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THANK YOU.[Town Council Work Session on December 4, 2023.]
THE TOWN COUNCIL WORK SESSION FOR MONDAY, DECEMBER 4TH.MR. PRESLEY, CAN WE DO A ROLL CALL? MAYOR COCKRELL HERE.
UM, JUST TO LET YOU GUYS KNOW FOR THE WORK SESSION, OUR GOAL NOW IS TO HAVE THE CONSENT AGENDA ITEMS EARLY ON SO STAFF DOESN'T HAVE TO NECESS, ALWAYS HAVE TO NECESSARILY STAY THROUGH US TALKING FOR AN HOUR AND A HALF BEFORE THEY, THEY GET TO GO.
SO OUR, UM, FIRST ITEM UP IS, UM, IS A CONSENT AGENDA ITEM.
SO, UM, MICHELLE OR VJ? I'M TAKING NO REPORT'S.
SO'S THE BID AWARD FOR, UM, MR. DO A REHABILITATION PROJECT? YEAH.
SO THE, UH, A FEW YEARS AGO WE RECEIVED THE, UH, ARPA FUNDS AND, UH, WE SET ASIDE, UH, ROUGHLY $11.5 MILLION, UH, FOR THE SEWER COMPONENT, UH, AS WELL AS SOME OF THE SEWER FUND BALANCED FOR THESE PROJECTS.
UH, THIS IS ACTUALLY THE LAST PIECE, UH, THAT WILL BE COMING FORWARD TO COUNCIL FOR THE $11.5 MILLION.
UH, WE'RE HOPING THAT ALL THESE PROJECTS THAT WE HAVE MOVING FORWARD WILL, WILL GET US OUT OF THE DEQ CONSENT ORDER THAT WE ARE UNDER.
UM, AND THIS IS THE LAST PIECE THAT'S ACTUALLY OPEN CUT WORK.
UH, MAINLY THAT'LL BE DONE, UH, THROUGH VARIOUS PARTS OF TOWN.
UH, ORIGINALLY, UH, THE BIG CAME IN AT 3.5 MILLION BASED ON THE NEW PROCUREMENT POLICY THAT WE APPROVED.
WE WERE ABLE TO NEGOTIATE DOWN TO GET IT WITHIN THE BUDGETING, UH, BUDGET GUIDELINES FOR, FOR US.
AND WHAT WE DID WAS PRIORITIZE THE, UM, THE WORK THAT'LL BE DONE TO BE THE MOST BENEFICIAL FOR THE TOWN.
THERE IS STILL A LOT OF I AND I WORK TO BE DONE, UH, BUT THIS, UH, WE'RE HOPING WILL AT LEAST, UH, GET US OUT OF THE CONSENT ORDER.
UH, SNYDER ENVIRONMENTAL, I WAS THE ONLY RESPONDENT.
UH, SNYDER ENVIRONMENTAL ALSO HAS THE REDUNDANT WATER LINE AND THE OTHER, UH, MAJOR ION I PROJECT FOR THE SEWER LINING, UH, THAT'S ONGOING.
UM, THEY'RE DOING GOOD WORK FOR US, UH, SO FAR.
AND, UM, I ALWAYS THINK, UH, OUR ENGINEERS THOUGHT THAT THE, UH, RESPONSE WAS REASONABLE, UH, AND, UH, CAN MEET WITHIN THE, UH, GUIDELINES TO GET THIS DONE FOR US.
HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY OTHER QUESTIONS.
WHEN DO YOU THINK THEY'LL START? UH, GOAL IS TO HAVE THEM, UH, START HERE, UH, PROBABLY FEBRUARY, MARCH, UM, UH, TO GET THINGS ROLLING WITH THIS, UM, IF NOT SOONER, BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME AREAS THAT, UH, UM, ARE IN DIRE NEED.
BUT, UH, WE HAVE TO GET THE, ALL THE CONTRACT DOCUMENTS IN PLACE, SO MOST LIKELY BE FEBRUARY.
AND WHAT IS THE TARGET OF COMPLETION? UH, I BELIEVE THIS ONE IS SIX MONTHS.
I CAN'T REMEMBER OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD.
DO YOU HAVE YEAH, I'M NOT FOR SURE, BUT WE CAN GET THAT.
YEAH, I CAN GET BACK TO YOU AND IT, IT, IT IS IN THE DOCUMENTS, BUT I WANT TO SAY IT'S SIX MONTHS, BUT, UM, BUT I, I'LL CERTAINLY GET BACK TO YOU ON THAT.
THIS WAS DEFINITELY A TIME WHEN THE ARPA FUNDS, I'M SORRY, I WAS SAYING THIS IS DEFINITELY A TIME I, I FEEL LIKE, UM, I JUST WANTED TO, TO, TO APPRECIATE THE FORMER PEOPLE I SERVED WITH THAT SAW THE OPPORTUNITY TO USE THESE ARVA FUNDS, WHICH WERE NOT SOMETHING THAT WAS CON AND TO USE IT, YOU KNOW, TO, FOR SOMETHING THAT, WHERE WE WOULDN'T HAVE TO RAISE TAXES TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS.
I'M NOT SAYING THEY WON'T THE
SO THAT WILL BE ON THE CONSENT AGENDA FOR NEXT MONDAY NIGHT.
SO OUR NEXT ITEM, UM, AND THIS IS OLD BUSINESS.
WE HAVE A COUPLE THINGS FOR OLD BUSINESS, BUT, UM, SO AS YOU KNOW, WE TOOK, UH, WELL A, UH, THREE A WAS THE DISCUSSION PERTAINING TO AN ORDINANCE TO MEND TOWN CODE, UH, IN REGARDS TO, UH, URBAN AGRICULTURE AND THE CHICKENS AND THE TOWN LIMIT.
UM, AND WE HAD SAID WE WERE GOING TO, UM, BRING THAT BACK AT THE, AT THE MEETING WE DID NOT TAKE ACTION ON, WE WERE GONNA BRING IT BACK.
AND I BELIEVE THAT MR. WALTZ HAD, UM, I, I MEAN YOU, I, I DON'T WANNA SUGGEST AS THOUGH WAS MY IDEA.
SO YOU WANT SAY WHAT YOU JUST, WHAT YOU GUYS DID? NO, WHAT WE DID IS WE INVITED, UH, COREY CHILDS WITH THE, UH, THE EXTENSION AGENT AT THE VIRGINIA COOPERATIVE EXTENSION, UH, TO TALK ABOUT CHICKENS AND KIND OF GET SOME QUESTIONS ANSWERED FOR THE WEEK.
AND, UH, THE ULTIMATE GOAL IS TO FIND OUT WHERE COUNCIL WANTS TO GO WITH THIS, IF THEY WANNA SEND IT BACK TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION OR TWEAK IT HERE OR WHAT.
SO WHAT WE THOUGHT, WE'D HAVE AN EXPERT HERE TO KIND OF ASK SOME QUESTIONS AND PROVIDE SOME BACKGROUND.
SO, LAUREN, YOU WANNA INTRODUCE
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OUR GUEST? SO THIS IS CORY CHARLES.HE DOES WORK FOR THE BY EXTENSION OFFICE.
WE REVIEWS ALL OF OUR MANAGEMENT PLANS.
SO WHEN SOMEBODY COMES IN AND THEY SAY THAT THEY WANNA GET AN URBAN AGRICULTURE PERMIT, WE TAKE IN THE APPLICATION, THEY SUBMIT A MANAGEMENT PLAN TO US, AND WE ROUTE THAT TO CORY.
CORY THEN REVIEWS IT AND LETS US KNOW IF THERE'S SUFFICIENT SPACE OR THERE ARE ANY ISSUES.
AND THEN AT THAT POINT WE GO AHEAD AND ISSUE THE PERMIT.
SO FOR THIS ORDINANCE AMENDMENT, WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT IS, ARE YOU OKAY WITH APPROVING THE CHANGE IN THE MAXIMUM NUMBER OF CHICKENS FROM SIX CHICKENS TO 10 CHICKENS? AND THEN AMENDING THE LANGUAGE THAT WOULD ALLOW, THAT WOULD REQUIRE A MINIMUM OF FOUR SQUARE FEET OF COOP SPACE PER CHICKEN AND 10 OR EIGHT SQUARE FEET OF RON SPACE PER CHICKEN.
SO MR. CHILDS, DO YOU MIND COMING UP? DO YOU WANNA COME UP HERE AND, AND I WAS GONNA SAY, WE NORMALLY HAVE PEOPLE STAND HERE AT THE PODIUM IF YOU OH.
ONLY SO THAT IT'S ON THE CAMERA, SO THAT IF PEOPLE WANTED TO TUNE IN OR, OR WATCH IT LATER ABOUT THIS.
SO COUNSEL, UM, I DON'T KNOW IF WE WANNA START BY ASKING QUESTIONS OR DO YOU WANNA JUST SPEAK TO THIS OR YOUR, WHAT YOUR THOUGHTS ARE OR, UM, GIVE YOU A LITTLE BIT OF BACKGROUND? OKAY.
UM, THIS WHOLE PROCESS IS SINCE I'VE BEEN DEALING WITH NOT ONLY PERFORM RURAL OR WARREN COUNTY, BUT MULTIPLE COUNTIES, UM, WHO HAVE BEEN TRYING TO IMPLEMENT SOME FORM OF ALLOWANCE TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE IN RAISING BACKYARD POULTRY AS A HOBBY FOR THEIR FAMILIES AND BEEN DOING THAT, I, UH, IT'S PROBABLY BEEN 15 YEARS NOW.
THAT'S ALL BEEN DONE EVERYWHERE.
AND SOME COUNTIES ARE VERY RECEPTIVE.
SOME TOWNS HAVE BEEN RECEPTIVE, SOME HAVE FOUND IT'S MORE DIFFICULT THAN THEY, WHAT I DEAL WITH.
UH, BUT THE WHOLE OBJECTIVE REALLY IS NOT TO MAKE ANYBODY A, UH, PRODUCTION POULTRY PRODUCER.
IT IS SIMPLY A MATTER OF, THERE ARE A LOT OF FAMILIES THAT LIKE POULTRY AND CHICKENS AND THE AESTHETICS OF HAVING THEIR ROUND AND, UH, GETTING A FEW EGGS EVERY NOW AND THEN FOR THEIR ABUSE AND TAKING THAT AND PUTTING IT INTO PRACTICE.
MY GOAL WAS TO MAKE IT MUCH MORE, UM, QUALIFIED THAN RUN DOWN TO SOME LOCAL FARM, A GARDEN STORE AND MINE CHICKENS AT EASTER AND PUT 'EM OUT THERE AND NOT HAVING A MANAGEMENT PLAN, NOT HAVING A PRODUCTION PLAN, NOT MEETING A, THINKING ABOUT ALL THE THINGS THAT GO INTO IT FROM BIOSECURITY TO HUMAN HEALTH, TO CULTURE HEALTH TO NEIGHBORLY AESTHETICS AND ALL THOSE THINGS.
SO WE STARTED DEVELOPING A PLAN, UH, LIKE I SAID, 15 YEARS AGO.
AND OVER THAT TIME,
SO WHAT I'VE DONE IS I STILL WORK WITH MULTIPLE COUNTIES.
I, UH, FOR LOCATIONS AND EACH ONE IS UNIQUELY DIFFERENT.
I TRY TO MAKE SURE THAT THE, UM, AS MUCH AS I CAN, THE AESTHETIC PIECE, THE ZONING PIECE, THE, THE LAND USE IS COVERED BY THE LOCATION, THE LOCALITY.
AND I TAKE CARE OF THE MANAGEMENT SIDE OF IT.
AND I DON'T THINK IT'S TOO MUCH TO ASK ANYBODY THAT'S GOING TO TAKE THIS ON IN A URBAN DENSITY ENVIRONMENT TO PUT TOGETHER THE PLUS PLAN THEY CAN TO SECURE THEIR SAFETY AND THEIR NEIGHBORS AND OTHER PEOPLE AROUND TOWN AND TO ALLOW THEM THAT, TO HAVE THAT PRIVILEGE.
SO THAT'S THE WAY WE'VE WORKED IT.
PEOPLE ALWAYS COME IN WITH A, A PLAN THAT SOME ARE FINE AND WE HAVE TO ASK TO MODIFY A LITTLE BIT, UH, CERTAIN REQUIREMENTS OR REGULATIONS, UH, WHETHER IT BE FOR, UH, UH, BIOSECURITY FOR THE BIRDS, BIOSECURITY FOR PEOPLE, WHETHER IT BE TO LIMIT EXPECTATIONS.
I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE IS THAT IF YOU'VE GOT SIX BIRDS THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, THEY LAY DEPENDING UPON AND THEY CAN LAY AS MANY AS FIVE OR SIX A WEEK, WELL, SUDDENLY YOU'VE GOT SIX TIMES, YOU KNOW, SEVEN,
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VERY FEW FAMILIES EAT 42 EGGS IN A WEEK.NOW THAT'S THE HEAVIEST LAYERS, BUT THEY'RE 240 VARIETIES OF BIRDS, UH, THAT ARE ALLOWED IN THIS COUNTRY AT THIS TIME.
AND THEY RANGE FROM THREE AND A HALF TO FOUR EGGS A DAY OR EGGS A WEEK TO SIX OR IN, USUALLY FOR A WEEK OR TWO, THE BIRDS MIGHT BE GOING SEVEN IN THE VERY STRONGEST OF THEIR, UH, SPRING LIGHT.
AND THE ONE THING YOU CAN'T DO IS REGULATE ALL OF THEM THE SAME WAY, BECAUSE THEY'RE GONNA BE SIZE DIFFERENCES IN THE BIRDS THEMSELVES.
THERE'S GONNA BE NOISE DIFFERENCES THAT THEY MAKE, UH, FLIGHT ISSUES AND BEING CALM AROUND THE PUBLIC IS PROBABLY A GOOD THING TO ASK, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'VE GOT NEIGHBORS RIGHT NEXT DOOR.
UM, SO WE TRY AS MUCH AS WE CAN.
WE'RE LOOKING AT THE MANAGEMENT PLANS TO GET AS MUCH INFORMATION ON TYPE WORK YOU'RE GONNA HAVE, WHETHER THEY'RE GONNA HAVE A RUN OR A MOVABLE COOP, ALL THOSE DIFFERENT THINGS.
HOW THEY'RE GONNA HANDLE THEIR FEED PRODUCTS, HOW THEY'RE GONNA HANDLE THEIR ROAD ISSUES THAT COME ALONG WITH, UH, CHICKENS AND SO FORTH.
HOW THEY'RE GONNA HANDLE THE BIO SECURITY AND, UM, WHAT THEIR PLANS ARE.
I MEAN, UNFORTUNATELY, UH, CHICKENS DO, UH, PASS AWAY, UH, FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.
OR THEY GET OLD IN SOME CASES.
WE HAVE FAMILIES THAT THINK IT'S A NOVEL IDEA TO DO THIS, AND THEN SIX MONTHS LATER IT'S LIKE THE NOVEL, THIS IS WORN OFF.
AND SO THERE'S ANOTHER
UM, YOU KNOW, I, I'D HAVE TO THINK LONG AND HARD, BUT I NEED MORE THAN SIX CHICKENS ON ANY LOT IN TOWN.
IF I WAS OUTSIDE IN THE COUNTY, IN THE URBAN AG AREA OR THE AGRICULTURAL ZONES, THAT'S A DIFFERENT STORY BASED ON LOT SIZE AND SO FORTH IN TOWN.
I, I THINK YOU'RE TRYING TO, OR POTENTIALLY, UH, MEETING THE NEEDS OF SOME CLIENTS THAT ARE VERY GOOD AT WHAT THEY DO WITH THEIR WORDS AND THEY FEEL LIKE THEY CAN HANDLE MORE.
BUT I THINK WHEN YOU START PUTTING OUT THERE AS A BLANKET STATEMENT THAT YOU'RE GONNA HAVE AS MANY WRECKS AS YOU GO ARE POSITIVE AND THE WRECKS ARE GONNA BE, IT, IT, IT DOESN'T, IT'S MUCH HARDER TO GET SOME, SAY SOMETHING POSITIVE BY 12 BIRDS ON A, ON A LOT THAN IT IS TO GET SOMEBODY SAY MUCH NEGATIVE ABOUT 12 BIRDS ON THE LOT.
AND TO ME, JUST KEEP IT SIMPLE.
GOING FIELD SOME QUESTIONS NOW, I THINK.
DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY QUESTION? I, I WAS GONNA ASK WHAT YOU SAID YOU SERVE OTHER AREAS, OR NOT NECESSARILY COUNTIES OR TOWNS OR WHATEVER, BUT IN THE VALLEY OR JUST ACROSS VIRGINIA OR, UM, WELL BASICALLY EITHER TOWNS OR COUNTIES FROM UM, AUGUSTA TO WINCHESTER.
DO OFF THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD, DO ANY OF THE LIKE TOWNS OR YOU KNOW, TOWN, CITIES, THEY DO ANY OF, HAVE ANY OF THOSE PLACES ALLOWED MORE THAN SIX CHICKENS IN TOWN OR CITY OR, UM, NOT IN TOWN.
THAT'S, I I WAS JUST THAT THOSE WERE THE TWO QUESTIONS.
UM, YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT THESE ARE BIRDS.
THEY'RE GONNA BE CAGED IN AND ALL THEY'RE AFFLUENT, ALL THEY'RE UREA THE URINE, EXCUSE ME, THE HIGH PHOSPHATES FROM THE MANURE ARE GONNA BE LANDLOCKED AND THEY'RE NOT GONNA GO AWAY.
SO EVEN IF THEY'RE MOVING AROUND, WE WILL EVENTUALLY GET, UH, I WAS GONNA THAT WOULD YOU LIKE A DRINK? SORRY.
THERE'S A EVENTUAL LOADING POT.
SO I'M THE ONE WHO SENT THIS BACK TO A WORK SESSION.
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UM, I DON'T THINK THE ISSUE THAT THE COUNCIL AT THE TIME HAD WAS INCREASING IT FROM SIX TO 10 CHICKENS.THE ISSUE THAT I HAD VOTING ON THE AMENDMENT THAT WAS BEFORE US AT THAT MEETING IN SEPTEMBER WAS THE FACT THAT WE ARE EXPANDING UPON THE AMOUNT OF CHICKENS THAT WE'RE ALLOWING PROPERTY OWNERS TO HAVE FROM SIX TO 10.
BUT WE WERE REGULATING IT IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE A FINANCIAL BURDEN AND A PHYSICAL IMPACT ON THOSE PROPERTY OWNERS SO MUCH, SO MORE THAN IT WOULD'VE BEEN UNATTAINABLE THAN JUST LEAVING IT AT SIX CHICKENS THE WAY THE CURRENT CODE READ.
SO I GUESS SOME OF MY CONCERNS WERE, IF YOU'RE NOT FAMILIAR, UM, URBAN AGRICULTURE IS VERY IMPORTANT TO ME.
UH, I DON'T THINK WE'RE COMPARABLE TO WINCHESTER OR LEESBURG.
UM, MAYBE IN PARTS AUGUSTA, BUT, AND I DON'T WANNA BE LIKE WINCHESTER OR LEESBURG
UM, AND SO WE DO HAVE LARGE LOT SIZES AND OUR TOWN LIMITS HERE, WE HAVE A VERY HIGH, UM, AMOUNT OF HOMESTEADERS IN THIS AREA.
UM, YOU KNOW, SOME OF OUR AVERAGE LOT SIZES ON HOMES OUT HAPPY CREEK AREA ARE AN ACRE PLUS.
UM, SO ONE OF THE CONCERNS THAT I HAD WAS, I HAD VISITED A HOME THAT HAD CHICKENS ALREADY.
SHE HAD FREE RANGE HENS WITH A SIX OR 10 FOOT PRIVACY FENCE AND THEIR WINGS WERE CLIPPED.
SO THE CHANGES TO THE ZONING ORDINANCE WOULD'VE REQUIRED HER TO AND RETURN BUILD A CHICKEN COOP WITH A RUN FOR EACH OF THOSE.
AND THEY COULDN'T HAVE LEFT THE PRIVACY FENCED IN QUARTER ACRE PLUS LOT AS IT WAS.
UM, AND SO IT'S NOT NEWS TO ANYBODY NEW OR OLD ON THIS COUNCIL THAT I'M BIG ON PROPERTY RIGHTS.
AND I DON'T CARE IF THEY'RE USING 'EM FOR THEM TO EAT THEMSELVES OR TO MAKE SOME MONEY FOR THEIR FAMILY.
UM, WE JUST SAW A TIME, WE JUST CAME OUT OF A TIME WITH MASSIVE, UM, INFLATION WHERE, YOU KNOW, CARTONS OF EGGS WERE GOING FOR $7.
AND SO THE WAY THAT WE BECOME AND MAINTAIN AND CONTINUE TO BE A FRIENDLY TOWN FOR PEOPLE IS TO ALLOW THEM TO BE ABLE TO RAISE THEIR OWN EGGS AND POULTRY.
SO I GUESS MY CONCERN IS, WHILE WE'RE EXPANDING UPON THE NUMBER OF CHICKENS, WE'RE RESTRICTING THE WAY IN WHICH THEY CAN HOUSE THEM.
SO EVEN FOR, YOU KNOW, CLIPPED HENS AND PRIVACY FENCES ON AN ACRE LOT, IS IT COMMON TO REQUIRE A COOP WITH A RUN? IT CAN BE, UM, AN AC LOT.
WHAT ALL ELSE IS ON THAT ACRE LOT? UM, I MEAN, MAYBE A SHED, BUT I MEAN, OUT VAULT, SUBDIVISION, HAPPY CREEK AREA, THOSE HOUSES ARE, YOU KNOW, PRETTY MUCH FLAT LAND.
AND I KNOW THAT THERE'S DIFFERENCES IN LOTS HOUSES ALL OVER MM-HMM.
OUR HISTORIC DISTRICT'S NOT COMPARABLE TO THAT AREA.
AND THEY'RE ALL IN THE TOWN LIMITS.
UM, BUT NOT EVEN IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD.
I MEAN, WHERE YOU AND I LIVE, WE'RE IN TOWN, WE MAYBE, I, I DON'T EVEN HAVE A HALF ACRE, I HAVE TWO.
BUT SEE YOU'RE DOWN THERE BY THE FARM AREA, THE WELL COOK FARM, THAT'S IT.
SAME ROAD IN TWO ACRES VERSUS A QUARTER.
BUT THAT'S 'CAUSE THEY TOOK THAT FARM.
IT'S NOT SO MUCH THE AMOUNT OF CHICKENS THAT I, I MEAN THAT WAS IMPORTANT AND THAT IS WHY I INITIALLY BROUGHT IT UP.
AND SCOTT LLOYD'S LEGACY, GOD BLESS 'EM, UH, THE COUNCIL THAT HE SERVED WITH DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT CHICKENS, DIDN'T CARE ABOUT URBAN AGRICULTURE.
BUT WE, THE INCREASE WASN'T THE ISSUE THAT ANYBODY ON COUNCIL SAW.
IT WAS THE REGULATION IN RECEIVING THE INCREASE.
IT WAS LIKE IT WAS GONNA MAKE IT UNATTAINABLE FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ALREADY HAVE CHICKENS IN THE TOWN LIMITS ABIDING BY OUR CURRENT CODE.
LAUREN, I BELIEVE YOU, YOU HAVE YOUR HAND RAISED.
ANY PROPERTY THAT IS AN ACRE OR LARGER IN TOWN LIMITS DOESN'T HAVE TO APPLY FOR AN URBAN PERMIT.
UM, AND, AND SO THAT'S MOSTLY OUR SMALL LOT AREAS, BUT WE WERE ALREADY, I THINK USING THESE STANDARDS WHEN WE REVIEWED THE MANAGEMENT PLANS, THE, THE FOUR SQUARE FEET ACOUSTIC.
SO THAT'S KIND OF A STANDARD THAT EVERYBODY ALREADY KIND OF APPEARS TO.
BUT THAT WAS THIS YEAR THAT WE REVIEWED THAT MANAGEMENT PLAN, CORRECT? NO, THAT'S SINCE WE'VE BEEN, WHEN CORY REVIEWS THEM, I GOT THOSE NUMBERS WHEN I CALLED CORY THE FOUR SQUARE FEET, THAT WASN'T THIS YEAR.
NO, THAT'S THE STANDARDS THAT WE'VE ALWAYS KIND OF USED.
SO THE POINT WAS WITH THIS, I WANTED TO BE ABLE TO CODIFY IT SO THAT WE HAD A MINIMUM STANDARD.
AND THAT'S MOSTLY FOR THE CARE AND MAKING SURE THAT THESE CHICKENS HAVE AT LEAST ADEQUATE SPACE, THE MINIMUM SPACE REQUIREMENT.
SO CAN YOU TELL ME, AND I MEAN THIS IN THE MOST SINCERE WAY, HOW MANY COMPLAINTS OTHER THAN THE ONE THAT I KNOW ABOUT, UM, HAVE WE HAD FOR CHICKENS CALLED INTO THE ZONING DEPARTMENT? I'VE HAD ONE IN THE TWO YEARS THAT I'VE WORKED THERE.
AND THAT WAS A FORMER COUNCIL PERSON.
SO IT SEEMS LIKE IT WAS POLITICALLY TARGETED.
THE COMPLAINT WAS ABOUT COULD YOU SHARE, JUST SMELL, UM, THAT THE PERSON HADN'T MAINTAINED IT IN A CLEANLY MANNER.
AND THERE WERE, THERE HAVE BEEN TWO, UM,
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INSPECTIONS.'CAUSE WE INSPECTED ANNUALLY, THERE WERE TWO INSPECTIONS THIS YEAR THAT WE, UM, DID NOT RENEW THEIR PERMIT, BUT WE GAVE THEM AN EXTENSION THAT WE WOULD COME BACK IN TWO MONTHS TO MAKE SURE THEY GOT IT CLEANED UP BECAUSE THERE WAS, THERE WAS WRAP PIECES.
SO, UM, WE KNEW THAT THERE WAS A RODENT ISSUE, SO WE WERE GIVING THEM TIME TO FIX IT.
AND HOW MANY, UH, CHICKEN PERMITS THAT HAVE BEEN ISSUED? WE HAVE 51 CURRENTLY IN TOWN.
SO 51 HOMEOWNERS OR PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN HOMES AND THE TOWN LIMITS CURRENTLY HAVE CHICKENS OR ARE ALLOWED TO HAVE CHICKENS.
THERE ARE UNPERMITTED CHICKENS, BUT IF WE DON'T SEE THEM, I DUNNO THAT THEY'RE THERE.
SO THERE'S 51 YOU DO INSPECTIONS ON? WE STARTED OUR ANNUAL INSPECTION.
SO, UM, JOHN I THINK HAS, HAS DONE ALL THE INSPECTIONS THIS YEAR JUST OUTTA CURIOSITY.
UH, IF THEY REQUEST THE PERMIT DO ALL 51 HALF CHICKENS OR, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? LIKE, SO THAT'S ALSO WHAT WE'VE BEEN VERIFYING TOO.
SO, UM, CAROL, WE, WE CREATED A LIST IN OUR SYSTEM OF ALL OF THE AG PERMITS WE CURRENTLY HAVE.
AND THEN WE HAVE CALLED EACH ONE TO SET UP A TIME FOR AN INSPECTION.
SOME OF THEM, IF THEY SAY, HEY, WE DON'T HAVE CHICKENS ANYMORE, WE JUST, UM, MAKE A NOTE OF IT IN OUR SYSTEM AND THEN WE JUST, WE'VE GOT A, A REMINDER SET UP.
SO IT EMAILS US WHEN IT'S TIME TO DO OR RENEW THEIR, THEIR APPLICATION.
WELL, AND SO AT THAT POINT THEY MIGHT HAVE CHICKENS BY THE TIME YOU DO THE REMINDER, BUT OF THOSE 51 OF THOSE 51, HOW MANY HAVE SAID WE DON'T HAVE CHICKENS ANYMORE? I'M CURIOUS.
BE ONLY BECAUSE WHAT MR. CHILD JUST SAID ABOUT THE NOVELTY WEARING OFF OR, OR TWO PEOPLE'S LIVES CHANGE.
I MEAN, YOU MIGHT HAVE MORE TIME, MAYBE YOUR CHILDREN GROW OLDER AND THEY WERE PART OF THE PLAN.
AND I THINK I KNOW OF THREE WHERE WHEN CAROL CALLED SAID, HEY, WE DON'T, WE DON'T HAVE CHICKENS ANYMORE.
OR, UM, WE'VE HAD SOME THAT HAVE CALLED IN AND SAID, HEY, I JUST BOUGHT A HOUSE AND THE PEOPLE LEFT THEIR CHICKENS.
WHAT DO I DO? SO WE HAVE THEM COME IN AND GET A PERMIT.
SO, AND I DON'T HAVE A PERMIT YET, BUT THE NEXT QUESTION I HAVE IS OUT OF THOSE 51, THAT'S AN AG PERMIT, SO THEY COULD BE FOR RABBITS OR BEEKEEPING.
THAT'S NOT TO SAY THEY'RE 51 PEOPLE THAT ARE JUST RAISING CHICKENS IN THE TOWN.
AND WE DO, WE INSPECT RABBIT HUTCHES AND JOHN HAD TO GO OUT AND, AND LOOK AT A BEEHIVE.
AND YOU'VE HAD ONE COMPLAINT IN TWO YEARS.
SO THAT JUST BRINGS ME BACK TO THE HOUSE IN QUESTION.
AND ANYBODY HERE SAW IT IN THE PACKET, IF YOU REVIEWED THE PACKET BEFORE YOU GOT HERE TONIGHT, IT'S ON 1805 BELMONT AVENUE.
IT'S A SIX FOOT FENCE THAT'S IN THE PACKET.
UM, I MEAN IF, IS IT, IS IT COVERED THE, HAVE YOU LAUREN BEEN TO THE 1805? I MEAN, I COULDN'T SEE OVER HER PRIVACY FENCE AND THEY WEREN'T COMING OVER IT, SO I DIDN'T, I'VE BEEN IN HER BACKYARD.
DOES SHE HAVE A PERMIT? SHE'S GOT A PERMIT.
I MEAN SHE TAKES WONDERFUL CARE OF THOSE CHICKENS.
OUR ISSUE IS THAT IF THERE'S AN ANIMAL RUNNING AT LARGE IN TOWN, IT'S AT LARGE.
I MEAN, I'M NOT, I'M NOT SEEKING IT OUT, BUT IF A NEIGHBOR DOES CALL AND COMPLAIN AND SAY, THERE'S CHICKENS RUNNING AROUND IN MY YARD, WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO GO OUT.
AND I GET THAT AND I RESPECT THAT.
AND I'M REALLY TRYING TO NOT BE CONFRONTATIONAL, BUT THERE ARE CATS RUNNING THROUGH MY YARD EVERY SINGLE FREAKING DAY.
AND I'M NOT CALLING THE ZONING DEPARTMENT TO REPORT WHICH HOUSE IS FEEDING THEM AND MAINTAINING THEM.
SO I JUST, I FEEL LIKE YOU DON'T HAVE A CAT ORDER CHIEF WOULDN'T THAT? 'CAUSE I GET CALLED AND I GET IT.
AND I KEEP TELLING THERE'S NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT THE GAS.
I MEAN, I, I'M VERY GRATEFUL FOR RURAL KING.
I'M A LOYAL SUPPORTER OF THEM, BUT I, I DON'T SEE PEOPLE GOING AND BUYING PEEPS FOR EAST.
BUT OUTTA THOSE 51 ALSO, I DON'T THINK THE PEOPLE THAT ARE DOING THAT ARE GETTING PERMITS FOR THEM.
SO WE'RE OVERREGULATING SOMETHING THAT'S PUNISHING THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO.
IN MY OPINION, I JUST, I'M NOT, I'M NOT PREPARED TO MOVE THIS FORWARD AT A COUNCIL MEETING WITH ADDING THE REGULATION THAT WE DID, UM, TO INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF CHICKENS.
I THINK IT'S A DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD.
WE CAN HAVE 10 CHICKENS INSTEAD OF SIX, BUT THEN YOU HAVE TO BUILD A COOP AND A RUN, WHICH YOU DIDN'T ALREADY HAVE WITH YOUR SIX CHICKENS, DIDN'T PASS ANY PLANS THAT DIDN'T HAVE A COOP OR A RUN LIKE
WELL, SO HOW DOES THE WOMAN AT 1805 NOT HAVE HER PERMIT REVOKED? BECAUSE SHE HAD A COOP, HER INITIAL MANAGEMENT PLAN, SHE HAD A CLOSED COOP.
IS THE COOP NOT THERE ANYMORE? I HAVEN'T SEEN IT.
I JUST REMEMBER HIM SAYING, SO I WOULD ASSUME IT WOULD BE REVOKED IF THE COOP WAS GONE.
BUT THEY DON'T HAVE, THEY'RE NOT CONFINED TO THE CO COOP IN THE RUN BECAUSE THEIR WINGS ARE CLIPPED.
BUT IF SHE WERE TO DO THAT AND WE WERE TO SEE IT, LIKE IF SHE DIDN'T HAVE THAT FENCE AND WE DROVE BY AND SAW CHICKENS RUNNING AROUND THE YARD,
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WE WOULD HAVE TO CITE HER.AND I THINK SHE UNDERSTANDS THAT LIABILITY.
AND I THINK THE CHIEF CAN SPEAK TO THIS.
THERE, THERE ARE LAWS IN PLACE FOR TRAFFIC VIOLATIONS EVERY SINGLE DAY THAT ARE IN PLACE.
BUT IF PEOPLE VIOLATE THEM AND WE SEE IT, WE HAVE TO CITE THEM AND CHARGE THEM.
I MEAN, I, I DON'T, I DON'T THINK THIS IS BEING FRIENDLY AS A TOWN WHO THRIVES IN URBAN AGRICULTURE AND HOMESTEAD.
WHO ELSE HAS, DOES ANYONE ELSE WANNA SPEAK? YEAH, I WAS GONNA SAY, I'M, GO AHEAD BRUCE.
DO YOU WANNA GO AROUND THE TABLE? WE CAN GO AROUND OR MAYBE NOT EVERYBODY HAS ANYTHING TO SAY.
DO YOU WANNA GO NEXT? WELL, UH, I I I WAS, I WAS NOT IN, IN FAVOR OF, UH, RAISING THE NUMBER OF CHICKENS.
UH, I'LL, I'LL, UH, DIGRESS TO, UH, BLACKSBURG FOR EXAMPLE.
UH, THAT'S A AGGIE SCHOOL AND UH, THEY ONLY ALLOW SIX AND, AND I HAVE A LITTLE BIT EXPERIENCE WITH FARM ANIMALS.
UH, NOT NECESSARILY FARM ANIMALS, RACE HORSES.
I HAD, I DON'T THINK THEY'RE COMPARABLE RESOURCE.
AND YOU GOTTA KEEP THESE THINGS CLEAN.
BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT OUR GUEST IS ALLUDING TO, IS IF YOU DON'T KEEP THINGS CLEAN, THEN IT BECOMES A HEALTH HAZARD FOR THE COMMUNITY.
UH, UH, THERE WILL BE SOME PEOPLE THAT WILL BE, UH, YOU KNOW, HARD NOSED AND, AND THEY'RE REALLY INTO IT.
AND THERE WILL BE OTHERS THAT, UM, COULD, WILL SLACK OFF AND THAT, THAT THAT CONCERNS AND, UM, IT'S NOT FAIR TO THE ANIMAL.
IT'S NOT FAIR TO THE NEIGHBORS, UM, COMMUNITY.
SO I, YOU KNOW, I'M COMFORTABLE WITH KEEPING THE NUMBER AT SIX.
I THINK OUR GUEST ALLUDED TO THAT.
UM, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE PRODUCING SIGNIFICANT EGGS A WEEK ON SIX EGGS A WEEK.
IS THAT WHAT YOU SAID? NO, SIX FOUR.
YOU CAN HAVE PER WEEK CHICKENS THAT LAY SIX EGG A DAY UP TO SIX DURING A WEEK.
OR YOU CAN HAVE OTHER CHICKENS THAT LAY THREE TO FOUR.
SO WE'RE LOOKING AT FOUR TO 30, 30.
AND YOU SAID PEOPLE PER WEEK EAT EGGS AT, AT MY HOUSE.
UNFOR, UNFORTUNATELY, THEY, WE EAT SIX EGGS IN A DAY.
I MEAN, WE ALSO HAVE A VERY LARGE CATHOLIC COMMUNITY HERE WHO, A LOT OF MY FRIENDS HAVE MORE THAN FIVE KIDS.
I HAVE THREE AND WE GO THROUGH SIX EGGS IN A DAY.
BUT I JUST, I UNDERSTAND AND I RESPECT WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM.
INCREASING THE NUMBER WASN'T THE ISSUE THE LAST TIME.
I KNOW YOU'VE NEVER BEEN IN FAVOR OF THAT.
AND AGAIN, I'LL REITERATE, WE'RE NOT COMPARABLE TO BLACKSBURG.
AND I DON'T KNOW THAT I WANT TO BE LIKE BLACKSBURG.
UM, I THINK WE, WE WE'RE MORE COMPARABLE THAN YOU REALIZE.
BUT I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S THE GOVERNMENT OR THIS COUNCIL'S JOB TO SAY, OKAY, YOU'RE SAYING TO BE FAIR AS A COMMUNITY AND TO OUR NEIGHBORS, WELL, WE ALL HAVE NEIGHBORS WHO DON'T MAINTAIN THEIR PROPERTY.
SHOULD WE TAKE THEIR PROPERTY RIGHTS AWAY FROM THEM? I MEAN, IT'S JUST, THIS IS A LITTLE BIT, WE'RE NOT, WE'RE NOT TAKING NEIGHBORS AWAY, AWAY FROM THEM.
WE'RE, BUT YOU'RE SAYING TO BE A GOOD NEIGHBOR, THEY SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO HAVE MORE CHICKENS.
AND ALSO, IF WE'RE DOING ANNUAL INSPECTIONS, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE DONE AN INSPECTION ON SOMETHING AND REVOKED A PERMIT OR CITED THEM? IF WE'RE DOING OUR DUE DILIGENCE, THEN IT'S NOT GOING TO BE A SAFETY AND HEALTH HAZARD.
AND HOW MANY INSPECTIONS HAVE WE DONE? WE DO IT EVERY SINGLE YEAR.
EVERY YEAR, EVERY PROPERTY THAT HAS A PERMIT.
BUT DO WE DO IT THROUGHOUT THE YEAR? WELL, WHY WOULD YOU IF THERE'S NO COMPLAINT? YEAH, IT'S THE COUP.
OR WE GO TO SOMEONE'S HOUSE AND SAY, WE'RE FROM THE GOVERNMENT, WE'RE HERE TO HELP YOU.
LIKE ARE YOUR CHICKENS TAKEN CARE OF? I'M JUST, I'M JUST NO, I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.
I'M JUST SAYING THAT FROM A A HEALTH PERSPECTIVE, I THINK SIX, SIX CHICKEN CHICKENS IS, I THINK SIX DOGS IS TOO MANY.
BUT WHO AM I TO TELL MY NEIGHBORS THAT? AND I THINK AS LONG AS THE DOGS AGREE, I DO RESPECT YOUR OPINION.
I JUST, I ALSO THINK OUTTA THESE 51 PEOPLE WHO HAVE PERMITS, THERE'S PROBABLY 51 THAT ARE DOING IT THAT WE DON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT.
AND THERE'S NEVER BEEN A COMPLAINT CALLED IN AND THEY'RE DOING IT WITHOUT A PERMIT.
SO I RESPECT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO DO IT, THE LEGAL AND RIGHT WAY.
UM, I DON'T HAVE ANY NEIGHBORS THAT HAVE CHICKENS.
UM, MY NEIGHBORS HAD RABBITS UNTIL THE BEAR GOT 'EM ALL.
UM, YOU DON'T HEAR THE ROOSTER.
YEAH, THERE'S A ROOSTER IN OUR
[00:30:01]
AGE TOO.BUT I DID HAVE AN EXPERIENCE, UH, GROWING UP.
I HAD THAT EXPERIENCE ABOUT THE NOVELTY OF IT.
THE NEIGHBORS GOT DUCKS FOR, FOR EASTER AND IT WAS SUCH A GREAT LITTLE CUTE IDEA.
AND THEN, YOU KNOW, IT GOT OUT OF CONTROL AND STANK UP THE WHOLE, WE SHARED THE SAME YARD, YOU KNOW, BESIDE THEM.
SO, BUT WHAT OTHER QUESTIONS DO PEOPLE HAVE? 'CAUSE I WANNA GIVE EVERYBODY ELSE OPPORTUNITY.
EVERYONE, EVERYBODY CAN, I JUST WANT EVERYBODY.
'CAUSE IF, IF, IF WE'RE LEAVING IT AS IT IS, IT SOUNDS LIKE THOUGH, EVEN IF COUNSEL WANTED TO LEAVE IT AS IT IS, IT'S NOT CODIFIED, RIGHT? ISN'T THAT WHAT YOU JUST SAID? I, WHAT I'M SAYING IS THE STANDARDS THAT WE'VE PUT IN THERE TO CODIFY IT ARE THE STANDARDS THAT WE CURRENTLY USE AND MEASURE THESE MANAGEMENT PLANS BY.
BUT NOW I JUST HAVE IT IN THE CODE SO THAT WHEN SEE WE GO AND DO AN INSPECTION AND THEY'RE NOT MEETING IT LIKE THEY, 'CAUSE I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES PEOPLE WILL SAY, OH, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M DOING.
AND THEN WE GET OUT THERE ON AN INSPECTION AND IT'S NOT WHAT THEY SUBMITTED.
UM, THAT JUST GIVES ME A LITTLE BIT MORE TEETH, A LITTLE BIT MORE RECOURSE TO ACTUALLY REVOKE THE PERMIT.
THAT'S WHY WE WANTED TO TYPE UP SOME OF THE LANGUAGE.
I'D LIKE TO,
NO, I WAS JUST GONNA SAY EXACTLY WHAT LAUREN SAID, THAT THIS IS JUST BASICALLY CODIFYING WHAT STANDARDS WE ALREADY USE.
SO IN MY OPINION, YOU KNOW, IT IT, IT DOES PROVIDE A LITTLE EDUCATION LEVEL FOR THE CITIZENS TO KNOW SOME OF THOSE REQUIREMENTS.
BUT IT'S NOT NECESSARY IN MY OPINION BECAUSE WE ALREADY APPLY THOSE STANDARDS TO CURRENT PERMIT.
SO, AND COULD REVOKE IT EVEN IF IT'S NOT CODIFIED.
YOU COULD STILL REMOVE THEIR PERMIT.
A COUPLE INSTANCES WHERE WE SAID, HEY, THERE'S EVIDENCE OF RODENT HERE.
YOU HAVE ONE CHANCE TO FIX THIS WHERE I'M REVOKING YOUR PERMIT AND YOU'LL BE GETTING RID OF YOUR CHECK.
AND THEN THAT'S ALSO WHY WE AMENDED THE LANGUAGE TO STATE THAT IF THERE IS EVIDENCE OF RODENTS FOUND, IT'S LIKE PRIMA FASCIA EVIDENCE THAT THERE'S VIOLATION AND WE CAN REVOKE IT.
SO WE JUST TIGHTENED UP THE LANGUAGE THROUGHOUT THE ORDINANCE TO MAKE IT A LITTLE EASIER ON STAFF TO ENFORCE.
AND THIS WAS ACTUALLY BROUGHT, WELL, THE, THE DISCUSSION OF IT WAS BROUGHT BECAUSE THE CITIZEN DID COME IN AND TALK ABOUT INCREASING THE NUMBER.
WE WOULD HAVE STUDENT INSPECTION.
THEY HAD MORE CHICKENS THAN WERE PERMITTED.
AND SO, BUT THEN THEY CAME TO COUNCIL AND TALKED TO US ABOUT IT.
BUT I BELIEVE THE REASON WHY THEY HAD MORE WAS BECAUSE SOMEBODY THEY KNEW WAS GETTING RID OF THEIRS.
NO, THEY WERE MOVING AND THEY WERE IN BETWEEN HOMES.
THEY WERE MOVING, THEY WERE HOLDING THEM TEMPORARILY.
I JUST KNEW THAT IT WAS SOME REASON WHY THEY WEREN'T, THEY DIDN'T LIKE GO OUT AND BUY THAT MANY CHICKENS.
WE DID NOT MADE THEM DO ANYTHING WITH THOSE CHICKENS.
BUT I STILL THINK IT'S INCREASED MARKET FOR CHICKENS WITHOUT A PERMIT.
SO DID YOU SAY IT? TELL, SAY AGAIN, YOUR INSPECTION SCHEDULE, LIKE WHEN YOU GET TO PERMIT, IT'S A YEAR FROM WHENEVER YOU APPLY.
SO THEY'RE STAGGERED THROUGHOUT THE YEAR.
WE'RE NOT JUST TAKING A BLOCK OF TIME AND INSPECTING 51 COOPS.
WE SET A, A THING IN OUR, OUR SYSTEM ONE YEAR FROM THE DATE OF THAT ISSUANCE, JOHN GOES OUT AND DOES AN INSPECTION.
SO WE TYPICALLY CALL THEM A MONTH OUT AND SAY, HEY, YOU NEED TO RENEW YOUR AG PERMIT.
THERE'S NO FEE, BUT WE DO NEED TO COME AND DO AN INSPECTION.
I WAS WONDERING ABOUT THAT TOO.
SO THEY DON'T, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY AGAIN, IT'S JUST NO, WE DON'T CHARGE NO VERIFY.
I WAS JUST THINKING LIKE USED TO BE WHEN YOU HAD THE DOG TAG, LIKE YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR THAT EVERY YEAR.
YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING? THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT I WAS THINKING.
I WAS JUST, UM, SO I WONDER, I WONDER A COUPLE OF THINGS, BUT I, I MEAN I DON'T KNOW HOW ADMINISTRATIVELY DIFFICULT THIS WOULD BE, BUT I WONDER IF, UM, TO RESOLVE THE ISSUE OF, UM, OF PEOPLE GETTING TIRED OF THE CHICKENS.
YOU KNOW, IF, IF DURING YOUR FIRST YEAR YOUR, YOUR LIMIT IS AS IS AT, YOU KNOW, AT SIX AND THEN AT UPON INSPECTION, IF THINGS ARE GOING OKAY A YEAR LATER, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE ALLOWED TO INCREASE UP TO 10 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
AND I ALSO WONDERED ABOUT, UM, I DID, I, UM, DON'T RECALL.
I WAS WONDERING ABOUT THE FENCE ISSUE BECAUSE IF, UM, IF, HOW HARD THAT WOULD BE TO, TO ELABORATE ON THAT IN THE CODE.
YOU KNOW, IF, IF YOU HAVE, IF YOU HAVE A COMPLETE PRIVACY FENCE AND THE WINGS ARE CLIPPED AS YOU INDICATED AND YOU NOT SEEM RODENT ISSUES OR WHATEVER, YOU KNOW, COULD, COULD THAT BE ALLOWABLE OR DO THEY, BUT I SUPPOSE THEY DO NEED A, A NESTING PLACE OR WHATEVER, A COOP, WHICH SHE SAID SHE HAD THE COOP, BUT SHE SAID THE RUN WAS NOT REQUIRED WHEN SHE GOT HER PERMIT.
THE FOUR FOOT OF RUN PER CHICKEN.
I MEAN, BECAUSE I COULD IMAGINE SOMEBODY HAVING A COMPLETE, YOU KNOW, A COMPLETE CONTAINED YARD WITH A FENCE THAT CHICKENS COULDN'T EASILY, EASILY GET OUT AND, AND WANTING THEM TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT IN SOME CASES.
[00:35:01]
MEAN, AND, AND THIS IS AT THEIR OWN RISK.I MEAN IT'S NOT NECESSARILY MAYBE THE CHICKENS CAN'T GET OUT, BUT WHAT CAN GET IN, WHAT CAN COME UNDER THE FENCE? WHAT COULD COME OVER AND THAT'S THEIR LIABILITY, ASSUME.
WELL, IT CAN DO THAT WITH THE COOP TOO.
YOU KNOW, I MEAN THEY CAN GET, I MEAN, BOX BEAR, WHATEVER RABBIT THE THING MEANS DOES NOT MEAN THE BIRDS CAN'T FIND OVER.
UM, IT MEANS THAT REDUCES THE ABILITY THAT THEY CAN APPLY FOR A SHORT DISTANCE LIST TO THE TOP OF THE FENCE NUMBER.
THERE'S NO SCREEN OR ANYTHING.
UM, THE PROBLEM AGAIN, IT'S NOT HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT TO PROTECT THE BIRD OR NOT.
UM, IF YOU'RE HAVING 'EM OUT RUNNING OPENS, IT'S, IT'S PROBABLY THE HEALTHIEST THING FOR THIS.
BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, WITH ALL THE DIFFERENT PREDATORS THAT ARE AROUND, UM, THEY MAY, THEIR LIFE SPAN MAY BE SHORTENED.
AND HE JUST SAID IT'S HEALTHIER TO LET THEM RUN.
BUT WHO ARE WE TO SAY WE'RE, I MEAN, I'VE NEVER SEEN ANY OF YOU BEING ANIMAL ACTIVISTS FOR ANY OTHER TYPE OF ANIMAL.
AND I'M NOT SAYING THAT IN A CONDESCENDING MANNER.
I'M JUST SAYING IF I BUY SIX CHICKENS AND PUT THEM IN MY BACKYARD WITH A COOP AND A FENCED IN PRIVACY FENCE, IT'S NOT Y'ALL'S RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT THEM FROM A PREDATOR.
UNLESS, UNLESS IT BRINGS, UNLESS IT BRINGS PROBLEMS LIKE THE ROAD.
I THINK THAT WOULD BRING THAT REGARDLESS.
IF YOU HAVE A, I GET LOTS OF QUESTIONS FROM PEOPLE THAT HAVE, I DON'T KNOW IF THEY HAVE PERMITS.
SOME OF I DO BECAUSE I REMEMBER THE PERMITS.
BUT OTHERS THAT COME IN TO ASK A QUESTION, I, THERE'S A LOT OF MANAGEMENT PROTOCOLS, BUT I DEAL WITH, WITH PEOPLE ALL OVER THAT, UM, HAVE RUN INTO A PROBLEM.
THEY THOUGHT THEY DID IT WELL BASED ON WHAT THEY SAW ON YOUTUBE
UM, I WENT TO YOUTUBE UNIVERSITY.
UM, BUT THERE'S GOOD INFORMATION AND THERE'S BAD INFORMATION.
AND MANY TIMES PEOPLE COMES IN MY DOOR 'CAUSE I ANSWER QUESTIONS IN ALL FORMS OF LIFESTYLE.
AND THEY ARE, THEY HAVE THEIR BACKGROUND.
I MEAN, THEY, I ADMIRE PEOPLE WANTING TO GET THEIR HANDS DIRTY AND GET BACK TO HOME SETTING AS MUCH AS THEY CAN BASED ON WHAT THEIR OPTIONS ARE AND ALL THOSE THINGS.
BUT IT'S, IT'S HARD WHEN YOU HAVE NO, UH, BASE TO DRAW FROM AND YOU BUILD YOUR BASE ON INFORMATION THAT YOU COULD COLLECT.
AND I DON'T MEAN TO, UM, DISCRETE YOUTUBE, BUT
THEY'VE BEEN BOUGHT CHICKENS THREE MONTHS AGO, IT'S WORKING OUT AND THEY'RE DOING WELL.
OR GOATS OR SHEEP OR PIGS OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.
WELL, TO ME, YOU SHOULDN'T PUT YOURSELF OUT THERE AS A KNOWLEDGE BASE OR A RESOURCE UNTIL YOU HAVE FOUR OR FIVE YEARS AT LEAST OF THAT BACKGROUND IN PRODUCTION SO THAT YOU CAN SAY, I'VE SEEN THIS, I'VE DONE THAT, I'VE HAD TO DEAL WITH THAT.
AND ALL THESE PEOPLE COME IN AND MANY OF 'EM THINK THEY KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW, BUT OKAY, THEY THOUGHT THEY KNEW THAT AND SAID THAT THEY'RE IN TROUBLE.
AND THE EDUCATIONAL PIECE, UM, YES, WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS YOU CAN'T PROTECT PEOPLE FROM THEMSELVES.
SO LOW RISK IT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE WOULD BE MY SUGGESTION WITHOUT TAKING ANY PROPERTY R AWAY OR TRYING TO MAKE IT TOO HARD OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
UM, I DO THINK THERE'S AMOUNT OF, WE HAVE TO PROTECT THE COMMUNITY.
WE HAVE TO PROTECT THE HEALTH, WE HAVE TO PROTECT THE, WE ALSO HAVE TO PROTECT THOSE ANIMALS, WHETHER THEY'RE RABBITS OR WHETHER THEY'RE
YOU HAVE TO WALK AROUND AND UNFORTUNATELY ALL OF US DON'T SEE THE SAME THINGS ALL THE TIME.
SO WE'RE NEVER GOING TO AGREE COMPLETELY.
AND WHAT'S THE PERFECT RESPONSE TO THIS ISSUE? I LIKE THE WAY YOU SAID THAT IN THE END.
WE COULD SAY THAT ABOUT JUST ABOUT ALL OF THE ISSUES BEFORE US.
LET ME, LET ME JUST MAKE SURE THAT NO ONE ELSE HAD ANY QUESTIONS FOR MR. CHILD.
AND THEN, AND THEN JOE WAS GONNA SAY, SO GLEN, DID YOU HAVE ANYTHING YOU WANNA ASK FOR OFFER? I HAVE A COMMENT.
[00:40:01]
ALL HAVE ANY QUESTIONS? I DON'T HAVE ANY QUESTIONS.WELL COMMENT ON GLEN, WE'LL START, START WITH YOU UNLESS JOE WANTS TO COMMENT.
NO, I JUST WANTED TO MAKE A COMMENT THAT I THINK STAFF KIND OF CONFUSED THE SITUATION.
WE WERE TRYING TO PROBABLY DO OUR DUE DILIGENCE TO ADD SOME CODE IN HERE ON WHAT WE'RE ALREADY DOING.
SO I THINK THE ADDITION IN THE CODE H WE'RE ALREADY DOING THOSE PERFORMANCE STANDARDS SO NECESSARILY THEY DON'T NEED TO BE CODIFIED.
WHILE I WOULD RECOMMEND THEY BE CODIFIED, THEY DON'T NECESSARILY, SO I THINK STAFF KIND OF CONFUSED THE SITUATION BY ADDING THIS WHEN REAL, THE, THE REAL DECISION WAS GOING FROM SIX TO 10 MM-HMM.
UM, SO I APOLOGIZE ON THAT PART, BUT STAFF WAS JUST TRYING TO CLOSE AN OPEN-ENDED CIRCLE ON, ON THE MANAGEMENT PLAN AND HOW THEY MANAGE THESE CHICKENS.
DURING THE ELECTION ON, I PROBABLY KNOCKED ON SOMEWHERE NORTH OF 2004 AND GOT IN FRONT OF THE HOMEOWNER THIRD, FOURTH AT THE TIME, I CAN TELL YOU OUR POPULATION'S NOT CONCERNED ABOUT THE NUMBER OF CHICKENS.
THEY'RE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT OUR ENFORCEMENT AS FAR AS THEIR PROPERTY RIGHTS TO LIVE IN A TOWN IN AN URBAN SETTING WITHOUT HAVING ANNOYANCES.
AND, AND YOU HIT IT ON THE, AND THEN THEY ONLY HIT CHICKENS.
WHY DO WE NEED MORE IF THEY'RE SELLING THEM, THEN MAKE 'EM GET A BUSINESS LICENSE.
DOGS, THE NUMBER OF DOGS PEOPLE HAVE THAT BARK CONTINUOUSLY AND FERAL CATS.
SO I'M NOT SURE WHY WE'RE SPENDING A HALF AN HOUR MORE DEBATING A CHICKEN ORDINANCE THAT AFFECTS LESS THAN A QUARTER PERCENT OF OUR POPULATION.
I JUST DON'T SEE THAT AS GOOD USE OF THIS COUNCIL'S TIME.
UH, AGAIN, YOU DECIDE, WE ALL DECIDE WHERE WE WANT TO LIVE.
AND THERE'S CERTAIN NORMALCY IN LIVING IN A, UH, A TOWN.
WE HAVE A, A POLICE DEPARTMENT, WE HAVE STREET SWEEPERS AND, AND OTHER SERVICES.
PEOPLE WHO WANT MORE AGRICULTURAL OPPORTUNITIES HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO MOVE INTO THE COUNTY.
WE HAVE A PROFESSIONAL TELLING US IN HIS PROFESSIONAL OPINION WHAT WE NEED TO DO.
WE HAVE A ZONING DEPARTMENT AND, AND, AND THE CHIEF HERE, CHIEF, CAN I ASK YOU A QUESTION SIR? DO YOU ENFORCE EVERY SPEED LIMIT A MILE OVER? YES.
IT'S TIME SELECTIVE, ISN'T IT? IF I'M DISCRETION, IF I'M GOING DOWN ROYAL AVENUE AT 28, YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT GONNA PULL ME.
RIGHT? THE JUDGE WOULD LOSE HIS MIND.
BUT IF I'M 45, 50 DOWN THROUGH ROYAL, PROBABLY GONNA GET A BLUE LIGHT SPECIAL.
RIGHT? AND I THINK ON, AND I DISAGREE A LITTLE WITH WHAT JOE SAID BECAUSE I WAS ON THE PLANNING COMMISSION STILL ON IT.
FORNELL, YOU GUYS CAME TO US AND YOU SAID, YOU KNOW, DO THE DUE DILIGENCE, DO THIS, BRING IN THE EXPERT, FIND OUT WHAT OTHER COMMUNITIES ARE DOING.
WE DON'T HAVE TO BE EVERY OTHER COMMUNITY, BUT WE DO LOOK FOR PATTERNS AND WHAT WORKS IN OTHER COMMUNITIES.
WHAT PLANNING AND ZONING SIMPLY NEEDS IS THAT SPEED LIMIT TO ENFORCE.
SHE'S NOT GONNA GO, OR, OR, UH, JOHN OR TOM OR ANYBODY'S NOT GONNA GO LOOK OVER A SIX FOOT PRIVACY FENCE ACCOUNT CHICKEN.
THEY'RE GONNA GO IN IT ONCE A YEAR AND THEY'RE GONNA DO THEIR INSPECTION TO MAKE SURE THE HEALTH WELFARE OF NOT ONLY THE CHICKENS BUT OF THE NEIGHBORS ARE SERVED SO WELL.
CLEANING COMMISSION WAS OKAY WITH INCREASING IT FROM SIX TO 10.
WELL, AND I WAS THAT'S NOT, I WAS TOO, THAT'S NOT THE QUESTION HERE.
I VOTED FOR IT AS WELL UNTIL I TALKED TO OUR CITIZENS WHO OVERWHELMINGLY DON'T WANT MORE CHICKENS.
THEY WANT US TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE DOGS BARKING INCESSANTLY.
AND I, I COULD SHOW YOU WENT UP ON WASHINGTON AVENUE WHERE THE HOUSE IS THERE, THE END OF THE HOUSE IS OPEN AND PEOPLE SAY RACCOONS, SKUNKS.
I'VE GOTTEN THAT CALL SAID ON COUNSEL.
OVERWHELMINGLY, MY FEEDBACK IS WE NEED URBAN AGRICULTURE MORE FRIENDLY.
AND I DISAGREE ALSO BECAUSE EVEN BEING IN THE MORTGAGE INDUSTRY, PEOPLE ARE MOVING HERE BECAUSE WE ARE URBAN AGRICULTURE.
THEY'RE MOVING HERE BECAUSE WE DO HAVE THE LOWEST REAL ESTATE TAXES.
THEY'RE MOVING HERE BECAUSE WE ARE RURAL.
SO I MEAN, I, I JUST, THEY MIGHT BE UPSET ABOUT THE DOGS, BUT WE CAN DO BOTH ISSUES.
THIS IS BACK AGAIN FOR 30 MINUTES BECAUSE IT'S SOMETHING THAT I PROMISED AND COMMITTED THE FIRST TIME WHEN I KNOCKED 3,200 DOORS AND GOT ELECTED FOR MY
[00:45:01]
FIRST ELECTION THAT I WOULD KEEP AT UNTIL WE CAME TO A CONSENSUS.IF YOU GUYS DON'T WANT 10 CHICKENS, I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU'RE LOOKING AT ME LIKE THAT.
YOU CAN LOOK AT ANY OF MY FORUMS I PROMISED I'D BRING URBAN AGRICULTURE BACK FOR SCOTT LLOYD.
IF YOU GUYS DON'T WANT 10 CHICKENS AND YOU'RE NOT, IT'S LET'S COMPROMISE FOR EIGHT.
IT'S NOT THE NUMBER OF CHICKENS THAT I'M DEBATING TONIGHT.
AND SO THAT WOMAN DID HAVE A COOP, BUT THE MORE I LOOK AT IT, THE RUN SPACE IS EIGHT SQUARE FEET PER CHICKEN.
SO EVEN IF I HAVE A HALF ACRE LOT AND A SIX FOOT PRIVACY FENCE AROUND THE ENTIRE THING, AND I HAVE A NICE COOP, I'VE SEEN PEOPLE THAT HAVE COOPS FOR NICER THAN MY SHED OR GARAGE, BUT EIGHT SQUARE RUN FEET FOR EACH CHICKEN IS A LOT OF RUN.
AND THE PROFESSIONAL DIDN'T SAY THAT 10 WAS TOO MANY.
HIS, HIS ARGUMENT WASN'T AGAINST THAT.
HE ALSO SAID THAT THEY WERE HEALTHIER WHEN THEY COULD RANGE.
HE SAID FREE RANGING CHICKENS ARE HEALTHIER.
AND I UNDERSTAND THAT ZONING NEEDS SOMETHING TO BE ABLE TO ENFORCE IT, BUT I JUST, I DON'T, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT EVERYBODY WAS SO WORRIED ABOUT THE HEALTH AND WELLBEING OF ANIMALS ON THE COUNCIL.
WELL FIRST OF ALL, I WASN'T LOOKING AT YOU WEIRD.
I WAS LOOKING AT YOU LISTENING TO WHAT YOU HAD TO SAID.
AND TO GO BACK TO WHAT THE PROFESSIONAL HAS GIVEN US.
SO I WOULD BY THE ACRONYM HIS, THIS ISN'T SIMPLE IN MY OPINION.
WELL, I THINK SIX CHICKENS IS SIMPLE.
AND THAT'S YOUR OPINION TO, TO MR TO, UH, COUNCILMAN WOOD'S POINT.
THE PEOPLE THAT I HAVE TALKED TO FEEL LIKE WE DON'T NEED ANY MORE CHICKENS.
AND THOSE PEOPLE PROBABLY DON'T HAVE ANY CHICKENS CONVENIENTLY.
SO THEY'RE NOT COUNTING ON THEM TO FEED THEIR FAMILY.
THAT'S NOT WHY WE'RE HERE TO, TO LOOK AT SPECIAL INTEREST.
IT'S A SPECIAL INTEREST TO BEING INCREASING IT FOR THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT 'EM, ISN'T IT? NO.
UM, I THINK WE'RE LOOKING AT THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY.
WAYNE, DID YOU WANNA OFFER ANY, I KNOW YOU SAID, AND JOSH, YOU SAID YOU HAD A COMMENT, SO TAKE IT OUT.
JOSH, DID YOU HAVE COMMENT? WELL, HERE'S MY TAKE ON IT.
I'VE GREW UP RAISING CHICKENS.
I DON'T KNOW IF ANYBODY ELSE HERE, HAS ANYBODY ELSE EVER RAISED CHICKENS? I HAVE.
YEAH, I'VE RAISED CHICKENS GROWING UP FROM PROSPEROUS, I LIVED IN FROM A FRESH BACKYARD.
WHAT WERE YOU SAYING? I'M SORRY.
WHAT I'M SAYING IS MY BACKYARD IS FENCED IN.
AND IF I HAD 10 CHICKENS IN MY BACKYARD AND FENCED IN, I WOULD NOT BE AFRAID TO LET THEM FREE-RANGE.
AND I SAID THIS THE LAST TIME WHEN WE, WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT, UM, POSTPONING THIS, THAT WAS MY CONCERN TOO.
I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND THEY'RE HAVING SOME SORT OF REGULATION HERE FOR, FOR LESS THAN AN ACRE AND THAT THAT GOT DELETED.
BUT MY CONCERN IS, YOU KNOW, IF, IF A YARD CAN BE, IF IF A YARD, YOU KNOW, IS CONTAINED ENOUGH TO WHERE THEY CAN BE FREE RANGE, I DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH THAT.
NOW, IF I DID HAVE 10 CHICKENS FREE RANGE IN MY BACKYARD, UH, WOULD THEY LAST VERY LONG? I DON'T THINK SO.
I THINK THE CATS WOULD PROBABLY GET A HANDFUL OF THEM.
YOU KNOW, AND I DO THINK THAT, UH, YOU, I THINK THERE WOULD BE SOME, SOME, UH, SOME DETRIMENT THERE WITH, WITH ROAD TRAFFIC PROBABLY KNOCKING OUT A FEW POTENTIALLY.
BUT AGAIN, THAT I, AND I AGREE WITH WHAT, WHAT COUNSEL WAR WAS SAYING, YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD BE ON ME.
LIKE I SAID, THERE'S GOTTA BE SOME SORT OF, OF, UH, CREDENTIAL TO BE CREDENTIALS TO BE MET, UH, FOR, FOR SMALLER LOTS.
ESPECIALLY WITH, WITH LESS THAN ONE ACRE.
BUT WE ALREADY HAVE IT TO WHERE AN ACRE AND OVER YOU DON'T HAVE, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE IT ANYWAYS.
THAT, THAT'S, SORRY IF I MAY, THAT THAT IS NOT, UH, THE PROPOSAL.
BUT THE CLEANUP HERE IS THAT YOU A PERMIT'S REQUIRED IF IT'S RESIDENTIAL CORRECT.
YEAH, IF IT'S AG, YOU DON'T NEED A PERMIT.
SO THE CLEANUP ON THAT PART WAS TO JUST GET AWAY FROM ANY DIFFERENTIATION BETWEEN LOT SIZE.
IF IT'S RESIDENTIAL, YOU NEED A PERMIT.
IF IT'S NOT RESIDENTIAL, IF IT'S AG, YOU DON'T.
NOW I SAID IF, BUT IF IT'S, YOU KNOW, IF WITHIN A REASON THERE'S, THERE'S CONTAINMENT THERE TO ALLOW 'EM TO BE FREE RANGE.
I DON'T, I MEAN I DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH THAT.
BUT AGAIN, YOU KNOW, IF, BUT YOU CAN'T JUST HAVE CHICKENS FREE RANGE PERIOD ANYWAYS.
THEY'D HAVE TO HAVE SOME SORT OF SHELTER OR SOME, SOME SORT OF SOMETHING TO GET UNDER
[00:50:01]
FOR SHELTER ANYWAYS.I MEAN THEY JUST, YOU KNOW, THAT'S EVERY TIME, EVERY CHICKEN, EVERY, ALL TIMES WE EVER RACE CHICKENS, YOU KNOW, THEY, THEY, YEAH, THEY WERE FREE RANGE, BUT THEY KNEW WHEN TO GO HOME.
IT WAS CRAWL UP AND GO INTO THEIR, IN THEIR COUP.
BUT, BUT AGAIN, I SAID I I I, THAT'S MY TAKE ON IT.
I'LL LEAVE IT AT THAT, YOU KNOW? AND UH, LIKE I SAID, I I, I UNDERSTAND IT FOR SMALLER LOTS, BUT I MEAN, IF, IF WE CAN, IF IT CAN BE WHAT PROVED WITHIN REASON THAT THEY CAN BE CONTAINED BY FREE RANGE, I'M OKAY WITH THAT.
AND LIKE I SAID, I'M, I'M OKAY WITH UP TO 10 AS WELL BECAUSE I DO KNOW THAT A LOT OF FOLKS AROUND HERE, UM, YOU KNOW, GET EGGS, UH, WHETHER THEY RAISE 'EM THEMSELVES OR, OR A LOT OF FOLKS JUST WILL, WILL ACTUALLY BUY 'EM ORGANICALLY.
I MEAN THEY'RE, THEY'RE RIDICULOUSLY EXPENSIVE AT THE STORE NOW.
BUT, UH, BUT WE GOT CHICKEN EGGS BACK BEFORE IT WAS COLD BECAUSE SOMEBODY LABELED IT ORGANIC NOW, NOW THEY'RE THROUGH THE ROOF.
TO ME IT WAS JUST AN EGG AND A CHICKEN AND YOU ATE IT
SO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S TOO MUCH COMPLEXITY ADDED TO IT.
BUT THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT'S ALL I, SO, SO BEFORE I BRING THIS TO A CLOSE, I WANNA ASK MORE, MORE ONE MORE QUESTION, JUST OUTTA CURIOSITY.
HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE ASKED ABOUT HAVING MORE THAN SIX? LIKE, OR HOW MANY TIMES HAS JOHN GONE OUT AND SEEN MORE THAN SIX AND HAD TO SITE IT? THAT WAS THE ONLY ISSUE.
AND 51 PERMITS OUT OF HOWEVER MANY HOMES IN FRONT ROYAL.
IT'S NOT, SAY THEY DON'T TAKE A COUPLE CHICKENS FOR A CAR.
AND WHO'S TO SAY THAT? WHAT, I'M SORRY FOR WHAT? I, I'M NOT SAYING THAT LIKE EVERYBODY'S ABIDING BY IT, BUT WHEN WE GO OUT THERE, WE FOUND SIX CHICKEN.
SHE SAID THEY'RE TAKING IT FOR A CAR RIDE.
BUT OUTTA THOSE 51, THERE'S PROBABLY 40 THAT AREN'T APPLYING FOR A PERMIT.
AND I, WE GET COMPLAINTS OF ROOSTERS IN TOWN ALL THE TIME.
AND MY STAFF, WE SPEND TIME DRIVING AROUND LISTENING FOR ROOSTERS TRYING TO FIND THEM.
BUT IS THAT THE BEST USE OF STAFFS TIME? THAT'S, WE GET COMPLAINTS, WE HAVE TO ADDRESS IT.
I DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE YOU COULD COMPLAIN.
WE DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO FEED THEIR FAMILY.
WE HAVE AN ONLINE SYSTEM AND THEY COMPLAIN ONLINE.
UM, SO, UH, I GUESS THE QUESTION IS, DO WE NEED TO TAKE ACTION ON THIS? DO PEOPLE WANT TO TAKE ACTION ON THIS? DO WE, YOU KNOW, UM, IT SOUNDS LIKE THAT THERE'S A MIXTURE OF OPINIONS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY WANNA RAISE IT FROM SIX TO 10.
IT SOUNDS LIKE THE PART ABOUT THE, UM, UM, COMPLAINT, THE WHAT, WHAT'S REQUIRED FOR IT.
IT SOUNDS LIKE THAT'S, THAT'S ACTUALLY NOT SOMETHING TO UP FOR DISCUSSION.
'CAUSE IT'S ALREADY PART OF WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
SO THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE THAT DIFFERENT IS IF WE OPTED TO CHANGE WHAT PLANNING AND ZONING IS ALREADY DOING.
UM, SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S UH, OLD BUSINESS.
OUR, OUR PE ARE, DO WE THINK WE'RE READY TO, TO TAKE ACTION OR DO WE WANNA LEAVE IT AS IS? UH, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S COUNCIL'S, UM, WHAT'S COUNCIL'S PREROGATIVE ON THIS ONE? BECAUSE WE ALREADY TOOK IT TO A MEETING ONCE AND THEN WE, AND WE BROUGHT IT BACK.
WE'VE NOW PLANNING COMMISSIONS, LOOKED AT IT.
UM, WE'RE LOOKING AT IT A SECOND TIME WITH, WITH SOMEBODY WITH A WHOLE LOT OF EXPERIENCE.
AND, AND JUST TO CLARIFY, 'CAUSE I WASN'T SURE THE PEOPLE'S INTERPRETATION WAS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.
YOU WERE SAYING YOU THOUGHT SIX WAS WHAT MO THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID.
SIX OR NOT BECAUSE I THINK ONE PERSON HEARD SIX ONE PERSON WHAT SIZES THAT GET PERMITTED.
OR HAVE BEEN ASKED FOR PERMISSION.
UM, WHEN YOU GO DOWN TO A QUARTER ACRE AND YOU HAVE THE HOUSE THAT SITS ON THERE AND THE DRIVEWAY AND ANY OF THE, UM, AMENDMENTS, BUILDINGS, OTHER THINGS.
YOUR OPEN SPACE IS A LOT SMALLER THAN YOU PAID FOR.
AND LIKE I WAS SAYING THERE AT ONE POINT, DEPENDING UPON HOW YOU RAISE THEM, ALL OF THE INFLUENCE HAVE TO GO INTO THE GROUND.
AND IF YOU HAVE A LARGER SPACE FOR SIX CHICKENS, IT'S CORRECT.
IF YOU HAVE A SMALLER SPACE FOR CHICKEN SIX CHICKENS, THAT GETS TOUGH.
AND WHERE THAT CAN BE A A NASTY SITUATION IS IF YOU'VE GOT PLENTY OF SPACE FOR THE CHICKENS TO GO OUT AND, UH, SCRATCH AND UH, EAT BUGS AND JUST ROLL AROUND, UM, IN THE OPEN GRASS, THEY'RE HAPPIER, THEY'RE HEALTHIER, THEY CAN SPREAD THINGS OUT.
BUT IF YOU HAVE 'EM BEEN RUN ALL THE TIME, EVEN IF YOU ONLY HAD TWO OR THREE CHICKENS IN THERE GENTLY, WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN IS THAT GONNA REQUIRE BETTER MANAGEMENT? 'CAUSE THEY'RE GOING
[00:55:01]
DU THAT AREA.UM, THERE'S A NEGATIVE THERE AND IT'S SIDE FOR BEING A FREE RANGE IN A SMALLER URBAN ENVIRONMENT.
YOU'VE GOT CHICKENS THAT GO OVER OTHER PEOPLE'S PROPERTIES.
THEY
YEAH, YOU CAN TRY TO KEEP THEM IN AND DO ALL THAT, BUT YOU'RE GONNA HAVE THOSE ISSUES THAT POP UP.
BUT EVEN WITH THE EXTENDED SPACE, YOU'VE GOT THAT SAME PROBLEM HAPPENS.
THEY END GOING UP MISSING THE HOUSE.
THEY GO WHERE PEOPLE SPEND TIME IN A YARD AND THEY PUT THAT, THAT INFLUENCE CLOSER TO PEOPLE, WHICH IS POTENTIALLY TAKING SALMON AND OTHER THINGS CLOSER TO THEM.
THEY MIGHT NOT SEE IT OR NOTICE IT, WHICH PUTS YOU AT A HIGH RISK.
SO THERE IS NOT ONE PERFECT SYSTEM FOR ANY OF IT.
THAT'S WHAT I'M ALLUDING TO THAT HE SAID.
BUT NATURAL SELECTION IS FOR HUMANS AND CHICKENS.
THEY CHOOSE TO RUN IN THE ROAD OR SOMEBODY ELSE'S YARD AND GET RAN OVER A SHOT THAT'S ON THE OWNER AND THE CHICKEN.
SAME WITH ME AS A HUMAN BEING, I'M NOT ACT ASK, ASKING ANYBODY TO ARREST MY TONIGHT.
I'M ONLY ASKING DO YOU ALL WANT TO TAKE, DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE ANYTHING WE ALREADY HAVE.
SO I'M, I'M JUST, I GUESS WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT IS, DO WE WANNA LEAVE IT AS IT IS, MEANING NOT PUTTING IT IN THE CODE? I'M SORRY, I'M JUST ASKING MORE.
OR DO YOU ALL WANT TO BE MORE FORMAL WITH IT AND INPUT IT IN THE CODE? AMBER SAYS YES.
WHO ELSE WHAT? IT ALSO CHANGES THE NUMBER.
DO YOU WANNA, DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE WHAT WE HAVE? YEAH, I MEAN, I WANT TO CHANGE IT BECAUSE I WANT, I WANNA ALLOW FOR GOTCHA.
WAYNE, YOU WANNA CHANGE IT OR LEAVE IT UNDER THIS? AND I DON'T NECESSARILY MEAN THE NUMBER, I MEAN CHANGING IT THAT WE WOULD NOW PUT IT IN CODE IS WHAT I MEAN BY CHANGING IT TOO.
WELL THEN I, THERE NEEDS TO BE SOMETHING IN THE CODE.
I CHANGED MY ANSWER IF THAT'S YOUR QUESTION.
NO, I DON'T WANNA MAKE IT MORE CODIFIED.
THAT'S ENTIRELY AGAINST WHAT I BROUGHT IT UP TO COUNSEL FOR THIS LAST TIME.
ARE ARE WE GONNA, ARE WE TALKING ABOUT CODE, THE CODE OR ARE WE TALKING ABOUT I HONESTLY, THE NUMBER OF, I'M NOT REALLY SURE BECAUSE IT DOESN'T APPEAR THOUGH WE ARE THE CODE IS BOTH IT SEEMS LIKE.
I'M JUST SAYING THEY WERE SAYING, WHAT LAUREN SAID IS, IS THAT RIGHT NOW IT'S NOT IN THE CODE.
SO IF WE'RE GONNA PUT IT IN THE CODE, THEN WE'VE GOTTA BE SPECIFIC AND THERE'S THE PART THAT IS WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY.
CAN WE ASK THE GUYS, DEPENDING ON THE END HERE, WHO HAS TO REPRESENT US IN A COURT.
WHY NOT? WE HAVEN'T CHANGED GEORGE.
I MEAN, YOU HAVE TAKE A CASE, GEORGE, IF YOU HAVE TO TAKE A CASE TO COURT AND WE HAVE, UH, LOOSEY GOOSEY, WELL THIS IS WHAT WE'VE ALWAYS DONE.
GO BACK TO THE CHIEF AND THE SPEAK IN COURT.
IT'S, UH, APPLYING THE LAW TO THE FACTS OR APPLYING THE FACTS TO THE LAW.
AND, UH, IF YOU CAN ESTABLISH THE VIOLATION, IT'S A WIN IN, GIVEN THAT PART OF MY JOB IS TO PROSECUTE.
SO YOUR RECOMMENDATION IS THAT WE CO THE ZONING ORDINANCE IS CRIMINAL IN NATURE.
SO YOU'D LIKE FOR THIS TO BE CODIFIED.
THAT'S WHAT I, MY ONLY SKIN IN THIS GAME IS CLARIFYING THE, THE RESIDENTIAL, UH, AG PART OF IT.
THERE WERE INCONSISTENCIES THERE THAT WITHOUT, I MEAN ONE ACRE THAT HE NEEDS IT CODIFIED ONE ACRE OR NOT IN RESIDENTIAL.
SO YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE US TAKE ACTION ON IT, ON THAT PART, RIGHT? AS FAR AS THE REST OF IT? YEAH.
THE, THE CLEARER THE LAW THE BETTER.
RIGHT? SO THE MORE CLEARER ON RIGHT NOW.
YOU THINK WE NEED TO TAKE ACTION ON SOMETHING? BRUCE, YOU'RE WHAT IS YOUR, YOU WANNA TAKE ACTION? NOT TAKE ACTION.
I, I, I, UH, THERE'S ONLY BEEN ONE COMPLAINT, RIGHT? MM-HMM.
I DON'T THINK THERE'S A PROBLEM.
'CAUSE I WANT TO INCREASE THE, UM, CHICKENS AND HAVE THE OPTION FOR THE FREE RANGE.
OR I WANT THAT AT LEAST ADDRESSED.
WAYNE? I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT YOU SAID.
'CAUSE I THINK SO MANY ARE UP.
DID YOU, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING, WHAT DID YOU SAY? YES OR NO?
[01:00:01]
WE JUST NEED TO GET SOMETHING TO CODE TO.SO THEN WE NEED TO TAKE ACTION ON IT.
YOU WOULD LOSE IN COURT RIGHT NOW.
SO WE WOULD NEED TO TAKE ACT, WE NEED TO TAKE ACTION SOME WAY, WHATEVER.
BUT I'M GONNA TELL YOU ALL THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THIS COUNCIL HAS A CONSENSUS ON WHAT THEY WANT IT TO BE.
SO, UM, THAT'S, OR MAYBE THERE IS, I I DIDN'T FEEL LIKE THEY'RE, THEY'RE, UM, AND, AND, AND IN THE SAKE OF THE FACT THAT IT'S EIGHT O'CLOCK AND WE HAVE SPENT QUITE A BIT OF TIME ON THIS, I'M THINKING THAT, YOU KNOW, WE ARE, WE SHOULD PROBABLY, UH, BRING THIS BACK OR, OR, OR ARE YOU ALL READY TO DO IT? 'CAUSE HONESTLY IT SOUNDS LIKE HALF THE PEOPLE WANNA INCREASE THE NUMBER.
HALF THE PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO, YOU KNOW, SINCE OUR ATTORNEY JUST SAID ON A RECORDED TELEVISED, HE DIDN'T TELL US ABOUT THE NUMBERS, THAT IT'S ARBITRARY AND I'VE HAD MORE THAN ONE COMPLAINT DESPITE THAT ALL THAT'S BEING ON RECORD, ON ZONING AND DESPITE THE FACT THAT ONE PERSON CAME BEFORE US FOR A MURAL AND A SPECIAL USE PERMIT AND WE GAVE THEM AN HOUR'S WORTH OF OUR TIME TO GET THAT RIGHT.
I WOULD LIKE TO BRING IT BACK TO A WORK SESSION BECAUSE I'LL HAVE A LEGAL OPINION AND I'LL BRING BACK WHAT I THINK IT SHOULD BE IN WRITING SO EVERYONE CAN REVIEW IT AND WE CAN DEBATE THAT.
BUT I THINK IT IS ABSOLUTELY WORTH IT.
SO COUNSEL WOULD, MY VOTE IS TO BRING IT BACK TO A WORK SESSION.
THE OTHER THING IS THAT WE HAVE, THE OPTION TO DO IS TO SEND IT BACK TO PLANNING COMMISSION AND THEN BRING IT BACK TO COUNCIL.
BUT IF THEY DON'T HAVE ANY BETTER LUCK THAN WE DO, WE MIGHT JUST BE WASTING TIME ON THAT TOO.
COUNCIL SAID YES OR OUR PLANNING COMMISSION SAID YES.
I HAVE TO ASK ONE MORE QUESTION, BUT I HAVE TO, DID I HEAR YOU CORRECTLY? SO IF WE PUT IT IN THE CODE RIGHT, THEN THAT MEANS I COULD BE CHARGED IF, IF I'M JUST HAVE SIX CHICKENS AND I I HAVE SEVEN, I COULD BE CHARGED WITH A MISDEMEANOR CRIME.
IS THAT WHAT MY CONSEQUENCES? I BELIEVE THE MAJORITY OF OUR ZONING VIOLATIONS ARE CRIMINAL.
THEY ALL ARE, THEY'RE NOT, YEAH.
SO PEOPLE CAN GET A MISDEMEANOR FOR TALL GRASS OR I MEAN ANYTHING THAT WE CAN, WE ENFORCE THAT.
SO A LITTLE HESITANT TO JUMP IN, BUT
SO WHEN I WAS TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING BEING ARBITRARY, I WAS REFERRING TO THE ONE ACRE LIMITATION, RIGHT? WITHIN A RESIDENTIALLY ZONE.
I KNEW WHAT YOU WERE REFERRING TO, SO, BUT I THINK IT WAS UNDERSTOOD THAT IF WE WENT TO COURT, THIS CODE WAS PROTECTING US.
AND THAT'S NOT THE CASE RIGHT NOW 'CAUSE IT'S NOT CODIFIED AS FAR AS PROSECUTIONS.
THE CLEARER THE LAW, THE BETTER.
AND RIGHT NOW IT'S AS CLEAR AS MUD AND, AND BEING A CRIMINAL ORDINANCE, IT'S BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, THE BURDEN OF PROOF.
SO WE'LL BRING IT BACK TO A WORK SESSION.
OKAY? AND, AND WE, AND IT MAY DEPENDING ON, BECAUSE WE GOT A LOT OF THINGS COMING DOWN THE PIKE IN JANUARY, I THINK MY FRIEND SAM WORKS FOR THE TOWN OF ARLINGTON.
HE SAID THAT HIS TOWN HAS TALKED ABOUT A CHICKEN LAW LIKE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW FOR TWO AND A HALF YEARS.
WELL, WE'VE GOT 'EM BEAT, HE SAID THAT THEY'VE BEEN TALKING, THAT'S BEEN, HE SAID THEY'VE SPENT HOURS IN MEETINGS TALKING ABOUT CHICKENS OF A TOWN OF LESS THAN 800 FOLKS.
AND HE SAID IT'S, HE SETS, HE SETS IN MEETINGS JUST LIKE OUR CHIEF IS SITTING IN HERE, LIKE OUR IT GUY SITTING IN HERE LIKE OUR
AND HE, AND, AND, AND IT COMES OUT EVEN WORSE.
SO HE SAID THEY TABLED IT AND HE FINALLY BROUGHT IT BACK UP AND HE JUST SITS THERE AGAIN.
HE SAID THIS LAST MONTH, HE SAYS HE JUST WENT LIKE THIS.
AND HE TELLS HIM HE'S, HE'S LIKE THEIR VERSION OF ROBBIE IN A WAY.
AND HE TELLS 'EM FROM HIS STANDPOINT, HE GOES, WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S IN A RURAL AREA AND IT'S, IT'S MARLIN IS WHERE IT IS.
SO IT'S THE METAL MOUNTAINS IN WEST VIRGINIA.
SO WE'RE FORGOT, CHANGE THE CODE, IT'S WORTH, WE'RE DOING IT RIGHT.
BUT YEAH, HE WAS JUST LIKE, WELL JUST GET SOMEBODY TO WRITE YOUR CODE FOR YOU IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS,
AND I DO THINK SOMETIMES WE DO TALK ABOUT THINGS FOR A REALLY LONG TIME AND PART OF THE CHALLENGES IS THAT WE'RE TRYING TO MAKE EVERYBODY HAPPY.
AND UNFORTUNATELY AS THE MAYOR AT THE MAYOR'S INSTITUTE TOLD ME THAT HE HAS A HAT THAT HE WEARS AROUND TOWN THAT SAYS, I CAN'T MAKE EVERYBODY, I CAN'T MAKE EVERYBODY HAPPY.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT OUR CHALLENGE IS, IS WE WANT TO MAKE PEOPLE HAPPY.
AND, AND IT MIGHT BE A CHALLENGE AND, AND MAYBE SINCE IT'S BACK ON THE TOPIC AGAIN TONIGHT, MAYBE COUNCIL WILL GET MORE INPUT FROM CITIZENS.
MAYBE PEOPLE WILL REACH OUT TO US AND YAY OR NAYYY.
I WISH I COULD OFFER YOU MORE THAN WATER
I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU COMING
[01:05:01]
UP HERE AND GIVING US ANY INFORMATION.I I FEEL LIKE HE'S VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS, JUST CHICKENS.
BUT, UH, THE NEXT THING IS THE LIAISON COMMITTEE POLICY REVIEW.
WE WILL ACTUALLY HAVE A LIAISON MEETING IN JANUARY, WHICH MEANS MR. WALTZ ON THE FIRST JANUARY WORK SESSION.
WE BETTER TALK ABOUT WHAT WE WANT ON IT.
I MEAN I KNOW THIS WILL BE, BUT I'M JUST SAYING WE DON'T WANT THAT TO GET AWAY FROM US 'CAUSE CORRECT.
OUR FIRST, UH, OUR FIRST WORK SESSION IN JANUARY IS ACTUALLY GONNA BE ON A TUESDAY, RIGHT? BECAUSE, CORRECT.
YEAH, WE'LL BE APPROACH SECOND.
SO THE LIAISON COMMITTEE POLICY, MR. WALTZ, DO YOU WANNA SPEAK TO IT ON? SURE, SURE.
THERE ARE THREE MAJOR CHANGES THAT WE'VE DISCUSSED PROBABLY OVER THE LAST SIX, NINE MONTHS.
UH, FIRST IS UNDER MANAGER AND ADMINISTRATOR REPORT.
IT RECOMMENDS BOTH A WRITTEN AND ORAL REPORT TO BE GIVEN BY THE MANAGER AND ADMINISTRATOR AT EACH OTHER'S MEETING UNDER THE MEETING AGENDA, UH, RECOMMENDED ADDING THE WORD AGREED TO THE SECOND BULLET.
WHENEVER THE MEETINGS ARE HELD, THE HOST TOWN MAN, TOWN MANAGER, OR ACCOUNTING ADMINISTRATOR WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PREPARATION OF THE AGREED AGENDA UPON CONSULTATION WITH THE MAYOR AND BOARD CHAIRMAN RESPECTIVELY, AND PROVIDE A PERSON WHO WILL TAKE FORMAL MINUTES OF THE MEETING.
AND THEN REAL KEY HERE IS UNDER THE MEETING AGENDA, RECOMMENDED REVISING THURSDAY TO WEDNESDAY AT 1:00 PM TO THE FOURTH BULLET, WHICH WOULD ACTUALLY BE EIGHT DAYS BEFORE THE MEETING.
NO, NO, ACTUALLY IT WOULD BE BECAUSE MEETINGS ARE ALWAYS ON A THURSDAY.
SO THEY WOULD HAVE TO HAVE THE AGREED UPON MEETING BY THE WEDNESDAY SO THAT IT CAN BE PUBLISHED.
WELL REALLY, WE, WE DON'T HAVE TO PUBLISH IT ON THURSDAY.
WE WOULD PROBABLY HAVE TO PUBLISH IT ON LIKE MONDAY, BUT, BUT RIGHT.
WHEN, WHEN DO YOU ALL HAVE TO PUBLISH THE LIAISON IT WHEN IT'S DONE? I KNOW 'CAUSE IT'S NOT QUITE THURSDAY, FRIDAY OR MONDAY.
IT JUST DEPENDS BECAUSE IT'S A LITTLE BIT LONG.
SO I, I JUST WANNA SAY THAT THIS TO ME, WE, WE'VE TOYED AROUND WITH THIS, TOYED AROUND WITH THIS.
IT APPEARS AS THOUGH THAT, THAT THE BOARD AND US ARE IN AGREEMENT ON MOST OF THESE.
BUT YOU KNOW, THEIRS IS GONNA CHANGE IN JANUARY.
MY UNDERSTANDING WAS THAT THEY AGREED TO THIS BUT WANTED US TO APPROVE IT FIRST.
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT, WHY ARE WE CONSTANTLY IN A COMPETITION? SO IS EVERY, SO IS EVERYBODY GOOD WITH, DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY CONCERNS ABOUT THAT? NO.
WELL THAT WILL BE ON THE DECEMBER 11TH MEETING.
AND CAN I BE HONEST, COULD WE NOT JUST ADD THAT TO THE CONSENT AGENDA FOR, FOR THE 11TH, HUH? IT IS.
WELL IT JUST SAYS OLD BUSINESS AND CONSENT AGENDA WAS ABOVE IT.
I'M JUST SAYING LET'S JUST PUT THAT ON ONE.
IT WILL, WE DON'T HAVE TO DISCUSS IT.
WE BEAT THAT HORSE TO DEATH TOO.
THEY DON'T HAVE TO VOTE ON IT.
UH, FOUR A WAS ACTUALLY REMOVED BY THE, BY THE REQUEST OF THE APPLICANT ON FRIDAY, I THINK IT WAS.
SO THEY HAVE PULLED THAT REQUEST FOR WAIVER OF CURBING GUTTER AND SIDEWALK.
BUT THAT CAME IN LATE ON FRIDAY.
IS THE, IS THE INTENT THEY'RE GONNA BRING IT BACK LATER OR THEY'RE JUST PULLING IT? PULLING IT.
THEY'RE PULLING IT COMPLETELY.
SO THEY'RE PUTTING IN CURB AND GUTTER.
MY UNDERSTANDING YOU MAY HAVE NO INTEREST ANYMORE.
FOUR B REQUEST AN ORDINANCE TEXT AMENDMENT BY MAGDALENE CAPITAL LLP PERTAINING TO MINIMUM ACREAGE REQUIREMENT FOR PLANNED NEIGHBORHOOD DEVELOPMENT DISTRICT, THE P AND D FROM 20 AND 50 ACRE MINIMUM TO TWO ACRE MINIMUM.
AND LAUREN IS GONNA SPEAK TO THAT FOR US.
UM, OKAY, SO THIS TEXT AMENDMENT UM, IS A REQUEST TO GO FROM THE 20 TO 50, SORRY, THE 20 ACRE MINIMUM FOR P AND D ZONING TO A TWO ACRE MINIMUM.
THIS ITEM WENT TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION, STAFF RECOMMENDED A FIVE ACRE MINIMUM IF WE DO THE CHANGE, UM, PLANNING COMMISSION FORWARDED THAT RECOMMENDATION TO COUNCIL.
UM, AND SO WHAT THIS WOULD DO IS CURRENTLY WE HAD 16 PROPERTIES IN TOWN THAT WERE LARGE ENOUGH FOR A P AND D ZONE.
THIS WOULD OPEN IT UP TO APPROXIMATELY, UM, 72 PARCELS TOTAL THAT ARE FIVE ACRES OR
[01:10:01]
MORE CURRENTLY UNDEVELOPED, 37 OF WHICH ARE CURRENTLY, UM, RESIDENTIAL, SOME TYPE OF RESIDENTIAL THERE.I WILL SAY THE MAJORITY OF THESE, I DO SEE SOME ENVIRONMENTAL CONSTRAINTS.
SO I SEE FLOODWAY, I SEE STEEP SLOPES.
UM, SO JUST BECAUSE, SO IF COUNCIL WERE TO CHANGE IT TO THE FIVE ACRE MINIMUM, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT EACH OF THOSE SITES WOULD BE CONDUCIVE OR THAT THEY WOULD, IT WOULD FOLLOW THE COMP PLAN TO ALLOW THEM TO BE REZONED.
UM, BUT I CAN TAKE ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS THAT YOU HAVE ABOUT THIS.
I WAS CURIOUS WHEN I READ IT ABOUT WERE YOU AWARE OF, IT'S HARD FOR ME TO ENVISION FIVE ACRES AS A PLAN NEIGHBORHOOD DEVELOPMENT.
IT JUST SEEMS LIKE THAT'S JUST A SMALL ACREAGE TO ME.
SO I WAS HAVE YOU RUN ACROSS, IN ANY OF OUR NEIGHBORING COMMUNITIES, ANY PLANNED NEIGHBORHOOD DEVELOPMENTS THAT ARE LIKE FIVE ACRES? SO I KNOW LIKE IN LEESBURG, THEIR MINIMUM WHERE THEIR P AND D DISTRICT IS FIVE ACRES WITH THE P AND D DISTRICT, ONE OF THE CRITERIA IS THAT IT DOES ALLOW FOR CLUSTERING, WHICH THEN ALLOWS YOU TO PRESERVE ADDITIONAL OPEN SPACE.
UM, THAT'S WHERE, HERE'S THE THING WITH THE FIVE ACRES, YOU WOULD HAVE TO HAVE YOUR ENGINEERING TEAM AND YOUR SURVEYING TEAM MAKE SURE THAT THIS ACTUALLY WORKS FOR THAT SITE.
YOU CAN POTENTIALLY CLUSTER THE DEVELOPMENT, YOU CAN LEAVE SOME OF IT OPEN.
UM, THE HIGHER DENSITY YOU CREATE THAT PARCEL.
AND THE MORE OPEN SPACE YOU LEAVE, THE POTENTIAL IS IF YOU KEEP IT VERY DENSE, YOU'RE DISTURBING MINIMAL LAND, YOU'RE KEEPING THE UTILITIES TO A MINIMUM OR COST EFFECTIVE.
THAT'S WHAT THIS WOULD BE CONDUCIVE TO.
YEAH, I THOUGHT
IS THAT WHERE I SAW IN A, IT'S LIKE SIX, SIX SITES IN A HALF ACRE OR A QUARTER ACRE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS QUOTED IN IN THE P AND D REGULATIONS.
BUT ANYWAY, IT SEEMED VERY, SEEMED LIKE TOWN HOME DUPLEX.
IT ALLOWS FOR A MIXTURE OF RESIDENTIAL TYPES.
SO IT ALLOWS FOR THEM TO COME IN AND SAY, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GONNA HAVE A COMMUNITY WHERE YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TOWN HOMES, YOU CAN HAVE DUPLEXES, YOU CAN HAVE SINGLE FAMILY SECTIONS, YOU CAN KIND OF INTEGRATE SOME OF THESE.
AND IT ALSO ALLOWS A MIXTURE TO ALLOW LIKE COMMERCIAL USES AS WELL.
UM, WHICH, AND THIS IS THE ONLY BASICALLY MIXED USE ZONE THAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE AND THE COMP PLAN, THE FUTURE, LARGE CHUNK OF THE FUTURE LAND USE, UM, SHOWS MIXED USE ZONES, WHICH WE'RE WORKING ON STILL CREATING THOSE ZONES.
BUT THIS KIND OF GIVES AN AVENUE IN THE MEANTIME.
UM, THERE'S SOME MISCONCEPTIONS.
I'VE BEEN GETTING FEEDBACK FROM THE COMMUNITY ON, ON THIS WHO REQUESTED THAT IT BE CHANGED TO A TWO ACRE MINIMUM BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE THE DEVELOPER HAS A 12 ACRE LOT TO BE DEVELOPED.
SO I'M JUST WONDERING WHY LIKE 10 ACRES OR SOMETHING MORE LOGICAL AND AN EVEN NUMBER WASN'T DISCUSSED WHEN I WAS HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH THE APPLICANT.
WE, THERE ARE TWO OUT THERE AND SO THE APPLICANT WAS WHO REQUESTED TWO ACRES.
OTHER QUESTIONS FOR LAUREN? OH, AND I, I HAD A QUESTION ABOUT, I SAW THE UTILITY THAT'S UNDERGROUND AND UM, UTILITIES IS NOT MY THING, SO FORGIVE ME, BUT WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IN TOWN, UM, I WOULD PRESUME THERE'S A LOT OF UTILITIES THAT ARE NOT UNDERGROUND, RIGHT? SO IF THEY'RE TYING INTO THE, THEY HAVE TO TIE INTO THE EXISTING SYSTEM, RIGHT? DO THEY HAVE TO, TO OUR SUBDIVISION ORDINANCE, AND THIS IS WHAT WE EVALUATE DURING SITE PLAN WOULD REQUIRE THAT THEY WOULD PUT IN UNDERGROUND UTILITIES.
UM, SO HOW THEY TIE INTO THAT, THEY WOULD, THEIR ENGINEER WOULD PUT THAT ON THE PLANS.
OUR PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT AND OUR ENERGY SERVICES DEPARTMENT WOULD REVIEW THAT AND WE'RE POSITIONED TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT WITH OKAY.
WITH THE OLDER THEY, THEY CURRENTLY DO THOSE REVIEWS AND IF IT'S, IF IT'S SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO GO TO THE ENGINEER IN THE PAST WE'VE, WE'VE SENT IT OUT TO OVER OUR, UM, ENGINEERING, SOMETIMES
SO MELISSA, WE HAVE OVERHEAD LINES THAT GO DOWN HAPPY CREEK, THAT FRONT THIS PROPERTY, BUT EVERYTHING FROM THAT POINT ON INTO THAT DEVELOPMENT WOULD BE UNDERGROUND PER A SPECS.
DOES THIS OPEN UP, UP THE DOOR FOR IT? IT SEEMS LIKE, UH, THE SMALLER PARCELS THAT CREATES MORE URBANIZATION.
UH, WHICH CONCERNS ME A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE THAT SORT OF GOES COUNTER TO THE SMALL TOWN CHARM EFFECT.
UH, MOSTLY WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PLANNED NEIGHBORHOOD DEVELOPMENT, YOU'RE LOOKING AT LARGER PARCELS, UH, METROPLEXES, THAT KIND OF THING.
[01:15:01]
AND UH, BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE SPACE, THEY HAD THE GREEN SPACE.I MEAN THERE WOULD, YOU KNOW, THERE WOULDN'T BE A WHOLE LOT OF GREEN SPACE IN SAY EVEN, UH, IN A FIVE ACRE.
SO WE JUST REQUIRE A 25% OF THE LAND BE LEFT IN OPEN SPACE RIGHT NOW.
SO IT'S WHATEVER THEIR PROPERTY.
SO IF THEY HAVE A FIVE ACRE PROPERTY, THEN THEY WOULD NEED TO KEEP AN ACRE OF IT OPEN.
SO LIKE ONLY FOUR ACRES WOULD BE THE REST WOULD BE, AND THAT'S WHAT I WAS SAYING, I DON'T THINK EVERY SINGLE SITE IN TOWN WORKS.
IF IT'S A FIVE ACRE SITE, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT'S ON EQUIPMENT.
AND WE'LL HAVE 75 UNDEVELOPED PARCELS THAT WOULD BE ABLE TO QUALIFY FOR THIS DEPENDING ON THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSTRAINTS UP FROM 16 PREVIOUSLY.
BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO LOOK AT WHETHER OR NOT THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN RECOMMENDS THAT TYPE OF REZONING.
SO WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE REZONINGS, IF THE COMP PLAN DOES NOT CALL FOR THIS TO BE SUITABLE, THAT'S LIKE ONE OF YOUR FIRST CRITERIA.
YOUR JUDGMENT BASED ON THIS IS THIS IN LINE WITH THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AND IT APPEARS AS THOUGH THAT'S WHAT PLANNING COMMISSION, UM, UM, THAT'S BASICALLY WHAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT CAME OUT OF THAT IS THAT, UM, THEY SAID THIS IS CONSISTENT WITH THE GOALS AND INTENT OF THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.
UM, AND THAT IT COULD SUPPORT A WIDER VARIETY OF HOUSING AND POTENTIALLY PROMOTE AFFORDABLE HOUSING PROJECTS.
THE, THE PART, THE ONE THING THAT I SAW AS POSITIVE ABOUT THIS IS, IS THAT IS THE VARIETY OF HOUSE.
LIKE YOU COULD HAVE SOME TOWN HOMES OR DUPLEX OR, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER YOU WANNA WANNA CALL IT.
'CAUSE I, I DO FEEL LIKE THAT'S PROBABLY, WELL IT'S NOT PROBABLY IT'S WITH THE COMP, I MEAN THAT'S WHAT WE'RE LACKING, RIGHT? WE'RE LACKING VARIETY, YOU KNOW, VARIETY OF HOUSING.
NOT, NOT EVERYBODY CAN AFFORD A $500,000 HOME, BUT MAYBE THEY COULD START IN THAT AND, OR, OR MAYBE THEY DON'T NEED ANYTHING BIGGER THAN THAT, YOU KNOW.
SO, UH, ANYBODY ELSE WITH ANY QUESTIONS FOR UH, FOR LAUREN? I HAD ONE OTHER QUESTION FOR MY CITIZEN.
I DIDN'T WATCH THE PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING AND MAYBE IF LAUREN CAN'T ANSWER IT, GLEN WAS PERHAPS STILL ON THERE THEN.
I'M NOT SURE THE TIMELINE, BUT IT WAS SAID BY SOMEONE AT THE PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING THAT THIS WOULD ALLOW FOR LOCAL DEVELOPERS TO BE ABLE TO DEVELOP MORE VERSUS LARGE DEVELOPERS.
BUT THERE'S NOTHING SAYING LARGE DEVELOPERS CAN'T COME IN AND BUY ALL OF THESE PARCELS THAT THEY WANT AND MAKE THEM A P AND D AT TWO ACRES.
SO DO YOU KNOW IF THAT WAS A PLANNING COMMISSION MEMBER THAT SAID THAT? OR IF IT WAS A SPEAKER? I BELIEVE IT WAS A SPEAKER.
YEAH, I WAS GONNA SAY I'VE READ THEM, BUT I THINK I READ IT IN, I THINK I READ IT IN WITH THE ARTICLE
BUT, UM, ANY OTHER NATIONAL BUILDERS AREN'T GONNA BE INTERESTED IN THOSE SMALL LOTS.
THEY'RE GONNA GO FOR THE 20 TO 50 ACRE LOTS.
IT DOES SEEM LIKE A RATHER, YOU KNOW, AT FIRST BLUSH, I GOTTA TELL YOU, LIKE THE FIRST TIME I SAW READ ABOUT IT, IT, I MEAN OBVIOUSLY BEFORE THIS, IT'S, IT'S ALREADY BEEN BROUGHT UP BEFORE, UM, WAS THAT JUST SEEMED LIKE, WOW, 50 ACRES, TWO ACRES, LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? UM, BUT, BUT WE TALKED ABOUT THIS WHEN LEON CREER WAS GONNA COME TOO.
I MEAN THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING AT FIRST.
BUT THEN, YOU KNOW, YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS AND YOU CAN SEE THE POSITIVES OF IT.
UM, BUT I WILL TELL YOU, YOU JUST SAID SOMETHING THAT MADE ME CRINGE.
DID YOU SAY LEESBURG? YEAH, I KNOW SHE SAID THAT AND I WENT, NOPE, NO, THANK YOU.
DON'T WANNA BE LOUDOUN COUNTY BECAUSE I THINK THEY WENT CRAZY.
BUT ONE OF THE REALLY COOL THINGS ABOUT IT IN LEESBURG AND LIKE WE HAVE ISSUES WITH 6 0 6 CURRENTLY AND GETTING AN EAST WEST CONNECTOR OUT THERE, THIS TYPE OF DEVELOPMENT ALLOWS FOR OPPORTUNITY TO RELIEVE SOME OF THE TRAFFIC THAT'S HEADING TO RIVERTON COMMONS OR THE SOUTH END OF TOWN BECAUSE IT OFFERS DIVERSE LIFESTYLE.
SO THESE ARE BASICALLY LIKE SUSTAINABLE NEIGHBORHOODS.
UM, AND YEAH, WE TALK ABOUT DEVELOPING LEACH RUN PARKWAY ALL THE TIME.
AND LIKE EVEN PEOPLE IN A TWO INCOME HOUSEHOLD RIGHT NOW, 7% INTEREST RATES AREN'T BUYING FIVE AND $600,000 HOMES, EVEN WITH ONE OF THE LOWEST REAL ESTATE TAXES IN THE ENTIRE STATE.
SO IF THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO OFFER DIVERSE, I'M NOT GONNA CALL IT AFFORDABLE HOUSING BECAUSE IT'S GOT A NEGATIVE CONNOTATION AS YOU'VE SAID, AS I KNOW, BUT AFFORDABLE HOUSING ISN'T LIKE WORKFORCE HOUSING AND ALL THE OTHER SCAMS THAT WERE SHOVED DOWN OUR THROAT FOR 10 YEARS.
AFFORDABLE HOUSING IS HOUSING THAT PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE AND WORK HERE AND WANNA RAISE THEIR FAMILY HERE CAN AFFORD, DO YOU KNOW THE PICTURES THAT WERE INCLUDED, THEY, THAT'S THE NEXT AFFORDABLE, THE PICTURES NEXT ITEM.
YOU KNOW, THE QUESTION IS, IS AFFORDABLE OR, YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO GUARANTEES WHAT YOUR BUILDER IS GOING TO WANT TO DO.
I MEAN, THEY, THEY COULD, YOU, YOU COULD BE GETTING HOUSES LIKE THAT ARE OUT ON,
[01:20:01]
UH, IN BODEN FOR, FOR EXAMPLE.SO, UM, YOU KNOW, SO WE MAY BE LOOKING AT $450,000 HOMES.
UH, SO, OR MORE, IT'S NOT GUARANTEED THAT IT'S AFFORDABLE.
I MEAN WHAT I WOULD CALL AFFORDABLE.
BUT SOME PEOPLE WOULD SAY FOUR 50 IS AFFORDABLE.
THE MARKET WILL DETERMINE NOT MY SALARY.
THE MARKET WILL DETERMINE WHAT IT'LL BE.
JUST WANTED TO MAKE THAT CLEAR.
SO IS COUNSEL READY TO TAKE THIS TO A VOTE? LET ME JUST ADD, IT'S ALMOST A CART BETWEEN THE HORSE BECAUSE WE'RE SETTING HERE DISCUSSING AND TRYING TO ENVISION AND, AND WONDER, WELL, YOU KNOW, IS THERE GONNA BE AFFORDABLE HOUSING? IS IT, AND THEIR PRESENTATION, WHICH I BELIEVE IS NEXT ON THERE, MAY BE ENLIGHTENING BECAUSE I FOUND I GOT A LOT MORE OUT OF THE PRESENTATION AND MY UNDERSTANDING.
'CAUSE LIKE MANY OF YOU, I LOOKED AT THAT SMALL TRACK OF LAND.
I'M TRYING TO ENVISION, UH, RETAIL, UH, RENTALS, UH, UH, CONDOS, SINGLE FAMILY HOUSES, TOWNHOUSES, AND I'M GOING LIKE ALL ON 10 ACRES OR 11 OR WHATEVER IT IS.
TWO, WELL, IT WOULDN'T BE ON TWO, BUT, UM, IT'S FOR 5, 5, 5, 5, 5.
IT'S FIVE RECOMMENDATION TO MOVE IT UP TO FIVE.
BUT, UM, YOU KNOW, COUNCIL CERTAINLY HAS THE ABILITY TO, YOU KNOW, INCREASE THAT TO 10 IF YOU'LL, BUT I FOUND IT ENLIGHTENING TO WATCH THE PRESENTATION THEN I COULD GO BACK AND, AND VISUALLY SEE WHAT THE APPLICANT IS ASKING US TO DO.
SO I, I DON'T KNOW WE, WHAT YOU CAN DO.
UH, SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS MAYBE WE SHOULD GO TO ITEM FOUR C AND THEN COME BACK TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT WE WANNA GO WITH FOUR B.
IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE IT'S NOT EDGED AND STONE AND I THINK IT WOULD GIVE US ALL THE ABILITY TO SEE, UM, OKAY.
THAT, THAT'S REALLY UP TO YOU GUYS.
SO WE WILL, UM, 'CAUSE LAUREN'S WITH FOUR C ANYWAY SO SHE CAN STICK AROUND UP HERE.
OH, THIS IS WHY THESE THINGS ARE SO, ALL RIGHT.
LAUREN, DO YOU WANNA DO THE NEXT ONE? SO REQUEST TO REONE THREE 11 LEACH STREET FROM RS ROOM RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT AND ADJOINING PROPERTIES FROM R ONE, RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT B AND D AND NEIGHBORHOOD.
ALRIGHT, SO THIS IS TOTAL, UH, I THINK IT'S FOUR OR FIVE LOTS.
UM, AND WHAT THEY HAVE SUBMITTED TO STAFF, OUR TWO POTENTIAL CONCEPTS, UM, IF THE REZONING WERE TO GO THROUGH, SO OPTION ONE HAS HIGHER DENSITY, UM, THAN OPTION TWO.
UM, AND THEN THERE'S A COMMERCIAL COMPONENT RIGHT ALONG HAPPY CREEK ROAD.
UM, THE BUYRIGHT OPTION IS JUST THAT, IT, IT WOULD BE 21 SINGLE FAMILY HOMES TO CUL-DE-SACS.
UM, AND THEN THAT WOULD JUST GO TO SITE PLAN.
UH, THAT WOULD BE THEIR NEXT STEP TO, THEY WOULD SUBMIT THEIR SITE PLAN.
UM, BUT IF THE TAX AMENDMENT GOES THROUGH, THEN THE REZONING CAN HAPPEN.
REZONING GOES THROUGH, UM, THEY'D BE ABLE TO SUBMIT ONE OF THOSE OPTIONS TO US.
SO THAT'S WHERE THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE COMMENT WAS.
ALL RIGHT GUYS, QUESTIONS ABOUT FOUR C FOR LAUREN OR ANYBODY.
AND THE APPLICANTS ARE HERE AND THEY MAY BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU MORE IN DEPTH, UH, REVIEW EACH OF THE OPTIONS.
FROM WHAT I CAN SEE, THE MAJORITY OF THE PROPERTIES OUT THERE ARE ALL SINGLE FAMILY.
AND THAT PARTICULAR PROPERTY, UH, OFF LEACH STREET HAS A TREMENDOUS, THAT'S A BIG DROP.
I THINK I, THERE'S A VERY STEEP SLOPE.
I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD WENT AS OF NOW, THE SLOPES ARE NOT IN CONFORMANCE WITH CHAPTER 1 48.
SO OUR SUBDIVISION ORDINANCE LIMITS DEVELOPMENT ON SLOPES STEEPER THAN I THINK 15%.
UM, AND RIGHT NOW THAT SLOPE IS HIGHER THAN 15%, BUT UM, DURING SITE PLAN THEY WOULD SHOW, UM, HOW THEY'RE GOING TO WORK WITH IT.
UH, I BELIEVE THEY'RE INTERESTED IN TARING IT.
SO, UM, IF THE ENGINEERING CAN WORK, THEN IT CAN BE IN COMPLIANCE WITH RELEVANCE, BUT ALL OF THAT IS
I'M JUST WONDERING HOW MUCH LAND WOULD BE LEFT AFTER THE GREEN SPACE.
[01:25:01]
YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY WHO'S GONNA MAINTAIN IT, RIGHT? SO THEY WOULD SET UP AN HOA THAT WOULD MEAN TOO A, SO THEY WOULD, UM, BUILD THE ROADS.WE WOULD REQUIRE THAT THEY BUILD THE ROADS TO TOWN STANDARDS.
UM, AND THEN AN HOA WOULD BE TO MAINTAIN VEHICLE, BUT THE ROAD WOULD NOT BE INCORPORATED INTO THE STREET SYSTEM.
WE COULD ASK FOR PROJECT, BUT WE TYPICALLY REQUIRE THAT IT'S BUILT TO TOWN STANDARDS.
SO IT CAN BE BROUGHT INTO OUR SYSTEM AND THEN MAINTAIN.
BUT I THOUGHT THE HOA WAS GONNA DO THE SNOW REMOVAL AND RELINING THE ROADS.
AND MAYBE I'M INCORRECT IN THAT IF THE APPLICANT SETS IT UP THAT WAY.
BUT THAT'S, WE WOULD FIGURE THAT OUT.
CAN WE JUST ASK THEM IF THEY WANT THE ROAD TO BE PRIVATE OR NOT? IT'S A PRIVATE ROAD.
WELL, CAN WE JUST ASK IF THEY INTENDED FOR IT TO BE A PRIVATE ROAD OR NOT? I DON'T KNOW.
WELL, WE CAN'T DELIVER, WE CAN'T LIKE PICK UP TRASH ON
RIGHT? THERE'D BE NO MAIL DELIVERY.
THERE'D BE NO TOWN SERVICES IF IT'S A PRIVATE ROAD.
THE BENEFIT OF ALL, WE'D WANT THOSE BUILT ON OUR
THAT'S WHY I DIDN'T KNOW IF THERE WAS A REASON.
LIKE IF THEY WANTED IT TO BE PRIVATE, LIKE THERE'S A PRIVATE DEVELOPMENT UP OFF OF SOUTH STREET SOMEWHERE OF TOWNHOUSES LIKE THE UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE PUT A BOX AT THE END OF THE ROAD, TRASH TRUCK DOESN'T GO UP THERE.
THE MAIL PEOPLE DON'T GO UP THERE, SOMETHING ELSE DOESN'T GO UP THERE.
WE LEARNED ABOUT IN A MEETING.
SO PEOPLE BUY THESE HOUSES IN THE TOWN AND THEN THEY DON'T GET TOWN SERVICES AND, BUT THOSE, THOSE INSTANCES, COUNSEL HAD TO GRANT A SPECIAL EXCEPTION FOR THAT, RIGHT? YEAH.
SO THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT.
WELL, I'M NOT REALLY A FAN OF THAT.
NOT THAT I HAVE A VOTE UNLESS OF THE TIE, BUT ONLY BECAUSE WE'VE DONE IT NOW.
AND, AND JUST AS I SUSPECTED WHEN WE DID IT THAT THE PEOPLE BUY THESE PLACES DON'T MATTER AND THEN THEY GET FRUSTRATED, WELL, WHY DON'T WE GET THIS? WHY DON'T WE GET THAT? AND THEY, YOU KNOW, AND I I WAS TOLD THAT THEY WOULD KNOW WHEN THEY BOUGHT IT THAT IT WAS THAT.
AND THEN THERE ARE AREAS IN TOWN LIKE OFF OF, UM, LOCUS, LUCAS, DALE, UH, THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT LIVE UP THERE THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND, I MEAN, THEY DO, BUT DON'T APPRECIATE THE FACT THAT THEY DON'T GET SNOW REMOVAL.
THEY PAY TOWN TAXES LIKE ALL THE REST OF US, BUT THEY DON'T GET THOSE OTHER THINGS.
SO I-I-I-I-I DON'T FEEL LIKE, I DON'T FEEL LIKE ANYBODY THAT EVER ENDS UP IN THAT SITUATION SEEMS TO BE HAPPY UNLESS ANYBODY ELSE HAS HAD THAT COME ACROSS.
WELL, I MEAN, YEAH, LIKE YOU GET IT WHEN I DON'T GET IT.
I DON'T, I DON'T GET IT PAST A CERTAIN POINT.
YEAH KNOW IF I LIVE IN TOWN IN PIT TOWN TEXAS, I WANT ALL THE TOWNS TO STOP.
I KNOW I WOULD TAKE IT TOO, BUT YOU KNOW, THEY CAN BRING DALE, THEY CAN BRING THEIR TRASH DOWN TO THE BOTTOM OF DALE.
BUT FROM WHAT I'VE, YEAH, WE RAN INTO IT.
PEOPLE SAID BY THE TIME THEY BRING IT DOWN, THEY MIGHT AS WELL GO IN AND TAKE IT TO THE, YOU KNOW, SO TO MY FIRST YEAR ON THE COUNCIL, WE RAN INTO SOMEBODY THERE WAS A DEAD DEER IN THE ROAD.
AND NOBODY FROM THE TOWN WOULD COME PICK IT UP BECAUSE IT'S NOT ON YOUR ROAD.
ALL RIGHT, SO BACK TO THIS CONVERSATION.
UM, DO WE WANT, ARE, ARE WE READY TO, OR IS COUNCIL READY TO TAKE ACTION ON THAT? IS, DO WE WANNA KEEP DISCUSSING IT OR ARE WE GONNA MOVE THAT JOKE? I JUST WANNA LET YOU KNOW THAT THE FIRST OPPORTUNITY FOR A PUBLIC HEARING FOR, FOR BOTH OF THOSE ITEMS WOULD BE JANUARY 22ND, 22ND.
SO, SO, BECAUSE WE SAID WE WERE GONNA GO TO C BEFORE WE WENT BACK TO B, UM, LET'S GO, WHAT DO YOU, WHAT? ARE YOU ALL READY TO TAKE THIS TO A PUBLIC HEARING? I JUST HAVE ONE QUESTION FOR B.
DO YOU KNOW OF ANY OTHER APPLICANTS IN THE WORKS TO UTILIZE THIS IF WE CHANGE THIS CODE? 'CAUSE I MEAN, PEOPLE SAY NATIONAL DEVELOPERS AREN'T INTERESTED, BUT THAT'S WHY THEY'RE INTERESTED IN EVERY OTHER PLACE.
WE'RE CHEAPER HERE THAN LEESBURG AND EVERYWHERE ELSE.
AND I DON'T WANNA BE PREYED ON BY NATIONAL, NATIONAL DEVELOPERS WHO COME IN AND BUY THESE UP.
THERE ARE NO OTHER APPLICATIONS THAT I'M AWARE.
BUT OF COURSE THEY'VE, I MEAN, THEY DON'T KNOW THAT PART.
WAS SAY, SO IF THEY GO AND THEY LOOK AT OUR COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AND THE PARCEL THAT THEY'RE INTERESTED IN IS SOME IS SO AS A FUTURE LAND USE POTENTIALLY MIXED USE.
BUT I'M SAYING THOUGH THAT NOT IT, IT DOESN'T, DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE DON'T HAVE OTHER APPLICATIONS.
'CAUSE NOBODY'S INTERESTED BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T MADE, MADE THIS AVAILABLE TO THEM IS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY.
COUNSEL, OR YOU ALL, DO YOU ALL WANT A HOLD OF PUBLIC HEARING IN JANUARY? DO YOU THINK IT'S READY TO GO TO THAT? ARE YOU READY FOR FEBRUARY? NO.
I, I DON'T, I I JUST DON'T THINK THIS FITS INTO A P AND D CONCEPT.
I MEAN, I'M, YOU KNOW, THAT'S JUST ME.
[01:30:01]
YOU WOULD, YOU WOULDN'T VOTING ON IT TONIGHT? I HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH THEM DOING THEIR BY WRITING.YOU KNOW, YOU CAN DO HIS 22 HOMES OR WHATEVER THE NUMBER IS.
UM, THE QUESTION IS ARE WE, DO WE WANT TO, UM, HAVE THE PUBLIC HEARING ON IT IF, OR DO WE HAVE ENOUGH QUESTION, DO WE HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION? DO YOU ALL HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION TO BE ABLE TO HOLD THE PUBLIC HEARING? AND OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, UNFORTUNATELY NOW THAT WE CAN ONLY GET ONE READING OF THINGS, THERE'S A, YOU KNOW, WE CAN ALWAYS DO WE CAN WE WANT TO GO THIS, EXCUSE ME MAYOR, GO AHEAD.
BUT DO WE WANT TO GO THIS ROUTE ON, ON THIS WITHOUT TAKING CARE OF B FIRST? OH, I WAS KIND OF ASKING IT BLANKETLY, IF YOU ALL CART THE HORSE HAS TO STAY IN FRONT OF THE CART.
SO I GUESS, ALRIGHT B ARE YOU, DO Y'ALL WANNA DO A, DO YOU WANT TO DO A PUBLIC HEARING ON B? YEAH, SURE.
C DO YOU WANNA DO A PUBLIC HEARING IN JANUARY? YEAH.
BUT I WOULD EXPECT A LARGE TURNOUT TO DO BOTH IN ONE NIGHT.
I WOULD, WHICH WE'VE DONE FOUR OR FIVE IN ONE NIGHT BEFORE.
FOR FOR B THAT'S WHAT I WAS WELL THE ONLY PROBLEM, AND THAT'S FINE WITH ME.
THE ONLY PROBLEM IS IF WE STRETCH IT OUT, THEN WE WOULDN'T HAVE A PUBLIC HEARING UNTIL WE DO ONE PUBLIC HEARING IN JANUARY AND ONE PUBLIC HEARING IN FEBRUARY.
IS THAT WHAT YOU
I MEAN, IT WOULDN'T BE THE FIRST TIME A PUBLIC HEARING GOT CONTINUED LEFT OPEN.
WELL WE'VE ALREADY, I'VE ALREADY SEEN NEGATIVE FEEDBACK.
I GUESS PROBABLY YOU ALL HAVE TWO, AT LEAST ONE EMAIL.
SO, BUT UH, I'M, I'M NOT AS, I I MEAN I, BECAUSE JUST BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THE VISION DOESN'T MEAN THE BUILDERS DON'T, I MEAN, I'M OKAY WITH TAKING IT DOWN TO FIVE.
I FEEL LIKE IF THEY CAN, YOU KNOW, BRING FORWARD A GOOD PROPOSAL, THAT'S FINE.
I AM CONCERNED ABOUT LOOKING AT THE PICTURES.
UM, BECAUSE IT'S GONNA GO BACK TO AGAIN THE QUESTION OF AFFORDABILITY AND UM, YOU KNOW, AND UH, IF, IF, IF SOME OF THESE BEAUTIFUL HOMES COULD BE TURNED INTO, UH, TWO OR MORE RESIDENCES IN ONE, I THINK THAT'D BE A BEAUTIFUL ADDITION IF UH, IF THEY'RE AMENABLE TO IT.
BUT ANYWAY, SO WELL THAT'S, WELL LEAST THEY TALKED TO US, UM, AND IT WAS KIND OF LEFT UP IN THE AIR AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT SOLIDIFIED THEIR OPINION.
THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT A SMALL BOUTIQUE HOTEL THERE AND I, I DON'T KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE TO DO THEIR MARKETING.
THEY HAVE MORE LAND LEFT TO DO SOMETHING ELSE WITH.
WELL, BUT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT POSSIBLY CONDOMINIUMS, WHICH WE HAVE NONE.
AND HOMEOWNER ASSOCIATION A WALKABLE NEIGHBORHOOD.
I MEAN THEY'RE SETTING BACK HERE IF YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE.
BUT YEAH, WE'VE DISCUSSED THIS CONCEPT FOR TWO YEARS.
I MEAN I, THE PLAN COMMISSION LIKED IT BECAUSE WE'RE, WE'RE MAXIMIZING THE USE OF THE LAND AND YOU WAKE, YOU MAKE A WALKABLE COMMUNITY IF YOU HAVE THE STORES THERE TO SERVICE YOU, YOU DON'T HAVE TO EVEN GET IN A CAR.
YEAH, TAKE, THAT'S WHAT I WAS SAYING.
IT TAKES HEAT OFF 6 0 6 AND SOME OF THE ISSUE THERE.
IF THERE WERE MORE OPTIONS ON THE SOUTH END OF TOWN OR EVEN WHAT'S THAT EAST, THEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO ALL THE WAY NORTH.
I GUESS THE QUESTION IS, DO WE WANT TO HAVE A MARATHON MEETING ON IN JANUARY FOR BOTH PUBLIC HEARINGS FOR THIS? WHERE WOULD WE LIKE TO, UM, TO UH, STOP THE BLEED FOR JUST ONE PUBLIC HEARING IN JANUARY AND ONE PUBLIC HEARING IN FEBRUARY? I MEAN, I WILL SAY THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES BEFORE WHERE WE'VE SAID, OH WOW, IT'S GONNA BE A BUNCH OF PEOPLE ARE GONNA SHOW UP AND THEN THEY DON'T WE FIVE OR SEVEN ONE NIGHT? YEAH.
OH, ONE NIGHT A LOT OF PEOPLE SHOW UP AT THE PLANNING COMMISSION.
DID YOU GET A LOT OF INPUT? TWO.
WELL ONE, ONE LIVES DIRECTLY ACROSS AND THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THE TRAFFIC AND OUR COMMENT IS, YEAH, I'M CONCERNED ABOUT TRAFFIC TOO.
NOW HAPPY CREEK IS ONLY GONNA GROW, ESPECIALLY WITHOUT EAST WEST QUARTER.
IT'S GONNA GROW ON LAKE TURN, PARKWAYS DEVELOPED WHETHER THEY WANT IT TO OR NOT, THEY'RE COMING DOWN HAPPY.
AND, AND THE ANSWER MIGHT BE, WELL YOU CAN'T STOP PROGRESS.
BUT IF YOU NEED SIGNALIZATION THERE TO GET IN AND OUT AND NOT CREATE, YOU KNOW, A FROG OR ROUTINE WHERE YOU'RE TRYING TO GET ACROSS TO GO IN TOWN OR THAT WAY, I FEEL LIKE, UM, THOUGH THAT THE ONE ADVANTAGE OF WAITING FOR THE BUILDERS IS BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN, AT LEAST ON ONE OCCASION WHERE THE BUILDERS HEARING THE PUBLIC INPUT HAVE THEN PUT TOGETHER DIFFERENT SORT OF OFFERS OR TWEAKED THEIR OWN VISION.
[01:35:01]
ADVANTAGEOUS TO HAVE 'EM ON DIFFERENT EVENINGS, UM, JUST SO THEY CAN HEAR WHAT THE PUBLIC HAS TO SAY AND RESPOND TO IT.OH, I WAS JUST GONNA, TINA WAS JUST UM, GONNA ADD THAT WE'RE GONNA HAVE A LONG MEETING IN JANUARY ANYWAY 'CAUSE WE GOT PROBABLY FIVE OTHER PUBLIC HEARINGS STILL
I KNOW THAT'S NOT HELPING, BUT I JUST WANTED YOU TO BE AWARE THAT'S OKAY.
UM, SEE TO ME THAT, THAT WOULD SUGGEST WE SHOULD PROBABLY ONLY DO ONE OF THESE, BUT THAT'S ME, GEORGE.
WHICH ONE? I, THE WHOLE CAR BEFORE THE HORSE THING GOT ME ALL CONFUSED.
WELL, THIS IS AN ILLEGAL OPINION.
NO, I, I SO THIS, SO WE NEED TO BE, IT OCCURRED TO ME THAT THIS RUNNING IN TANDEM IS A LITTLE AWKWARD.
THAT'S NOT A LEGAL OPINION, IT'S JUST, YEAH, I THINK IT'S AWKWARD.
SO WE'LL DO THE TEXT AMENDMENT, THEN IT'S PUBLIC HEARING ON THE, UH, 27TH JANUARY ONE AND THEN WE CAN DO C AND THE FEBRUARY MEETING.
UM, ANYBODY HAVE ANY OTHER THOUGHTS ON THAT OR ANYTHING YOU NEED TO SAY TO THE BUILDERS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT? OR THE APPLICANT? SORRY, NOT THE
UM, ALRIGHT, THANK YOU LAUREN.
UM, SO THE REAPPOINTMENT TO THE ACES, UM, IS, YOU KNOW, UM, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, IT IT, NOT TO USE THE WRONG TERMINOLOGY, BUT TO ME THIS IS JUST A, JUST A NO BRAINER.
UM, SO JUSTIN, WHICH EVERYBODY HERE MET GLEN'S PROBABLY MET HIM TOO, BUT HE CAME JUSTIN PROCTER.
YEAH, HE, HE CAME AND SPOKE TO COUNSEL WHEN WE WANTED TO CHANGE THE NAMES.
UM, I KNOW THAT LAST THURSDAY WE WERE INVITED.
I KNOW I, I WENT LAST THURSDAY.
THERE WAS LIKE A RECEPTION FOR UM, ACES.
PEOPLE WERE THERE AND THE ANTI LITRE PEOPLE WERE THERE AND THEY DID LIKE A DINNER AND THANKED ALL THE VOLUNTEERS AND STUFF AND HAD THIS BIG DISPLAY AND STUFF.
AND THERE WAS JUST A WHOLE LOT OF TALK ABOUT ALL THE POSITIVE THINGS THAT HAVE GONE ON, UM, WITH NOT JUST THIS COMMITTEE BUT THE WORKING TOGETHER WITH OTHER THINGS.
MULTIPLE PEOPLE WHO SPOKE, TALKED ABOUT HOW JUSTIN WAS JUST, I WOULD CALL HIM THE REAL DEAL.
HE, HE DOESN'T JUST TALK THE TALK, HE WALKS THE WALK AND IF WE ARE EVEN HALFWAY LUCKY TO GET HIM TO SIGN ON FOR ANOTHER FOUR YEARS, I'LL BE HAPPY.
'CAUSE I WASN'T SURE HE WANTED TO DO FOUR YEARS.
UH, UH, BUT MAYBE HE'S WILLING TO TAKE THE APPOINTMENT AND HOPEFULLY HE MAKES IT FOUR YEARS, RIGHT JOE? CORRECT.
YEAH, I WOULD BE SAD IF WE DID SO I'M GLAD.
UM, THAT TAKES US TO THE LAST ITEM, WHICH IS, UM, CLOSED MEETING.
AND IF HOW MANY ON COUNCIL WOULD BE DO, I'LL ENTERTAIN A MOTION, I MOVE THAT TOWN COUNCIL CONVENE A CLOSED MEETING PURSUANT TO SECTION 2.2 DASH 37 11 AND 2.2 DASH 37 12 IN THE CODE OF VIRGINIA FOR THE FOLLOWING PURPOSES, PURSUANT TO SECTION 2.2 DASH 37 11 A SEVEN, THE CODE OF VIRGINIA FOR THE CONSULTATION WITH LEGAL COUNSEL IN BRIEFINGS BY STAFF MEMBERS OR CONSULTANTS PERTAINING TO ACTUAL LITIGATION WHERE SUCH CONSULT, CONSULTATION, OR BRIEFING AN OPEN MEETING WOULD ADVERSELY AFFECT THE NEGOTIATING OR LITIGATING POSTURE OF THE PUBLIC BODY.
MORE SPECIFICALLY HAVE HAD LLC VERSUS TOWN COUNSEL.
AND TWO, PURSUANT TO SECTION 2.2 DASH 37 11, A EIGHT OF THE CODE OF VIRGINIA FOR CONSULTATION WITH LEGAL COUNSEL EMPLOYED OR RETAINED BY A PUBLIC BODY REGARDING SPECIFIC LEGAL MATTERS REQUIRING REVISION OF LEGAL ADVICE BY SUCH COUNSEL.
MORE SPECIFICALLY, A REQUEST FROM HEP LLC, SECOND VICE MAYOR
OKAY, WE'RE GONNA GO IN, I CAN CLOSE AND WE ARE, ANYBODY NEEDS TO.