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READY? MM-HMM.[Planning and Zoning Work Session on June 7, 2023.]
SO AT THIS TIME, I'LL CALL TO ORDER THE SPECIAL FOR OUR, UH, EXCUSE ME, OUR PLANNING COMMISSION WORK SESSION ON WEDNESDAY, JUNE THE SEVENTH, 2023 AT APPROXIMATELY 6 0 8.THE, UH, UH, AGAIN, MS. POTTERS, YOU DO A ROLL CALL FOR ATTENDANCE, PLEASE.
VICE CHAIRMAN WELLS IS ABSENT.
WE MAY CONTINUE WITH THE, UH, WORK ONLY, UH, ADVERTISED ITEM TONIGHT IS A REZONING APPLICATION NUMBER 23 2 25 FROM RAMSEY INC.
UH, STAFF, IF YOU WOULD BE SO KIND TO, UH, UH, BRING US UP TO SPEED ON THIS APPLICATION.
UH, REZONING APPLICATION 23 2 25 IS FOR, UH, REQUEST TO REZONE A 1.2 3 2 8 3 7 ACRE PARCEL, UH, THAT IS ZONED CURRENTLY, UH, C3 HIGHWAY CORRIDOR BUSINESS DISTRICT R TWO RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT.
THE PROPERTY IS IDENTIFIED ON TAX MAP 20 A 24 DASH ONE DASH SEVEN.
UH, THERE'S AN APPLICATION APPROVED, UH, FOR, UH, THE SUBJECT PROPERTY FOR LODGING HOUSE IN, UH, OCTOBER, 2022.
UH, THAT LODGING HOUSE, UH, WAS APPROVED WITH A PROPOSED HOUSE LOCATION SURVEY THAT MET ALL THE CONDITIONS, UH, STATED IN A TOWN CODE, UH, WAS APPROVED AND IT'S UNDER CONSTRUCTION.
THE APPLICANT NOW WOULD LIKE TO REZONE THAT PROPERTY FROM C3 TO C UH, TO R TWO.
AND DURING THE, UH, PART OF THE REZONING, UH, WE DID FIND SOME ISSUES, UH, WITH THE SAID PARCEL.
UH, THE PROPOSED HOUSE LOCATION SURVEY THAT WAS SUBMITTED AS IT LISTED AS LOT SEVEN AND ALSO LISTED AS PARCEL SEVEN ON THE, UH, SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION.
AND IT ALSO LISTED A RITE OF INGRESS AND EGRESS, UH, THAT WE BELIEVED WAS ACCESS TO THE PARCEL.
UH, DOING SOME MORE RESEARCH INTO IT.
WE FOUND THAT THE 1.2837 ACRE PIECE OF PROPERTY IS NOT ITS OWN LOT.
IT IS A, IT IS, UH, ZONED WITH A TAX MAP FOR TAX PURPOSES, BUT IT IS PART OF A LARGER 50 ACRE TRACT THAT SITUATES IN THE COUNTY.
THE RIOT OF INGRESS AND EGRESS IS NOTED ON THE, UH, SUBMITTED PLAT, UH, WE BELIEVE DOES NOT, UM, GIVE INGRESS OR EGRESS TO THAT PIECE OF PROPERTY.
AND THAT IS, UH, TO ANOTHER PIECE OF PROPERTY.
UM, THAT IS WHAT WE DISCOVERED, UH, DURING LOOKING AT THE APPLICATION FOR THE REZONING.
YOU SHOULD HAVE THE PLAT, UH, THAT THEY SUBMITTED IN YOUR PACKAGE.
AND I ONLY ONE HAS A PLA WELL, I SENT OUT IT TO EVERYBODY.
I DON'T TYPICALLY DO HARD COPIES ANYMORE, SO IT IS IN WHAT I SENT HAVE ONLINE.
I LOOK, I THE APPLICANTS HERE.
CAN I ASK JOHN A QUESTION? SHOULD I WAIT, WILLIAMS? YES.
SO I'M GONNA GONNA PASS THE TEST HERE.
SO PART OF THIS 58 PLUS ACRE PLOT IS IN THE COUNTY AND PART OF IT'S IN TOWN.
THE 1.28 ACRE PIECE IS ACTUALLY IN THE TOWN LIMITS.
THE REMAINING PORTION OF THE PROPERTY, WHICH IS 50 ACRES, UH, IS ACTUALLY LOCATED IN WARREN COUNTY.
UH, THERE IS A LINE DRAWN THERE.
UH, BUT THAT JUST REALLY E MARKS THE BOUNDARY LINE BETWEEN THE COUNTY AND THE TOWN AND NOT A PARCEL PROPERTY LINE.
SO THEN MY QUESTION WOULD BE, WOULD THE PROPER PROCESS BE TO, TO ASK, I I, I DON'T KNOW IF MY WORDING IS CORRECT, TO, TO SEPARATE THE PART THAT'S IN, THAT'S IN THE TOWN AND ASK FOR THAT TO BE ITS OWN, UH, OWN PIECE OF PROPERTY APART FROM THE COUNTY SUBDIVIDED ON SUBDIVIDED.
WOULD THAT BE THE PROPER WAY OF GOING ABOUT THAT FIRST OR NOT? I, I DON'T KNOW.
I, THE, THE APPLICANT IS HERE TONIGHT, MR. CHRIS RAMSEY.
UH, PERHAPS HE CAN ENLIGHTEN US ON THOSE, UH, ISSUES IF
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YOU WOULD LIKE TO HEAR ANY SPEAK.CHRIS, WOULD YOU LIKE TO SAY SOMETHING ON YOUR PROJECT THERE? MM-HMM.
THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY AND THE INVITATION TO BE HERE TO ADDRESS, AND I'M HERE TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS THAT, UH, WOULD HAVE THE EXPERTISE TO AN ANSWER OR SEEK ANSWERS WE'RE THEY BE BECOME VOID.
UH, BASICALLY IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT A PROPERTY CAN'T BE, UH, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU DRAW THE LINE ACROSS IT, IT'S EITHER IN TOWN OR IT'S IN THE COUNTY.
SO YOU'VE CREATED THE LOT WHEN YOU VAN THE PROPERTY INTO TOWN.
CAUSE THERE'S THREE OR FOUR PARCELS OUT THERE THAT I OWN THAT ARE ALL UNDER THAT SAME CONDITION.
AND I'M PAYING DOUBLE TAXES ON THAT PIECE OF PROPERTY AND I CAN'T GO TO THE COUNTY AND APPLY FOR DEADLY SQUAD.
AND WE HAD ANOTHER SITUATION WHERE THAT HAPPENED ALSO OUT ON HAPPY CREEK ROAD, WHERE IT WAS IDENTIFIED BY VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THE TOWN HAD DRAWN THE LINE IN THAT, IN THE ANNEXATION SITUATION WHERE, WHERE, YOU KNOW, THAT'S KIND OF A, AN ODDITY THAT YOU HAD, UH, IDENTIFIED THAT PROPERTY AS BEING ONLY COUNTY AND THEN TURN AROUND TAKING JURISDICTION AS TOWN AND SAYING THAT YOU DIDN'T DRAW A LINE ACROSS AND SUB ABOUT IT CUZ YOU DID.
CUZ IT HAS ITS OWN PARCEL NUMBER.
OTHERWISE IT WOULD NOT HAVE ITS OWN PARCEL NUMBER.
IT COULDN'T HAVE ITS OWN PARCEL NUMBER.
SO AM I ALLOWED TO ASK QUESTIONS? YES.
SO ARE YOU BEING CHARGED TAXES FROM FRONT ROW ON THE 50 PLUS ACRES OR ON THE ONE POINT ACRE PARCEL? THE ONE POINT THERE'S THREE PARCELS LIKE THAT THERE.
THE SMALL PARCEL NOT PART OF THE BIG NO, THE BIG IS COUNTY ONLY.
OKAY, BUT YOU'RE BEING CHARGED TAXES? YES, I AM.
I'M PAYING, I'M PAYING TOWN TAXES ON THAT, ON THIS PIECE OF PROPERTY.
SO IT'S BEEN, IT IS BEEN SUB-DIVIDED BY VIRTUE OF FOUNDER LINE ADJUSTMENT WITH THE, WITH THE, UH, COUNTY YEARS AGO.
AND I THINK ANY JUDGE WOULD, WOULD KIND OF DECIDE WITH THAT BECAUSE YOU CAN'T BE ON, ON ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER.
I MEAN, YOU'RE EITHER ON ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER.
YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T THEN THE COUNTY HAS NO JURISDICTION OVER THIS PIECE OF PROPERTY PERIOD.
WHEN IT COMES TO LAND USE ZONING OR ANYTHING OF THE SORT.
YOU, YOU HAVE, SO CONTROL OVER.
AS FAR AS THE, OKAY, SO YOU'RE, YOU'RE, YOU'RE SAYING, JUST, LET ME SEE IF I GET IT STRAIGHT HERE, THAT BY VIRTUE OF THE TOWN, UM, THE TOWN BOUNDARY RUNNING THROUGH YOUR PROPERTY, THAT, THAT SUBDIVIDES THE PROPERTY? YES, BECAUSE I CANNOT APPLY TO THE COUNTY FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN A BUILDING PERMIT.
UH, I CAN ONLY APPLY TO THE TOWN FOR PURPOSES OF DEVELOPMENT UTILIZATION, UH, CONFORMITY TO ZONING, WATER, SEWER, ALL THAT.
UH, ANY OTHER QUESTION ON THE, ON THE PROPERTY LINE? OKAY, UH, I HAVE A QUESTION ON THE ACCESS.
UM, YOU SHOW A RIGHT OF ACCESS, A RIGHT OF INGRESS AND EGRESS.
UM, IS THAT ADEQUATE ROAD FRONT? IS THAT ACTUALLY THIS, THIS PARCEL SEVEN DOES NOT FRONT ON 3 45 22.
IF FRONT'S ON A TOWN RIGHT AWAY, UH, NOW I READ I DIDN'T DRAW THAT PLANT.
MR. BROGAN DID UHHUH
AND, AND FOR AND YOU'RE A SURVEYOR.
AND SO YOU ALL WILL HAVE TO FIGURE THAT OUT.
I I WOULD NOT HAVE ANY SIGNIFICANT KNOWLEDGE OR COMMENT TO ADD TO OR TAKE AWAY FROM YOUR ALL'S EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEDGE RELATIVE TO HOW THAT WORKS.
UM, AND THE REASON YOU WANT TO DO IT FOR RESIDENTIAL, WHAT WAS THE REASON STATED HERE? I WANT TO BUILD A, A HOUSE ON IT, WHICH MEETS THE NEEDS OF A SPECIAL NEEDS STEPSON OF MINE.
HE IS UNDER MY CHARGE AND MAINTENANCE MY WIFE AND I'S CHARGE IN MAINTENANCE.
HE IS NOT ABLE, HE'S BEEN UNDER THE CARE OF NORTHWESTERN COMMUNITY SERVICES FOR 30 YEARS.
IS THIS, IS THIS IN ADDITION TO THE HOUSE THAT'S CURRENTLY BEING BUILT THERE? NO, THIS IS THE HOUSE THAT'S BEING BUILT THERE.
I INTEND TO HOUSE HIM ON THE LOWER LEVEL.
THE, THE PURPOSE OF THE REZONING WOULD ALLOW ME TO FINISH THE SECOND LEVEL.
SO IT'S, WELL IT'S FULLY SEPARATE, WOULD ALLOW ME TO APPLY FOR A PERMIT TO HAVE A TWO FAMILY UNDIVIDED RESIDENTIAL STRUCTURE.
RIGHT NOW, I'M ONLY, UH, ABLE TO FINISH THE LOWER LEVEL OF THIS STRUCTURE, WHICH LENDS ITSELF TO HAVING TWO LEVELS FINISHED, IN WHICH CASE I COULD RENT THE
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OTHER PART OUT TO SUBSIDIZE HIS CARE AND WELFARE.SO THE FIRST FLOOR WOULD BE FOR HIM? CORRECT.
NOW A CAREGIVER, NO, HE DOESN'T REQUIRE A CAREGIVER AT THIS TIME.
HE IS INDEPENDENT, BUT IT, IT, HE'S UM, I I'LL SAY HE, HE SUFFERS FROM PARANOIA, SCHIZOPHRENIA.
AND HE'S BEEN IN, HE'S BEEN IN THE CARE OF NORTHWESTERN COMMUNITY SERVICES THAT ADMINISTERS HIS, HIS MEDICINES AND WELL CARE AND WELLBEING OR HEALTH TO MAINTAIN HIM.
BUT THEY DO NOT TAKE CARE OF HIS PHYSICAL NEEDS.
THEY TAKE CARE OF HIS MENTAL AND, AND MEDICAL NEEDS, BUT NOT HIS PHYSICAL NEEDS AND HIS FALL INTO HIS MOTHER AND I TO TAKE CARE OF THAT.
AND WITHOUT OUR, WITHOUT US, HE WOULD BE ON THE STREET.
AND SO THIS WAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO PRESENTED ITSELF ON A PIECE OF PROPERTY THAT I OWNED TO CREATE A HOUSING SITUATION IN A, IN A, IN AN AREA WHERE IT'S, HE'S EASILY ACCESSIBLE FOR US TO TAKE CARE OF, TO PICK HIM UP, TAKE HIM TO DOCTOR'S APPOINTMENTS, GET HIS, UH, UH, GROCERIES IF YOU WILL, AND THAT TYPE OF THING.
ALTHOUGH HE HAS NO INCOME, WE ACTUALLY SUBSIDIZE THAT AS WELL.
AND BY RIGHT, YOU CAN BUILD THE, WE CAN BUILD THE LODGING HOUSE BY RIGHT.
AND, UH, YOU KNOW, I, I PRESENTED MY IDEA TO JOE BROGAN.
HE LOOKED AT IT AND SAID, SURE, I THINK WE CAN MAKE THIS WORK.
AND SO WITH SETBACKS AND ALL THAT, WHICH WE'VE MET THE SETBACKS AND, AND WE HAVE A WALL CHECK WHICH CERTIFIES IT.
WE'VE DONE ACCORDING TO WHAT WE'VE PAID OUR WATER AND SEWER FEES TO THE, TO THE PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT.
SO WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, THAT'S ALL IN LINE.
AND WE'VE ALSO PAID OUR FEES TO, UH, RAPPAHANNOCK ELECTRIC.
SO ALL THE UTILITIES ARE SPOKEN FOR, APPROVED AND PAID FOR AT THIS TIME.
AND IT'D BE TWO SETS, TWO SETS OF UTILITIES? TWO, NO, IT IS UNDIVIDED WHEN YOU GO TO R TWO.
TWO FAMILY UNDIVIDED, WHICH MEANS YOU ONLY GET ONE WATER METER, YOU ONLY GET ONE ELECTRIC METER FOR THE, FOR THE WHOLE HOUSE.
YEAH, IT'S A, IT'S AN UNDIVIDED, IT'S UH, IT'S NOT A DUPLEX.
THE DUPLEX WOULD REQUIRE LIKE THAT SUBDIVISION.
SO EACH UNIT IS ON ITS OWN SEPARATE LOT.
AND THE CODE ALLOWS FOR, UH, TWO FAMILY UNDIVIDED UNIT UNDER R TWO.
SO THAT'S WHY WE WENT TO R TWO CUZ IT, UH, FOSTERED WHAT WE WERE DOING.
SO IT'S NOT AN ISSUE WHETHER WE'RE GONNA BUILD OR PROPOSE A HOUSE.
YOU KNOW, WE, THEY PUT THE TRUSSES AND SHEETED THE ROOF TODAY.
SO WE'RE MOVING FORWARD ON IT TO GET HIM INTO THE HOUSE AS QUICKLY AS WE CAN.
HE'S LIVING IN A BASEMENT IN A RENTAL HOUSE RIGHT NOW.
ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR MR. RA? CHRIS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
IF YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER IN YOUR DISCUSSION, ALL NEEDS TO ASK.
I'M HAPPY TO STAY, GIVE YOU WHAT I HAVE.
UM, STAFF, I, I'M, I DON'T PARTICULARLY AGREE WITH MR. RAMSEY'S ASSUMPTION THAT THE COUNTY BOUNDARY SUBDIVIDE PROPERTY, CAN WE GET A RULING ON THAT BEFORE THE JUNE MEETING? I'LL BE HAPPY TO LOOK AT THAT ISSUE.
WHAT'S THAT? I'LL BE HAPPY TO LOOK AT THAT.
AND I THINK COROLLA, A COROLLARY ISSUE WOULD BE, DOES A BOUNDARY ADJUSTMENT ALSO CHANGE THE ZONING? CORRECT.
AND THEN THE SECOND ITEM WOULD BE THE, THE RIGHT OF INGRESS AND EGRESS, OBVIOUSLY THAT DEED INDICATES HE DOES HAVE THE RIGHT FOR INGRESS AND EGRESS IS, BUT THIS IS THAT SATISFY THE ORDINANCE FOR CREATING A LOT ON NOT ON A PUBLIC STREET.
IF, IF YOU COULD RESEARCH THAT AND LET US KNOW WHAT THE PARAMETERS ARE OF THAT.
CAUSE AGAIN, IT, THIS DOESN'T HAVE ROAD FROM US ON THE WINCHESTER ROAD ROUTE THREE 40.
IT'S JUST, THERE'S JUST A, A RIGHT OF INGRESS AND EGRESS THE PREVIOUS OWNER RETAINED TO GET TO HIS PROPERTY ON THE BOTTOM.
UH, THERE'S NO WIDTH OF IT, THERE'S NO MAINTENANCE AGREEMENT.
I MEAN, WHO, WHO'S GONNA MAINTAIN IT? THERE'S OBVIOUSLY NO CURB AND GUNNER.
UM, UH, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF ISSUES THAT I WOULD LIKE TO GET SOME ANSWERS FROM IF WE CAN.
NOW WE HAVE TENTATIVELY SCHEDULED THIS FOR OUR PUBLIC HEARING, UH, AT OUR REC NEXT REGULAR MEETING YES.
UM, SO DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE THESE ANSWERS READY? I'LL DO MY BEST AT THE END.
BECAUSE THE QUESTION OF THE PROPERTY LINE IS A SERIOUS ISSUE.
I MEAN, THIS IS KIND OF PRESENTED AS A SEPARATE LOT, BUT IT DOES SHOW A SETBACK.
UH, THERE AT THE, WE, WE, WE HAVE MULTIPLE LOTS THAT THE TOWN
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BOUNDARY RUNS THROUGH THAT DOESN'T SUBDIVIDE IT UNTIL YOU JUST HAVE DIFFERENT ZONING.YOU HAVE COUNTIES ZONING ON ONE SIDE AND, YOU KNOW, UH, MULTIPLE ZONINGS ON THE SAME PARCEL.
SO, UM, SO I, I THINK THAT WOULD BE AN IMPORTANT THING TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT BETWEEN NOW AND THE PUBLIC AREA.
AND, UH, EVERYTHING THAT ROUNDED IS ZONED COMMERCIAL IN THE TOWN, CORRECT? YES.
C3, THAT'S ALL HIGHWAY ON THE CORRIDOR YEAH.
AND HE'S ASKING TO GO FROM THE C3 TO THE R TWO DISTRICT? CORRECT.
WHICH DOES ALLOW A MATTER OF RIGHT.
A TWO FAMILY DWELLING ACCORDING TO OUR CODE.
THAT'S ONE CAN BE SIDE BY SIDE OR ONE ABOVE THE OTHER WITH NO DIVIDING PROPERTY LINE.
I, I, AGAIN, I JUST WORRY ABOUT THAT PROPERTY LINE AND THE RIGHT OF WAY AND STUFF LIKE, I MEAN, UM, I, I ASSUME THE SITE DISTANCES OKAY.
AND STUFF THERE FOR, YOU KNOW, CAUSE THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A RESIDENTIAL USE OF THAT INGRESS EGRESS AND THE USE WE DO IT FOR, FOR THE PUMP STATION MAINTENANCE.
YOU KNOW, WE MAY GO DOWN THERE ONCE A WEEK, YOU KNOW, AT BEST.
UH, WHEREAS AT RESIDENTIAL YOU MAY BE MORE FREQUENTLY COMING IN AND OUT OF THAT.
UM, I DON'T KNOW HOW, UH, YOU KNOW, DDO WOULD APPEAL ABOUT OVERBURDENING THAT, THAT, UH, ACCESS.
BUT IF YOU CAN FIND OUT SOME INFORMATION ON THAT.
IS THAT OKAY WITH EVERYBODY? YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS OF STAFF OR THE APPLICANT? THANK YOU.
SO WE'LL, WE'LL FORGE AHEAD WITH THIS UNLESS WE FIND OUT THERE IS A SITUATION WITH THE PROPERTY LINE OR INGRESS EGRESS AND WE MAY HAVE TO POSTPONE THE PUBLIC HEARING UNTIL A TIME WHEN THOSE QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED.
AND ANY STAFF HAVE ANY ADDITIONAL COMMENTS ON IT? OKAY.
OUR WORK SESSION BUSINESS, THAT IS THE ONLY ITEM WE HAVE.
UH, IF YOU HAVE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS, CONTACT STAFF THAT'D BE HAPPY TO HELP YOU.
ANY OTHER COMMENTS FROM ANY MEMBERS? MR. WILLIAMS? YOU'RE LOOKING AWFUL THOUGHTFUL OVER THERE TONIGHT.
ALL THOSE TO ADJOURN SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE.
WE ARE ADJOURNED AT 6:25 PM THANK YOU, SIR DARRELL? YES, SIR.