REQUIRE. THAT'S WHAT THEY WOULD CONDITION FOR. I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT I'M THE PUBLIC HEARING THIS. I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS AND I GET IT, BUT WHEN YOU HAVE A HOUSE THAT DOES NOT HAVE PARKING, SNOW DRIVEWAY, NOTHING RENTAL, LONG TERM RENTAL. EXACTLY. IF IT'S A LONG TERM RENTAL LIVE THERE, WE DON'T REGULATE IT. IF YOU WERE TO RENT YOUR HOUSE OUT LONG TERM, BRIAN, YOU WOULD BE, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE HAVE ANY REQUIREMENT. BUT IF YOU WERE RENTED OUT FOR 30 DAYS OR LESS, YOU'D HAVE TO HAVE, YOU'D HAVE TO HAVE PART, WHICH IS, THAT'S WELL, TO ME EXACTLY. YEAH. THAT, THAT'S WHY WE AS A COUNCIL ARE TALKING ABOUT WE ALL SOUNDS LIKE, I'M NOT SAYING IT'S A TOTAL CONSENSUS 'CAUSE I, I RESPECT EVERYBODY'S OPINION, BUT IT DOES SOUND LIKE MOST PEOPLE WERE, THE MAJORITY ARE SAYING TO GET RID OF THE PARKING REQUIREMENT. ALL RIGHT, MIKE, WHAT'S YOUR ARGUMENT? ALL RIGHT. I WANT TO GET ON AND WHAT CUSTOMER? THE LAST ONE REQUIRES STAFF INSPECTIONS. UM, WE DO THAT NOW. WE INSPECT NOW TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE ALARM. THAT APPLICATION PER APPLICATION. AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO IT AGAIN. NO, WE DON'T GO BACK UNLESS WE GET A COMPLAINT. WE HAVEN'T RECEIVED ANY COMPLAINTS, BUT WE'RE CHECKING FOR AN EVACUATION PLAN AND MAKING SURE THAT THEY HAVE THE TOWN'S, UH, NOISE ORDINANCES, A COPY OF IT IN A BINDER AND THAT THEY'VE GOT SMOKE DETECTORS IN THE APPROPRIATE ROOMS. I THINK THAT'S REASONABLE. I THINK THAT'S REASONABLE [01:15:01] TOO. 'CAUSE I DID STAY IN AN AIRBNB MY FIRST TIME AND COLORADO AND AS I'M SITTING ON THE COUCH, I LOOK UP AND THE SMOKE DETECTOR IS GONE. IT'S ALL THE WIRES RAN UP, WAS NOTHING WAS THERE. AND I WENT, OF COURSE I TOLD MY COUSIN, I'M LIKE, ALRIGHT, WE, YOU KNOW, WE GOTTA BE ON IT. WE GOTTA BE THE NOTICE IF WE SMELL ANYTHING. AND I SAID, YOU NEED TO TEXT THE OWNER AND LET THEM KNOW. BUT OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, WE DIDN'T COMPLAIN, BUT WE SHOULD HAVE. I THINK THAT'S MORE THAN CLEAR. AND IT GIVES US A CALL BACK BECAUSE IT'S ONLY A ONE TIME INSPECTION AND IF THERE'S A COMPLAINT, YOU HAVE TO GO BACK. RIGHT. IS EVERYBODY OKAY WITH KEEPING THAT? YES. ALL RIGHT. PERMITTED IN ALL ZONING DISTRICTS WITH AN SUP. SO THAT MEANS ANY DISTRICTS WHERE YOU WANT IT TO BE BY RIGHT. AND IT'S ADMINISTRATIVE, IT DOESN'T COME TO THIS BODY. OH YEAH. AND RESIDENTIAL. AND I KNOW RESIDENTIAL IS THAT WHEN WE HAD PUBLIC, WHEN WE HAD THE PUBLIC HEARING, THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE WERE CONCERNED ABOUT. AND I'M NOT RESIDENTIAL, BUT I'M NOT GONNA BE IN FAVOR OF BANNING IT IN ANY DISTRICTS BECAUSE LITERALLY WHEN I GO SOMEWHERE AND STAYING AN AIRBNB, I SEARCH FOR DOWNTOWN, OUR HISTORIC DISTRICT. I JUST WENT TO AUSTIN, TEXAS AND I LITERALLY TYPED IN AN AIRBNB DOWNTOWN HISTORIC. I WANTED TO BE IN THE HEART OF IT. WELL, FOR ONE THING, YOU CAN WALK AND NOT RAN OUTTA THE CAR. THAT'S A COMMERCIAL. I, IF I CAN DOWNTOWN AMBER, APROPOS WHAT YOU JUST SAID, I'VE HAD BUSINESS, BUT ON MAIN STREET SAY ME THAT THEY WISH THERE WAS SOME WAY THAT WE COULD ENCOURAGE ST. CLOSE TO DOWNTOWN. THERE'S A BEAUTIFUL WHATEVER THE CANDY STORE. SO WHAT ABOUT ENCOURAGE? IS THERE ANYTHING WE CAN DO TO ENCOURAGE THEM IN CERTAIN, LIKE IN THE HISTORIC WOULD MY RIGHT, IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, WE COULD TALK ABOUT THAT. WE COULD LOOK AT TOUGHER. THAT'S PARKING WE'RE MAKING. WHEN I WENT TO AUSTIN, I DIDN'T STAND IN THE COMMERCIAL DISTRICT, BRUCE. I STAYED IN THE DOWNTOWN HISTORIC ARCHITECTURAL DISTRICT. AND GUESS WHAT, IF I DIDN'T FIND PARKING, I HAD TO WALK MY BUTT UP AND DOWN THE HILLS. IT WAS ON ME. . OKAY. WELL IT WAS MY PROBLEM. I BELIEVE IN HOME SHARE. OKAY. I, I LIKE HOME SHARE. IN, IN THE, IN THE RESIDENTIAL DISTANCE. WHAT'S THE, WHAT'S THE WHOLE, YOU HAVE THE OWNER HAS TO UNDER I DON'T THINK, AND, AND, UH, I THINK YOU, I THINK YOU CAN PUT THAT IN ALL THE UH, UH, MOST OF THE DISTRICTS AND, UH, YOUR DOWNTOWN IS MAINLY A COMMERCIAL COMMERCIAL ANYWAY, SO IT'S STRAIGHT SHORT TERM RENTAL. AND, AND YOU CAN HAVE HOMES SHARE AS WELL. I MEAN, I THINK THE WINCHESTER MODEL IS QUITE, IT'S QUITE TO THE POINT. AND, UH, I DON'T, I DON'T SEE WHY WE WOULDN'T, WOULDN'T WANT THAT. I MEAN, THERE'S ADVANTAGES TO THAT BECAUSE THERE'S SOMEONE THERE THAT, THAT IS IN A HOME SHARE SITUATION WHO'S, WHO'S THERE AT LEAST 180 DAYS A YEAR. AND THEY'RE GONNA MAKE SURE THAT, THAT THEY'RE VETTING THE VETTING THE PEOPLE THAT ARE, THEY'RE RENTING TO. UM, THEY CAN OBSERVE WHAT'S GOING ON. UH, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE NOT GONNA WANT JUST ANYBODY IN THERE. IT'S NOT JUST A FINANCIAL INVESTMENT FOR THEM. UH, IT, UH, BECAUSE IT'S THEIR, IT'S THEIR HOME. YOU LOSE A LOT OF MONEY. SHORT TERM RENTAL, A HOME SHARE IN THE ORDINANCE NOW. NO, NO. THIS COUNCIL DIDN'T APPROVE OF THAT. WELL, I DON'T WANNA LIVE IN THE HOUSE WITH THE PERSON RUNNING IN AS A LANDLORD. COULD, COULD BOTH BE, UH, APPROVED. COULD BOTH BE NO, I'M NOT IN FAVOR OF THAT. YOU CAN ALWAYS MAKE . WELL, I MEAN EVERYBODY, I MEAN, WE WE'RE STILL TALKING. SO EVERYBODY, I WILL SAY THE ONE BENEFIT THAT I SEE TO WHAT BRUCE IS TALKING ABOUT IS MY FEAR AND OTHER PEOPLE'S FEAR THE LEAST. SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT TALKED TO ME IS THAT PEOPLE FROM OTHER PLACES, OTHER CITY INVESTMENT PEOPLE COME IN, BUY AN OLD HOME AND SHORT TERM RENTAL IT. NOW I KNOW WE'RE ALL GONNA SAY, WELL, THAT'S OKAY. THAT'S THEIR RIGHT. DIDN'T THEY REVITALIZE OR DIE? YEAH, THEY REVITALIZING PROPERTIES. RIGHT. AND THEY ARE, ALL I'M SAYING THOUGH IS THAT ALSO THEN CUTS DOWN OUR MARKET OF POSSIBLY AFFORDABLE HOUSING. BUT HAS IT DONE THAT? WELL, WE'VE ONLY HAD 20 AND HOW MANY YEARS HAS IT BEEN? THREE? TWO. TWO. I WAS ON IT WHEN WE HAD 20 LEGAL, THEY WERE HAPPENING BEFORE WE IMPLEMENTED THAT. IN THE CURRENT SITUATION, WHO REGULATES THE NUMBER OF GUESTS THAT ARE IN THERE? TWO PER BEDROOM IS WELL, WELL NO, THEY INSPECT IT. I, I I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE REALLY . BUT HAVE WE HAD ANY COMPLAINTS? BUT IF IT'S HOME SHARE, THAT PERSON KNOWS HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE IN THERE. WE HAVEN'T HAD ANY COMPLAINTS FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT OR TO PLANNING AND ZONING THAT HAS BEEN OVERCROWDED HOME. SO [01:20:01] THE ADVANTAGE OF HOMES SHARE IS THAT THE PUBLIC WOULD FEEL LIKE THEY WERE NOT QUITE SO VULNERABLE TO TOTAL STRANGERS. UH, AND A CHANGING CAST OF CHARACTERS. AND THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE DO WORRY. I THINK YOU WERE ONE. WE INITIALLY IMPLEMENTED IT AND WE PULLED UP THE SEX OFFENDER AND CRIME RATE AND WE HAD THE CHIEF OF POLICE CHIME IN ALL THE LONG TERM RUNNERS LIVING AROUND YOU GUYS IN TOWN LIMITS, YOU HAVE NO IDEA THAT THEY'RE VIOLENT CRIMINALS AND DRUG ADDICTS. ADDICTS AND SEX OFFENDERS. SO THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE IN A HOME SHARE. OKAY. THEN YOU KNOW 'EM, YOU'RE LESS VULNERABLE. BUT IF IT'S A LONG-TERM RENTER, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY RIGHT TO KNOW THEM. THERE'S NOBODY TO VET THEM FOR THAT OR THEY BUY THE HOUSE. IT DOESN'T CUT DOWN ON YOUR VULNERABILITY. ARE PEOPLE ACTUALLY RENTING THEM THOUGH? I MEAN, I'VE NEVER HEARD OF, I'M JUST HONESTLY SAYING, I'VE NEVER HEARD OF ANYBODY EVER IN THE HISTORY OF AIRBNB THAT I'VE EVER HEARD OF DOING A HOME SHARE LIKE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. I'M JUST, I'M JUST, I'M JUST SAYING THAT I JUST, THE ONE I COLORADO, THE ONE I JUST STAYED IN COLORADO, THAT THEY, THEY WERE HERE AND THIS WAS OVER HERE. THERE WAS A DOOR, BUT WE DIDN'T WELL, I'M JUST SAYING, I'M JUST ASKING. I JUST NEVER HEARD OF IT. WE HAVE ONE ON PERFECT AVENUE. OKAY. I JUST DIDN'T REMEMBER THE NICE YOUNG COUPLE. YEAH. YEAH. I'VE STAYED IN B I'M JUST SAYING I TWO BEDROOM, WE ORDER LIVED IN ONE WING AND ME IT'S NOT SO IT'S LIKE A BED AND BREAKFAST WITHOUT THE BREAKFAST PART. YES. LITERALLY WHAT BREAKFAST? YEAH. THAT'S WHY. YEAH. SO WHY ISN'T THAT, LET ME ASK YOU THIS THEN. SO WHY ISN'T THAT IF IT'S CLOSER TO BEING BED AND BREAKFAST, THEN WHY ISN'T IT LOOKED AT THAT WAY THEN? YOU'RE JUST NOT GETTING BREAKFAST. YOU'RE GETTING THE BED BUT NOT GETTING THE BREAKFAST , I'M SAYING RIGHT HOME SHARE. RIGHT. IT IS BED AND BREAKFAST, HOME SHARING. IT'S A PERSON THAT WANTS TO RENT OUT. I HAVE BEEN IN BED RECORDS BEFORE WHERE PEOPLE HAVE STAYED THERE. I DON'T, I THINK THEY'RE KIND OF CREEPY, YOU KNOW, DAYS OR LESS. THAT'S THAT'S WHAT I'M JUST SAYING. I DON'T KNOW. I'M JUST, I'VE NEVER, WE HAVE SEPARATE PROVISIONS FOR BED BURN. RIGHT. WE DO LODGING HOUSE AND LODGING HOUSE. THERE ARE DIFFERENT CODES FOR IT. SO. SO IT SOUNDS LIKE SO FAR THAT EVERYBODY AGREES TO GET RID OF THE PARKING REQUIREMENT. IT SOUNDS LIKE EVERYBODY STILL WANTS THE STAFF INSPECTIONS. IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE EVERYBODY WANTS TO PERMIT IT IN ALL ZONING DISTRICTS WITH AN SUP, BUT IT DOES SOUND LIKE I, I, I DON'T FEEL LIKE I HEARD EVERYBODY'S VOICE, BUT HERE'S YOUR CHANCE. ANYBODY ELSE WANNA WANNA SPEAK UP AND GIVE THEIR THOUGHTS ON UM, ON THAT? I CHANGED MY MIND. I WOULD LIKE TO KEEP THEM ALL SUP THAT WAY WE HAVE A WAY TO REVOKE IT. UM, AND WE HAVE SOME SAY IN WHO DOES IT. SO, YOU KNOW, THE CHINESE CAN'T COME IN AND BUY UP ALL THE REAL ESTATE FROM THESE YOUNG PROFESSIONALS LIKE MYSELF. AND UM, WE GET TO SEE EVERY SINGLE APPLICATION. SO THAT MEANS THAT IT WOULD BE TO KEEP PERMITTED IN ALL ZONING DISTRICTS WITH AN SUP, WHICH MEANS YOU ALL WOULD STILL SEE IT. WE WOULD STILL SEE IT. UM, YEAH. YEAH. I THINK THAT'S OKAY. AND CAN FAVOR AND NO FAVOR, I'M SORRY. AND NO FAVORING OF MAIN STREET OR HISTORIC DISTRICT? YOU MEAN FAVORING, I THINK IF IT IS AN ALL, ALL FIRE RANGE, IT'LL BE SHOWCASE BY CASE. YEAH. ONE AHEAD. ONE THING I JUST WANT MENTION, UH, THE COUNTY CHARGES, I THINK $1,050 FOR THEIR CUBS AND WE'RE AT 4 404 4 50. JUST PUTTING THAT THOUGHT OUT THERE TOO. AND I KNOW WHEN THAT WAS BEING DECIDED, , I KNOW WHEN THAT WAS BEING DECIDED. UM, AND IT HADN'T SLOWED 'EM UP. I MEAN THE COUNTY'S DOING 5, 6, 7 OR EIGHT OF 'EM A MONTH. NO, I KNOW THAT WHEN THAT WAS BEING DECIDED, THERE WERE PEOPLE ON COUNCIL AT THE TIME. NOBODY THAT'S HERE RIGHT NOW THAT WAS SAYING THAT THEY FELT LIKE THAT WAS ALMOST TOO MUCH MONEY THAT THAT WAS FOR THE PEOPLE I WAS ON COUNCIL. I KNOW, BUT YOU DIDN'T SAY YOU DIDN'T. I DIDN'T. I'M JUST PEOPLE THAT THOUGHT THAT 400 OR FOUR 50 WAS TOO MUCH MONEY. I WILL SAY THIS, THAT THAT THERE IS AN AMOUNT OF STAFF TIME FOR THAT INITIAL APPLICATION, ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE'S A STAFF INSPECTION AND CHECKING ALL THE OTHER THINGS. I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW. HERE'S THE THING IS I THINK PEOPLE THAT ARE DOING SHORT TERM RENTAL, THEY WERE BEFORE WE AREN'T, BUT, BUT, UM, WHICH IS A WHOLE NOTHER ISSUE IN ITSELF OF US TRYING TO GET THE MONEY FOR THE, FOR THE LODGING PART. BJ WOULD AGREE WITH THAT I'M SURE. BUT ANYWAY, SO I THINK WHAT COUNCILMAN WOOD IS TALKING ABOUT IS, WOULD ANYBODY LIKE TO ENTERTAIN A ARISE IN THE APPLICATION FEE? AND I'M NOT ADVOCATING A THOUSAND DOLLARS NO, BUT IT'S NOT SLOWING UP. I KNOW, I KNOW. CANCELING FROM THE PEANUT . NO, I KNOW. SO DO PEOPLE, I WANNA KNOW, SAY FOR TWO REASONS. IN TWO YEARS WE'VE HAD 20, NOBODY'S TEARING DOWN THE DOOR TO DO IT. AND SECONDLY, I [01:25:01] KNOW TWO FOR A FACT IN THE TOWN OF FRONT ROYAL APPLIED FOR THAT BECAUSE TEACHERS RENT THEIR HOUSE YEAR TO YEAR ON THEIR CONTRACT AND THEIR CONTRACTS RENEW IN FEBRUARY. NO, ACTUALLY, WELL, I MEAN, WE'RE STILL WAITING ANYWAY, BUT WE DON'T EVEN HAVE OUR CONTRACTS WHEN THE CONTRACTS RENEW IS THE TIME THAT MOST LONG-TERM RENTERS CAN GET A LEASE. PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO MOVE IN DECEMBER OR NOVEMBER, WHATEVER THE HOLIDAYS. SO THEY APPLIED JUST TO HAVE IT IN CASE THERE WAS NO, ACTUALLY A FORMER PC MEMBER MADE THEIR HOUSE A SHORT-TERM RENTAL FOR WHEN THEY WANTED TO USE IT IN THE OFF SEASON. MY FAMILY LOOKED INTO IT 'CAUSE IT WAS THE ONLY ONE IN TOWN THAT WAS LARGE ENOUGH TO ACCOMMODATE US HAVE CHRISTMAS THERE. UM, SO THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE APPLYING FOR IT JUST TO HAVE IT AND NOT ACTUALLY UTILIZING IT. SO I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD MAKE IT ANY MORE FINANCIAL BURDEN FOR THOSE TYPE OF PEOPLE. I MEAN, YOU'RE NOT GONNA, I MEAN WE'RE NOT RE WE'RE NOT REGULATING, WE'RE DEREGULATING . SO THAT'S WHAT I'M, THERE'S NO POINT THAT YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I'M HEARING IS, UH, YOU'RE DEREGULATING. ALTHOUGH I WANNA REGULATE 'EM, UH, THERE'S NO POINT IN RAISING THEIR FEE. WHY, WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT? I ALWAYS LIKE FOR US TO HAVE LOWER FEES, ACCESS INCOME. I'M NOT ARGUING YOU. I JUST WANTED, I WANTED REGULATE 'EM. I GOT IT. I WROTE IT DOWN ON MY PAPER. . I MEAN, I, I'M MORE WORRIED ABOUT US GETTING THE INCOME RIGHT FROM THAT. HOW, THAT'S THE ONLY THING I WILL SAY. AND IF I COULD, MAYBE I'M WRONG, BUT IF WE MAKE IT HIGHER FOR THEM TO APPLY, THERE MIGHT BE MORE PEOPLE ON THE BLACK MARKET THAT ARE DOING IT WITHOUT LETTING US KNOW BECAUSE, AND WHEN WE GET TO THE POINT WHERE WE CAN ACTUALLY FIGURE OUT WHO'S DOING IT AND COLLECT THOSE LODGING FEES, YOU KNOW, THE MORE PEOPLE WE HAVE DOING IT LEGALLY WOULD BE BETTER. AND, AND I GUESS THAT'S ON A COMPLAINT BASE, RIGHT? SO IF PEOPLE, IF NEIGHBORS KNOW THAT SOMEBODY'S DOING SHORT TERM RENTALS MM-HMM. IT'S A COMPLAINT BASE, THEY CAN LET THE TOWN KNOW. RIGHT. THAT WAS ANOTHER REASON I WASN'T IN FAVOR OF INCREASING THE FEE BECAUSE IT DISCOURAGES PEOPLE FROM DOING IT LEGALLY IF THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT. ANYTHING ELSE THAT, ANY ANYTHING ELSE THAT SOMEBODY WOULD LIKE TO ENTERTAIN FOR THE SHORT TERM RENTAL? IT'S NOT THAT, BUT I, I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT WE'RE HAVING THESE KIND OF TYPES OF GET TOGETHERS. YEAH. I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY DIDN'T HAPPEN BEFORE. I WILL SAY I WAS NOT LIKE WEEKLY OR ANYTHING. YEAH. , I DON'T THINK ANY TUESDAY, I DON'T THINK ANY OF US WANT MORE MEETINGS. RIGHT. I WILL SAY MIKE NO MORE THAN NATIONAL. I VOTE FOR AN ANNUALLY. SO MIKE, YOU STOLE MY THUNDER. BUT I WAS GONNA SAY THAT I KNOW THAT THIS WAS LONG AND, YOU KNOW, TWO AND A HALF HOURS. BUT I WILL SAY REALLY GOOD DISCUSSIONS WERE HELD HERE AND HOPEFULLY, YOU KNOW, IT MAKES THE, THE, THE, UH, COLLABORATION AMONGST US TO CONTINUE. WE ACTUALLY HAD OTHER THINGS THAT CONNIE AND I WERE GONNA PUT ON THE AGENDA. WE STUCK TO THESE THREE. I'M SO GLAD WE DIDN'T ADD ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE WE WOULD'VE SAID NO, WOULD'VE BEEN A NORMAL MEETING. YEAH, IT WOULD'VE BEEN A LITTLE, THE THANKS TO EVERYBODY FOR MEETING AND YOU'RE GOOD. AND I'M GONNA SAY MEETING JOURNEY. BRIAN AND MICHAEL AND CONNIE. CAN I ASK YOU GUYS A QUESTION. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.